Sam could still turn it around... these QB's did after early struggles ~ ~ ~

[elvispookie]

41 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

Becton largely plays a 1v1 position. We can see easily whether he beat the guy across from him... or got beat.

Quarterback is entirely different. 

Stop expecting a chef to make sh*t into filet mignon. 

There has never been an NFL offense that I can think of that had this little talent. For three goddam years! 

And Sam is a part of that! If he was "franchise" he would lift up the other receivers.. make his line look better with faster reads.. receivers would have better stats.. running game more room.  So then the knee jerk reaction is no one is open.  Well franchise qbs still get that ball in there.. hit the timing perfect.  Is it Michael Thomas or Drew Brees? who makes who better? it could be both.. and thus they look amazing.  It could be one.. in my example we know Brees already delivers as a QB.. so maybe Thomas is just feeding off of him.  It could also be they both suck - as is our case. We don't have the WR's because no one lifted up Sam.. but on the other hand... we dont have a QB because Sam didnt lift anyone.  Just my opinion.  

[jgb]

Just now, elvispookie said:

And Sam is a part of that! If he was "franchise" he would lift up the other receivers.. make his line look better with faster reads.. receivers would have better stats.. running game more room.  So then the knee jerk reaction is no one is open.  Well franchise qbs still get that ball in there.. hit the timing perfect.  Is it Michael Thomas or Drew Brees? who makes who better? it could be both.. and thus they look amazing.  It could be one.. in my example we know Brees already delivers as a QB.. so maybe Thomas is just feeding off of him.  It could also be they both suck - as is our case. We don't have the WR's because no one lifted up Sam.. but on the other hand... we dont have a QB because Sam didnt lift anyone.  Just my opinion.  

FQBs make their own weaponinz, not the other way around.

[RedBeardedSavage]

3 minutes ago, elvispookie said:

And Sam is a part of that! If he was "franchise" he would lift up the other receivers.. make his line look better with faster reads.. receivers would have better stats.. running game more room.  So then the knee jerk reaction is no one is open.  Well franchise qbs still get that ball in there.. hit the timing perfect.  Is it Michael Thomas or Drew Brees? who makes who better? it could be both.. and thus they look amazing.  It could be one.. in my example we know Brees already delivers as a QB.. so maybe Thomas is just feeding off of him.  It could also be they both suck - as is our case. We don't have the WR's because no one lifted up Sam.. but on the other hand... we dont have a QB because Sam didnt lift anyone.  Just my opinion.  

You want to compare the Saints roster on offense to ours? Respectfully, I think that proves my point. 

[Biggs]

1 minute ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

Eli did have a knack for making some incredible throws. 

My point isn't that Sam is as good as Eli. I'm not even saying we have to keep Sam. 

I'm saying we need to add more talent before we can give anyone even a fair shake at that position. 

That's a given no matter who the QB is.  The one thing the Giants did with Eli.  They made a huge move to get him.  Loved him and built a SB team around him.  

No question they loved Eli, spent big to get him and were confident enough to put a very solid team around him.  The Jets didn't really go all in on Sam, he fell to us and we didn't show the kind of commitment to put the rest of the pieces around him.  Sam may not even have been our first choice in that draft.  He certainly didn't create a buzz with the GM to build around him.  

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

You want to compare the Saints roster on offense to ours? Respectfully, I think that proves my point. 

Explain why disinterested, 35-year old Joe Flacco looked more competent than Sam Darnold in the same set of circumstances.

[jgb]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

Explain why disinterested, 35-year old Joe Flacco looked more competent than Sam Darnold in the same set of circumstances.

-Cause Gase couldn't ruin Flacco since he was already a finished product.

-Cause opposing defenses didn't fear Flacco and sold out to stop Gore

-Cause the Moon was in the 7th house and Jupiter was aligned with Mars

-Cause feelings

-Cause weapoinz

How many of these you need?

[ZachEY]

44 minutes ago, jgb said:

Yes but if Jets are going QB in draft, why keep him? Better to trade for best offer this off-season when we at least get something.

Plus, I just read a blog from a Jet Nation Dot Com writer that as many as 10 respected franchises may be sending offers for Darnold our way.  Could be worth more than trading out of 2.

[RedBeardedSavage]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Explain why disinterested, 35-year old Joe Flacco looked more competent than Sam Darnold in the same set of circumstances.

Are we really excited about his play in any of those four losses?

Weren't we all joking about that NE game too, that the Pats were purposefully trying to throw the game?

That's two blowouts, getting outdueled by a rookie quarterback that got sacked three times, and the Belichick 'Darth Sidious' game. 

Hell if our quarterback was Joe Flacco the past three years, we'd still be picking in the top 3 and I'd still be saying our offensive line, runningbacks and receivers suck. 

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, RedBeardedSavage said:

Are we really excited about his play in any of those four losses?

Weren't we all joking about that NE game too, that the Pats were purposefully trying to throw the game?

That's two blowouts, getting outdueled by a rookie quarterback that got sacked three times, and the Belichick 'Darth Sidious' game. 

Hell if our quarterback was Joe Flacco the past three years, we'd still be picking in the top 3 and I'd still be saying our offensive line, runningbacks and receivers suck. 

 

Excited?  No.

Better than Darnold?  Absolutely.  And that's pathetic.  Flacco visibly looked unhappy to be forced into action, and seemingly had one foot in retirement all season.

[jgb]

Just now, TeddEY said:

Plus, I just read a blog from a Jet Nation writer that as many as 10 respected franchises may be sending offers for Darnold our way.  Could be worth more than trading out of 2.

I thought NFL Europe was defunct

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

I thought NFL Europe was defunct

AAF? Nope.

Maybe the CFL?

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

Stop expecting a chef to make sh*t into filet mignon. 

No one is expecting to eat filet mignon tonight.  But, a great chef could make something edible out of canned goods on a dorm room hot plate.

[RedBeardedSavage]

Just now, TeddEY said:

No one is expecting to eat filet mignon tonight.  But, a great chef could make something edible out of canned goods on a dorm room hot plate.

Well, by beating two playoff teams at the end of a meaningless season, we just missed out on that 'great chef' and now all of you are happy to settle for Guy Fieri instead of purchasing better ingredients. 

[FidelioJet]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

We wouldn't have only already picked up his 5th year option, GM Macc would've already extended him and HC Bowles would be talking about needing to shore up the defense in the upcoming draft.

He got progressively worse with his three years under Gase. 

When we're talking about Sam's potential or trade value it has to start with understanding his HC/OC/QBC...

 

[nyjbuddy]

Now its clear why they brought in Frank Gore.  Played with Alex Smith in SF, played with Tannehill in Miami, played with Allen in Buffalo.  Gore is the true QB whisperer! 

With the Post-Gase effect and Frank Gore QB Whisperer, Darnold's career is going to take off.

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

Well, by beating two playoff teams at the end of a meaningless season, we just missed out on that 'great chef' and now all of you are happy to settle for Guy Fieri instead of purchasing better ingredients. 

Fields would be the # 1 pick in most draft classes.  We also have tons of picks and cap dollars.  We can get a better chef AND plenty of quality ingredients, simultaneously.  It isn't an either/or situation.

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

He got progressively worse with his three years under Gase. 

When we're talking about Sam's potential or trade value it has to start with understanding his HC/OC/QBC...

 

Well first, he only played 2 years during Gase's tenure.

Second, no doubt he was "worse" but still light years better than Darnold.

And by the way -- what was Tannehill traded for? He had 1 year left on his deal at the time. Same as Darnold.

[ZachEY]

5 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

Well, by beating two playoff teams at the end of a meaningless season, we just missed out on that 'great chef' and now all of you are happy to settle for Guy Fieri instead of purchasing better ingredients. 

First, watch this:

Second - In this analogy, I'd draft Fieri over sticking with Mary Mallon.

[RedBeardedSavage]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Fields would be the # 1 pick in most draft classes.  We also have tons of picks and cap dollars.  We can get a better chef AND plenty of quality ingredients, simultaneously.  It isn't an either/or situation.

Fields is cookin' with truffle butter @ Ohio State and I'd rather draft his offensive lineman/receivers than him. There will be guys like Fields most years, and next year we've got two firsts. 

Ja Marr Chase? Penei Sewell? Maybe move down for a different receiver and acquire picks in the process? I think all of these are superior routes in the long run. 

And I'm skeptical about free agency... a lot of people are talking about either Godwin, Robinson or Galloday and  either Thuney or Scherff... if that happens, I'll reconsider my position. But if it doesn't... and we've got another Van Roten crop of free agents... 

[FidelioJet]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

Well first, he only played 2 years during Gase's tenure.

Second, no doubt he was "worse" but still light years better than Darnold.

And by the way -- what was Tannehill traded for? He had 1 year left on his deal at the time. Same as Darnold.

eh.

He was already 32 years old.  Coming off injuries.

[kelly]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

Ever try to pour a foundation in a swamp?

no.  

i never will   ?..

...however, i would  FIRST ---> drain the swamp and then pour/build a foundation  ?

cheers ~ ~ 

  

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

Fields is cookin' with truffle butter @ Ohio State and I'd rather draft his offensive lineman/receivers than him. There will be guys like Fields most years, and next year we've got two firsts. 

Ja Marr Chase? Penei Sewell? Maybe move down for a different receiver and acquire picks in the process? I think all of these are superior routes in the long run. 

And I'm skeptical about free agency... a lot of people are talking about either Godwin, Robinson or Galloday and  either Thuney or Scherff... if that happens, I'll reconsider my position. But if it doesn't... and we've got another Van Roten crop of free agents... 

 

Deshaun Watson played with loaded rosters at Clemson.  As did Joe Burrow at LSU.  As does Trevor Lawrence.  That part shouldn't bother people.  If you're playing at a big-time program, your roster is going to be loaded.  Plenty of top QB prospects have had success in the pros despite having this advantage in college.

[jgb]

6 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

eh.

He was already 32 years old.  Coming off injuries.

Right compared to Iron Man Sam.

Also, the trade is for one year. Age not that relevant. And again: Tannehill was objectively much, much better.

[jgb]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Deshaun Watson played with loaded rosters at Clemson.  As does Trevor Lawrence.  That part shouldn't bother people.  If you're playing at a big-time program, your roster is going to be loaded.  Plenty of top QB prospects have had success in the pros despite having this advantage in college.

It's just desperate scrambling to prop up Sam. If every bad QB on a bad team must secretly be good, then the converse must also be true since only supporting cast matters.

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, kelly said:

no.  

i never will   ?..

...however, i would  FIRST ---> drain the swamp and then pour/build a foundation  ?

cheers ~ ~ 

  

Cheaper to move away from the swamp.

[RedBeardedSavage]

7 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Deshaun Watson played with loaded rosters at Clemson.  As did Joe Burrow at LSU.  As does Trevor Lawrence.  That part shouldn't bother people.  If you're playing at a big-time program, your roster is going to be loaded.  Plenty of top QB prospects have had success in the pros despite having this advantage in college.

All three of those prospects have/had excellent collegiate rosters around them. Can't deny that.

So did Matt Leinart, AJ McCarron, Ken Dorsey, Dwayne Haskins.

I agree it's in the eye of the beholder to some degree. I respect Fields, I think he's got tons of grit, but I think he's more likely to be in the group of quarterbacks I've mentioned than the ones you did. 

Of course I could be wrong about that. But what I'm absolutely sure of - is that our offensive line, receivers, tight ends, and runningbacks suck. And I can't expect anyone to succeed here while that's still the case. 

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, RedBeardedSavage said:

All three of those prospects have/had excellent collegiate rosters around them. Can't deny that.

So did Matt Leinart, AJ McCarron, Ken Dorsey, Dwayne Haskins.

I agree it's in the eye of the beholder to some degree. I respect Fields, I think he's got tons of grit, but I think he's more likely to be in the group of quarterbacks I've mentioned than the ones you did. 

Of course I could be wrong about that. But what I'm absolutely sure of, is that our offensive line, receivers, tight ends, and runningbacks suck. And I can't expect anyone to succeed here while that's still the case. 

Well luckily we have a lot of picks and cap dollars to address this.  And our WRs really aren't that bad.  Denzel Mims is going to be a star, and Crowder is more than serviceable.  

[jgb]

1 minute ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

All three of those prospects have/had excellent collegiate rosters around them. Can't deny that.

So did Matt Leinart, AJ McCarron, Ken Dorsey, Dwayne Haskins.

I agree it's in the eye of the beholder to some degree. I respect Fields, I think he's got tons of grit, but I think he's more likely to be in the group of quarterbacks I've mentioned than the ones you did. 

Of course I could be wrong about that. But what I'm absolutely sure of, is that our offensive line, receivers, tight ends, and runningbacks suck. And I can't expect anyone to succeed here while that's still the case. 

I'm not sure of this at all. League-worst QB play drags everything down. Remember Colts with Peyton Manning versus Curtis Painter?

[slimjasi]

1 minute ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

All three of those prospects have/had excellent collegiate rosters around them. Can't deny that.

So did Matt Leinart, AJ McCarron, Ken Dorsey, Dwayne Haskins.

I agree it's in the eye of the beholder to some degree. I respect Fields, I think he's got tons of grit, but I think he's more likely to be in the group of quarterbacks I've mentioned than the ones you did. 

Of course I could be wrong about that. But what I'm absolutely sure of, is that our offensive line, receivers, tight ends, and runningbacks suck. And I can't expect anyone to succeed here while that's still the case. 

When healthy, the Jets WRs didn't suck this year and neither did the Oline, overall. 

The QB sucked. 

[RedBeardedSavage]

Just now, jgb said:

I'm not sure of this at all. League-worst QB play drag everything down. Remember Colts with Peyton Manning versus Curtis Painter?

Well, how many Peyton Manning's are there? Wasn't he a generational prospect? I've already said I would've made the exception for the generational prospect.

I'm not gonna settle for the Ryan Leaf... alright maybe that's too harsh. I'm not settling for the Baker Mayfield/Marcus Mariota. I'd rather take Chase or Sewell and defer the QB decision until next year.

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

Well luckily we have a lot of picks and cap dollars to address this.  And our WRs really aren't that bad.  Denzel Mims is going to be a star, and Crowder is more than serviceable.  

Crowder is rock solid. Mims... I hope. We'll see.

Again, we'll see about free agency. If we do as well as some of you believe we will, I'm willing to move from my current position. 

[tfine]

I actually think the scheme was bad. Play calling was the worst I’ve scene since Hackett


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[FidelioJet]

11 minutes ago, jgb said:

Right compared to Iron Man Sam.

Also, the trade is for one year. Age not that relevant. And again: Tannehill was objectively much, much better.

Age absolutely matters.

You’re not trading for Sam to simply be a back up.  You’re trading for Sam because you believe the Jets are a horrible organization and you had a top 3 overall grade on him 3 years ago and he’s still 23.

You’re trading for Sam because you believe you can fix him.  No one was trying to fix a 32 year old, injury prone QB.  

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

Well, how many Peyton Manning's are there? Wasn't he a generational prospect? I've already said I would've made the exception for the generational prospect.

I'm not gonna settle for the Ryan Leaf... alright maybe that's too harsh. I'm not settling for the Baker Mayfield/Marcus Mariota. I'd rather take Chase or Sewell and defer the QB decision until next year.

Crowder is rock solid. Mims... I hope. We'll see.

Again, we'll see about free agency. If we do as well as some of you believe we will, I'm willing to move from my current position. 

The reason I raise Painter is because he was the worst-rated QB that year he started, just like Darnold. They also had similar per-game numbers. A FQB makes his own weaponz, not the other way around. If anyone is holding back anyone, it's not our supporting cast holding back Darnold, it's the reverse.

[jgb]

4 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Age absolutely matters.

You’re not trading for Sam to simply be a back up.  You’re trading for Sam because you believe the Jets are a horrible organization and you had a top 3 overall grade on him 3 years ago and he’s still 23.

You’re trading for Sam because you believe you can fix him.  No one was trying to fix a 32 year old, injury prone QB.  

Age doesn't matter once since it's a 1-year rental, is my point. And you conveniently hammer the least important point because you feel you have the advantage while ignoring the more important one: Tannehill was and is at least one standard deviation a better player than Darnold.

Tannehill's $118M contract with Titans proves the point. Age doesn't matter much for QBs until 35ish. Darnold might not see the average value of one year of this contract for the rest of his career.

[tfine]

Sam is your prototypical WCO QB he was much more productive here when Bates was the OC. Herndon was utilized more. He had crafty receivers like Enunwa and Kearse. More pocket movement a lot more shifts and motions to exploit weaknesses


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