Grade the Potential Hire - Marvin Lewis

[CTM]

41 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

No, he didn't.  Reid had a tag of inability to win the NFC Championship, and then later a ring, which is a fairly substantial difference to inability to win a single playoff game.

Quite literally, in his very first playoff game, in his second season as a head coach, Reid got more postseason wins than Lewis did over the course of 16 years.  Not even close to comparable.

meh, Reid had the rep of can't win the big game.  in any event my point was more that it's kind of a silly critique. 

Marvin Lewis has never really had anything resembling a elite QB but consistantly won. 15 years ago he had a very good and young Palmer who suffered a horrific injury at the start of his first playof game. Right when it looked like they were poised for a multi year run.

After that a sea of mediocrity. The fact that his elite QB less teams weren't good enough to thrive in the post season is probably more of an indictment of Dalton, Kitna, etc than Lewis. No?

 

[Bleedin Green]

12 minutes ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

Big difference between 7-9 and 2-14.

They were an embarrassment before he was there and are an embarrassment again after he left.

 

Except they were actually 6-10 Lewis' last year and 4-11-1 this year, but I guess that 1.5 game difference doesn't tell the story you want it to.

[Bleedin Green]

4 minutes ago, CTM said:

meh, Reid had the rep of can't win the big game.  in any event my point was more that it's kind of a silly critique. 

Marvin Lewis has never really had anything resembling a elite QB but consistantly won. 15 years ago he had a very good and young Palmer who suffered a horrific injury at the start of his first playof game. Right when it looked like they were poised for a multi year run.

After that a sea of mediocrity. The fact that his elite QB less teams weren't good enough to thrive in the post season is probably more of an indictment of Dalton, Kitna, etc than Lewis. No?

 

Yet the Jets won playoff games with the Noodle and Sanchez, the latter including a win against Lewis.  He similarly lost against the likes of TJ Yates and Matt Schaub.  Hardly an all-star cast of QBs he was going up against, regardless of who he had (with Palmer and Dalton both better than any of them).

Owning the record for most incompetent postseason coach in league history can't be excused away.  It's so difficult to have that level of ineptitude, that it is literally only Lewis and Jim "Playoffs?!?" Mora who have managed to make it through more than 3 playoff games without a victory.  Supposed postseason laughingstocks the likes of Marty Schottenheimer, Norv Turner, and Wade Phillips couldn't even pull off such an unlikely feat of incompetence.

If we were talking a small sample size, I'd be right there with you, but 16 years is pretty irrefutable evidence.

[Beerfish]

34 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Ricky Ray’s era with Jets suggests you don’t remember the Bungals of decades past. he certainly brought structure to the team and was leading a very strong campaign with Carson, and managed to get more mileage out of Andy than what is in hindsight, was probable  

look I’m not saying he’s the bees knees. I do appreciate that he is a genuine head coach, with a lot of clout around the league. He could wind up putting together a really strong staff. That said I think there’s a couple other candidates I would really look to stretch first. I am nervous About just inserting another coordinator who’s been popularized because of their playcalling.... something that would be way down the list for me on qualifications. I could give a crap about Daboll’s playcalling. Look at Bowles. Back in the DC saddle and turning heads. Completely ineffective leader tho. I want somebody who’s going to run this program

 

Dud they were thugs central through a number of his years an continued to bring in low character guys.  He did not walk into a mess and clean it up at all.

[Beerfish]

47 minutes ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

Look at the Bengals record the decade before he was there, then look at his tenure, then look at what happened after he left.

 

 

 

Teams go in cycles his last three years there he was 6-9-1, 7-9, 6-10.

If we are going by this mantra Marty Shottenheimer is one of the very best coaches of all time.

We go from hiring Adam Gase to another guy who was losing his last three years and has been out of the NFL or meaningful college stuff for a few years.

I'm pretty shocked Marvin Lewis has so much support around here

[CTM]

40 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

Yet the Jets won playoff games with the Noodle and Sanchez, the latter including a win against Lewis.  He similarly lost against the likes of TJ Yates and Matt Schaub.  Hardly an all-star cast of QBs he was going up against, regardless of who he had (with Palmer and Dalton both better than any of them).

Owning the record for most incompetent postseason coach in league history can't be excused away.  It's so difficult to have that level of ineptitude, that it is literally only Lewis and Jim "Playoffs?!?" Mora who have managed to make it through more than 3 playoff games without a victory.  Supposed postseason laughingstocks the likes of Marty Schottenheimer, Norv Turner, and Wade Phillips couldn't even pull off such an unlikely feat of incompetence.

If we were talking a small sample size, I'd be right there with you, but 16 years is pretty irrefutable evidence.

years is immaterial,  it's 7 games we are talking about

Since you brought up the noodle prick, lets compare to Herm Edwards who was 2-4 i the playoffs. 

Throwing away the game where Palmer went down because that is impossible to recover from, , and assuming a Dalton lead team should be sub .500 in the playoffs, you are talking about something like 2 expected wins, for a similiar 2-4 record

So basically we are saying the guy is 2 wins off of what would've been reasonably expected. hardly an indictment or significant basis from which to project

Much better to look at the dudes overall career and see that he's got a record north of .500 with mediocre QB1. Not to shabby imo

 

[Paradis]

1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

Dud they were thugs central through a number of his years an continued to bring in low character guys.  He did not walk into a mess and clean it up at all.

Eh, optics. 

[RSJ]

Anyone who can make it to the playoffs with the bengals must be pretty good


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[Charlie Brown]

4 hours ago, CTM said:

The 0-7 playoff record is scary but he's a decent coach. There was a time with Reid had the can't win  in the playoffs tag too

Thank you!!!

I wanted Reid and was told "why do we want him he can never win" and "the game has passed him by" now some of the same folks are saying we "can't get a Reid assistant" cause he is the one who is that good!

[Jet Nut]

3 hours ago, Bleedin Green said:

Record-setting levels of incompetence in the postseason is pretty hard to make excuses for.

I mean, let's just keep it real simple, how about when they played the 2009 Jets?  To start, that match-up was entirely the Bengals own doing, as the Jets were only in the playoffs by sneaking in with a 9-7 record when they kicked the living crap out of the Bengals in week 17.  The teams then flew out to Cincy for a rematch where the Jets slapped them around for the second time just 6 days later.  That's a 9-7 team on the road with a rookie QB.

It's also worth noting they regularly lost to other teams who have historically been pretty awful in the playoffs themselves.  The Colts, Chargers, Texans (twice, against the immortal talents of Matt Schaub and TJ Yates), and of course the Jets, are not exactly known for their own postseason prowess.  So basically, beyond 2 games vs the Steelers, it was hardly the most insurmountable of playoff opponents.

Lewis was not a bad overall coach, particularly when you compare him to the sh*tstorm the Jets have dealt with the past 2 years, but he's still a proven disastrous failure in high-pressure situations.  16 years is more than a big enough sample size to show that quite clearly.

He never had great teams and really I cant stand blaming all the playoff losses on a HC as if the Bengals were some juggernaut team and we can point to lots of mistakes that took the team down.  He managed to somehow put out a competitive team, win enough games to make the playoffs in a tough division.  I hate it when we simply blame the coach for being a loser as always was the lazy answer for the Eagles not getting over the hump with Reid.

I do know this supposedly a lot of people around the league are said to be fans of Lewis.

Thats all

[WillTheJetseverbegoodagain]

I would hire him if I was Joe Douglas. Marvin Lewis has a 131-122-2 record and won 4 AFC North titles and made the playoffs 7 times.

He didn't win a playoff game because Cincinnati Bengals stink worse then the Jets as an organization and Andy Dalton stinks at QB.

I appreciate that he does have NFL coaching experience and that he is proven and can do what it takes to win since he won with the Bengals another organization that has not won anything since Boomer Esiason was there. I would support this hire. Go Jets!

[Bleedin Green]

1 hour ago, CTM said:

years is immaterial,  it's 7 games we are talking about

Since you brought up the noodle prick, lets compare to Herm Edwards who was 2-4 i the playoffs. 

Throwing away the game where Palmer went down because that is impossible to recover from, , and assuming a Dalton lead team should be sub .500 in the playoffs, you are talking about something like 2 expected wins, for a similiar 2-4 record

So basically we are saying the guy is 2 wins off of what would've been reasonably expected. hardly an indictment or significant basis from which to project

Much better to look at the dudes overall career and see that he's got a record north of .500 with mediocre QB1. Not to shabby imo

 

Your example of Lewis with "mediocre" QBs (who would still be all-time great Jets QBs, mind you) doing far worse than the combination of an incompetent HC, and an even worse QB we both greatly despised, neither of whom I want anywhere near this team again, in no way actually supports your final conclusion.

As I said from the start, he was once a decent regular season HC (although even that's 5 years removed now), while quite literally the single worst postseason coach in league history, as a point of indisputable fact.  A quick look at the numbers tells you how excessively difficult it is to perform such a high level of incompetence.  This is the same HC who had his team blown out by T.J. friggin' Yates.  When your entire argument is nothing but a list of excuses, then you have no argument at all.

[Skeet Ulrich]

2 hours ago, Beerfish said:

 

If we are going by this mantra Marty Shottenheimer is one of the very best coaches of all time.

We go from hiring Adam Gase to another guy who was losing his last three years and has been out of the NFL or meaningful college stuff for a few years.

I'm pretty shocked Marvin Lewis has so much support around here

Marty is one of the best football coaches of all time. In what world is a guy who won 60% of his games and has 200 wins a bad coach? This idea that if you haven't won a championship your career was an abject failure that has permeated sports talk is obnoxious.

 

 

[carlito1171]

7 hours ago, sourceworx said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe three of his coordinators in Cinci ended up with head coaching jobs. They were the Brian Dabolls and Arthur Smiths of their time.

Yes Hue Jackson, Jay Gruden and Mike Zimmer 

[carlito1171]

Wouldn’t love it, but wouldn’t hate it either.....kinda similar to the Knicks hiring Thibs

 

Experienced HC who will change the culture and bring some much needed stability to this operation....He’ll run the team respectably but prob won’t lead us to the promised land....he deserves more credit for turning around the Bungles....sure he never won a playoff game and his teams we’re undisciplined at times, but that franchise was a complete dumpster fire for many moons before he got there, and he was able to compete and win a tough division multiple times with a notoriously cheap owner...

At this point in our existence I wouldn’t hate it....not a sexy pick...but not a complete unknown like most of these coordinators....

[Bleedin Green]

39 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

He never had great teams and really I cant stand blaming all the playoff losses on the HC as if the Bengals were some juggernaut of a team and we can point to lots of mistakes that took the team down.  He managed to somehow put out a competitive team, win enough games to make the playoffs in a tough divisions and then we should blame him exclusively when the teams predictably came up short against better teams.  I hated it when the simple blaming of the coach was used for the Eagles not getting over the hump and somehow Reid was called a loser as was Shotty Sr etc.  

Thats all

There's a substantial difference between solely blaming him, and completely excusing him from an unmatched level of failure.  Carson Palmer and Andy Dalton were still far better than the likes of T.J. Yates, Matt Schaub, and Mark Sanchez, all of whom slapped his teams around in the playoffs.

In the end, even if we were to accept every excuse, it just means that 16 years wasn't enough for him to do his part in building a team that was in the midst of spiraling back down when he was fired, so what possible reason would there be for the Jets to spend any time expecting him to do otherwise for them?

The comparison to (only a subset) of Reid and Marty Schott is meaningless, and only made in an attempt to pair him with a few coaches who were criticized despite being infinitely more successful at it.  Lewis is quite literally the single worst postseason coach in the league's history.  That is a point of absolute fact, and no attempts at twisted logic will do a thing to change that.

[sourceworx]

29 minutes ago, carlito1171 said:

Yes Hue Jackson, Jay Gruden and Mike Zimmer 

Ok, so history shows that he's good at picking coordinators. Other teams don't poach your assistants for head coaching vacancies because they did a poor job working for you.

[Jet Nut]

31 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

There's a substantial difference between solely blaming him, and completely excusing him from an unmatched level of failure.  Carson Palmer and Andy Dalton were still far better than the likes of T.J. Yates, Matt Schaub, and Mark Sanchez, all of whom slapped his teams around in the playoffs.

In the end, even if we were to accept every excuse, it just means that 16 years wasn't enough for him to do his part in building a team that was in the midst of spiraling back down when he was fired, so what possible reason would there be for the Jets to spend any time expecting him to do otherwise for them?

The comparison to (only a subset) of Reid and Marty Schott is meaningless, and only made in an attempt to pair him with a few coaches who were criticized despite being infinitely more successful at it.  Lewis is quite literally the single worst postseason coach in the league's history.  That is a point of absolute fact, and no attempts at twisted logic will do a thing to change that.

I made it simple, I dont believe losses are all the fault of HCs unless you can give specific plays, clock mgt errors etc that cost them games.  In general, I have said more than once that Lewis isnt my choice, just I would understand.  

The comparison with Reid and Shotty Sr was perfectly relevant, other HCs with good regular season records that are/were knocked down for playoff failures.  You want to call it twisted logic, good for you.  

Have a good one, continue with the others who feel the same. 

[Bleedin Green]

14 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

I made it simple, I dont believe losses are all the fault of HCs unless you can give specific plays, clock mgt errors etc that cost them games.  The comparison with Reid and Shotty Sr was perfectly relevant, other HCs with good regular season records that are/were knocked down for playoff failures.  You want to call it twisted logic, good for you.  

So they get credit for the wins, but no blame at all for the losses?  Yeah, seems totally legit.  I'm sure when the entire team has a complete meltdown on the field in the midst of a game, the head coach is just an innocent victim.  You haven't made a cogent argument of any sort, just arbitrarily dismissing facts that don't fit the narrative you want.

And no, a comparison of Reid's 15-14 playoff record, along with a Lombardi, to Lewis' NFL record 0-7 is by absolutely no measure even slightly relevant.

[Beerfish]

1 hour ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

Marty is one of the best football coaches of all time. In what world is a guy who won 60% of his games and has 200 wins a bad coach? This idea that if you haven't won a championship your career was an abject failure that has permeated sports talk is obnoxious.

 

 

I agree he is, he is also lambasted by fans and analysts for not winning in the playoffs and choking in the playoffs.

[Smashmouth]

9 hours ago, dbatesman said:

Nuke the entire franchise from orbit

Yeah but if we do that we'll take out the Eagles the Giants and maybe even the PAts .... 

Ok I'm good with this

[jgb]

1 hour ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

Marty is one of the best football coaches of all time. In what world is a guy who won 60% of his games and has 200 wins a bad coach? This idea that if you haven't won a championship your career was an abject failure that has permeated sports talk is obnoxious.

 

 

Yup. Same as the lazy QB evaluation “method” of looking at team record. It’s interesting that some of the same voices that knock Watson’s 4,800 yard 33/7 campaign (best of his career) without Hopkins because “he only won 4 games” are the same ones that are preaching patience with Darnold.

[Rangers9]

Actually Lewis spent this past season in an advisory position working on the staff for Herm at Arizona State. He wouldn’t be my choice but there’s nothing wrong with the guy he’s a good coach but no real record of winning. 

[Philc1]

I don’t want Lewis either but how is he worse than some of these scrubs names I keep hearing

[Philc1]

6 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

Actually Lewis spent this past season in an advisory position working on the staff for Herm at Arizona State. He wouldn’t be my choice but there’s nothing wrong with the guy he’s a good coach but no real record of winning. 

He had competitive teams in Cincy with bad ownership similar to woody

 

[68JET11]

15 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

I like Lewis as a culture builder and a steady CEO type HC.  But I'd want innovation underneath him.  It would be difficult to watch some recycled dinosaurs come in here to be OC and DC.  Marvin Lewis with a young, first time OC, maybe someone like Press Taylor who is the Eagle's passing game coordinator and QB coach, would be interesting to me.  And, there's a Joe Douglas Eagles connection there.

The reason I didn't want Mike McCarthy last year is because I consider him outdated, football has passed him by a bit on offense IMO.  But Lewis would be more of an executive HC even though he comes from the defensive side of the ball.  Having fresher coordinators would be great.

Also, don't forget that he's been an assistant under Herm Edwards at ASU.  This shows some humility and a culture, team first guy to go from being a NFL head coach to a college assistant.  Also, Kevin Mawae is on that staff out here in Tempe, AZ.  Would be fun to see Marvin Lewis bring him along to help with the OLine.

 

Good post... I'm sure most Jet fans could live with him, if he were to bring in the OC that will bring NYJ football into the 21st Century lol...

[section314]

14 hours ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

If that's the case - it's only right to give Lewis credit for his SB run with the Ravens then right? If we're counting coordinator experience and all...

Absolutely, and he was at the time, kinda like Buddy Ryan with the 85 Bears. It's how he got the Bengals job in the first place. But right now, he's just another failed HC . You want him, he's yours.

[UntouchableCrew]

B

I'm in the extreme minority I'm sure but I think Marvin Lewis is a good coach and with the right coordinators I could get on board with this.

Seriously -- look at what the Bengals (the cheapest org in the NFL, they didn't even have a full scouting dept. until Lewis) were before he got there and after he left.

[Jethead]

I think Lewis should be a finalist. I think he could build a strong staff of very professional coaches. Way better than some (many) of the names being thrown around.

Dabol also merits a very long look.

[Skeet Ulrich]

1 hour ago, UntouchableCrew said:

B

I'm in the extreme minority I'm sure but I think Marvin Lewis is a good coach and with the right coordinators I could get on board with this.

Seriously -- look at what the Bengals (the cheapest org in the NFL, they didn't even have a full scouting dept. until Lewis) were before he got there and after he left.

Bad ownership is so crippling to a sports franchise. Look at what Marv had to deal with - never signing any of your draft picks to second deals because your owner is cheap, not being able to be active participants in FA because..... your owner is cheap. Despite all that, he managed to be very competitive and even win the AFCN a few times, competing with the Ravens and Steelers. As I stated: Somehow Marv's tenure with the Bengals has apparently become underrated.

 

[RJIII]

At this point Lewis is more geared for a consulting figure for a team rather than HC. The game has evolved way past his time and philosophy. Executive role yes, HC hell no! 

[Bleedin Green]

1 hour ago, Jethead said:

I think Lewis should be a finalist. I think he could build a strong staff of very professional coaches. Way better than some (many) of the names being thrown around.

Dabol also merits a very long look.

I'll gladly hope to be very, very wrong about this if either gets the job, but I think those are actually the 2 worst of all this year's "hot" candidates.  They are both guys whose primary selling points are really just a long list of excuses, which is hardly inspiring.

[JoJoTownsell1]

We need an offensive mind leading this team or a head coach (that could be Marvin Lewis) who lets the OC do his thing. We cannot afford to hire a defensive minded head coach that will come here and try to win with his defensive mindset because that will stunt the growth of our QB (Whoever that may be). 

We have gone decades without a franchise QB and the number 1 priority should be finding that QB and developing him. I rather go 5-12 next year with a high powered offense than go 8-8 with a ball control defensive minded approach. We can fix the defense heading into 2022. 

[BettyBoop]

16 hours ago, Bleedin Green said:

Yet the Jets won playoff games with the Noodle and Sanchez, the latter including a win against Lewis.  He similarly lost against the likes of TJ Yates and Matt Schaub.  Hardly an all-star cast of QBs he was going up against, regardless of who he had (with Palmer and Dalton both better than any of them).

Owning the record for most incompetent postseason coach in league history can't be excused away.  It's so difficult to have that level of ineptitude, that it is literally only Lewis and Jim "Playoffs?!?" Mora who have managed to make it through more than 3 playoff games without a victory.  Supposed postseason laughingstocks the likes of Marty Schottenheimer, Norv Turner, and Wade Phillips couldn't even pull off such an unlikely feat of incompetence.

If we were talking a small sample size, I'd be right there with you, but 16 years is pretty irrefutable evidence.

So hire him to get us to the playoffs and fire him the week before the playoffs begin.

[BettyBoop]

3 hours ago, section314 said:

Absolutely, and he was at the time, kinda like Buddy Ryan with the 85 Bears. It's how he got the Bengals job in the first place. But right now, he's just another failed HC . You want him, he's yours.

You’re right.  We should hire a HC who has been extremely successful, has won serveral Super Bowls and is wanted by every team out there.

The name that comes to mind is...