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More Cowbell

So are you still comfortable with Fields or Wilson?

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Just now, More Cowbell said:

Sam showed good pocket presence and went through his progressions well under Bowels. Gase ruined that part of his game. He did that stuff well until Gase got a hold of him.

So being extremely generous he's 2 of like 20 key traits there. At least he was two years ago... Still very, very unlikely.

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Just now, Snell41 said:

 


No, taking a QB that’s not a franchise level prospect at 2 overall is shockingly dumb. That’s how you end up with guys like Trubisky. Fields is not a franchise level QB, neither is Wilson. Darnold has proven he isn’t either don’t get me wrong, but I’d much rather use the pick on a guy like Smith who looks every bit the part of a dominating game changer at WR than on Fields who looks a lot like a middle of the road type of QB at best. Nothing about Fields or Wilson tells me they are the next Mahomes, Rodgers, Russel Wilson. Hell, neither of them are even as a good a prospect as Burrow or Herbert. Continue to build a quality roster and you will find a QB next year with one of our picks that is equal to either of these prospects and you will already have a great situation of talent for them to step into.


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Except no. Mahomes was a project and then he panned out. Wilson’s stats and skill set look like a pro quarterback. Fields’ skill set is elite. He can be coached up but his skill set can’t be ignored. Wilson and Fields will end up top 10 on most of not all big boards. You don’t wait to take one of those.

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16 minutes ago, jgb said:

He plays like a guy for whom it does not come easy and he's over-processing everything. You can almost see him counting his steps in dropbacks.

Compare that to a guy like Minshew. Not nearly as physically gifted as Darnold by a long shot. But he just plays easy and looks like he belongs.

Sam Darnold is Billy Beane and Minshew is Lenny Dykstra. From Moneyball:

Physically, Lenny didn’t belong in the same league with him. He was half Billy’s size and had a fraction of Billy’s promise – which is why the Mets hadn’t drafted him until the 13th round. Mentally, Lenny was superior, which was odd, considering Lenny wasn’t what you’d call a student of the game. Billy remembers sitting with Lenny in a Mets dugout watching the opposing pitcher warm up. ‘Lenny says, “So who’s that big dumb ass out there on the hill?” And I say, “Lenny, you’re kidding me, right? That’s Steve Carlton. He’s maybe the greatest left-hander in the history of the game.” Lenny says, “Oh, yeah! I knew that!” He sits there for a minute and says, “So, what’s he got?” And I say, “Lenny, come on. Steve Carlton. He’s got heat and also maybe the nastiest slider ever.” And Lenny sits there for a while longer as if he’s taking that in. Finally he just says, “sh*t, I’ll stick him.” I’m sitting there thinking, that’s a magazine cover out there on the hill and all Lenny can think is that he’ll stick him.’”

The point about Lenny, at least to Billy, was clear: Lenny didn’t let his mind screw him up. The physical gifts required to play pro ball were, in some ways, less extraordinary than the mental ones. Only a psychological freak could approach a 100-mph fastball aimed not all that far from his head with total confidence. “Lenny was so perfectly designed, emotionally, to play the game of baseball,” said Billy. “He was able to instantly forget any failure and draw strength from every success. He had no concept of failure. And he had no idea where he was. And I was the opposite.”

remember when lenny was a stock pundit on CNBC?

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I know he's not being discussed pretty much anywhere right now as being in contention at 2 but I think Trey Lance is the sleeper in all of this. Athletically he might be the most talented of anyone in this draft when you combine his ability as a runner with the arm strength he has. 

Douglas according to reports was the main individual who scouted and lobbied for Flacco when he was with the Ravens and I could see him gambling on another small school guy who has a massive toolbox. Josh Allen may also impact opinions in this draft as well, as coming out he was the big athletic but incredibly raw prospect so we may get some recency bias that influences the evaluation process.

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1 minute ago, jgb said:

So being extremely generous he's 2 of like 20 key traits there. At least he was two years ago... Still very, very unlikely.

My point is there was something to work with. Gase made him worse 

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2 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Sam showed good pocket presence and went through his progressions well under Bowels. Gase ruined that part of his game. He did that stuff well until Gase got a hold of him.

Agreed.  Gase even admitted it which was shocking.  The kid has talent.  The kid had his issues.  But having the worst head coach and rosters in the NFL doesn’t exactly help 😂.  I still feel bringing in even an adequate head coach would help him tremendously along with all the assets we have to improve the team. 

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Just now, More Cowbell said:

Sam showed good pocket presence and went through his progressions well under Bowels. Gase ruined that part of his game. He did that stuff well until Gase got a hold of him.

But that's not something that should change due to a new offensive scheme. I seriously doubt Gase was telling Sam only look at one read and don't worry about reading pre snap defenses and blitzes.  Sure I agree the offensive game plan under Gase did him no favors but the mental aspects of the game should not "devolve". Sam's broken and the big question is , does he have the fight, fire and motivation to make the necessary adjustments . 

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9 minutes ago, jgb said:

Extrapolating a QB's college performance to the pros is the hardest thing to do in sports. I definitely could be 100% wrong. But I know Darnold has been one of -- if not the -- worst QBs in the NFL. Once you accept that, other conclusions flow naturally.

Darnold is bad. I didn’t like him coming out and thought he was at most a project. I don’t see the same thing with Wilson. I do see the same kind of thing with Fields. I like both of them and would take either at 2, no questions asked. 

The big lesson I’ve learned since I started doing the draft more seriously is that if you like a QB prospect as a high first rounder you take him. I think there are 4 high first round type QBs so I’m ok with any of them. 

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We need some skill position players WR, RB...we don't score any points...a TE? When is the last time we had a TE...

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Whatever JD's coach decides, it is what it is. I trust JD will pick a good HC and that HC will bring in quality coaches. (Saleh with Kafka) would b a nice tandem) Coaching is sooooo key rn. I hope we hit a homerun. 

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5 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Sam showed good pocket presence and went through his progressions well under Bowels. Gase ruined that part of his game. He did that stuff well until Gase got a hold of him.

This is not a real thing. He was the worst QB against the blitz his rookie year and he’s still that. He’s athletic and can throw on the run well enough but that’s about all he has going for him. 

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Just my own two cents.  But I'd take Fields any day over Mormon Mahomes.   I see more Josh Rosen in Zach Wilson than Aaron Rodgers.  And that's not including the medicals.  I like Trey Lance better than both top QB options anyway.

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1 minute ago, LSJF said:

We need some skill position players WR, RB...we don't score any points...a TE? When is the last time we had a TE...

Dustin Keller? 

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5 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

My point is there was something to work with. Gase made him worse 

There's something but you can't build a house on a paving stone.

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7 minutes ago, msena88 said:

I know he's not being discussed pretty much anywhere right now as being in contention at 2 but I think Trey Lance is the sleeper in all of this. Athletically he might be the most talented of anyone in this draft when you combine his ability as a runner with the arm strength he has. 

Douglas according to reports was the main individual who scouted and lobbied for Flacco when he was with the Ravens and I could see him gambling on another small school guy who has a massive toolbox. Josh Allen may also impact opinions in this draft as well, as coming out he was the big athletic but incredibly raw prospect so we may get some recency bias that influences the evaluation process.

Too bad he never really got to play this year other than that one game.

A fairly big risk reward player.

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5 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

But that's not something that should change due to a new offensive scheme. I seriously doubt Gase was telling Sam only look at one read and don't worry about reading pre snap defenses and blitzes.  Sure I agree the offensive game plan under Gase did him no favors but the mental aspects of the game should not "devolve". Sam's broken and the big question is , does he have the fight, fire and motivation to make the necessary adjustments . 

He played in. Bad scheme, with bad play calling with minimal talent around him. The offense couldn't score and Sam tried to play hero ball. When he felt he had a chance to put points up, he forced throws. He needs to stop that. At 23, with a good system and more talent, it's not inconcievable that he could realize his potential

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10 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

I think there are 4 high first round type QBs so I’m ok with any of them. 

TL is a high first Rd pick 

Fields is a mid rd1 pick... Top 20 

Wilson is cusp 1/2

The others trey Lance, Mac etc go Rd 2 or beyond 

The value of these players is important. Jd drafts for value that's the point of the mims trade down. He will want to trade back for any non Trevor qb 

Sewell, Smith these are high Rd 1 types like Trevor 

 

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4 minutes ago, genot said:

He played in. Bad scheme, with bad play calling with minimal talent around him. The offense couldn't score and Sam tried to play hero ball. When he felt he had a chance to put points up, he forced throws. He needs to stop that. At 23, with a good system and more talent, it's not inconcievable that he could realize his potential

Agreed 

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2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

TL is a high first Rd pick 

Fields is a mid rd1 pick... Top 20 

Wilson is cusp 1/2

The others trey Lance, Mac etc go Rd 2 or beyond 

The value of these players is important. Jd drafts for value that's the point of the mims trade down. He will want to trade back for any non Trevor qb 

Sewell, Smith these are high Rd 1 types like Trevor 

 

Do you think Chase is in that Smith/Sewell category?

Why or why not?

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8 minutes ago, genot said:

He played in. Bad scheme, with bad play calling with minimal talent around him. The offense couldn't score and Sam tried to play hero ball. When he felt he had a chance to put points up, he forced throws. He needs to stop that. At 23, with a good system and more talent, it's not inconcievable that he could realize his potential

What is Sam's 'potential' in your estimation? Let's say he gets it turned around - what QB do you compare him to? Is he a MVP? Top 10 QB?

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38 minutes ago, BCJet said:

This is a very similar analysis to Justin Herbert so keep that in mind. 

Whether he gets picked at 16 or 2, you would hope the organization doesn’t let that factor into whether he should sit or not. If he can handle the playbook and protections he should play. If he can’t he should sit. It’s on the coaching staff to simplify things in his first season, not complicate his reads (ie work as much half field stuff as possible) and then add more as he progresses through year two. 

The thing is though, Ohio state would get to the line quickly, get everyone set and then he would sit there and stare at the sidelines so that the coaching staff could communicate with him on what adjustments he needed to make. This happened a ton, especially in the first half. He needed the sideline to help him read Alabama’s pre snap looks. Fields  isn’t close to being ready.

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The fastest rebuild is Fields hits. 
If Fields busts, we are only one or two players better than not taking him.  That's not much. 
 

 

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30 minutes ago, bitonti said:

TL is a high first Rd pick 

Fields is a mid rd1 pick... Top 20 

Wilson is cusp 1/2

The others trey Lance, Mac etc go Rd 2 or beyond 

The value of these players is important. Jd drafts for value that's the point of the mims trade down. He will want to trade back for any non Trevor qb 

Sewell, Smith these are high Rd 1 types like Trevor 

 

Lol pretty much no one agrees with your ratings. Fields and Wilson are Top 10 in every single draft rating with many having Wilson over Fields.

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Except no. Mahomes was a project and then he panned out. Wilson’s stats and skill set look like a pro quarterback. Fields’ skill set is elite. He can be coached up but his skill set can’t be ignored. Wilson and Fields will end up top 10 on most of not all big boards. You don’t wait to take one of those.


We can agree to disagree. Just because these two are the best of the rest prospects of this year doesn’t mean they are good. Desperate teams take QB’s praying to god they pan out all the time. I do not think Fields or Wilson have an elite ceiling. In fact I think their ceiling is likely right around Derek Carr level. Sometimes good, mostly just avg or worse.


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34 minutes ago, bitonti said:

TL is a high first Rd pick 

Fields is a mid rd1 pick... Top 20 

Wilson is cusp 1/2

The others trey Lance, Mac etc go Rd 2 or beyond 

The value of these players is important. Jd drafts for value that's the point of the mims trade down. He will want to trade back for any non Trevor qb 

Sewell, Smith these are high Rd 1 types like Trevor 

 

Except you won’t fina a single place that will have Wilson below top 5 on the big board and Fields outside of the top 5 of any big board. 

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2 minutes ago, Snell41 said:

 


We can agree to disagree. Just because these two are the best of the rest prospects of this year doesn’t mean they are good. Desperate teams take QB’s praying to god they pan out all the time. I do not think Fields or Wilson have an elite ceiling. In fact I think their ceiling is likely right around Derek Carr level. Sometimes good, mostly just avg or worse.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

 

Okay but I don’t see what you’re basing that on. Since both Wilson and Fields have better stats. In terms of raw ability Wilson has a bigger arm and Fields is more athletic. 

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53 minutes ago, msena88 said:

I know he's not being discussed pretty much anywhere right now as being in contention at 2 but I think Trey Lance is the sleeper in all of this. Athletically he might be the most talented of anyone in this draft when you combine his ability as a runner with the arm strength he has. 

Douglas according to reports was the main individual who scouted and lobbied for Flacco when he was with the Ravens and I could see him gambling on another small school guy who has a massive toolbox. Josh Allen may also impact opinions in this draft as well, as coming out he was the big athletic but incredibly raw prospect so we may get some recency bias that influences the evaluation process.

I honestly believe he did it last year when he drafted James Morgan in the 4th rd.

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I've never been comfortable with Fields. I think he's a massive waste of the equity in the 2nd pick. I can definitely get behind Zach Wilson where he can be had later on like around 10 to 15 is what I figure? It allows JD to trade down, pick up a lot of badly needed picks, and still get a QB to put in competition with Sammy. Fields is straight up GARBAGE and last night's game proved that.

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1 hour ago, 56mehl56 said:

Darnold as an NFL QB has been afforded access to multiple QB coaches/OC's and off season mentoring from QB gurus . He gets to dissect film in a state of the art facility in FP. Sam's problem to date has not been about talent and players around him. Its been about the mental aspects of the game. Sam's been handed an opportunity on a golden platter and he either is too dense to learn or doesn't have the fortitude and drive to be a great QB at the NFL level. 

You think being on a dysfunctional Jets team the last 3 years is being handed an opportunity on a golden platter? How dense are you?

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Prefer Fields, but I am good with either. 

I also think Lance is worth a serious look. 

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1 hour ago, southtown24th said:

Yup

1. Fields 

2. Wilson

All options better than Darnie McDarnie.

You haven’t watched 10 mins of BYU

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Just now, Paradis said:

You haven’t watched 10 mins of BYU

And probably only 2 games of OSU

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1 hour ago, More Cowbell said:

Mahomes has a little better resume than Fields,  would you not agree?

The point is everyone can have a bad pass or two.  Did Mahomes ever have a bad game in college?  How many teams that passed over him wish they could get a do over?     

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1 hour ago, johnnysd said:

Still very much for Wilson. Shoulders are a non issue in that they will be so thoroughly examined that Jets won't pick him if medical is iffy.

The "competition" issue has been shown to be completely bogus and you just need to look at the traits of the QB

Wilson is better than Fields in almost every way..

If the Jets pick Fields I will root really hard for him to be successful but to be honest he does not seem to be a NFL caliber QB to me

I would prefer Jones to Fields in a big way. Not every team needs to run RPO. 

Results based analysis of CFB QBs is useless.

Put Fields on Alabama and Jones on OSU do you think you would feel the same way?  Lets not get carried away here.  Remember Lawrence had a terrible championship game against LSU and a subpar one against OSU this year but yet his still considered the top quarterback.   Fields is going to be a star for some team that doesn't get caught up in "overthinking it".     Fields played with a hip pointer and Alabama is much better team then OSU.   

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