Most Divisive Jets QB Debate of the 2000s

[CTM]

1 minute ago, Biggs said:

If you're arguing that Chad didn't lift that team you're being argumentative because you hate Chad.  He lifted the team.  He lead that team.  It was going nowhere with a washed up Vinny running Paul Hacketts WCO.   Herm was loyal to a fault and even he knew the team was DOA if it continued with Vinny.

I'm aruging that CHad took a playoff caliber team to the playoffs

You are arguing that Chad took a 4 win team and took them to the playoffs.

I'm not seeing much support for your position, Chad being an improvement over Vinny just means Chad was better than a Qb whose strong play was behind him. Hardly a ringing endorsement, It's like pointing out how bad Trevor SImian looked as evidence that Darnold is a top 15 QB.

The team won 10 games prior and came into the season as odds on favorite to carry the division.  It was a decent team.

[Bleedin Green]

3 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Chad started because Vinny played himself out of the starting job.   Vinny got all the work in pre-season.  Chad came in cold and moved the team.  The loss was on Herm for starting Vinny.  Vinny simply forced Herm's hand.  

If you're arguing that Chad didn't lift that team you're being argumentative because you hate Chad.  He lifted the team.  He lead that team.  It was going nowhere with a washed up Vinny running Paul Hacketts WCO.   Herm was loyal to a fault and even he knew the team was DOA if it continued with Vinny.

Every NFL team has talent.  Chad was drafted in the first round by the same guys that drafted the foundation for that team to be a playoff team.  That was a terrific draft and Chad was worthy of a first round pick by a very competent group who were evaluating the talent.  The guy when healthy, which was not long enough was a very good NFL QB.

I hated Chad because I hated the WCO and loved running the ball and going over the top of defenses with a big armed QB who could take the top off a field and make the long throws down the field outside the hashmarks.  That wasn't Chad.  Not my ideal QB.  The guy had a great head, great ball fakes and made things happen on a team that was headed nowhere. 

2002 was in fact the one season where the team performed better with him than the other available QBs, I will give him that.  However, it then also needs to pointed out that this was the only season of his career that was the case, as the team performed similarly with Chad as they did any of his replacements from there on out:

2003: Chad 4-6, Vinny 2-4
2004: Chad 9-6, Carter 2-1
2005: Chad 1-2, Vinny/Bollywood/Kingsbury 3-10
2007: Chad 1-9, Clemens 3-4

[Philc1]

1 hour ago, CTM said:

I'm aruging that CHad took a playoff caliber team to the playoffs

You are arguing that Chad took a 4 win team and took them to the playoffs.

I'm not seeing much support for your position, Chad being an improvement over Vinny just means Chad was better than a Qb whose strong play was behind him. Hardly a ringing endorsement, It's like pointing out how bad Trevor SImian looked as evidence that Darnold is a top 15 QB.

The team won 10 games prior and came into the season as odds on favorite to carry the division.  It was a decent team.

No it wasn’t.  
 

We lost Ferguson on the defensive line which led to Vilma getting exposed and having such a meltdown week 1 he got into a fistfight on the sideline with Fergie’s replacement James Reed.  We also lost Kareem Mackenzie via free agency and Jason Fabini was done

 

Football is won and lost in the trenches

 

[CTM]

30 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

No it wasn’t.  
 

We lost Ferguson on the defensive line which led to Vilma getting exposed and having such a meltdown week 1 he got into a fistfight on the sideline with Fergie’s replacement James Reed.  We also lost Kareem Mackenzie via free agency and Jason Fabini was done

 

Football is won and lost in the trenches

 

ahh yes, and somehow only Chad was able to overcome these issues

[#27TheDominator]

28 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

No it wasn’t.  
 

We lost Ferguson on the defensive line which led to Vilma getting exposed and having such a meltdown week 1 he got into a fistfight on the sideline with Fergie’s replacement James Reed.  We also lost Kareem Mackenzie via free agency and Jason Fabini was done

 

Football is won and lost in the trenches

 

I don't really know what you are talking about.  Vilma vs. Reed was in 2005.  Yes, they lost Ferguson to the Cowboys, but arguing about that team does not seem to make much sense when these guys were talking about 2002   2002 was Kareem McKenzie's first year starting.  

[Bleedin Green]

36 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

No it wasn’t.  
 

We lost Ferguson on the defensive line which led to Vilma getting exposed and having such a meltdown week 1 he got into a fistfight on the sideline with Fergie’s replacement James Reed.  We also lost Kareem Mackenzie via free agency and Jason Fabini was done

 

Football is won and lost in the trenches

 

Everything you're talking about was in 2005, not 2002.

[NYJ1]

21 hours ago, jgb said:

They only seem cut and dry now but there were plenty who still believed in Geno and Sanchez after they left the Jets. Will be same for Darnold.

Well, I doubt Sammy is leaving? So I don't think we've written the final chapter when it comes to Sammy...

[Philc1]

15 hours ago, CTM said:

ahh yes, and somehow only Chad was able to overcome these issues

The only QBs the past 20 years who could overcome those issues were Peyton Manning and Aaron Rodgers

 

Even Brady had a tough time if he wasn’t getting protection

[jgb]

3 hours ago, NYJ1 said:

Well, I doubt Sammy is leaving? So I don't think we've written the final chapter when it comes to Sammy...

A one year delay of the inevitable, max

[nyjunc]

On 1/20/2021 at 5:53 PM, Bleedin Green said:

Ah, this is some classic junk right here... undying love for the team's greatest albatrosses, to the disturbing point of celebrating the ongoing team failures, thanks in no small part to his heroes' direct responsibility for the shortcomings of the some of the greatest overall rosters in team history.

The noodle in particular never got anyone "close to super bowls" unless he happened to drive someone to the stadium.

You have to love Jet fans, they crap on the lake that helped our team at least get close and love people that never did anything for us like Favre and Fitz.

[nyjunc]

On 1/21/2021 at 8:59 AM, Jetsfan80 said:

 

He wasn't hurt during the Raider game in the 2002 playoffs.  21-47, 183 yards, 1 TD, 2 INTs, 44.9 QB Rating.  What was the excuse for that performance, again?

It wasn't JUST about injuries/arm strength for Pennington.  

No QB before or since Chad ever had a bad playoff game.

On 1/21/2021 at 8:37 AM, jmat321 said:

In the age of message boards - Pennington. Was THE topic on JI from the Raiders playoff game to an injured Favre losing to Chad in Week 17.

Rex Ryan destroying Chad in the Wildcard Game the following week probably had a lot to do w/ Woody hiring him.

If message boards were around in the 80s, O’Brien might have been more divisive.  Just used to hear so much debate about him amongst adults in the parking lot as a kid.  I.e - passing on Marino, Pat Ryan, taking too many bad sacks.

O'Brien is talked about like he's a HOFer on here, he inherited a young team that was among the most talented in football just off an AFC Championship Game appearance and he never led us to a single playoff win while after being benched his backup won a playoff game.

On 1/21/2021 at 9:50 AM, Jetsfan80 said:

I was at that Colts game.  One of the greatest games I've been to in my life in any sport.

It's not cherry picking to point out that Pennington threw up a complete dud in a playoff game.  That's a pretty horrid time to play poorly, and there was no excuse for it.  "Coming off a bye", lol.  Like you said, we were coming off a 41-0 win.  We had the momentum.

And he played poorly in big games and against competent defenses his whole career, so it's very relevant.  That kind of pattern means you can't put it all on the physical issues when it comes to Pennington.  Are you trying to suggest his arm was fine against weak teams, but a problem against good teams?

He simply wasn't that good.  It's OK to admit that over a decade later.  Jets fans have a strange reverence for QB's that either flat out sucked or weren't all that good.  This franchise hasn't had a real QB since Namath.  Pennington is part of that bad history of QB's, he's not an exception to it.

He led us to the playoffs every time he played at least 12 games and won 2 playoff games so he must have won some big games, right?  In 02 in week 16 the win he led us to in Foxboro decided the division. This was the only year Brady didn't win the AFC East and they wouldn't lost another game in Foxboro until 3 years later but I guess that wasn't a big game either?

On 1/21/2021 at 10:26 AM, CTM said:

Based on what exactly?

There were 1-2 when chad took over, he went 8-5

The year prior they werwe 10-6, the year before that 9-7

They were projected as likely division winners by most of the "experts"  pre season, 8 of 15 voted  Jets,  4 dolphins , 3 pats

How did a 10 win team predicted to win the diviion morph into a 4 win team to support the noodle narrative

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/preview02/s/predictions.html

 

The Jets were supposed to be good that year but had a million early injuries. They were 1-4 when Chad became the starter having lost 3 straight by a combined score of 102-13.

[Bleedin Green]

1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

You have to love Jet fans, they crap on the lake that helped our team at least get close and love people that never did anything for us like Favre and Fitz.

Or perhaps some of us aren't just frighteningly obsessed with giving sole credit to the teams' greatest weaknesses, who were ultimately the top reasons for failure of overall excellent teams to go any further.

[nyjunc]

16 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

Or perhaps some of us aren't just frighteningly obsessed with giving sole credit to the teams' greatest weaknesses, who were ultimately the top reasons for failure of overall excellent teams to go any further.

Please show me where I gave sole credit to those players.  Both helped our team go on fun runs, both were vital to those runs.  I appreciate them.

[Bleedin Green]

8 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Please show me where I gave sole credit to those players.  Both helped our team go on fun runs, both were vital to those runs.  I appreciate them.

Both were dragged along kicking and screaming, and both were the primary reason for the eventual failures.

[nyjunc]

19 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

Both were dragged along kicking and screaming, and both were the primary reason for the eventual failures.

We have the worst fanbase in sports

[Bleedin Green]

16 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

We have the worst fanbase in sports

There's no need for you to try to drag the rest of us down with you.

Not our fault you want to repeatedly belittle 52 other players for the sake of whichever one guy you have a frightening level of obsession with that particular year.

[CTM]

2 hours ago, nyjunc said:

The Jets were supposed to be good that year but had a million early injuries. They were 1-4 when Chad became the starter having lost 3 straight by a combined score of 102-13.

Cool,, except Chad threw 34 passes to Vinny's 4, and that was game 4 not 5., The Jets were 1-2 when Chad took over

[CTM]

26 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

There's no need for you to try to drag the rest of us down with you.

Not our fault you want to repeatedly belittle 52 other players for the sake of whichever one guy you have a frightening level of obsession with that particular year.

that is what has blown my mind about QB fanboys for years..  Somehow  they think trashing the QB = bad fan , trashing the rest of the team, coaching staff, front office = a real fan.

[CTM]

3 hours ago, nyjunc said:

You have to love Jet fans, they crap on the lake that helped our team at least get close and love people that never did anything for us like Favre and Fitz.

Favre rid us of the noodle virus, he belongs in the ring of honor as far as I'm concerned, Pennington's # should line the urinals of the entire stadium

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, CTM said:

that is what has blown my mind about QB fanboys for years..  Somehow  they think trashing the QB = bad fan , trashing the rest of the team, coaching staff, front office = a real fan.

Well said. I’m much more optimistic than the Darnold advocates. I think he’s holding the ten other guys on offense back, not the other way around.

[BloodGreen]

Not being in any particular forum back then, I assumed Pennington was universally liked. 
Seeing the reactions to him now, I have to think back then must've been brutal. 

Same for me. Wow!


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[BloodGreen]

The first game to which I took my son was the playoff game when we beat the Colts, with Peyton Manning, 41-0.   Mike Greenberg, whom I really like, was arguing with Golic that Chad was better than Manning.  The next week we played the Raiders.  After that game, I told my son,  “We will never win the Super Bowl with Chad.”   The Raiders played press coverage, and Chad simply did not have the arm strength to complete a pass outside the numbers.  I loved Chad as a person, but...

I was at that game as well, and it was glorious! Chad played great that game, but it was his Swan Song. He had nothing left after that.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[nyjunc]

12 hours ago, CTM said:

Cool,, except Chad threw 34 passes to Vinny's 4, and that was game 4 not 5., The Jets were 1-2 when Chad took over

I'm sorry they were 1-3.  His first start was their first competitive game since week 1 as they lost a close game and they took off from there.  What a great season led by Chad

[nyjunc]

12 hours ago, CTM said:

that is what has blown my mind about QB fanboys for years..  Somehow  they think trashing the QB = bad fan , trashing the rest of the team, coaching staff, front office = a real fan.

When you trash players and coaches that helped us win and love players like Favre and Fitz that kept us from winning you are a bad fan.

[nyjunc]

12 hours ago, CTM said:

Favre rid us of the noodle virus, he belongs in the ring of honor as far as I'm concerned, Pennington's # should line the urinals of the entire stadium

Yep, he cost us at least a division title(while Chad took a much less talented team to the division title) and possibly a SB as that was the weakest year in memory.  Thank you Brett!

[CTM]

1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

When you trash players and coaches that helped us win and love players like Favre and Fitz that kept us from winning you are a bad fan.

Yeah and you worship Penny who blew 2 playoff games and completely thrashed what 3 other seasons due to being as sturdy as a faberge egg . Complely wasting the nucleus of talent Parcells brought in

 Good point.

[CTM]

1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

I'm sorry they were 1-3.  His first start was their first competitive game since week 1 as they lost a close game and they took off from there.  What a great season led by Chad

That about says it all, im sure you dont really think think that  Vinnys 4 passes had more impact on that game than  Chad's 34 passes , so the fact that you need to create fictious talking points to support your conclusion might bely its inherent weakenss.

Chad took a playoff caliber team to the playoffs, had a great 3 game run to close the season and start the playoffs, was terrible in divisional round and pretty mediocre the rest of the year, and you are here almost 2 decades later still singing his praises for this exceedingly mundane achievement. Lol

[Philc1]

18 hours ago, CTM said:

Favre rid us of the noodle virus, he belongs in the ring of honor as far as I'm concerned, Pennington's # should line the urinals of the entire stadium

Trading for Favre was the right move.  He got injured. S happens

[nyjunc]

On 1/23/2021 at 8:23 AM, CTM said:

Yeah and you worship Penny who blew 2 playoff games and completely thrashed what 3 other seasons due to being as sturdy as a faberge egg . Complely wasting the nucleus of talent Parcells brought in

 Good point.

Which 2 playoff games did he blow?

 

 Parcells did an awful job as GM

[nyjunc]

On 1/23/2021 at 8:32 AM, CTM said:

That about says it all, im sure you dont really think think that  Vinnys 4 passes had more impact on that game than  Chad's 34 passes , so the fact that you need to create fictious talking points to support your conclusion might bely its inherent weakenss.

Chad took a playoff caliber team to the playoffs, had a great 3 game run to close the season and start the playoffs, was terrible in divisional round and pretty mediocre the rest of the year, and you are here almost 2 decades later still singing his praises for this exceedingly mundane achievement. Lol

The team was really struggling when he took over, he led us back from the abyss and won only or second EVER AFC East title.

On 1/23/2021 at 12:37 PM, Philc1 said:

Trading for Favre was the right move.  He got injured. S happens

It was the wrong move and he doesn't get an injury excuse.  He made his name playing through pain, he wasn't good early in the season and he wasn't good late. He cost us a legitimate Super bowl possiblity while Chad took a team with half the talent to the division title

[CTM]

9 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Which 2 playoff games did he blow?

 

 Parcells did an awful job as GM

When you have pathetic QB play against Oakland 2002 and Pitts 2006 you dont win playoff games.

[nyjunc]

4 minutes ago, CTM said:

When you have pathetic QB play against Oakland 2002 and Pitts 2006 you dont win playoff games.

The team played poorly in Oakland, our OL was dominated that day and even with that it was a tie game late in the third qtr.

 

We give Favre an injury excuse but Chad playing with a torn rotator cuff doesn't get one?  Even with that we were one of 2 missed, makeable kicks away from winning.  That game was 2004 by the way.

[Bleedin Green]

47 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

The team played poorly in Oakland, our OL was dominated that day and even with that it was a tie game late in the third qtr.

 

We give Favre an injury excuse but Chad playing with a torn rotator cuff doesn't get one?  Even with that we were one of 2 missed, makeable kicks away from winning.  That game was 2004 by the way.

The offense scored 3 points in 4 and 1/2 quarters of the 2004 Pitt game.  The game being close was 100% in spite of the noodle, who was a completely useless pile of crap that day.

Also, 10 total points scored and getting shut out in the second half vs the 2002 Raiders is an indictment, not a defense.  The noodle turned the ball over their last 6 consecutive drives.

Thanks for the reminder that the 2006 game was his other laughably bad playoff performance vs the Pats, where he personally scored nearly as many points for NE (10) as the Jets (13).

[Joe W. Namath]

Its been over 10 years and we still have threads about Chad Pennington.  An all time jet great.  Lets keep talking about him.  This is awesome!

[nyjunc]

20 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

The offense scored 3 points in 4 and 1/2 quarters of the 2004 Pitt game.  The game being close was 100% in spite of the noodle, who was a completely useless pile of crap that day.

Also, 10 total points scored and getting shut out in the second half vs the 2002 Raiders is an indictment, not a defense.  The noodle turned the ball over their last 6 consecutive drives.

Thanks for the reminder that the 2006 game was his other laughably bad playoff performance vs the Pats, where he personally scored nearly as many points for NE (10) as the Jets (13).

He was playing the best D in the league on the road with a torn rotator cuff.  We lost because our kicker missed 2 FGs in the span of about a minute or so when we needed just one of those kicks to win.

 

Remind me again how Fitz and favre did in the playoffs? Both had more talented teams around them they the 2006 Jets.