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Cimini Wants Watson, But Can't Afford Him


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4 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

I still do not get this at all in he least.  Houston won FOUR games last year with him playing at a high level!

Will the jets be a lot better at QB?  for sure!  Will they be contenders?  Live in a dream world some more.

Yes, because the correct assumption to make is that the 2021 Jets will be exactly like the 2020 Jets/Texans.

New coach, new players (with our 2nd most cap space in the league and picks) and the 2021 Jets will be just as bad as the 2020 Texans.  Makes perfect sense.

And so what if the 2021 Jets end up going, say, 6-10 or so with Watson at QB?  Watson would then be 26 years old.  This isn't a 1-year plan we're talking about here.

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1 hour ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I mean Sam was the worst starting QB in the NFL in 2020. He sucks.

The offense was noticeably more dynamic with Joe Flacco, an aging backup quality player in there.

Do the "weaponz" need to be upgraded? Sure. But Darnold and Gase were the two worst components of the offense last year.

How confident are you that Sam is trash with a new system, a RB under the age of 35 and a WR1 not named Perriman?

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21 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You guys, if/when the Texans trade Watson away, I bet those fans will be super excited about all those picks and all that cap space.  

If I had to guess, in 6 months from now we’ll all be excited to see this new super charged rookie roster and Sam in a do or die battle with a veteran. Jd is new to this team still and Saleh only days old. Our impatience is a function of decades of frustration. They’ll likely settle on a “let’s get the roster right so whomever is under center is set up for success” methodology.

I think as fans we’ve been harder than necessary on Fields at times and vice versa with his successes. I would guess the brass feels they have time on their side and will act accordingly and pass  

we just gotta hang in there a little longer. 

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Just now, Paradis said:

If I had to guess, in 6 months from now we’ll all be excited to see this new super charged rookie roster and Sam in a do or die battle with a veteran. Jd is new to this team still and Saleh only days old. Our impatience is a function of decades of frustration. They’ll likely settle on a “let’s get the roster right so whomever is under center is set up for success” methodology. 

we just gotta hang in there a little longer. 

No end result where Sam Darnold is the unquestioned starter of the 2021 Jets will give me any excitement whatsoever.  That I can guarantee.  

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2 minutes ago, peekskill68 said:

How confident are you that Sam is trash with a new system, a RB under the age of 35 and a WR1 not named Perriman?

Pretty confident. 

It would be historically unprecedented for a QB to be as bad as Sam was this year and turn into anything of note.

My honest take -- if you put him on a loaded team with a great coach (say, Rams with McVay or 9ers with Shanahan) he could replicate the success of guys like Goff and Garappolo who aren't really value add guys.

But I would be extremely confident he'll never be a consistently good QB in this league.

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2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

No end result where Sam Darnold is the unquestioned starter of the 2021 Jets will give me any excitement whatsoever.  That I can guarantee.  

I understand. I said do or die duel with a Vet. Ultimately unless he does a 180 we’ll be talking QB next year with a roster 70% more able to support that player. 

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I'd like to add a few thoughts to the discussion - probably reiterating what others have said elsewhere but I haven't read through the entire thread.

Watson's deal is going to be cheap on the back end. It's a good contract.

The Jets have almost no salary cap commitments out past this season - it's a few draft picks and the offensive linemen.

I also really think if you look at how Shanahan offenses are built, the focus beyond QB is on the line and that alpha WR who gets peppered with targets and the cover 3 defenses are way less focused on serious investments in corners and off ball linebackers than having a strong defensive line and that safety who can cover.

So much of those systems are designed to play to guys' strengths and utilize unconventional skill sets that I genuinely believe the serious investments on offense are going to be at QB, one alpha WR, and some ancillary stuff ironing out the line that I think will be less than most expect and on defense it's going to be the edge spot and whether or not Saleh thinks he's got the free safety to make it work in Maye or Davis.

They're not taking Najee Harris or Travis Etienne in the first round to run a Shanahan scheme. Corner and off ball linebacker probably aren't that high on the list either - mid round stuff. The 49ers running back room was cobbled together from reject veterans. Saleh's starting linebackers were at 2018 third round pick, a 2019 fifth round pick, and a 2019 UDFA and that's without injuries.

I really think Douglas has more wiggle room as they put this thing together than most give it credit for. And pass rushers will be a point of emphasis just as much as getting the offense right.

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11 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Pretty confident. 

It would be historically unprecedented for a QB to be as bad as Sam was this year and turn into anything of note.

My honest take -- if you put him on a loaded team with a great coach (say, Rams with McVay or 9ers with Shanahan) he could replicate the success of guys like Goff and Garappolo who aren't really value add guys.

But I would be extremely confident he'll never be a consistently good QB in this league.

^sums it up for me nicely.  This.

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8 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Pretty confident. 

It would be historically unprecedented for a QB to be as bad as Sam was this year and turn into anything of note.

My honest take -- if you put him on a loaded team with a great coach (say, Rams with McVay or 9ers with Shanahan) he could replicate the success of guys like Goff and Garappolo who aren't really value add guys.

But I would be extremely confident he'll never be a consistently good QB in this league.

Fair comment.  Respect it. I take a slightly different view.  Here was the QB rankings after Sam's rookie year.  Note who was behind him, and now note who is playing in the AFC title game this weekend.  Unless JD and Saleh are convinced Sam is unfixable, I'd like to see him work one more year without Gase before I toss him overboard...

 

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15 minutes ago, peekskill68 said:

Fair comment.  Respect it. I take a slightly different view.  Here was the QB rankings after Sam's rookie year.  Note who was behind him, and now note who is playing in the AFC title game this weekend.  Unless JD and Saleh are convinced Sam is unfixable, I'd like to see him work one more year without Gase before I toss him overboard...

 

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What you guys keep ignoring is that Sam has three years of mediocre to poor play under his belt. The chances of developing into a good NFL QB are much, much, much (much) higher between years 1-2 or 2-3 then they are after year 3. This is illustrated by the fact that there are very (very) few examples of guys turning into good NFL QBs after 3 full seasons of not being a good NFL QB.

Meanwhile, there are many examples of guys turning into good NFL QBs after a bad rookie season. 

Bottom line - you are treating Sam like this is January of 2019, but it's January of 2021. 

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3 hours ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

Another hawt take:

The #2, a first rounder next year, and one in 2023 does not leave us particularly weak in draft capital over the next several years. We'd only be without a first round pick in 2023. 

That, along with our cap space, still gives us the ability to build the roster after a Watson trade. 

So you think all it’ll take to land Deshaun Watson is a first round pick in each of the next three years? 

Yea, definitely a “hawt take”.

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25 minutes ago, peekskill68 said:

Fair comment.  Respect it. I take a slightly different view.  Here was the QB rankings after Sam's rookie year.  Note who was behind him, and now note who is playing in the AFC title game this weekend.  Unless JD and Saleh are convinced Sam is unfixable, I'd like to see him work one more year without Gase before I toss him overboard...

 

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Yeah, but we aren't talking about a rookie QB are we? 

I wasn't selling Sam after his rookie year -- I was actually optimistic after his strong finish. I was hoping he would take a big leap in year two, and even though he didn't I was still optimistic.

I was hoping he'd take a big leap this year and not only did he fail to do that he absolutely cratered and had the worst season of any QB in the NFL.

The idea that after three years of below average play where he regressed in year three -- but we're holding out hope he can be saved? It just seems incredibly unlikely to me.

Gase or not, injuries or not, the way he played this year was just nowhere near good enough. He has the same issues he's always had (happy feet, bad mechanics, bad decision making) and seems to have developed new ones (his deep ball accuracy has gotten worse each year he's been in the NFL.)

If we were picking 11th again I wouldn't want to reach on a QB. But the 2nd overall pick is a premium selection where you can get a high end QB prospect. With the 2022 class looking fairly weak it seems like a massive gamble to pass on that, IMO.

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4 hours ago, Jets723 said:

Boom

What more do you want from Watson? Worst running game in the league, mediocre offensive line, average receivers, no tight end yet he still posts almost 5K yards, 33 touchdowns, and only 7 interceptions? Just curious at this point. This is the biggest piece to the puzzle. We’ve been trying for nearly 50 years to have a franchise QB - Make the move. This is literally a no brainer. 
 

When do you ever see a franchise QB, who has yet to enter his prime by the way, come on the market? 
 

Imagine having a coach that players want to play for. Now imagine having a coach that players want to play for with a team that has a franchise QB. This is something that is not even worth thinking about. 

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8 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Yeah, but we aren't talking about a rookie QB are we? 

I wasn't selling Sam after his rookie year -- I was actually optimistic after his strong finish. I was hoping he would take a big leap in year two, and even though he didn't I was still optimistic.

I was hoping he'd take a big leap this year and not only did he fail to do that he absolutely cratered and had the worst season of any QB in the NFL.

The idea that after three years of below average play where he regressed in year three -- but we're holding out hope he can be saved? It just seems incredibly unlikely to me.

Gase or not, injuries or not, the way he played this year was just nowhere near good enough. He has the same issues he's always had (happy feet, bad mechanics, bad decision making) and seems to have developed new ones (his deep ball accuracy has gotten worse each year he's been in the NFL.)

If we were picking 11th again I wouldn't want to reach on a QB. But the 2nd overall pick is a premium selection where you can get a high end QB prospect. With the 2022 class looking fairly weak it seems like a massive gamble to pass on that, IMO.

I would trade for Watson and lock in the most critical position.

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3 hours ago, Darnold Schwarzenegger said:

I'm shocked at how many people don't want deshaun watson.

Shocked. 

It makes 0 sense to me.

Seattle gifted us 2 1st rounders. We add in 2 of our own and we have a franchise qb for the next 15 years.

What am I missing? 

 

You’re missing nothing. This is literally a no-brainer. Make the decision JD! 

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10 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Devil's Advocate:  Why? 

More specifically, what can't we fix or can't we do because we make the rumoured 2021 #2 + 2022 Seattle Pick #1 + 2023 Jets #1 for Watson trade?

Because this is the most depleted roster in the NFL and Watson isn't good enough to make a trash team good- as proven last year. He went 4-12 with 2 wins against the Jaguars.  

#2, 34, 2022 1st and 2023 1st equates to 6-7 premium pick players if we trade down from 2 netting us say an extra 2nd and 1st next year. 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

What you guys keep ignoring is that Sam has three years of mediocre to poor play under his belt. The chances of developing into a good NFL QB are much, much, much (much) higher between years 1-2 or 2-3 then they are after year 3. This is illustrated by the fact that there are very (very) few examples of guys turning into good NFL QBs after 3 full seasons of not being a good NFL QB.

Meanwhile, there are many examples of guys turning into good NFL QBs after a bad rookie season. 

Bottom line - you are treating Sam like this is January of 2019, but it's January of 2021. 

No argument.  However, the risk/reward of Sam being coached up into a functioning QB who can win vs. the haul JD can acquire by trading out of the #2 and building up the team is worth it to me to give him another year without Gase.  

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1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yes, because the correct assumption to make is that the 2021 Jets will be exactly like the 2020 Jets/Texans.

New coach, new players (with our 2nd most cap space in the league and picks) and the 2021 Jets will be just as bad as the 2020 Texans.  Makes perfect sense.

And so what if the 2021 Jets end up going, say, 6-10 or so with Watson at QB?  Watson would then be 26 years old.  This isn't a 1-year plan we're talking about here.

Just give me realistic compensation projections dude.  Rather than 3 first as if they are this year and two 20 something picks.

Could be a top 2 pick another top 5 pick and then some.

You are the one projecting the jets will be tons better with cap space (like that has helped us in the past).  I am working on established results, 4 wins with watson being great.  The jets were lucky to win two games this year.

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30 minutes ago, Ghost said:

What more do you want from Watson? Worst running game in the league, mediocre offensive line, average receivers, no tight end yet he still posts almost 5K yards, 33 touchdowns, and only 7 interceptions? Just curious at this point. This is the biggest piece to the puzzle. We’ve been trying for nearly 50 years to have a franchise QB - Make the move. This is literally a no brainer. 
 

When do you ever see a franchise QB, who has yet to enter his prime by the way, come on the market? 
 

Imagine having a coach that players want to play for. Now imagine having a coach that players want to play for with a team that has a franchise QB. This is something that is not even worth thinking about. 

And he is going to a team with: "bad running game, mediocre offensive line, average receivers, no tight end "

But with the jets we are going to be playoff contender, cause.....jets

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2 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Just give me realistic compensation projections dude.  Rather than 3 first as if they are this year and two 20 something picks.

Could be a top 2 pick another top 5 pick and then some.

You are the one projecting the jets will be tons better with cap space (like that has helped us in the past).  I am working on established results, 4 wins with watson being great.  The jets were lucky to win two games this year.

Cap space hasn't helped in the past because of incompetent GM work, not the cap space itself.  Joe Douglas has proven to be competent.  And as I noted before, FA WR's want to be paired with QB's that will help them be productive.  Not Sam f**kin Darnold.

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1 minute ago, tfine said:

It’s amazing how this board dropped Darnold like a bad habit as soon as Watson became available....and we don’t even know if he wants to play here or how much it will cost. Lol


Sent from my iPad using JetNation.com mobile app

Darnold has been dropped by almost the whole forum before watson was ever mentioned so that is not new.

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32 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Yeah, but we aren't talking about a rookie QB are we? 

I wasn't selling Sam after his rookie year -- I was actually optimistic after his strong finish. I was hoping he would take a big leap in year two, and even though he didn't I was still optimistic.

I was hoping he'd take a big leap this year and not only did he fail to do that he absolutely cratered and had the worst season of any QB in the NFL.

The idea that after three years of below average play where he regressed in year three -- but we're holding out hope he can be saved? It just seems incredibly unlikely to me.

Gase or not, injuries or not, the way he played this year was just nowhere near good enough. He has the same issues he's always had (happy feet, bad mechanics, bad decision making) and seems to have developed new ones (his deep ball accuracy has gotten worse each year he's been in the NFL.)

If we were picking 11th again I wouldn't want to reach on a QB. But the 2nd overall pick is a premium selection where you can get a high end QB prospect. With the 2022 class looking fairly weak it seems like a massive gamble to pass on that, IMO.

Good points, all.  I'm not sure I agree on all the physical issues, and I think the happy feet have gotten worse due to bad OL play.  The biggest issues with Sam have always been mental (bad reads, hesitancy, dumb throws/turnovers) and his confidence is shot.   I'd like to see if upgrades in scheme and coaching can fix enough of that so he can win before I dump him.  JMO...

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5 hours ago, shuler82 said:

#1 there’s already 273 threads on Watson.

#2 it’s lazy reporting.  3 first rounders(2021,2022,2023) still leaves you with Seattle’s first in 2021 and 2022. Plus whatever they get from unloading Sam ...plus one of the best cap situations in football. All that with a franchise QB in place. 

Yep. "How will you build your team if you trade for an elite QB and therefore only have 1 first round pick for each of the next two years and none in 3 years?" - i.e. how can you manage with 1 less first round pick than usual and an elite QB - is not a question that makes very much sense at all.

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5 hours ago, slimjasi said:

I tend to agree with Cimini that Douglas will be extremely reluctant to trade away too much of his draft capital. 

Unfortunately, I think the bidding war will make the price considerably higher than 3 first round picks. Something more like 3 1sts and 3 2nds. At the end of the day, I don't see Douglas doing that. 

That probably depends on what Miami does.   Not really a huge Watson mania down here like with the Jets.  Miami has announced that Tua will be start next year, they seem happy with him. (of course that could change)   Out of curiosity i went to Fin Haven this morning to see what they were talking about.   There was only 1 thread, and it was a poll.  67% of the fans wanted to keep Tua, and let Watson go.  I was really surprised.

Going to be interesting to see how this plays out.  if I'm Douglas I  contact the Texans and ask permission to talk to Watson for starters, and see what happens next

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1 hour ago, tfine said:

It’s amazing how this board dropped Darnold like a bad habit as soon as Watson became available....and we don’t even know if he wants to play here or how much it will cost. Lol


Sent from my iPad using JetNation.com mobile app

"as soon as Watson became available?"

The vast majority of the board was over Darnold after any one of his many poor performances this season. (I was highly skeptical after opening day, myself). The rest of the board was over Darnold sometime last year. 

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56 minutes ago, QB1 said:

Because this is the most depleted roster in the NFL

Ok Nico, we agree we're pretty thin on talent, especially and specifically at #1 QB and offense.

56 minutes ago, QB1 said:

and Watson isn't good enough to make a trash team good- as proven last year.

He's good enough to put up 4,800, 70%, 33/7 at QB despite on a borken, dysfunctional complete trash team.

Is Darnold?  Is Fields?  Is Wilson? Is any other QB we could obtain more cheaply?

56 minutes ago, QB1 said:

He went 4-12 with 2 wins against the Jaguars.

And 10-6 and 11-5 the two years previous.  Lets not pretend Covid20' was Watson's first and only year.

56 minutes ago, QB1 said:

  #2, 34, 2022 1st and 2023 1st equates to 6-7 premium pick players if we trade down from 2 netting us say an extra 2nd and 1st next year. 

Why stop at 7, why not say it's 27 guaranteed elite players, including three better QB's? ?  Hyperbole doesn't help your argument here.

What they in fact are is a 50/50 shot, a shot to draft three first round players over three season who may or may not be good, much less great, and in the meanwhile we either play Darnold (worst QB in NFL) or a rookie like Fields or Wilson.  

JD could pick three #1's that all would be great, including a QB at #2 this year, presuming either Wilson or Fields are that good. 

What do we think the actual odds are of that?  That either Wilson of Fields will be a 4,800 yard, 70%, 33/7 type QB immediately in the NFL?  Watson is that today.  If we take what JD says, he might just stick with Darnold.

The usual crapshoot draft odds say those 3x #1 picks are in fact one very good/great player, one good, and one bust player over those three years.

Let's say the Jets also surprise me, and land Robinson (a #1 QB) and Thunney (A #1 Guard), like so many fans hope, a long with a few lower cost players and our remaining picks (including #23, #36 and both 3rd rounders)? 

Are we still "depleted" then?  

I think you have it twisted, we're horrible because of two people primarily:  Gase and Darnold.  Gase is gone, Darnold is replaced in this scenario with a top-end passer/producer.

I'm not going to hyperbole myself and say we "must" make such a trade or get puffy about it, in point of fact I tend to be much more the "no, frugal, build through the draft" kinda fan myself and can see that route also working, as I did before this rumour started. 

But I also cannot look at a Watson + Robinson + #23, 2nd, 2x 3rd's and feel we're unable to still build even without the picks.  If we had only one #1, maybe I'd feel differently, but the first year we'd lack a #1 would be 2023.  And we'd have all of other picks still in hand.  Plenty of picks to keep building with, while actually competing and trying to win now as well. 

If they go this route, things will definitely not be boring in 2021, and we're definitely not a 4 win team, that I do believe.  Watson is instantly the best QB to wear Jets green since at least Namath (and probably ever).  He puts up an average season, and he not just breaks every Jets QB all-time record, but breaks them by miles.  I wouldn't cry watching that happen, even if it meant we get a few less Jets draftees from Adams departure.

 

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46 minutes ago, flgreen said:

That probably depends on what Miami does.   Not really a huge Watson mania down here like with the Jets.  Miami has announced that Tua will be start next year, they seem happy with him. (of course that could change)   Out of curiosity i went to Fin Haven this morning to see what they were talking about.   There was only 1 thread, and it was a poll.  67% of the fans wanted to keep Tua, and let Watson go.  I was really surprised.

Going to be interesting to see how this plays out.  if I'm Douglas I  contact the Texans and ask permission to talkk to Watson for starters, and see what happens next

Yep, I saw the finheaven thread. I'm not that surprised because they had success with Tua and they have only seen him for like 9 games. The team success the dolphins had this year likely buys Tua time the same way the Jets success in 2009 and 2010 brought Sanchez time. 

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1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

And he is going to a team with: "bad running game, mediocre offensive line, average receivers, no tight end "

But with the jets we are going to be playoff contender, cause.....jets

Are we definitely going to have a bad running game, mediocre O-line, average WR's and no TE in 2021?

If so, why draft a QB at all, why not just forfeit and go 0-16?  Hell, why even dress on Sundays, eh?

Are we so broken we can't think the team can improve at all, forevermore?

I have to presume that JD and Co. are going to sign some dudes, and draft some dudes, to try and get better.  Would you agree?

And I presume we will have to play a QB.  I mean unless we go with the Super I formation all season with 4x RB's and no WR's,  Could happen.

I guess as pessimistic as I am, I can't understand your mindset, it basically boils down to "nothing we do can work, so don't try".

 

 

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1 minute ago, Warfish said:

Are we definitely going to have a bad running game, mediocre O-line, average WR's and no TE in 2021?

If so, why draft a QB at all, why not just forfeit and go 0-16?  Hell, why even dress on Sundays, eh?

Are we so broken we can't think the team can improve at all, forevermore?

I have to presume that JD and Co. are going to sign some dudes, and draft some dudes, to try and get better.  Would you agree?

And I presume we will have to play a QB.  I mean unless we go with the Super I formation all season with 4x RB's and no WR's,  Could happen.

I guess as pessimistic as I am, I can't understand your mindset, it basically boils down to "nothing we do can work, so don't try".

 

 

People are saying 'Get Watson at all costs and he will make us a contender!"

Houston won 4 games with him last year playing well.

The jets have the worst talent in the league.

To get watson we are not getting high end prospects to help out.

I'm not taking any issue with the team looking at his availability.

I take no issue with him being a big impovemnt over our present Qb.

I take issue with the comments I am seeing about doing whatever it takes and that we will be much improved right off the hop.

 

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2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yes, because the correct assumption to make is that the 2021 Jets will be exactly like the 2020 Jets/Texans.

New coach, new players (with our 2nd most cap space in the league and picks) and the 2021 Jets will be just as bad as the 2020 Texans.  Makes perfect sense.

And so what if the 2021 Jets end up going, say, 6-10 or so with Watson at QB?  Watson would then be 26 years old.  This isn't a 1-year plan we're talking about here.

It defeats the purpose of Watson shooting his way out of Texas 

He can stay in Houston and go 6-10 and not pay income tax. 

I've yet to see any kind of rational explanation why Watson would want this deal. 

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9 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

People are saying 'Get Watson at all costs and he will make us a contender!"

Having a top 5 QB and literally anyone other than Gase would, IMO, make us materially more competitive even without a single other change. 

That is how much I believe real problems with the Coach and the QB bust.

9 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Houston won 4 games with him last year playing well.

And they won 10 and 11 games before that. 

Surely you see that a 4 win season is not on the back of a 4,800 yard, 70%, 33 TD/7 INT QB, right?  That this is the "team" part of show that was their problem. 

9 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

The jets have the worst talent in the league.

To get watson we are not getting high end prospects to help out.

So Watson, and any top-end Free Agents having Watson (and Saleh) help us sign, aren't high end prospects in your book?  

So lets be clear:  Because we have an extra #1 pick in 2021 and 22, we're able to rebuild and compete. 

But without that one pick in 2021 and 2022, we're completely unable to change being the least talented team in the NFL?

Is that the theory?

9 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

I'm not taking any issue with the team looking at his availability.

I take no issue with him being a big impovemnt over our present Qb.

I take issue with the comments I am seeing about doing whatever it takes and that we will be much improved right off the hop.

So I'll agree, "whatever it takes" is too open ended.

2021 #2, 2022 Seattle #1 Pick, 2023 Jets #1.  That deal.  Is that deal too much?  Does that deal make signing FA and drafting players impossible?

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25 minutes ago, Warfish said:

 

I have to presume that JD and Co. are going to sign some dudes, and draft some dudes, to try and get better.  Would you agree?

Warfish you and I have been Jets fans for years together over multiple boards 

They never make this deal. Woody Johnson heard that Watson is due 30 mil per season and did a spit take. Tea got all over the crumpets. 

The whole point of the rookie pay scale is to exploit the cheap labor and trade the player for picks one day. 

The Jets don't trade FOR expensive players. That's the opposite of everything this franchise stands for. 

The Jets won't want to pay Watson 

JD doesn't want to lose his precious draft picks 

Coach Saleh said there are no shortcuts. He said that today. 

And most relevant, Watson's not going to want to waive his no trade clause for a bunch of promises about who they are going to sign in FA. 

This might be a deal the fans want and the media is hyping but it makes no sense to anyone involved 

 

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