I don't want Watson, I want a better team

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

Do you think going from the worst QB in the league to one of the 5 best QB in the league would have a significant impact on the W/L record of the team? Asking for a friend.

Nah bro.  The 2020 Texans went 4-12, so that means the Jets will go 4-12.  Forever.

[Skeet Ulrich]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

Nah bro.  The 2020 Texans went 4-12, so that means the Jets will go 4-12.  Forever.

It's not about Watson at all, it's about Darnold. People have this belief that Darnold is actually really good - the team around him was so awful(true) that it made him look awful. Ergo, it doesn't matter what QB you bring in, they will all look bad.

The problem is you're absolving Darnold of any sin here. The team is awful, but he's a part of why they're awful.

[JohnnyLV]

Just now, Skeet Ulrich said:

It's not about Watson at all, it's about Darnold. People have this belief that Darnold is actually really good - the team around him was so awful(true) that it made him look awful. Ergo, it doesn't matter what QB you bring in, they will all look bad.

The problem is you're absolving Darnold of any sin here. The team is awful, but he's a part of why they're awful.

I have been a pretty big Darnold proponent but it seems to me that the Darnold window has sort of closed. Drafting a QB or trading for Watson as long as we retain #2 are much better options for starting a new regime.

[Irish Jet]

Just now, johnnysd said:

I have been a pretty big Darnold proponent but it seems to me that the Darnold window has sort of closed. Drafting a QB or trading for Watson as long as we retain #2 are much better options for starting a new regime.

Almost certainly not getting him without the #2. That will be there first demand.

If we had Deshaun Watson we wouldn't trade him for 8 first round picks. This guy is the absolute ideal scenario you can get from a draft pick. The Jets haven't hit on a pick like that since Revis and even then I'd say Watson is more valuable. Only Mahomes is clearly more valuable in the NFL.

But if it doesn't happen we'll draft Wilson or Fields and they'll bust spectacularly because of course they will. 

[Beerfish]

10 minutes ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

Do you think going from the worst QB in the league to one of the 5 best QB in the league would have a significant impact on the W/L record of the team? Asking for a friend.

Significant?  What is significant?  from 2 wins to 4?

Unless you feel the NY Jets have vastly more talent across the board than Houston there is no basis to think the Jets will be an 8 or 9 or 10 win team.

[Jet Nut]

Go from the worst passing team in the NFL to Watson who led the NFL in passing yards, threw 33 TDs to only 7 INTs and we'll be a much improved team.  

Trying to figure out why the choice is adding a top of the league QB and being a good team.

 

[JohnnyLV]

2 hours ago, Beerfish said:

I'd rather have the possibility of getting:

a #1 WR or TE

a #1 Cb or #1 rush end

a #1 RB

a #1 OG

all in one draft

and have three 1st round picks next year to address the QB position than Watson.

Watson had a great year at Houston, they won 4 games, 4 of the top 8 passing QBs missed the playoffs.

With you

[Skeet Ulrich]

Just now, Beerfish said:

Significant?  What is significant?  from 2 wins to 4?

Unless you feel the NY Jets have vastly more talent across the board than Houston there is no basis to think the Jets will be an 8 or 9 or 10 win team.

I think it's never as simple as that, there's a lot of moving parts in terms of other roster and personnel. Houston is one of the few teams that rival the Jets in terms of mismanagement and poor ownership.  I do know that money talks and bullsh*t walks. QB is the most important position in the sport - they're paid like it and for good reason - and the Jets have by far the worst starting QB in the league. They need to fix that, immediately.

[Irish Jet]

8 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Unless you feel the NY Jets have vastly more talent across the board than Houston there is no basis to think the Jets will be an 8 or 9 or 10 win team.

We actually do. The Texans are dogsh*t. 

Did you ever watch their defence?

It's rare that you can know a player will run for 200 yards before a game but there wasn't a f*cking soul who didn't know that's exactly what Derrick Henry and the Titans would do. 

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, Beerfish said:

I'd rather have the possibility of getting:

a #1 WR or TE

a #1 Cb or #1 rush end

a #1 RB

a #1 OG

all in one draft

and have three 1st round picks next year to address the QB position than Watson.

Watson had a great year at Houston, they won 4 games, 4 of the top 8 passing QBs missed the playoffs.

 

This sounds great and all but as you say its "possibility".  I like Douglas as a GM, but if you only get 2 of the things you listed in one draft, you're pretty happy.  A good CB and RB, or a good TE and EDGE, don't add up to a franchise QB.  

[Warfish]

34 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Significant?  What is significant?  from 2 wins to 4?

Unless you feel the NY Jets have vastly more talent across the board than Houston there is no basis to think the Jets will be an 8 or 9 or 10 win team.

So in your view, how do the Jets become a 8-10 win team in 2021?

"They can't" isn't an option.

[Augustiniak]

29 minutes ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

I think it's never as simple as that, there's a lot of moving parts in terms of other roster and personnel. Houston is one of the few teams that rival the Jets in terms of mismanagement and poor ownership.  I do know that money talks and bullsh*t walks. QB is the most important position in the sport - they're paid like it and for good reason - and the Jets have by far the worst starting QB in the league. They need to fix that, immediately.

With douglas if the jets trade for a qb it will not be Watson, who would cost way too much,  they’d go with a cheaper vet and draft one as well.  Douglas is committed to building thru the draft and isn’t compromising that plan to get Watson.  I still think odds are, darnold is gone in April.

[CanadaSteve]

3 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Joe Flacco was more than competent under center in the exact same circumstances.  Meaning Darnold is worse than a 35-year old, disinterested QB who had 1 foot in retirement.  

The only QB Darnold is definitely better than is Luke Falk.  The rest of the league's QB's, its very much up for debate.

Its both true that the Jets roster and coaching were terrible AND Darnold is also terrible.  These aren't mutually exclusive.  The Jets being bad does not make Darnold good.  In fact, it should be quite easy to accept that bad teams draft bad QB's like Darnold.  Just like the Jets drafted bad QB's in Mark Sanchez and Geno Smith. 

This isn't hard to figure out.  Darnold isn't secretly awesome.  He's exactly what we've seen on the field for 3 seasons.  A guy who misses open receivers constantly (and has no real ability to "throw them open"), can't make presnap reads, constantly looks confused, throws off his back foot into traffic, and can't stay healthy.  He'll give you 2-3 good games a year, a few "OK ones" and about 8-9 terrible ones.  That's not a starting caliber NFL QB.  

Sorry Jetsfan80, I just disagree about Darnold.

I don't think he is terrible, and I am not alone in this.  There seem to be LOTS of pundits around the NFL who think Darnold is worth a look.  I am truly amazed at how everyone seems to think that a highly touted prospect coming out of college should ALL be able to just jump right into the hardest sporting position in the world and do well without ANY coaching or competency around them.

He is STILL one of the youngest starting QB's in this league after three years.  If he doesn't play on this team....fine.  Whatever.  But he will start for another team for at least a year. 

 

[DJF71]

Watson has the ability to elevate the mediocre talent we already have and that’s before he attracts some decent FAs. Hell he made Chad Hansen look like a decent receiver.

Yup he elevated the Texans to 4-12

[JohnnyLV]

46 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

Almost certainly not getting him without the #2. That will be there first demand.

If we had Deshaun Watson we wouldn't trade him for 8 first round picks. This guy is the absolute ideal scenario you can get from a draft pick. The Jets haven't hit on a pick like that since Revis and even then I'd say Watson is more valuable. Only Mahomes is clearly more valuable in the NFL.

But if it doesn't happen we'll draft Wilson or Fields and they'll bust spectacularly because of course they will. 

Our offers will still be stronger without #2. #2 needs to be off the table or we should pass.  JD is not going to just throw value out of the window.  His actions on the Watson deal affect all future trades as well

[Skeet Ulrich]

Just now, CanadaSteve said:

Sorry Jetsfan80, I just disagree about Darnold.

I don't think he is terrible, and I am not alone in this.  There seem to be LOTS of pundits around the NFL who think Darnold is worth a look.  I am truly amazed at how everyone seems to think that a highly touted prospect coming out of college should ALL be able to just jump right into the hardest sporting position in the world and do well without ANY coaching or competency around them.

He is STILL one of the youngest starting QB's in this league after three years.  If he doesn't play on this team....fine.  Whatever.  But he will start for another team for at least a year. 

 

I really don't know how people who say they are Jet fans can see Darnold completely miss wide open receivers, make dumb turnovers game after game and say he's not part of the problem. Meanwhile if you turn on NFL Redzone you see guys with 2 minutes of starting time play 100x more competently than Darnold can 3 years in. That kid Heinicke who started for Washington in the WC game was in Wake Forest grad school 4 weeks ago and pretty much played Brady to a draw on the field. 

[Augustiniak]

4 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

Sorry Jetsfan80, I just disagree about Darnold.

I don't think he is terrible, and I am not alone in this.  There seem to be LOTS of pundits around the NFL who think Darnold is worth a look.  I am truly amazed at how everyone seems to think that a highly touted prospect coming out of college should ALL be able to just jump right into the hardest sporting position in the world and do well without ANY coaching or competency around them.

He is STILL one of the youngest starting QB's in this league after three years.  If he doesn't play on this team....fine.  Whatever.  But he will start for another team for at least a year. 

 

Guys don’t suddenly become great after 3 years of mostly sucky play.  At this point darnold’s best case is maybe 15-20th best qb with some flashes and still with the dud games.  And for those who cite that tannehill improved after leaving gase, his stats with gase were way better than darnold’s.  

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

I really don't know how people who say they are Jet fans can see Darnold completely miss wide open receivers, make dumb turnovers game after game and say he's not part of the problem. Meanwhile if you turn on NFL Redzone you see guys with 2 minutes of starting time play 100x more competently than Darnold can 3 years in. That kid Heinicke who started for Washington in the WC game was in Wake Forest grad school 4 weeks ago and pretty much played Brady to a draw on the field. 

There was a red zone moment for me when minshew was going nuts and darnold was sucking and it hit me that we really didn’t have the qb we thought we drafted.  Hopefully douglas realizes this too.

[Beerfish]

42 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

We actually do. The Texans are dogsh*t. 

Did you ever watch their defence?

It's rare that you can know a player will run for 200 yards before a game but there wasn't a f*cking soul who didn't know that's exactly what Derrick Henry and the Titans would do. 

Houston had a better pass defense than the jets.

Houston is a bad team, so are the jets.

[Beerfish]

17 minutes ago, Warfish said:

So in your view, how do the Jets become a 8-10 win team in 2021?

"They can't" isn't an option.

Why is 'they can't' not an option when that is the most likely thing?

And if i had to answer look at my posts showing the players we could potentially get in the draft if we trade down.

The object of the game is to win the super bowl and to do that you need a team.

[peebag]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

The mantra of people who just don't get it and seemingly never will.  You're smarter than this.  I think.

Deshaun Watson is a good qb.  There's no question on that.

The question is whether trading the available resources that we have on hand (draft picks, available salary cap, etc.) to receive his services would elevate this team to a championship caliber any sooner than building this team up using said resources is what I have concerns about.

 

[Jetsfan80]

14 minutes ago, peebag said:

Deshaun Watson is a good qb.  There's no question on that.

The question is whether trading the available resources that we have on hand (draft picks, available salary cap, etc.) to receive his services would elevate this team to a championship caliber any sooner than building this team up using said resources is what I have concerns about.

If you can guarantee the Jets find a franchise QB within the next 2 drafts, yes you could say that the draft will be the quicker way to build a contender than Watson (with the more limited resulting draft capital) could.  

But since you cannot at all guarantee the Jets will find a franchise QB in the next 2 drafts, this is pretty flawed thinking.  

[Jetsfan80]

24 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Why is 'they can't' not an option when that is the most likely thing?

And if i had to answer look at my posts showing the players we could potentially get in the draft if we trade down.

The object of the game is to win the super bowl and to do that you need a team.

And that team needs a QB.  Only about 12 guys (at most) on the planet at any given time can play at a championship level.  Watson is one of them.  

[Skeet Ulrich]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

If you can guarantee the Jets find a franchise QB within the next 2 drafts, yes you could say that the draft will be the quicker way to build a contender than Watson (with the more limited resulting draft capital) could.  

But since you cannot at all guarantee the Jets will find a franchise QB in the next 2 drafts, this is pretty flawed thinking.  

Clearly it's easy to find a top flight QB for your team, that's the reason the Jets have started Chad/Mark Sanchez/Geno/Darnold/the corpse of Brett Favre/Fitzmagic/McCown/Kellen Clemens/the corpse of Vinny the past 20 years....

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

Clearly it's easy to find a top flight QB for your team, that's the reason the Jets have started Chad/Mark Sanchez/Geno/Darnold/the corpse of Brett Favre/Fitzmagic/McCown/Kellen Clemens/the corpse of Vinny the past 20 years....

So easy.  Just pluck a QB off the QB tree.  But not Watson.  It costs too much.  Trade down and then get one in 2022 because there are always QB's.  #JNlogic

[Philc1]

31 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Houston had a better pass defense than the jets.

Houston is a bad team, so are the jets.

Houston’s roster was significantly better than our roster and they didn’t have the idiot Gase yet Watson won just 2 more games than Sam

[Icer]

15 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

So easy.  Just pluck a QB off the QB tree.  But not Watson.  It costs too much.  Trade down and then get one in 2022 because there are always QB's.  #JNlogic

The best JNlogic is push the envelope back on getting a QB and we can trade up (and use those same picks they dont want to trade) next year to roll the dice again

[peebag]

27 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

If you can guarantee the Jets find a franchise QB within the next 2 drafts, yes you could say that the draft will be the quicker way to build a contender than Watson (with the more limited resulting draft capital) could.  

But since you cannot at all guarantee the Jets will find a franchise QB in the next 2 drafts, this is pretty flawed thinking.  

No, it's not flawed thinking - look at the past playoff history of the Texans with Watson and the talent level they had; did they make a conference championship?  And given what talent is currently on the Jets, do you think that bringing in Watson that we could build a team to even contend for the playoffs before his contract explodes?

These are legitimate questions.

 

[Jetsfan80]

4 minutes ago, peebag said:

No, it's not flawed thinking - look at the past playoff history of the Texans with Watson and the talent level they had; did they make a conference championship?  And given what talent is currently on the Jets, do you think that bringing in Watson that we could build a team to even contend for the playoffs before his contract explodes?

These are legitimate questions.

 

Watson hasn't entered his prime yet.  Meaning he's only going to get better.  In his first full season as a starter, he won the division.  In his 2nd year as a starter, he won a playoff game.  

The "what has he won" stuff is getting really old, really quickly.  He's part of a very small group of players that are the future of this league.  Mahomes being the top of the list and Watson being somewhere in the top 5, maybe even # 2.  

They really aren't legitimate questions, at all.  He's the goods.  He's a guy you can win a championship with.  Period.

[Skeet Ulrich]

1 minute ago, peebag said:

No, it's not flawed thinking - look at the past playoff history of the Texans with Watson and the talent level they had; did they make a conference championship?  And given what talent is currently on the Jets, do you think that bringing in Watson that we could build a team to even contend for the playoffs before his contract explodes?

These are legitimate questions.

 

3-4 year rebuilds aren't a thing. SF was 4-12 in 2018, then 13-3 and 10 mins from winning the SB in 2019(which they lost because they have a sh*tty QB surrounding a stacked team, but that's a different discussion for a different day). 

The idea that it's a long rebuild here is preposterous. You need someone that has some idea what's going on in the GM spot - hopefully that's JD and a competent coaching staff.

[Irish Jet]

1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

Houston had a better pass defense than the jets.

Houston is a bad team, so are the jets.

No they didn’t. We gave up more total yards but they gave up more on average. And largely because teams didn’t need to run on the very worst run defence in the NFL. They have up 5.2 yards per attempt. That is absolutely laughable. The Jets were the 6th best.

The Jets defence isn’t great but it is far, far better than Texans. Take Watson from that Texans team and it is comfortably the worst team in football. He is the franchise.

The Jets also have a ton of cap space to add pieces. The situations aren’t comparable. The biggest weakness of the Jets by an absolute mile is the quarterback. Sam is garbage.

[Augustiniak]

3 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

No they didn’t. We gave up more total yards but they gave up more on average. And largely because teams didn’t need to run on the very worst run defence in the NFL. They have up 5.2 yards per attempt. That is absolutely laughable. 

The Jets defence isn’t great but it is far, far better than Texans. Take Watson from that Texans team and it is comfortably the worst team in football. He is the franchise.

The Jets also have a ton of cap space to add pieces. The situations aren’t comparable. The biggest weakness of the Jets by an absolute mile is the quarterback. Sam is garbage.

i think darnold/gase are so much worse than average, it the jets had trotted rhule/bridgewater out there all year the jets would have won 5-6 games.  and i'm still not buying the darnold love, i think it's all set up to build him up and trade him.  

[CanadaSteve]

1 hour ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

I really don't know how people who say they are Jet fans can see Darnold completely miss wide open receivers, make dumb turnovers game after game and say he's not part of the problem. Meanwhile if you turn on NFL Redzone you see guys with 2 minutes of starting time play 100x more competently than Darnold can 3 years in. That kid Heinicke who started for Washington in the WC game was in Wake Forest grad school 4 weeks ago and pretty much played Brady to a draw on the field. 

I really don't know how people who say they are Jet fans can't see that young players, catapulted into the spotlight who are expected to be the saviour of a franchise whose last 2 GM's were quite possibly the worst at drafting in team history, can't understand such actions have consequences.  That Asking a 20 year old chill California kid to put one of the worst rosters on his shoulders and carry them to the promise land doesn't work.  But actually putting talent around him and coaching him would.

So,......Do we want to keep playing this merry-go-round?  You don't have to agree with me.  I would take Deshaun Watson at the right price.  And if Saleh and JD decide to give Darnold another year, I'm okay with that too.  You know, the guys that actually work in football.

[JoJoTownsell1]

1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

Houston had a better pass defense than the jets.

Houston is a bad team, so are the jets.

Houston had Watson throwing for 4900 yards, 33tds/7 Ints and had pretty much the same record as the Jets.

How anyone can think both teams were equally bad is comical unless you think Watson is about as valuable as Darnold.....

[Augustiniak]

3 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

Houston had Watson throwing for 4900 yards, 33tds/7 Ints and had pretty much the same record as the Jets.

How anyone can think both teams were equally bad is comical unless you think Watson is about as valuable as Darnold.....

seriously, the jets D is better than advertised, think how many 3 and outs the O had.  and they may even get mosley back.