I don't want Watson, I want a better team

[Skeet Ulrich]

Just now, CanadaSteve said:

I really don't know how people who say they are Jet fans can't see that young players, catapulted into the spotlight who are expected to be the saviour of a franchise whose last 2 GM's were quite possibly the worst at drafting in team history, can't understand such actions have consequences.  That Asking a 20 year old chill California kid to put one of the worst rosters on his shoulders and carry them to the promise land doesn't work.  But actually putting talent around him and coaching him would.

So,......Do we want to keep playing this merry-go-round?  You don't have to agree with me.  I would take Deshaun Watson at the right price.  And if Saleh and JD decide to give Darnold another year, I'm okay with that too.  You know, the guys that actually work in football.

Darnold is the same guy he was in college. Terrible decisions, sloppy footwork, trying to do too much. He's living off his freshman performance in the Rose Bowl which everyone saw.

Similar career path to Jameis - great freshman year, underwhelming sophomore campaign, drafted, still has flaws from college, disappointment, benched. 

The people saying he has nothing to work with needs to realize that neither do a lot of early-first round quarterbacks and many have shown way more than he has shown in three years starting. Like I said - I get it. People don't want to admit that they were wrong about Darnold being the goods so the narrative has to be the Jets ruined him, when the reality is he was a flawed prospect to begin with.

 

[CanadaSteve]

9 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

The "what has he won" stuff is getting really old, really quickly.  He's part of a very small group of players that are the future of this league.  Mahomes being the top of the list and Watson being somewhere in the top 5, maybe even # 2.  

They really aren't legitimate questions, at all.  He's the goods.  He's a guy you can win a championship with.  Period.

Except that he hasn't won anything.  It's not to say he won't   But to date, he hasn't won anything.  He's 1-2 in the playoffs, and 28-25 in regular season.  If he was drafted by the Jets originally, those numbers would be worse.   He's also torn an ACL, and is proving that he thinks he is bigger than the team.

Be honest Jestfan80: What would you have thought of Jamal Adams had we of signed him to $18 million a year, and then got upset because he wasn't consulted by ownership on the new GM search?  

NOBODY is saying Watson isn't good.  HE IS!  But even if he does come here, he isn't saving this franchise until we put more talent on it....and we can't do that if we use all of our draft capital getting him here.

[CanadaSteve]

Just now, Skeet Ulrich said:

Darnold is the same guy he was in college. Terrible decisions, sloppy footwork, trying to do too much. He's living off his freshman performance in the Rose Bowl which everyone saw.

 

Yeah okay.  Jesus, do I REALLY need to go find all the articles stating he was one of the top QB prospects in the the 2010's?  If I dig hard enough, I'm sure I will find a post where you were excited we got him.

[Irish Jet]

1 minute ago, CanadaSteve said:

Except that he hasn't won anything.  It's not to say he won't   But to date, he hasn't won anything.  He's 1-2 in the playoffs, and 28-25 in regular season.  If he was drafted by the Jets originally, those numbers would be worse.   He's also torn an ACL, and is proving that he thinks he is bigger than the team.

Be honest Jestfan80: What would you have thought of Jamal Adams had we of signed him to $18 million a year, and then got upset because he wasn't consulted by ownership on the new GM search?  

NOBODY is saying Watson isn't good.  HE IS!  But even if he does come here, he isn't saving this franchise until we put more talent on it....and we can't do that if we use all of our draft capital getting him here.

Just listen to this sh*t.

This guy wouldn’t have traded for Peyton Manning after his record breaking season because really, “what has won?”.

Garbage.

[nyjbuddy]

When I first started reading this thread, I was onboard with the OP.  But after reading a few articles on OTC, reading others’ comments and doing a little research, I am beginning to lean more towards Watson.

By building a team, you provide a one or two year window to make a legitimate run at the Super Bowl.  Recent examples are the Giants, Eagles and to some extent the pre-Lamar Jackson Ravens.  These teams won a super bowl, then took several years to rebuild. When teams come together at the right time, it may lead to a deep playoff run and could result in a Super Bowl win.  But the opportunity is short lived.  Most teams after winning a super bowl struggle to maintain without a franchise QB.  Players will retire, leave in free agency or have peaked in their career during the one magical season.  Players with often look for a big pay day after winning the Super Bowl, breaking apart key elements of the team.

On the flip side, franchise QBs provide an organization with more opportunities to compete for the championship.  Franchise QBs get their teams to the playoffs where a team could get hot and make a deep playoff run.  Brees was able to play in 10 post seasons in 20 years.  Roethlisberger: 11 playoffs in 17 seasons, Rodgers 11 playoffs in 16 seasons,  Wilson 8 playoffs in 9 seasons, Brady in 18 of 21 seasons.  Franchise QBs are able to consistently get their team to the playoffs even when the players around them constantly change.  Brady is a great example of this as we saw the Patriots with a former NFL MVP, end their playoff streak while Brady was able to make a deep playoff run with a completely different set of players.  Franchise QBs elevate the players around them and cover up many of the holes on the roster.

With the career length of QBs extending into their 40s while skill position players tend to drop off after 30, the investment into a franchise QB can provide teams nearly 15 years to be competitive.  Several articles on OTC have also opened my eyes to the brevity of the NFL roster.  NFL teams will have only about 50% of their roster under contract in 2 years.  Nearly one-third of a roster is made of UDFA, another third is made up of players drafted between the 4th and 7th rounds while the last third comes from the 1st to 3rd rounds.  The average NFL career length is between 2.5 to 3.5 years.  These all led me to think that building an ideal roster without a franchise QB may only last 3 to 4 years.

[UntouchableCrew]

"I want a better team."

You know what makes a team better? An elite 25 year old QB.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, Augustiniak said:

With douglas if the jets trade for a qb it will not be Watson, who would cost way too much,  they’d go with a cheaper vet and draft one as well.  Douglas is committed to building thru the draft and isn’t compromising that plan to get Watson.  I still think odds are, darnold is gone in April.

I don't know what this is based upon as though it's a rule that may not be broken; he hasn't been here long enough to make that assessment imo. I do think it's a general preference, but we all share that preference if given the apples to apples choice. Wanting to build through the draft doesn't mean the team doesn't spend anything until those drafted players are ready for their 2nd contracts. It also doesn't mean, "We'll just draft our own Watson next year," either, just because it broke a self-imposed rule that never anticipated the 2nd-best QB under 35 years old becoming available.

Darnold was as hotly anticipated and coveted as a QB prospect typically gets. So much so that our empty-headed GM passed on both Watson and Mahomes for the mystery box a year later, got his wish like hitting the lottery, and he won Mark Sanchez without the otherwise-championship roster. 

Next year Douglas may very well have to use at least 2 1st rounders to move up for a QB - if a QB-needy team isn't the one holding the pick we need - except it'll just be a year later. As much as we as fans look at a chart and say, "Yeah but these 1st rounders are a little higher" I don't think most GMs view it quite the same on paper once the player is personified with a sure thing. Also don't discount that those 1st rounders in 2022 will be easier to gauge. Full season (certainly won't have healthy top prospects missing like a month, let alone any who just sat out the whole season), scouts with better/closer access to the players during that season, a full scouting combine, in person interviews, etc. Time will tell, but it doesn't seem far-fetched that this draft will be filled 

[Waka Flocka Flacco]

5 hours ago, Beerfish said:

I'd rather have the possibility of getting:

a #1 WR or TE

a #1 Cb or #1 rush end

a #1 RB

a #1 OG

all in one draft

That's just something like Henry Ruggs, Jeff Okudah, Clyde Edwards-Helaire, Cesar Ruiz.

For Deshaun Watson.

I mean, are you serious?

[CanadaSteve]

6 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

Guys don’t suddenly become great after 3 years of mostly sucky play.  At this point darnold’s best case is maybe 15-20th best qb with some flashes and still with the dud games.  And for those who cite that tannehill improved after leaving gase, his stats with gase were way better than darnold’s.  

Well, we'll have to see what Saleh and JD have to say.  We can all conjecture until the cows come home, but it will be up to HC and GM to decide.

[CanadaSteve]

4 hours ago, Irish Jet said:

Just listen to this sh*t.

This guy wouldn’t have traded for Peyton Manning after his record breaking season because really, “what has won?”.

Garbage.

Yeah, that's what I said.

Well, this has gotten boring.  

Next topic.

[Dunnie]

Why did Watson have his best year statistically without Hopkins? The Texans were just in the divisional round last year and were up 24-3 before BoB went BoB.
I'm not sure how McNair allowing a team chaplain to run his team is Watson's fault.
 
Again - I find it highly comical that you think that Trevor Lawrence(who has yet to take snap 1 in the NFL) is currently better than a guy who has already had established success in the NFL(multiple pro bowls, won divisions, won playoff games, led the NFL in passing).
 
I get it. You don't like Watson for whatever reason. You don't want him on the Jets, that's fair - but don't lie and misrepresent his ability. It makes your point look foolish.

Not lying .. the guy has won two playoff games ... less than Sanchize ... what was his record this year?

I think Watson is a good QB . Not generational ... I dont think he is worth anywhere near 30 million next year ... or his 156 million contract that bought the Texans what exactly?



Sent from my SM-G950U1 using JetNation.com mobile app

[Skeet Ulrich]

1 minute ago, Dunnie said:

Not lying .. the guy has won two playoff games ... less than Sanchize ... what was his record this year?

I think Watson is a good QB . Not generational ... I dont think he is worth anywhere near 30 million next year ... or his 156 million contract that bought the Texans what exactly?



Sent from my SM-G950U1 using JetNation.com mobile app
 

You pay any remotely competent QB 30M AAV. Guys like Wentz, Goff and Cousins get north of 30M AAV and he's better than all of those guys.

Again, you don't like Watson for whatever reason. That's fine - but he's on a very fair contract. 

[Dunnie]

1 hour ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

You pay any remotely competent QB 30M AAV. Guys like Wentz, Goff and Cousins get north of 30M AAV and he's better than all of those guys.

Again, you don't like Watson for whatever reason. That's fine - but he's on a very fair contract. 

whatever ... Watson is the second highest paid QB in the NFL for one reason ... the Texans were very foolish. He ain't Maholmes.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Dunnie

[Skeet Ulrich]

12 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

whatever ... Watson is the second highest paid QB in the NFL for one reason ... the Texans were very foolish. He ain't Maholmes.

Watson is the second highest paid QB in the NFL because he signed his LTE 4 months ago. Lamar Jackson, Baker Mayfield and Josh Allen will be up for their LTEs next year, look at how much they get.

 

[jgb]

6 hours ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

Darnold is the same guy he was in college. Terrible decisions, sloppy footwork, trying to do too much. He's living off his freshman performance in the Rose Bowl which everyone saw.

Similar career path to Jameis - great freshman year, underwhelming sophomore campaign, drafted, still has flaws from college, disappointment, benched. 

The people saying he has nothing to work with needs to realize that neither do a lot of early-first round quarterbacks and many have shown way more than he has shown in three years starting. Like I said - I get it. People don't want to admit that they were wrong about Darnold being the goods so the narrative has to be the Jets ruined him, when the reality is he was a flawed prospect to begin with.

 

[Philc1]

14 hours ago, UntouchableCrew said:

"I want a better team."

You know what makes a team better? An elite 25 year old QB.

How many games did Houston win this season?

[Philc1]

16 hours ago, peebag said:

Deshaun Watson is a good qb.  There's no question on that.

The question is whether trading the available resources that we have on hand (draft picks, available salary cap, etc.) to receive his services would elevate this team to a championship caliber any sooner than building this team up using said resources is what I have concerns about.

 

Watson is good.  Is he worth a package of 3 first round picks including the second pick overall? No

[Sperm Edwards]

7 hours ago, Philc1 said:

How many games did Houston win this season?

That's Watson's fault that opposing QBs had a 108 QB rating & 30 TDs (against only 3 picks), and opposing RBs 2500+ yards & 25 TDs, against the Texans' defense?

WTF does any of that have to do with Watson? Before you say it, it isn't because of his cap number. It was low last year and it'll be low this year.

 

[Irish Jet]

1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

That's Watson's fault that opposing QBs had a 108 QB rating & 30 TDs (against only 3 picks), and opposing RBs 2500+ yards & 25 TDs, against the Texans' defense?

WTF does any of that have to do with Watson? Before you say it, it isn't because of his cap number. It was low last year and it'll be low this year.

 

32nd run defence in the league. Gave up an unbelievable 5.2 yards per carry.

Face it folks. Watson is an extremely overrated linebacker.

[Wonderboy]

22 hours ago, UntouchableCrew said:

"I want a better team."

You know what makes a team better? An elite 25 year old QB.

Great. An elite 25 yr old FQB on a roster full of dregs. Texans 2020 record 4-12.  Great.

[UntouchableCrew]

3 minutes ago, Wonderboy said:

Great. An elite 25 yr old FQB on a roster full of dregs. Texans 2020 record 4-12.  Great.

21-11 the two years before that.

The idea that people seem to think we can't continue to upgrade the roster despite upgrading at QB is baffling to me. Somehow we can only improve the roster if we stick with Sam Darnold.

[Wonderboy]

7 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

21-11 the two years before that.

The idea that people seem to think we can't continue to upgrade the roster despite upgrading at QB is baffling to me. Somehow we can only improve the roster if we stick with Sam Darnold.

Darnold’s gotta go. No question. But how do you propose upgrading a roster by trading 3-4 1st’s and a 2nd and probably losing any picks you’d get for Darnold. That’s potentially 5-6 front line starters you’d be able to pick up in the draft: QB, CB, edge, G, WR All top prospects. And it be would probably cost more than that. 

[Irish Jet]

Jets defence is the 85 Bears by comparison to the Texans.

Hilarious to see people judging individuals by their win/loss record with no f*cking context whatsoever.

If the Jets had Watson instead of the worst starting QB in the NFL it's a 6 win team comfortably. The Texan's have one strength and it's Watson. The Jets biggest weakness is Darnold. 

[UntouchableCrew]

13 minutes ago, Wonderboy said:

Darnold’s gotta go. No question. But how do you propose upgrading a roster by trading 3-4 1st’s and a 2nd and probably losing any picks you’d get for Darnold. That’s potentially 5-6 front line starters you’d be able to pick up in the draft: QB, CB, edge, G, WR All top prospects. And it be would probably cost more than that. 

We can move three first round picks over the next three years and still have two first round picks -- this the luxury of having five first round picks over the next three years.

I'm not sure what you mean re: Darnold (I mean, if it's 4 firsts, a 2nd, and Darnold I'm not sure I do that) but the reality is we still would have a good number of picks and a lot of cap space when other teams are going to be crunching the cap and moving guys.

It's one of the reasons the Jets and Dolphins are the front runners -- both teams can give up a lot and still not be screwed by doing so.

[Wonderboy]

9 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

We can move three first round picks over the next three years and still have two first round picks -- this the luxury of having five first round picks over the next three years.

I'm not sure what you mean re: Darnold (I mean, if it's 4 firsts, a 2nd, and Darnold I'm not sure I do that) but the reality is we still would have a good number of picks and a lot of cap space when other teams are going to be crunching the cap and moving guys.

It's one of the reasons the Jets and Dolphins are the front runners -- both teams can give up a lot and still not be screwed by doing so.

Don’t see JD doing it. Trading for Watson would have to be cost effective for JD. No more than two 1st’s as the bulk of the trade. 

[jgb]

58 minutes ago, Wonderboy said:

Darnold’s gotta go. No question. But how do you propose upgrading a roster by trading 3-4 1st’s and a 2nd and probably losing any picks you’d get for Darnold. That’s potentially 5-6 front line starters you’d be able to pick up in the draft: QB, CB, edge, G, WR All top prospects. And it be would probably cost more than that. 

You believe the draft hit rate to be 100%?

[Sperm Edwards]

3 hours ago, UntouchableCrew said:

21-11 the two years before that.

The idea that people seem to think we can't continue to upgrade the roster despite upgrading at QB is baffling to me. Somehow we can only improve the roster if we stick with Sam Darnold.

I don't know where this idea began that, just because someone says the obvious - that QB is the most important individual piece of a team - then for argumentative purposes that translates to "Oh, so you think only the QB matters and can't see the Texans were 4-12 even with him."

Drew Brees was rewriting record books while the Saints were 7-9 for 4 out of 5 seasons. They were bottom-4 in points-against, in a typically joke-weak division, with superior coaching than the Jets have had in years (at least on offense). Any time the defense was top 20 they won 11 to 13 games.

Houston had the #19 defense last year - still kind of sucky - and went 10-6. A top 5 defense the year before and they were 11-5. This year the Texans' opponents averaged 29ppg, and they were 4-12. Included in those 12 were games lost after Coutee fumbled in his own EZ with 19 seconds left, and 3 other losses when they scored 31, 36, and 38. 
 

Quote

https://www.insider.com/video-jj-watt-apologizes-deshaun-watson-texans-wasting-year-2021-1#:~:text=After the Texans' final game,I'm sorry.

The Houston Texans finished the 2020 season 4-12, despite a career year from Deshaun Watson.

Watson, the Texans' fourth-year quarterback, led the NFL with 4,823 passing yards. He completed a career-high 70% of his passes, with career-highs in touchdowns (33), interceptions (7), yards per attempt (8.3, which also led the NFL), and passer rating (112).

After the Texans' final game of the season, a 41-38 loss to the Tennessee Titans, NFL Films caught Texans defensive end JJ Watt apologizing to Watson for "wasting" a year of his career.

"Good job, brother. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. We wasted one of your years. I'm sorry. I mean, we should have 11 wins," Watt said.

So Watt is also badly mistaken, I guess. Houston would have been 11-5 only if either they had a better QB than Watson, or if Watson wasn't taking up $40MM of their salary cap (even though he isn't); but he's too much of a dumbass hick to realize Houston would've been no worse without him.

[Wonderboy]

14 minutes ago, jgb said:

You believe the draft hit rate to be 100%?

Those are prime picks. JD got Becton and Mims with 2 prime picks so YEAH.

[Sperm Edwards]

On 1/21/2021 at 2:58 PM, UntouchableCrew said:

"I want a better team."

You know what makes a team better? An elite 25 year old QB.

Yeah but we'd still suck because we'll be trading away 6 1st rounders and 1-2 2nd rounders (all of whom will become stars, and it'll happen right away for all of them as rookies), and then Darnold won't have any trade value, and also Watson will be at least a $40MM/year cap hit. 

[Jet Nut]

On 1/21/2021 at 12:47 PM, CanadaSteve said:

oe Flacco was more than competent under center in the exact same circumstances.  Meaning Darnold is worse than a 35-year old, disinterested QB who had 1 foot in retirement.  

Other than its untrue but just keep repeating it as if its true

[Skeet Ulrich]

2 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Other than its untrue but just keep repeating it as if its true

The offense actually looked somewhat competent in the New England and Chargers game where Flacco played, whereas the team was a complete disaster offensively whenever Darnold was under center.

[Embrace the Suck]

On 1/21/2021 at 2:58 PM, UntouchableCrew said:

"I want a better team."

You know what makes a team better? An elite 25 year old QB.

[Waka Flocka Flacco]

1 hour ago, Wonderboy said:

Darnold’s gotta go. No question. But how do you propose upgrading a roster by trading 3-4 1st’s and a 2nd and probably losing any picks you’d get for Darnold. That’s potentially 5-6 front line starters you’d be able to pick up in the draft: QB, CB, edge, G, WR All top prospects. And it be would probably cost more than that. 

Tua, Okudah, Young, Ruiz, Ruggs. Big fat who cares.

[Skeet Ulrich]

1 minute ago, Waka Flocka Flacco said:

Tua, Okudah, Young, Ruiz, Ruggs. Big fat who cares.

Draft capital only works if you draft the right guys. The Lions drafted Okudah #3 OVR and he is awful. Tua's already got one foot out the door in Miami.

[jgb]

27 minutes ago, Wonderboy said:

Those are prime picks. JD got Becton and Mims with 2 prime picks so YEAH.

Send a Jets fan to the market with a cow to sell and he will come home with a handful of magic beans.