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I don't want Watson, I want a better team


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51 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Yeah but we'd still suck because we'll be trading away 6 1st rounders and 1-2 2nd rounders (all of whom will become stars, and it'll happen right away for all of them as rookies), and then Darnold won't have any trade value, and also Watson will be at least a $40MM/year cap hit. 

yea Becton SUCKS

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We just saw what can happen when Deshaun Watson is on a team lacking talent - he goes 4-12. We are so much farther away from contending than just a QB. We need all the help we can get, we need al

I also want the Jets to suck forever

4 first round picks? No. 3? Maybe, depending on the picks 2? Yes Everything is dependent on price

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1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Yeah but we'd still suck because we'll be trading away 6 1st rounders and 1-2 2nd rounders (all of whom will become stars, and it'll happen right away for all of them as rookies), and then Darnold won't have any trade value, and also Watson will be at least a $40MM/year cap hit. 

Much better to ignore QB, build an amazing team, then go pluck a QB off the old FQB tree when we are ready.

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I’ve went back and forth on this. A QB needs a team around them and yada yada.

But after reading this article today (below), THIS is why getting Watson is the move. There is no more waiting time. There is no more developmental time. Get a proven stud, not some rookie who will be 0-6 against Allen by the time he “develops”.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/01/22/some-in-the-league-think-josh-allen-has-caught-patrick-mahomes/

 

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1 hour ago, Wonderboy said:

4.   Lets get him. We can go 5-11, 6-10. 7-9, 8-8, 9-7 over the next 5 years. Progress

Why is 7 +/-2 wins the 5-year baseline with Watson instead of the 10-11 wins they won with him the prior 2 seasons?

Going forward if the Jets are going to replicate each team-building whiff and each player injury & suspension, and compound them with awful coaching and a defense worse than any the Jets have fielded in memory.

Replicating the Texans means generally very poor use of its draft picks (whether kept or traded) outside of lucking into Watson at #12 back in 2017, and Andre Hopkins being a poor enough prospect to last to the end of round 1 some 4 years before that. 

So you're making too strong of an argument that inadvertently suggests this team is hopeless no matter what. In that case, where we have a hopelessly myopic FO and coaching staff, it makes no difference if they pass on Watson anyway.

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51 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

Oh that wasn't my quote about Flacco!

Didnt think it was, I thought it was 80's?  Sorry if I screwed something up.  I think I may have copied and pasted out of your post quoting him.  Damn

 

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1 hour ago, Facts said:

I’ve went back and forth on this. A QB needs a team around them and yada yada.

But after reading this article today (below), THIS is why getting Watson is the move. There is no more waiting time. There is no more developmental time. Get a proven stud, not some rookie who will be 0-6 against Allen by the time he “develops”.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/01/22/some-in-the-league-think-josh-allen-has-caught-patrick-mahomes/

 

Allen has a really, really high ceiling as a QB. McDermott has proven himself to be a pretty good head coach(playoffs 3/4 seasons, won the division, in the AFCCG this year - if he was the Jet HC we'd have him enshrined in Canton already). Beane appears to know how to build a team. The Bills are primed to run the AFC East for the next 5-10 years. You're going to need high level QB play to match Allen otherwise you're just pissing into the wind.

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1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

Didnt think it was, I thought it was 80's?  Sorry if I screwed something up.  I think I may have copied and pasted out of your post quoting him.  Damn

 

YEah, I am in the camp if we run with Sam so be it.  If that is what they want to do.

But the more this story develops, it sounds like Watson could come here.  I just don't want them including the #2 pick.

 

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2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Why is 7 +/-2 wins the 5-year baseline with Watson instead of the 10-11 wins they won with him the prior 2 seasons?

Going forward if the Jets are going to replicate each team-building whiff and each player injury & suspension, and compound them with awful coaching and a defense worse than any the Jets have fielded in memory.

Replicating the Texans means generally very poor use of its draft picks (whether kept or traded) outside of lucking into Watson at #12 back in 2017, and Andre Hopkins being a poor enough prospect to last to the end of round 1 some 4 years before that. 

So you're making too strong of an argument that inadvertently suggests this team is hopeless no matter what. In that case, where we have a hopelessly myopic FO and coaching staff, it makes no difference if they pass on Watson anyway.

If you're giving up multiple prime draft picks (1's and 2's) then you're impeding the overall progress of this team's future.  JD has shown some keen insight in top tier talent at the top of the draft.  Becton and Mims look like the real deal.  Would you trade Becton, Mims, two #1's plus a couple 2's away for Watson?  Or three #1's plus Darnold and a #2?  Texas isn't giving him away.  We have 4 #1's and 2 #2's over next 2 years. Plus whatever you can get for Darnold.  You have to reference JD's ability to draft (see Becton/Mms) and roll with that.  It could translate into 6 very good prospects a QB @ #2 (Fields),  a Guard/Tackle/Edge/CB @23/34 in 2021 and 3 more top picks in 2022.  That's a lot of ammunition to turn this roster around.  You make a valid point the effect Watson and the new coaching staff would have.  Our HC was abysmal and it can only get better.  But I don't see a huge overall improvement when 4/5 of our top draft picks over the next 2 years are going bye bye.  I'd love to get Watson. I'm just not willing to trade most of our prime assets over the next 2 years for him. Play Texas Gm and gimme a trade scenario.  

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2 hours ago, Wonderboy said:

If you're giving up multiple prime draft picks (1's and 2's) then you're impeding the overall progress of this team's future.  JD has shown some keen insight in top tier talent at the top of the draft.  Becton and Mims look like the real deal.  Would you trade Becton, Mims, two #1's plus a couple 2's away for Watson?  Or three #1's plus Darnold and a #2?  Texas isn't giving him away.  We have 4 #1's and 2 #2's over next 2 years. Plus whatever you can get for Darnold.  You have to reference JD's ability to draft (see Becton/Mms) and roll with that.  It could translate into 6 very good prospects a QB @ #2 (Fields),  a Guard/Tackle/Edge/CB @23/34 in 2021 and 3 more top picks in 2022.  That's a lot of ammunition to turn this roster around.  You make a valid point the effect Watson and the new coaching staff would have.  Our HC was abysmal and it can only get better.  But I don't see a huge overall improvement when 4/5 of our top draft picks over the next 2 years are going bye bye.  I'd love to get Watson. I'm just not willing to trade most of our prime assets over the next 2 years for him. Play Texas Gm and gimme a trade scenario.  

Ok but first of all the Texans are not in the best place to negotiate. If Watson is demanding a trade the Jets at #2 are easily the best trade partner- unless Houston really likes Tua and the Fins are looking to trade. So it may not be 4 first rounders plus a second, it may just be #2 and #24 this year plus a first rounder next year. Darnold may not even be in the picture. Houston may be looking to draft Fields or Wilson at #2 overall. 

Ok, so you lose that #2 pick. But assuming Darnold is broken and has no real future with the Jets (which seems to be the case) its a push because the Jets are getting Watson- at worst the safest #2 draft pick you can make, at worst an older, more expensive #2 draft pick if JD hits it out of the park with a QB at #2. 

Then you give up 24 and next years 1st. That sucks. But you know what, we still have Seattles 1st next year, our second round picks the next two years, two third round picks the next two years and whatever we can get for Darnold. And JD has lots of cap space to build properly around Watson and his contract. 

You can turn the roster around via the draft but no draft pick is a sure thing and you're only going to take one Franchise QB in a draft. If you dont hit on him, THAT sets you back. Getting Watson circumvents that and puts you in a position to win now and start building the rest of the roster without having to worry about a QB search. 

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18 minutes ago, PepPep said:

Ok but first of all the Texans are not in the best place to negotiate. If Watson is demanding a trade the Jets at #2 are easily the best trade partner- unless Houston really likes Tua and the Fins are looking to trade. So it may not be 4 first rounders plus a second, it may just be #2 and #24 this year plus a first rounder next year. Darnold may not even be in the picture. Houston may be looking to draft Fields or Wilson at #2 overall. 

Ok, so you lose that #2 pick. But assuming Darnold is broken and has no real future with the Jets (which seems to be the case) its a push because the Jets are getting Watson- at worst the safest #2 draft pick you can make, at worst an older, more expensive #2 draft pick if JD hits it out of the park with a QB at #2. 

Then you give up 24 and next years 1st. That sucks. But you know what, we still have Seattles 1st next year, our second round picks the next two years, two third round picks the next two years and whatever we can get for Darnold. And JD has lots of cap space to build properly around Watson and his contract. 

You can turn the roster around via the draft but no draft pick is a sure thing and you're only going to take one Franchise QB in a draft. If you dont hit on him, THAT sets you back. Getting Watson circumvents that and puts you in a position to win now and start building the rest of the roster without having to worry about a QB search. 

That’s a long winded way of saying you’d trade 3#1’s for Watson. My abridged response. 

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6 hours ago, Facts said:

I’ve went back and forth on this. A QB needs a team around them and yada yada.

But after reading this article today (below), THIS is why getting Watson is the move. There is no more waiting time. There is no more developmental time. Get a proven stud, not some rookie who will be 0-6 against Allen by the time he “develops”.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/01/22/some-in-the-league-think-josh-allen-has-caught-patrick-mahomes/

 

Buffalo build a great oline, added a top 3 or 4 wr in the league.

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On 1/21/2021 at 1:58 PM, UntouchableCrew said:

"I want a better team."

You know what makes a team better? An elite 25 year old QB.

We know that's not always true. Or should I say he made the Texans better, but still an awful team.

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11 hours ago, Wonderboy said:

If you're giving up multiple prime draft picks (1's and 2's) then you're impeding the overall progress of this team's future.  JD has shown some keen insight in top tier talent at the top of the draft.  Becton and Mims look like the real deal.  Would you trade Becton, Mims, two #1's plus a couple 2's away for Watson?  Or three #1's plus Darnold and a #2?  Texas isn't giving him away.  We have 4 #1's and 2 #2's over next 2 years. Plus whatever you can get for Darnold.  You have to reference JD's ability to draft (see Becton/Mms) and roll with that.  It could translate into 6 very good prospects a QB @ #2 (Fields),  a Guard/Tackle/Edge/CB @23/34 in 2021 and 3 more top picks in 2022.  That's a lot of ammunition to turn this roster around.  You make a valid point the effect Watson and the new coaching staff would have.  Our HC was abysmal and it can only get better.  But I don't see a huge overall improvement when 4/5 of our top draft picks over the next 2 years are going bye bye.  I'd love to get Watson. I'm just not willing to trade most of our prime assets over the next 2 years for him. Play Texas Gm and gimme a trade scenario.  

After 1 season lots of guys looked like the real deal. You’re presuming way too much. First you’re presuming not only that Becton and Mims - two players I like very much so far - both will be as successful at their positions as Watson is at QB when you look back 3 seasons from now. The fact is you do not know that. For all you know, Becton may always have nagging injuries and/or endurance issues to last 16 games at his weight; he may already have permanent shoulder damage from his rookie season that’ll either hamper him or get worse; he may not further develop as hoped as a consistently good pass blocker; Mims may have a case of the dropsies; he may tear an ACL this summer; he may not be the crispest route runner and it’s easy for DBs to keep up with him; we likely will pick up a premiere WR in FA and that with or without hitting on a later WR pick could limit his ceiling to a borderline #2 who never reaches the next level. In short,many things could happen that would go a long way to diminishing the value you’re placing on them based on 1 season, in which you’re mentioning them as though they have guaranteed, successful 10+ year careers ahead of them as above-average starters. 

I’m not suggesting any of these things are likely to happen, but they are all possibilities. 

You’re further presuming that seeming to hit on both his 1st and 2nd round picks this year therefore means all his 1st and 2nd round picks will be as valuable. In reality, so far he picked wrong despite a 50/50 shot on selecting a probowl tackle. Or anyway, the point is given the Jets’ desperation at tackle he selected right because there was no wrong pick to make: anyone terrible at drafting tackles could have made a good pick ther after 2 tackles were off the board and those particular 2 tackles were left. Again, you assume too much here.

Mims has played half a season and showed little more than flashes to give us optimism — optimism which I share, but I’m aware it’s optimism not confidence that we hit it out of the park with him already. There’s a reason the Jets will be shopping for a WR1 in FA and not merely a cheaper WR2 type.  

Even more, in your scenario, you’re talking 3 #1s (including the 2nd overall pick) and 3 #2s which is highly doubtful to be the pricetag. Why not make the scenario 6 #1s and 6 #2s, seeing it’s about as likely?

Finally if we traded Becton, Mims, 2 #1s, and 2 #2s (in your made-up scenario). First of all, the team then has a proven star QB in Watson, 25 years old and already locked up for the next 5 years plus 2 #1s, a #2, and 3 #3 picks remaining over the upcoming 2 drafts (as well as plenty of space to kickstart replacing the two we traded, and much more beyond that).

So yes even in your attempt to show me an analogy of what it’s like trading away, yes I still make that trade anyway. It won’t even come to that much being required, but if it did? Sure, absolutely. It’s far easier to replace a LT and a hopeful at WR than it is to find sure thing future HOF QB, during what arguably should be the best 5 season stretch of his career (plus surely extending him beyond that when the time comes). 

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8 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Buffalo build a great oline, added a top 3 or 4 wr in the league.

Yes they did a good job on their OL. How many 1st rounders did they use to build that OL? Answer: zero.

As far as their WR, that was a different scenario in that there will be this year in landing a “#1” type veteran WR. In 2021 there will be FAs at least on par with Diggs (who was then #2 or maybe 1b to Thielen, not the only serious threat on the team who still got open despite double-teams & more). None we sign would cost the 1st rounder Buffalo spent on Diggs.

So to your point, if the Bills can build an OL without going crazy with high 1st round picks and multiple 8-figure/year FAs, why can’t the Jets?

I totally get where you’re coming from — nobody (me included) likes the idea of giving up upwards of 3 1st round picks for a QB. The reality is if they don’t then yet another season is in the toilet before it starts (which itself is a lot to in-effect trade away), and for all we know they’ll draft Sewell at #2 this year and then use the other 2 of those 3 1st rounders to move up to draft a QB next year who could be another Darnold, or at the earliest & most optimistic would only make the team realistic SB contenders by 2023. 

So if given the potential choice (a choice that has a good chance of occurring) of Sewell at #2 this year, plus a 1st round QB we draft with a pair of 1s next year vs. trading for Watson this year, I take the latter 10x out of 10 to avoid that. 

Yes there are other ways it could play out where not making the trade ends up better, but everyone’s got their comfort zone. I think it’s harder to find a QB like Watson than it is to build a team around Watson after your starting point is Watson in his prime. We’re guessing either way. In the past I’d have chosen the picks but Watson is unique enough to tip the table the other way for me. 

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15 hours ago, Wonderboy said:

If you're giving up multiple prime draft picks (1's and 2's) then you're impeding the overall progress of this team's future.  JD has shown some keen insight in top tier talent at the top of the draft.  Becton and Mims look like the real deal.  Would you trade Becton, Mims, two #1's plus a couple 2's away for Watson?  Or three #1's plus Darnold and a #2?  Texas isn't giving him away.  We have 4 #1's and 2 #2's over next 2 years. Plus whatever you can get for Darnold.  You have to reference JD's ability to draft (see Becton/Mms) and roll with that.  It could translate into 6 very good prospects a QB @ #2 (Fields),  a Guard/Tackle/Edge/CB @23/34 in 2021 and 3 more top picks in 2022.  That's a lot of ammunition to turn this roster around.  You make a valid point the effect Watson and the new coaching staff would have.  Our HC was abysmal and it can only get better.  But I don't see a huge overall improvement when 4/5 of our top draft picks over the next 2 years are going bye bye.  I'd love to get Watson. I'm just not willing to trade most of our prime assets over the next 2 years for him. Play Texas Gm and gimme a trade scenario.  

Trade for Watson

Trade away Sam

Trade away Mosley 

 

no you will not recoup all the capital to acquire Watson but.... you will get probably a 2nd round pick for Sam and possibly a 3rd for Mosley. 
 

trade 3 firsts for Watson (will still have Seattle’s 1st rounders next 2 seasons or 2 of the 5 first round picks we own. in next 3 years). Then add in a 2nd and a 3rd from Darnold and Mosley and acquiring Watsonreally isn’t so bad as far as compensation goes. 
 

even if it were 4 first round picks this year you traded 2 first round picks for Jamal Adam’s to get a stud QB that is 25. No way are you handicapping JD. Still has plant of draft picks next 3 years and $$ for FA. 
 

you made the Jamal Adam’s trade to get talent and skill players. Well maybe you just pivot and get the skilled, talented, top 5-10 qb that you are most likely not selecting at 2nd overall or anywhere else in this draft. 

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Honestly I don’t see Douglas Ever trading this much draft capital with so many holes to fill just not how he operates.  I feel like this is just media speculation/fodder 

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4 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

After 1 season lots of guys looked like the real deal. You’re presuming way too much. First you’re presuming not only that Becton and Mims - two players I like very much so far - both will be as successful at their positions as Watson is at QB when you look back 3 seasons from now. The fact is you do not know that. For all you know, Becton may always have nagging injuries and/or endurance issues to last 16 games at his weight; he may already have permanent shoulder damage from his rookie season that’ll either hamper him or get worse; he may not further develop as hoped as a consistently good pass blocker; Mims may have a case of the dropsies; he may tear an ACL this summer; he may not be the crispest route runner and it’s easy for DBs to keep up with him; we likely will pick up a premiere WR in FA and that with or without hitting on a later WR pick could limit his ceiling to a borderline #2 who never reaches the next level. In short,many things could happen that would go a long way to diminishing the value you’re placing on them based on 1 season, in which you’re mentioning them as though they have guaranteed, successful 10+ year careers ahead of them as above-average starters. 

I’m not suggesting any of these things are likely to happen, but they are all possibilities. 

You’re further presuming that seeming to hit on both his 1st and 2nd round picks this year therefore means all his 1st and 2nd round picks will be as valuable. In reality, so far he picked wrong despite a 50/50 shot on selecting a probowl tackle. Or anyway, the point is given the Jets’ desperation at tackle he selected right because there was no wrong pick to make: anyone terrible at drafting tackles could have made a good pick ther after 2 tackles were off the board and those particular 2 tackles were left. Again, you assume too much here.

Mims has played half a season and showed little more than flashes to give us optimism — optimism which I share, but I’m aware it’s optimism not confidence that we hit it out of the park with him already. There’s a reason the Jets will be shopping for a WR1 in FA and not merely a cheaper WR2 type.  

Even more, in your scenario, you’re talking 3 #1s (including the 2nd overall pick) and 3 #2s which is highly doubtful to be the pricetag. Why not make the scenario 6 #1s and 6 #2s, seeing it’s about as likely?

Finally if we traded Becton, Mims, 2 #1s, and 2 #2s (in your made-up scenario). First of all, the team then has a proven star QB in Watson, 25 years old and already locked up for the next 5 years plus 2 #1s, a #2, and 3 #3 picks remaining over the upcoming 2 drafts (as well as plenty of space to kickstart replacing the two we traded, and much more beyond that).

So yes even in your attempt to show me an analogy of what it’s like trading away, yes I still make that trade anyway. It won’t even come to that much being required, but if it did? Sure, absolutely. It’s far easier to replace a LT and a hopeful at WR than it is to find sure thing future HOF QB, during what arguably should be the best 5 season stretch of his career (plus surely extending him beyond that when the time comes). 

I assume nothing. And any negative possibilities you etched out regarding Mims or Becton or the players JD drafts with the prime picks he’s accumulated could turn this team around 180 degrees. See how that flips. And any nightmare scenario could occur with Watson as well. See Dak Prescott, see Andrew Luck. Nothing is guaranteed yet you make it sound like Watson is like The Black Panther. You don’t live on might be this or might be that. From what I’ve seen of JD in his short time as GM, he doesn’t come across as being impulsive or trigger happy.  We just came off one of worst seasons in pro football history. We lack talent across the board.  Watson’s a great talent. No doubt. Would love to get him but not at the price so many are willing to dish out. Texans will be handcuffed with trading Watson.  No way I give them more than two #1’s, this year’s #2 which is gold and next years Seattle pick, (Darnold and chump change, or some combination if they don’t want him). 

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On 1/21/2021 at 2:58 PM, UntouchableCrew said:

"I want a better team."

You know what makes a team better? An elite 25 year old QB.

Everything must be argued as zero sum, otherwise people will expose their intellectual insecurity. 

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18 hours ago, NYJ1 said:

Kelly! Is that your Snapper? I must say, I really like your Snapper!:)

..YOU'll never know  😎and, yes.. YOU would  😜

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13 hours ago, Ron Jeremy said:

i agree, darnold is just as good as allen but doesn't have the weapons. * ..yet *  😎

* *  fixed   ^ ^ 

 

😎

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16 hours ago, Wonderboy said:

If you're giving up multiple prime draft picks (1's and 2's) then you're impeding the overall progress of this team's future.  JD has shown some keen insight in top tier talent at the top of the draft.  Becton and Mims look like the real deal.  Would you trade Becton, Mims, two #1's plus a couple 2's away for Watson?  Or three #1's plus Darnold and a #2?  Texas isn't giving him away.  We have 4 #1's and 2 #2's over next 2 years. Plus whatever you can get for Darnold.  You have to reference JD's ability to draft (see Becton/Mms) and roll with that.  It could translate into 6 very good prospects a QB @ #2 (Fields),  a Guard/Tackle/Edge/CB @23/34 in 2021 and 3 more top picks in 2022.  That's a lot of ammunition to turn this roster around.  You make a valid point the effect Watson and the new coaching staff would have.  Our HC was abysmal and it can only get better.  But I don't see a huge overall improvement when 4/5 of our top draft picks over the next 2 years are going bye bye.  I'd love to get Watson. I'm just not willing to trade most of our prime assets over the next 2 years for him. Play Texas Gm and gimme a trade scenario.  

Strawman argument.

People aren't advocating trading 6 picks.  Most are saying three firsts. 

 

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