If Bill Bellichick was such a genius,, then why didn't they keep Tom Brady for 2 more seasons?

[MykePM]

6 hours ago, Untouchable said:

Because Belichick isn’t a genius

He just lucked into the greatest QB to ever step on a football field in the 6th round.

Without Brady, Belichick is what he is. A mediocre coach with a career losing record.

I think the real problem is Belichick the GM.  Belichick the coach has only been able to succeed despite poor drafting and roster management when he had Brady on his team, at a discounted price.

[jgb]

This thread not likely to age well 

[slimjasi]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

This thread not likely to age well 

Belichick has 6 losing seasons without Brady and will be 69 years old in April. 
 

He’s running out of time to change this narrative. And if Brady ever wins this SB (don’t think he will), forget about it 

[ncjetman]

can't stand belichik for many reasons - cheater/douche etc but as far as his coaching competency- was it star or was it lombardi? was it staubach or was it landry? was it bradway or was it noll? - was it montana or was it walsh? etc etc - i think brady proved that he can win without belichik- i think belichik has proven more than enough over the years - hall of fame coach - maybe the best ever - and i really really hate him - but as parcels said you are what your record says you are and with 280 plus wins..........


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[jgb]

3 hours ago, slimjasi said:

Belichick has 6 losing seasons without Brady and will be 69 years old in April. 
 

He’s running out of time to change this narrative. And if Brady ever wins this SB (don’t think he will), forget about it 

 

3 hours ago, ncjetman said:

can't stand belichik for many reasons - cheater/douche etc but as far as his coaching competency- was it star or was it lombardi? was it staubach or was it landry? was it bradway or was it noll? - was it montana or was it walsh? etc etc - i think brady proved that he can win without belichik- i think belichik has proven more than enough over the years - hall of fame coach - maybe the best ever - and i really really hate him - but as parcels said you are what your record says you are and with 280 plus wins..........


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

Exactly. Funny how Jets fans defend Darnold saying QB can’t do it alone but want to attribute 30 years of a coach’s careeer and like 10 SB appearances 100% to... a QB. By that logic no one can’t credibly day Watson’s not worth 20 first round picks.

These “was it this or that,” “coach of QB,” “QB or weaponz,” debates lead to nothingness and are a poor substitute for critical thought. Many top QBs in history have won zero or one championship. It’s hard to win. What Brady and Bellichick did together was unique, special and they both deserve credit for it, yes even if Pats didn’t make the playoffs this year and Brady is going to the SB. 

Bill Belichick is an excellent football coach and only the bitter taste of sour grapes can lead one to deny it. You’re free to believe he’s a terrible human being, but this kind of feelz over factz stuff is really weak.

[CTM]

3 minutes ago, jgb said:

 

Exactly. Funny how Jets fans defend Darnold saying QB can’t do it alone but want to attribute 30 years of a coach’s careeer to... a QB.

These “was it this or that,” “coach of QB,” “QB or weaponz,” debates lead to nothingness and are a poor substitute for critical thought. Other top QBs in history have won zero or one championship. What Brady and Bellichick did together was unique, special and they both deserve credit for it, yes even if Pats didn’t make the playoffs this year and Brady is going to the SB.

Bill Belichick is an excellent football coach and only the bitter taste of sour grapes can lead one to deny it.

He's an excellent DC. He' a good HC that lucked into the greatest draft pick in the history of football.

Belichick very likely will make the playoffs again as he's a good coach but I've been saying for years Brady gets the lionshare of the credit for the dynasty and this year, as well as 2008 kinda cemeted it

[riggy001]

12 minutes ago, CTM said:

He's an excellent DC. He' a good HC that lucked into the greatest draft pick in the history of football.

Belichick very likely will make the playoffs again as he's a good coach but I've been saying for years Brady gets the lionshare of the credit for the dynasty and this year, as well as 2008 kinda cemeted it

Could not agree more! I have been saying this to my Pats friends for years now. If the Jets had brady in several of the Sanchez Yrs, and even some of the Chad years, we likely would have won 1-2 super bowls. 

[choon328]

8 hours ago, Anthony Jet said:

Brady at times looked great today, but he also threw 3 picks.   He was not the world beater we saw in NE at all this year, could be from age, could be from no BB, could be from a lot of things but to compare TB and BB seasons this year is like comparing apples and oranges 

To base Bradys entire year based on this performance is a mistake. He killed it this year. He had his 3rd best statistical year of his career. 

[Biggs]

The thread premise isn't genius.  It ignores a few small details.  Football is a team game.  New England isn't sniffing a SB with Brady this year or next.  Tampa Bay is a loaded team needing a couple of pieces.  Kraft and BB did the right thing not resigning Brady.  No it wasn't genius to not sign him, it was a no-brainer.  

 

[Anthony Jet]

28 minutes ago, choon328 said:

To base Bradys entire year based on this performance is a mistake. He killed it this year. He had his 3rd best statistical year of his career. 

TB is unbelievable, but his offense is also stacked, while the Pats had a lot of key guys opt out. 
 

TB and BB are both really really good in there own respect, sucks but it is what it is 

[Anthony Jet]

9 hours ago, Untouchable said:

Brady just threw for over 4600 yards and 40 TD’s in his mid-40’s.

People keep saying that the guy is bound to fall off yet it never happens.

Would it honestly surprise anyone if he’s still playing at a high level and competing for championships every year when he’s pushing 50?

Because I’m done doubting him

Brady is unbelievable, not denying that but how can this year prove that it was all him and nothing to do with BB is all I’m saying. 
 

Besides what’s been mentioned before about stacked team and opt outs, also Brady had the time to perfect his craft as NE year after year won and reinvented itself along the way, the first 3 championships were won on the defense back. The near perfect season was all Brady and a lot of moss. 
 

Can’t take credit from one of the 2 guys based on this season. They are joined at the hip and each benefited immensely from the other. Basically what a good partnership is supposed to do 

[Larz]

It’s obvious they didn’t think that he would 

they had absolutely no plan in place 

[Biggs]

10 minutes ago, Larz said:

It’s obvious they didn’t think that he would 

they had absolutely no plan in place 

Their plan was blown up when Brady decided he wanted to play past 40.  It's clear Garrapolo was being groomed to take over and Brady forced them to trade him.  They won another SB so there's that to be critical of. 

[choon328]

29 minutes ago, Anthony Jet said:

TB is unbelievable, but his offense is also stacked, while the Pats had a lot of key guys opt out. 
 

TB and BB are both really really good in there own respect, sucks but it is what it is 

The Patriots opt outs were all on defense. They had similar talent on offense in 2019. They finished 12-4, he finished with over 4000 yds, 24 tds and 8 int. The offense ranked 7th in points and 15th in yards.  This year they ranked 27th in both categories while also have the 4th rated offensive line according to PFF. There was a massive difference between the 2 seasons with and without Brady with basically the same offensive roster each season. BB's success is directly tied to Brady. That really shouldn't be a criticism bc 99% of great coaches were carried by great QB play. HC's in the nfl are overrated.  The QB is and will always be the most important person in a franchise by far. The greatest coaches look mediocre with bad QB play. That's been proven over and over and thats why you go get Watson if he's available at virtually any cost. 

[Sperm Edwards]

9 hours ago, Untouchable said:

Sure, the guy has a great supporting cast, but Mahomes has the best supporting cast in the league and is 20 years younger.

It’s still nuts what the guy is doing at 43. He leaves New England for a brand new team with brand new teammates and coaches and immediately waltzes back to the Super Bowl while Belichick couldn’t even achieve .500 without him.

Just 10 years ago people were blown away that Favre was still hanging around at 38/39. Meanwhile Brady is still having MVP-esque seasons and going to his 10th Super Bowl and he’s half a decade older than that.

 

Again, I think that’s an oversimplification. One wasn’t left coaching the equivalent team that the other left to QB. Coaching a depleted NE roster isn’t an equal measure of QBing for a team with a loaded roster and with competent coaching. No doubt it’s nuts that he’s even still in the league at 43. 

[FidelioJet]

10 hours ago, Anthony Jet said:

Brady at times looked great today, but he also threw 3 picks.   He was not the world beater we saw in NE at all this year, could be from age, could be from no BB, could be from a lot of things but to compare TB and BB seasons this year is like comparing apples and oranges 

Put Brady on NE this year and they win 11 games.

Of course it matters.

[Morrissey]

Because both he and Brady knew the Patriots didn't have a winning roster. Tom wanted to leave, and he did.

[Matt39]

2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Put Brady on NE this year and they win 11 games.

Of course it matters.

I mean they won 7 with Cam, who could not throw a pass over 5 yards.

[jgb]

2 hours ago, CTM said:

He's an excellent DC. He' a good HC that lucked into the greatest draft pick in the history of football.

Belichick very likely will make the playoffs again as he's a good coach but I've been saying for years Brady gets the lionshare of the credit for the dynasty and this year, as well as 2008 kinda cemeted it

2008 when he went 11-5 with Matt Cassell. Lol. That might be his best coaching year. Just funny that when it comes to NE, we all agree Brady is incredibly important but then continue playing Excuse Twister for Darnold because "A QB isn't able to have an impact in this situation" and then maliging Watson despite elite performance because his defense gave up a mountain of points and they only won 4 games. Intellectual honesty is more important than farming upvotes from Jets fans.

[Sperm Edwards]

8 hours ago, CTM said:

Belichick has a losing record without Brady and didn't make the playoffs in NE the 3 seasons he didn't play. That debate is over, Brady made Beli

Not making the playoffs with a 11-5 record without him, and making the playoffs with a 10-6 with him a year later, takes the oomph out of that argument. No one’s claiming he was a great HC in his first go at it with Cleveland back in the early/mid 90s, and don’t feel it’s any more relevant to the (cheating) coach he became than (also cheating) Brady was when he could barely earn the 3rd string job as a rookie. 

It’s a bit more accurate to say that, barring an unusual situation where 11-5 doesn’t even get your team a WC berth, he’ll coach his teams to the playoffs with a competent QB. There haven’t been any seasons with a 2009-2010 Jets roster to prove or disprove the in-between of a great team with a terrible QB, but 2008 was about as close as it’ll be.

No doubt I agree Belichick’s alleged genius has been overrated, as having a Tom Brady for 20 years will erase lots of HC errors. Likewise, Brady wasn’t the better QB he later became, and certainly wasn’t carrying the team on his back when NE’s top defenses were saving merely good but hardly great QB play en route to earlier Super Bowls.

Again, screw them both, but to make definitive arguments there would need to be equal situations e.g. Brady making the playoffs and having a great season on a terrible offense around him (with a terrible defense) to “prove” what you’re saying, or Belichick failing with an otherwise playoff (or even a borderline-playoff) roster. Neither of these has been the case. 

[Thai Jet]

14 hours ago, Alka said:

The great Bill Bellicheck is not such a genius without Tom Brady, is he?  I wonder if Bill is regretting not doing everything they could to keep Tom?

Seems that Brady did make Beliprick. I think Tom wanted out of the cold in NE and knew that the Pats roster was sh*t. All those years of sh*itty drafts added to that roster. Brady WAS the brains behind NE's run. 

[BroadwayBen]

Bill's biggest downfall is how stubborn he appears to be. Sometimes he takes the "my way or the highway" approach too literally and it costed him the last couple years of Brady's career. 

Am I complaining about this? Absolutely not ?

[kelly]

if i may, when it comes to BB,.. it comes down to - bledsoe got hurt.. his BACK-UP came in   ?

 

 

 

cheers ~ ~ 

  

[nyjunc]

14 hours ago, southparkcpa said:

Take a bow @nyjunc  you’ve been saying this above forever.  ? 

I believe Belichick developed into a great HC but I don't think he would have had that chance without Brady.  He was on the hot seat when Brady took over, that changed everything and through the years as Brady took less and kept winning without a ton of talent around him it made Belichick's job as GM easy.  No matter what he did it worked because of Brady but I still give Bill credit just not as much as Brady.

[southparkcpa]

4 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

I believe Belichick developed into a great HC but I don't think he would have had that chance without Brady.  He was on the hot seat when Brady took over, that changed everything and through the years as Brady took less and kept winning without a ton of talent around him it made Belichick's job as GM easy.  No matter what he did it worked because of Brady but I still give Bill credit just not as much as Brady.

I agree, Ive seen enough of BB that he is a good HC.  Without Tom, he is average, a good average.

[FTL Jet Fan]

Politics of the NFL

[Biggs]

5 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

I believe Belichick developed into a great HC but I don't think he would have had that chance without Brady.  He was on the hot seat when Brady took over, that changed everything and through the years as Brady took less and kept winning without a ton of talent around him it made Belichick's job as GM easy.  No matter what he did it worked because of Brady but I still give Bill credit just not as much as Brady.

Agree.  What makes BB a great HC is he has set up a system that develops players and puts them in position to make plays right away.  He is very flexible, he's not locked into scheme he takes what he's dealt and makes it work.  He has that and he has had a QB who is both an incredible talent and driven by an obsession to win that is simply not measurable.  

BB is borderline on the spectrum.  He is insanely into detail.  He has a QB that kept everyone in line so he didn't have to deal with the personalities and motivate.  He did what he does best study his opponents and put his guys in position to exploit their weaknesses.  Brady kept everyone focussed without BB having to rally the troops.  He just had to teach them and put them in position to make plays.  Something he's actually great at.

Brady went to a team that Brady knew could win.  It's also a well coached team on both sides of the ball.  Brady knew it and that's why he went there. 

[Sperm Edwards]

8 hours ago, choon328 said:

The Patriots opt outs were all on defense. They had similar talent on offense in 2019. They finished 12-4, he finished with over 4000 yds, 24 tds and 8 int. The offense ranked 7th in points and 15th in yards.  This year they ranked 27th in both categories while also have the 4th rated offensive line according to PFF. There was a massive difference between the 2 seasons with and without Brady with basically the same offensive roster each season. BB's success is directly tied to Brady. That really shouldn't be a criticism bc 99% of great coaches were carried by great QB play. HC's in the nfl are overrated.  The QB is and will always be the most important person in a franchise by far. The greatest coaches look mediocre with bad QB play. That's been proven over and over and thats why you go get Watson if he's available at virtually any cost. 

I agree with most of this but I’m not going to buy the idea that the difference between success and failure is all on the QB. A team can have stellar QB play and still suck (see Watson, as people love to point out as though anyone else - Brady & Mahomes included - would have made the playoffs on Houston in his place). Put Watson on the Bucs or Chiefs and I think they have little problem getting where they are now. I can’t crown him with a conf championship or a SB ring without doing it, as the ball sometimes bounces in funny ways no matter who’s the QB, but it’s not hard to imagine Watson in the SB on such otherwise stacked teams.

What I’m not going to buy is the idea that the difference between HC Adam Gase and HC Bill Belichick is a QB. The Chargers won even fewer games than NE despite probowl-level play from its rookie QB. The difference between their respective teams finishing one game better or worse than the other is Herbert getting shut out by NE. 

Cam Newton wasn’t demonstrably better than Darnold - which is saying something about his arm, considering how much more experience he has - Stidham even worse than Newton, and somehow still NE came within a game of .500. It’s easy to look at Newton’s numbers and forget that 3 of his meager 8 TD passes (in 15 starts) came in week 17 against the Jets. He was starting because there was no one else.

What’s been so overrated about Belichick is the dripping genius shine that sports media mouthpieces have been making on his balls with every poor decision he made in the offseason. He’s an overrated semi-GM but a top coach. No players or coaches have come out of there and said, “Yeah nothing special about this program at all; it’s just Brady and everyone knows it.” While 7-9 is a crap record, there are even crappier records, and I can’t think of a team with starting QBs incapable of throwing more than 5 TDs in its first 15 games. 

@Anthony Jet put it well: they both benefited immensely from each other. Without the other this year, Belichick was on a team with opt-outs and shoulderless QBs; converselely Brady was surrounded by a cast that’d benefit any QB who wasn’t committing even half of Winston’s unbelievable 35 turnovers (including his record 7 pick-6s).

[nyjunc]

Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

I agree with most of this but I’m not going to buy the idea that the difference between success and failure is all on the QB. A team can have stellar QB play and still suck (see Watson, as people love to point out as though anyone else - Brady & Mahomes included - would have the playoffs in his place). Put Watson on the Bucs or Chiefs and I think they have little problem getting where they are now. I can’t crown him with a conf championship or a SB ring without doing it, as the ball sometimes bounces in funny ways no matter who’s the QB, but it’s not hard to imagine Watson in the SB on such otherwise stacked teams.

What I’m not going to buy is the idea that the difference between HC Adam Gase and HC Bill Belichick is a QB. The Chargers won even fewer games than NE despite probowl-level play from its rookie QB. The difference between their respective teams finishing one game better or worse than the other is Herbert getting shut out by NE. 

Cam Newton wasn’t demonstrably better than Darnold - which is saying something about his arm, considering how much more experience he has - Stidham even worse than Newton, and somehow still NE came within a game of .500. It’s easy to look at Newton’s numbers and forget that 3 of his meager 8 TD passes (in 15 starts) came in week 17 against the Jets. He was starting because there was no one else.

What’s been so overrated about Belichick is the dripping genius shine that sports media mouthpieces have been making on his balls with every poor decision he made in the offseason. He’s an overrated semi-GM but a top coach. No players or coaches have come out of there and said, “Yeah nothing special about this program at all; it’s just Brady and everyone knows it.” While 7-9 is a crap record, there are even crappier records, and I can’t think of a team with starting QBs incapable of throwing more than 5 TDs in its first 15 games. 

@Anthony Jet put it well: they both benefited immensely from each other. Without the other this year, Belichick was on a team with opt-outs and shoulderless QBs; converselely Brady was surrounded by a cast that’d benefit any QB who wasn’t committing even half of Winston’s unbelievable 35 turnovers (including his record 7 pick-6s).

Gase's record is similar to Belichick's without Brady.  I think Belichick is a couple of games now over .500 but in 8 seasons Belichick has 1 WC app which is the same as Gase in 5 seasons.

[nyjunc]

1 minute ago, Biggs said:

Agree.  What makes BB a great HC is he has set up a system that develops players and puts them in position to make plays right away.  He is very flexible, he's not locked into scheme he takes what he's dealt and makes it work.  He has that and he has had a QB who is both an incredible talent and driven by an obsession to win that is simply not measurable.  

BB is borderline on the spectrum.  He is insanely into detail.  He has a QB that kept everyone in line so he didn't have to deal with the personalities and motivate.  He did what he does best study his opponents and put his guys in position to exploit their weaknesses.  Brady kept everyone focussed without BB having to rally the troops.  He just had to teach them and put them in position to make plays.  Something he's actually great at.

Brady went to a team that Brady knew could win.  It's also a well coached team on both sides of the ball.  Brady knew it and that's why he went there. 

Brady definitely knew TB had talent but they had no winning experience and he is 43.  What he has done is amazing even for him.  

Brady made things easy for Belichick, no matter who was around Brady he always succeeded.  They complimented each other perfectly but Brady was the key.

[Sperm Edwards]

28 minutes ago, Thai Jet said:

Seems that Brady did make Beliprick. I think Tom wanted out of the cold in NE and knew that the Pats roster was sh*t. All those years of sh*itty drafts added to that roster. Brady WAS the brains behind NE's run. 

They both benefited from each other. Brady is benefitting from being a good QB with a perfect storm of wepponz, while Belichick is not benefitting from a QB who can barely throw anymore. If a still-decent QB went to NE for the year instead of just Cam Newton, and they still won only 7 games, then it’d be a stronger case. Or if Cam throws 28 TDs next season for a different team to show his arm was actually fine, that as well. 

You’re in pharma iirc, no?

Imagine if a drug rep came to you and claimed a pill is definitively proven to be a miracle drug (or even effective) because: a couple of very healthy people did well while taking it, and a couple of otherwise-unhealthy people did poorly on a placebo, and left the testing results at that.

I’d say it’s a fair metaphor for the conclusions being drawn here.

[rangerous]

a lot of the bellichicken debate centers around who made the patsies brady or bellichicken.  i am not convinced the bellichicken would've had success without brady.  the issue is whether or not the krafts would've kept him on for the few seasons of misery while developing a qb.  i also think that jets fans, if asked, would say they want the bellichicken as head coach above all others so there's quite a bit of sour grapes going on.  at this point i would say i'd want the bellichicken of 10 plus years ago but only because there are coaches that are just as capable.

another point is pointing to his stint with cleveland.  okay i'll buy he wasn't a great coach at that time.  but he was also handicapped by a moronic owner and initially a worn out qb in kosar.  vinny helped but vinny being vinny needs a team around him to win.

[DonCorleone]

12 hours ago, Untouchable said:

Brady just threw for over 4600 yards and 40 TD’s in his mid-40’s.

People keep saying that the guy is bound to fall off yet it never happens.

Would it honestly surprise anyone if he’s still playing at a high level and competing for championships every year when he’s pushing 50?

Because I’m done doubting him

Fair point. I always stated that Brady was a product of a great system. It is now obvious that I had that in reverse. 

[Sperm Edwards]

With regard to the thead title, he’s always been overrated when it comes to transactions. I’ve lost count of how many bad FA acquisitions, trades, and draft picks he’s made that - at the time - were talked of as proof positive of his genius.

He’s one of the better HCs. If it was just the QB then there’d be a list of HCs who were supposedly carried by their QBs, with at least nearly his resume.

If you want to demonstrate HCs who are exposed without an all-time great QB I think he’d need a few more years of showing it without Brady than a first, failure stint with Cleveland and a year with Cam Newton (in between, with a year where 11-5 without Brady didn’t even earn a WC slot). 

I hate being in this position, defending this miserable, cheating dirtbag. Ballwashing Brady as though he alone was effectively 20+ starters and all the coaches on all those championship teams all by himself, will bring that out of me lol. **** him. **** both of them. 

[Joe W. Namath]

Im going to hold off one more year before I bury Bellicheck.  NE had a lot of good players opt out this year and had no qb.

Bill will get a qb this offseason and those players will be back.  If the pats stink again this year, then Ill question his greatness.