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If Bill Bellichick was such a genius,, then why didn't they keep Tom Brady for 2 more seasons?


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14 minutes ago, DonCorleone said:

Fair point. I always stated that Brady was a product of a great system. It is now obvious that I had that in reverse. 

It could be both. He wasn’t the same QB when he was younger than he became in time. Like Belichick wasn’t the same HC with Cleveland that he became after another 5 years of coordinator/AHC experience. 

Brady wasn’t exactly rewriting passing records until he was several years into his career. The defense (and cheating; don’t forget the cheating) carried multiple NE championship teams, and when it didn’t - e.g. 2002 - Brady was the QB of a 9-7 team without a WC berth. He became a much greater QB as he gained more experience, which is quite common. 

Likewise it’d be ignorant to say Belichick didn’t benefit immensely from Brady’s play undoing/erasing so many bad coaching decisions, but no one’s making that claim.

If Belichick continues to coach another 5 years and, despite competent-enough QBing, is still middling with 7-9 records then the Belichicken & egg answer becomes clearer.

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1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I agree with most of this but I’m not going to buy the idea that the difference between success and failure is all on the QB. A team can have stellar QB play and still suck (see Watson, as people love to point out as though anyone else - Brady & Mahomes included - would have the playoffs in his place). Put Watson on the Bucs or Chiefs and I think they have little problem getting where they are now. I can’t crown him with a conf championship or a SB ring without doing it, as the ball sometimes bounces in funny ways no matter who’s the QB, but it’s not hard to imagine Watson in the SB on such otherwise stacked teams.

What I’m not going to buy is the idea that the difference between HC Adam Gase and HC Bill Belichick is a QB. The Chargers won even fewer games than NE despite probowl-level play from its rookie QB. The difference between their respective teams finishing one game better or worse than the other is Herbert getting shut out by NE. 

Cam Newton wasn’t demonstrably better than Darnold - which is saying something about his arm, considering how much more experience he has - Stidham even worse than Newton, and somehow still NE came within a game of .500. It’s easy to look at Newton’s numbers and forget that 3 of his meager 8 TD passes (in 15 starts) came in week 17 against the Jets. He was starting because there was no one else.

What’s been so overrated about Belichick is the dripping genius shine that sports media mouthpieces have been making on his balls with every poor decision he made in the offseason. He’s an overrated semi-GM but a top coach. No players or coaches have come out of there and said, “Yeah nothing special about this program at all; it’s just Brady and everyone knows it.” While 7-9 is a crap record, there are even crappier records, and I can’t think of a team with starting QBs incapable of throwing more than 5 TDs in its first 15 games. 

@Anthony Jet put it well: they both benefited immensely from each other. Without the other this year, Belichick was on a team with opt-outs and shoulderless QBs; converselely Brady was surrounded by a cast that’d benefit any QB who wasn’t committing even half of Winston’s unbelievable 35 turnovers (including his record 7 pick-6s).

The difference between BB and Gase with the same 2020 Patriots roster is about 5 wins. BB gets players to play above their heads while Gase doesn't. Although, It's a lot easier to get from 2 wins to 7 wins then it is from 7 wins to 12 wins so its not as impressive as you think. But I don't think BB has anything to do with Bradys success statistically. In fact his neglect of the offensive roster around Brady probably cost Brady an additional 50 TDs throughout his career and probably a couple of more Super Bowls.

If you put Stafford on the Patriots the last 10 years do they go to 5 Super Bowls and win 3 of them? No, I wouldn't think they win 1 Super Bowl with the talent they've had around Brady the past 10 years.

HC's succeed almost entirely based on QB play. Is it a coincidence that when Darnold played like a top 15 QB at the end of the 2019 season that the Jets went 7-1 the 2nd half? Wins and losses are more dependent on QB play in the nfl then they are with any single player in any other sport.

Look at these teams from 2019 to 2020 and the difference better QB play made.

Steelers +5 wins

Browns +4 wins

Colts +3 wins

Dolphins +5 wins

Bills +2 wins

Now these teams that had worse QB play in 2020:

Patriots -5 wins

Jets -5 wins

Jaguars -5 wins

 

The question is if BB had the Jets QB situation the last 20 years with the same Patriots roster he's had during those same years how many Super Bowls does he win. Maybe one,  maybe. 

If you add Tom Brady to the Rex Ryan Jets teams we're probably looking at 2-3 Super Bowls in that 5 year period and Rex Ryan as a HOF HC. QB's make HC's. BB is a great coach, without Tom Brady he's not a legend or HOF.

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3 minutes ago, choon328 said:

The difference between BB and Gase with the same 2020 Patriots roster is about 5 wins. BB gets players to play above their heads while Gase doesn't.  But I don't think BB has anything to do with Bradys success statistically. In fact his neglect of the offensive roster around Brady probably cost Brady an additional 50 TDs throughout his career and probably a couple of more Super Bowls.

If you put Stafford on the Patriots the last 10 years do they go to 5 Super Bowls and win 3 of them? No, I wouldn't think they win 1 Super Bowl with the talent they've had around Brady the past 10 years.

HC's succeed almost entirely based on QB play. Is it a coincidence that when Darnold played like a top 15 QB at the end of the 2019 season that the Jets went 7-1 the 2nd half? Wins and losses are more dependent on QB play in the nfl then they are with any single player in any other sport.

Look at these teams from 2019 to 2020 and the difference better QB play made.

Steelers +5 wins

Browns +4 wins

Colts +3 wins

Dolphins +5 wins

Bills +2 wins

Now these teams that had worse QB play in 2020:

Patriots -5 wins

Jets -5 wins

Jaguars -5 wins

Gase:

5 seasons as HC

1 Wild Card playoff appearance

16 games under .500

 

Belichick:

8 seasons as HC without Brady

1 Wild Card playoff appearance

11 games under .500

 

 

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20 hours ago, choon328 said:

The difference between BB and Gase with the same 2020 Patriots roster is about 5 wins. BB gets players to play above their heads while Gase doesn't. Although, It's a lot easier to get from 2 wins to 7 wins then it is from 7 wins to 12 wins so its not as impressive as you think. But I don't think BB has anything to do with Bradys success statistically. In fact his neglect of the offensive roster around Brady probably cost Brady an additional 50 TDs throughout his career and probably a couple of more Super Bowls.

If you put Stafford on the Patriots the last 10 years do they go to 5 Super Bowls and win 3 of them? No, I wouldn't think they win 1 Super Bowl with the talent they've had around Brady the past 10 years.

HC's succeed almost entirely based on QB play. Is it a coincidence that when Darnold played like a top 15 QB at the end of the 2019 season that the Jets went 7-1 the 2nd half? Wins and losses are more dependent on QB play in the nfl then they are with any single player in any other sport.

Look at these teams from 2019 to 2020 and the difference better QB play made.

Steelers +5 wins

Browns +4 wins

Colts +3 wins

Dolphins +5 wins

Bills +2 wins

Now these teams that had worse QB play in 2020:

Patriots -5 wins

Jets -5 wins

Jaguars -5 wins

 

The question is if BB had the Jets QB situation the last 20 years with the same Patriots roster he's had during those same years how many Super Bowls does he win. Maybe one,  maybe. 

If you add Tom Brady to the Rex Ryan Jets teams we're probably looking at 2-3 Super Bowls in that 5 year period and Rex Ryan as a HOF HC. QB's make HC's. BB is a great coach, without Tom Brady he's not a legend or HOF.

I don’t think it’s such an easy “this would’ve happened” and “that wouldn’t have happened” with so much swapping on so many teams over so many years. It’s an impossible split test to perform, of course, but awarding people wins and losses they didn’t earn is just dreaming; including the presumption of what QB Brady would have developed into in a different situation than the one from which he benefitted as well.

It reminds me of “if we had ____” as the QB or HC or whatever, then fans like to take any wins gained and put them in their pockets, and from there start adding in additional wins that woulda happened. It doesn’t work that way.

So it comes down to merely one’s personal belief, unless you’re talking about such an extreme (e.g. Gase/Belichick) which I thought was silly that the HC is just going along for the ride, and the difference between the two as a HC is Tom Brady. If that was the case no HCs would need to get fired or promoted.

I think it’s an overly simplified argument that is being taken to an extreme to devalue the HC like he’s just an elite driver’s sleeping passenger. You can get to a superbowl with Matt Ryan and you can finish 4-12 with Matt Ryan. You can win 14 games with Rodgers and can win just 6 games with Rodgers. 

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44 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I don’t think it’s such an easy “this would’ve happened” and “that wouldn’t have happened” with so much swapping on so many teams over so many years. It’s an impossible split test to perform, of course, but awarding people wins and losses they didn’t earn is just dreaming; including the presumption of what QB Brady would have developed into in a different situation than the one from which he benefitted as well.

It reminds me of “if we had ____” as the QB or HC or whatever, then fans like to take any wins gained and put them in their pockets, and from there start adding in additional wins that woulda happened. It doesn’t work that way.

So it comes down to merely one’s personal belief, unless you’re talking about such an extreme (e.g. Gase/Belichick) which I thought was silly that the HC is just going along for the ride, and the difference between the two as a HC is Tom Brady. If that was the case no HCs would need to get fired or promoted.

I think it’s an overly simplified argument that is being taken to an extreme to devalue the HC like he’s just an elite driver’s passenger. You can get to a superbowl with Matt Ryan and you can finish 4-12 with Matt Ryan. You can win 14 games with Rodgers and can win just 6 games with Rodgers. 

I get what you're saying but Brady is in a different stratosphere then any of the guys you mentioned and pretty much any other QB who has played the last 30 years. I don't think that's debatable at this point. He's also proven that you get 10+ wins from him every year, there is never a dip. That's what separates him from the rest. The 1 year the Patriots have a dip is the year he's gone. I don't think that's a coincidence.  The Buccaneers were 17-31 the last 3 years with Evans and Godwin. 7-9 last year with a very similar roster, then Brady shows up and they're in the Super Bowl. Let's also not forget that he's in a completely different system then he's played the past 20 years as well. You can't treat his situation with BB to any other QB bc there has never been a QB like him. Would BB have win division titles without him? Sure. But those 6 win dips that BB's never experienced as a HC with the Patriots would have certainly happened. 

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4 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Again, I think that’s an oversimplification. One wasn’t left coaching the equivalent team that the other left to QB. Coaching a depleted NE roster isn’t an equal measure of QBing for a team with a loaded roster and with competent coaching. No doubt it’s nuts that he’s even still in the league at 43. 

how about this for a simplification.  What is the difference between last years bucs and this years bucs?

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3 hours ago, nyjunc said:

Gase:

5 seasons as HC

1 Wild Card playoff appearance

16 games under .500

 

Belichick:

8 seasons as HC without Brady

1 Wild Card playoff appearance

11 games under .500

 

 

My point is more that you can’t just plug in unequal ingredients and then equally judge what was cooked. 

Never mind that including Belichick’s Cleveland years is meh evidence. He’s considered a top coach because of the HC he grew into with NE in his 50s; not the HC he was with Cleveland years earlier when he wasn’t ready for it at age 40. 

Kind of like judging Pete Carroll 2014-2020 and saying, “Yeah but look at that year he had as HC of the NYJ” as though it’s relevant.

Likewise - and I don’t see this happening, mind you - if Gase is given another chance in 5+ years and in that time has matured into a better and more complete HC, I’d judge him on that not his tenure with the Dolphins & Jets when he wasn’t. 

It’s too much of a whitewashing oversimplification to suggest a HC, after another decade of much-needed experience, is the same HC he was before it happened. Just like Brady wasn’t as good of a QB in 2002 as he was in 2010, and I’m sure he’d be the first to say so. 

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2 hours ago, choon328 said:

The difference between BB and Gase with the same 2020 Patriots roster is about 5 wins. BB gets players to play above their heads while Gase doesn't. Although, It's a lot easier to get from 2 wins to 7 wins then it is from 7 wins to 12 wins so its not as impressive as you think. But I don't think BB has anything to do with Bradys success statistically. In fact his neglect of the offensive roster around Brady probably cost Brady an additional 50 TDs throughout his career and probably a couple of more Super Bowls.

If you put Stafford on the Patriots the last 10 years do they go to 5 Super Bowls and win 3 of them? No, I wouldn't think they win 1 Super Bowl with the talent they've had around Brady the past 10 years.

HC's succeed almost entirely based on QB play. Is it a coincidence that when Darnold played like a top 15 QB at the end of the 2019 season that the Jets went 7-1 the 2nd half? Wins and losses are more dependent on QB play in the nfl then they are with any single player in any other sport.

Look at these teams from 2019 to 2020 and the difference better QB play made.

Steelers +5 wins

Browns +4 wins

Colts +3 wins

Dolphins +5 wins

Bills +2 wins

Now these teams that had worse QB play in 2020:

Patriots -5 wins

Jets -5 wins

Jaguars -5 wins

 

The question is if BB had the Jets QB situation the last 20 years with the same Patriots roster he's had during those same years how many Super Bowls does he win. Maybe one,  maybe. 

If you add Tom Brady to the Rex Ryan Jets teams we're probably looking at 2-3 Super Bowls in that 5 year period and Rex Ryan as a HOF HC. QB's make HC's. BB is a great coach, without Tom Brady he's not a legend or HOF.

Nonsense. Bill Belicheck is a great coach.  He was a great DC with the Giants and he's been a great HC in the NFL.  Bypass all the hate mongering and look at the total picture.  Belicheck knows how to substitute talent and get eth most out of his players.  It was Belicheck who drafted Brady IN THE 6TH ROUIND no less. Of course like any HC/GM he's had his miscues but he is a master of flexing his roster and moving chess pieces around.  He's been able to put out a competitive product year after year. That's impressive.  He's a great teacher which is what coaching is all about.  There's been many great coaches that didn't get their acclaim.  There is more to coaching than winning.  Lombardi didn't win in Washington. Does that make him a loser.  Brady and Belicheck just came together at the right time.  It was Belicheck who took teh risk and stayed with Brady over Bledsoe who was already an accomplished QB at the time.  If anything, I credit Belicheck with Brady's success more than the other way around. 

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40 minutes ago, whodeawhodat said:

how about this for a simplification.  What is the difference between last years bucs and this years bucs?

Hm... 

  • removing dickhead Winston and his 35 turnovers
  • plus an upgraded OL (not just drafting Wirfs who played great as a rookie, but Cappa graduating from 1st yr starter to 2nd yr starter wasn’t nothing)
  • plus upgrading from Peyton Barber to Fournette to spell RJII
  • plus surrendering a TD less per game aggregately
  • plus JPP not missing half the season (for those who favor such oversimplification, just looking at JPP alone at first glance it looks like they were 2-6 without him and 5-3 with him last year)
  • plus adding Brady’s favorite HOF TE
  • plus another year of needed starting experience for four young starters on D (White, Bunting, Davis, Whitehead) plus an upgraded starting FS in Winfield to relegate Andrew Adams to where he belongs as a backup
  • plus dumping ultra-bust Hargreaves onto the Texans instead of starting more than half a season for the Bucs
  • plus the last 2 games they lost in 2019 without both Evans & Godwin

You mean other than that? Yeah I guess there was no difference at all from last year’s and this year’s Bucs. Just Brady and nothing else. 

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30 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Great, the debate is over!  So why do you continue to root for Brady?

Gotta love it. "No QB could succeed in Jets current situation" and "Gase failed to develop Sam Darnold."

But hey, Brady was pre-ordained to be the GOAT and Belichick gets no credit in molding a 6th round pick into the greatest QB of all time.

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7 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Hm... 

  • removing dickhead Winston and his 35 turnovers
  • plus an upgraded OL (not just drafting Wirfs who played great as a rookie, but Cappa graduating from 1st yr starter to 2nd yr starter wasn’t nothing)
  • plus upgrading from Peyton Barber to Fournette to spell RJII
  • plus surrendering a TD less per game aggregately
  • plus JPP not missing half the season (for those who favor such oversimplification, just looking at JPP alone at first glance it looks like they were 2-6 without him and 5-3 with him last year)
  • plus adding Brady’s favorite HOF TE
  • plus another year of needed starting experience for four young starters on D (White, Bunting, Davis, Whitehead) plus an upgraded starting FS in Winfield to relegate Andrew Adams to where he belongs as a backup
  • plus dumping ultra-bust Hargreaves onto the Texans instead of starting more than half a season for the Bucs
  • plus the last 2 games they lost in 2019 without both Evans & Godwin

You mean other than that? Yeah I guess there was no difference at all from last year’s and this year’s Bucs. Just Brady and nothing else. 

wow, you are really reaching with a lot of these. gronk is a difference maker this year? cappa is a game changer? a year under the belt of the same players that were there last year?  Just call it what it is, brady is the difference and yes, he also helps a defense by keeping them off the field(not sure if that falls under getting rid of winston or getting brady but whatevs). 

 

As jets fans we need to remember this as winston is a FA and I guarantee we will be sorry if he winds up starting here.

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18 hours ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

Brady wanted out. They couldn't stand each other anymore. 

Familiarity breeds contempt.  That was a strange divorce no doubt.  Brady was totally frustrated with the lack of WR's he was given to work with in his last years with the Pats. 

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18 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Hm... 

  • removing dickhead Winston and his 35 turnovers
  • plus an upgraded OL (not just drafting Wirfs who played great as a rookie, but Cappa graduating from 1st yr starter to 2nd yr starter wasn’t nothing)
  • plus upgrading from Peyton Barber to Fournette to spell RJII
  • plus surrendering a TD less per game aggregately
  • plus JPP not missing half the season (for those who favor such oversimplification, just looking at JPP alone at first glance it looks like they were 2-6 without him and 5-3 with him last year)
  • plus adding Brady’s favorite HOF TE
  • plus another year of needed starting experience for four young starters on D (White, Bunting, Davis, Whitehead) plus an upgraded starting FS in Winfield to relegate Andrew Adams to where he belongs as a backup
  • plus dumping ultra-bust Hargreaves onto the Texans instead of starting more than half a season for the Bucs
  • plus the last 2 games they lost in 2019 without both Evans & Godwin

You mean other than that? Yeah I guess there was no difference at all from last year’s and this year’s Bucs. Just Brady and nothing else. 

Brady had a very good year. Was it great? I'd say it was above average.  Just look at his WR's: Miller, Evans, Gronk, Godwin. Talk about a treasure trove.  And Fournette who had a very good year. And LB White who totally transformed that defense. That kid is the next great LB in the NFL.   That is a very good team.  Arians did wonders with them in just one season.  

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21 minutes ago, whodeawhodat said:

wow, you are really reaching with a lot of these. gronk is a difference maker this year? cappa is a game changer? a year under the belt of the same players that were there last year?  Just call it what it is, brady is the difference and yes, he also helps a defense by keeping them off the field(not sure if that falls under getting rid of winston or getting brady but whatevs). 

 

As jets fans we need to remember this as winston is a FA and I guarantee we will be sorry if he winds up starting here.

You asked what changes there were. 

A team isn’t one player, no matter how much people are oversimplifying Brady as the only change. There were upgrades in names, improved play, an extra year in the same system for a lot of young starters, and depending on which games you’re looking at, in doing so upwards of half their starting positions — at least the number of games difference from 7 wins to 11. 

If all these other changes were nothing, then why did Tampa bother to make them? All they needed to do is add Brady and it’s that simple. 

No doubt Brady was a huge get for them, and is a major upgrade from Winston who held them back a lot, but if the Bucs were still giving up ~30 ppg it’s very likely they don’t make the playoffs with or without him, let alone advance to the SB.

Losing 2 probowl WRs and losing both those games is nothing, even though they dropped both those last 2 games without them.

Missing JPP for the first half of the season, while simultaneouslly starting Hargreaves at corner, and starting out 2-6 over that span is nothing.

Just the above two lines arguably accounts for the difference between 7-9 and 10-6 even with Winston at QB. Plus all the other individual improvements made, and how they add together collectively, is also apparently the same as doing nothing.

It’s all just Brady. The man on TV told me so. Lol.

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8 minutes ago, Wonderboy said:

Brady had a very good year. Was it great? I'd say it was above average.  Just look at his WR's: Miller, Evans, Gronk, Godwin. Talk about a treasure trove.  And Fournette who had a very good year. And LB White who totally transformed that defense. That kid is the next great LB in the NFL.   That is a very good team.  Arians did wonders with them in just one season.  

Nope. It’s just Brady. Can’t you read?

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48 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You asked what changes there were. 

A team isn’t one player, no matter how much people are oversimplifying Brady as the only change. There were upgrades in names, improved play, an extra year in the same system for a lot of young starters, and depending on which games you’re looking at, in doing so upwards of half their starting positions — at least the number of games difference from 7 wins to 11. 

If all these other changes were nothing, then why did Tampa bother to make them? All they needed to do is add Brady and it’s that simple. 

No doubt Brady was a huge get for them, and is a major upgrade from Winston who held them back a lot, but if the Bucs were still giving up ~30 ppg it’s very likely they don’t make the playoffs with or without him, let alone advance to the SB.

Losing 2 probowl WRs and losing both those games is nothing, even though they dropped both those last 2 games without them.

Missing JPP for the first half of the season, while simultaneouslly starting Hargreaves at corner, and starting out 2-6 over that span is nothing.

Just the above two lines arguably accounts for the difference between 7-9 and 10-6 even with Winston at QB. Plus all the other individual improvements made, and how they add together collectively, is also apparently the same as doing nothing.

It’s all just Brady. The man on TV told me so. Lol.

I dont know who the man on TV is but I watch more bucs games than you.  I will tell you this, it is as close to the same team as last year more than any other team in the NFL.  I will say that again just to emphasize it, it is the same team as last year more than any other team in the NFL.  Did they replace their starting RT with a 1st round draft pick. yes. JPP has been outstanding, not going to apologize about that, suh was better last year and missed time this year.  What about corona and the limited offseason for Brady? How bout them apples?  you didnt mention that either.  Their defense was very good last year and their Oline wasnt bad either, much better than some gave them credit for that is for sure but you know(or maybe you dont) that a QB helps his oline, helps his defense.  Brady still has the touch and timing and tampa brought him here for a chip, not for personal records although he is just piling on more now that he is beating the NFC up.  3 road wins to get to the superbowl.  Went through GB too.

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12 minutes ago, whodeawhodat said:

I dont know who the man on TV is but I watch more bucs games than you.  I will tell you this, it is as close to the same team as last year more than any other team in the NFL.  I will say that again just to emphasize it, it is the same team as last year more than any other team in the NFL.  Did they replace their starting RT with a 1st round draft pick. yes. JPP has been outstanding, not going to apologize about that, suh was better last year and missed time this year.  What about corona and the limited offseason for Brady? How bout them apples?  you didnt mention that either.  Their defense was very good last year and their Oline wasnt bad either, much better than some gave them credit for that is for sure but you know(or maybe you dont) that a QB helps his oline, helps his defense.  Brady still has the touch and timing and tampa brought him here for a chip, not for personal records although he is just piling on more now that he is beating the NFC up.  3 road wins to get to the superbowl.  Went through GB too.

Young players don’t at all improve from one year to the next because their names are still the same. Gotcha. 

There’s no difference starting arguably the worst CB in football for 9 games and upgrading a year later. Gotcha.

There’s no difference between JPP missing the first half of 2019 as the team went 2-6. Gotcha.

Evans and Godwin weren’t really valuable to the team last year, and coincidentally losing both of the last 2 games without either of them means nothing. Gotcha.

Covid needs to be listed as a reason Tampa should be worse, but is not relevant for the other teams they played. Gotcha. 

For these many younger starters, a second year in the system is exactly the same as the first. Gotcha.

The only way to upgrade from a QB with 35 turnovers is to singularly add Tom Brady. Gotcha.

But apples and Brady touching. Gotcha. 

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4 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Young players don’t at all improve from one year to the next because their names are still the same. Gotcha. 

There’s no difference starting arguably the worst CB in football for 9 games and upgrading a year later. Gotcha.

There’s no difference between JPP missing the first half of 2019 as the team went 2-6. Gotcha.

Evans and Godwin weren’t really valuable to the team last year, and coincidentally losing both of the last 2 games without either of them means nothing. Gotcha.

Covid needs to be listed as a reason Tampa should be worse, but is not relevant for the other teams they played. Gotcha. 

For these many younger starters, a second year in the system is exactly the same as the first. Gotcha.

The only way to upgrade from a QB with 35 turnovers is to singularly add Tom Brady. Gotcha.

But apples and Brady touching. Gotcha. 

*deletes response*

I cant..

you win...

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4 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

It could be both. He wasn’t the same QB when he was younger than he became in time. Like Belichick wasn’t the same HC with Cleveland that he became after another 5 years of coordinator/AHC experience. 

Brady wasn’t exactly rewriting passing records until he was several years into his career. The defense (and cheating; don’t forget the cheating) carried multiple NE championship teams, and when it didn’t - e.g. 2002 - Brady was the QB of a 9-7 team without a WC berth. He became a much greater QB as he gained more experience, which is quite common. 

Likewise it’d be ignorant to say Belichick didn’t benefit immensely from Brady’s play undoing/erasing so many bad coaching decisions, but no one’s making that claim.

If Belichick continues to coach another 5 years and, despite competent-enough QBing, is still middling with 7-9 records then the Belichicken & egg answer becomes clearer.

All fair and accurate points. The cheating in my opinion, takes a lot of the luster out. People forget the second set of frequencies found during spygate in Brady's helmet. Boy, the NFL quieted that down quickly.

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Without getting into the weeds you can look generally at the two teams and see how much of a difference Brady made in the performances of both teams. 

There is no doubt Belichick built a system that produced results (cheating or no) with the benefit of a great QB. How much Brady was a part of that will take more time to sort out. Was Brady covering for less than stellar coaching? Belichick's coordinators haven't had much success as head coaches. Was Brady covering for a declining roster? The team didn't look great even beyond Newton. The NE teams have been looking worse and worse every year for like the past decade. This isn't a team that had to sacrifice to afford to pay for a FQB. They had a lot of liberty to draft and sign good players who would want to play for a winning team. I think Belichick is a good coach who has a good system, lucked into a FQB who mysteriously didn't mind making less than he was worth, came into a strong team from the outset and made a few really important decisions and turned it into an incredible dynasty. 

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6 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Put Brady on NE this year and they win 11 games.

Of course it matters.

Yes and put Brady on Adam gases Jets this year and they win 5 

Conversley put Watson on NE this year and they win 10 if we are saying they win 11 with Brady. 
 

All I’m saying is they greatly benefited from each other, did BB benefit more than TB did, maybe. 

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20 hours ago, Matt39 said:

Belichick made a bad error with Cam, who was one of the worst passers the league has ever seen this year. Brady didnt play all that well today, but is now on a loaded roster.

I wouldnt count on the Pats being totally dead. They'll improve at QB next season. 

You’re only saying that cuz you haven’t seen a Jets game since the Jets were 8-3 in 2008. 

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19 minutes ago, Anthony Jet said:

Yes and put Brady on Adam gases Jets this year and they win 5 

Conversley put Watson on NE this year and they win 10 if we are saying they win 11 with Brady. 
 

All I’m saying is they greatly benefited from each other, did BB benefit more than TB did, maybe. 

Brady win 5 here? That awful QB play we had, got us 2 plus the Raiders freebie. Essentially 3. Brady easily win 8 here. 

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9 minutes ago, Jet2020 said:

Brady win 5 here? That awful QB play we had, got us 2 plus the Raiders freebie. Essentially 3. Brady easily win 8 here. 

This is an example of pocketing wins in one scenario and then, because of an upgrade to the team/coach, automatically assume that same win can be pocketed. It doesn’t work that way, though.

We might have won 5 other games with Brady over Darnold/Flacco, but then may have lost the Cleveland and/or Rams games and still may not have beaten the Raiders (though for different reasons). Brady didn’t win vs the Rams even with the extra support/benefit of the rest of Tampa’s roster & coaching.

Don’t discount how much those teams may have played down to the competition by presuming an easy win that wouldn’t have gone down the same way if we weren’t perceived as pushovers. In other words, we may still have ended up just 6-10 or worse.

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