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The QB School: Darnold & Zach Wilson


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2 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

I feel like the Jets were relying on Palmer to do their job of teaching Darnold the little things. The failure to give Darnold an in-season Palmer i.e. a QB coach, is unforgivable.

The truly sad thing is had Darnold had a QB coach working closely with him all year, JD would know the answers to all of his questions about Darnold.

 

8 hours ago, TokyoJetsFan said:

Maybe we should ask Darnold not to go to Jordan Palmers summer camp this year. Certainly not helping him.

How does one explain how Josh Allen, who also attends,  became a top 3 QB this season?  Can't be all Daboll can it?  Is it possible Sam is more difficult to coach?

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Quarterback throw ball. Defense try stop.  

Interesting channel. Worth passing along. For all the "content" channels like NFL Network and ESPN put forth about the sport, none of it is as interesting as stuff like this.   

I watched and it’s interesting. Pretty good arm, great accuracy, but what stands out to me is how clean his pockets were on all of those throws. 

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2 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

You watch that NFC Championship game with JPP and Shaw Barrett taking turns getting up into Aaron Rodgers’ ass crack on every play and you have to wonder how a guy like Wilson will adjust to playing under that kind of duress when he’s been living with clean pockets on every down in college. 

We all know that a good pass rush can change a game, that’s why the best pass rushers get drafted high every year.  If a good pass rush can beat Rodgers, a good pass rush can beat any qb so that’s not an indictment for wilson.  Of course, you can take the other side of the coin on your contention and say that a crappy OL can doom any qb.  

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1 minute ago, Augustiniak said:

I think the underlying assumption is that douglas can trade out of 2 if he wants.  If not, ultimately i think douglas would take the best wr on his board.

The assumption is that no one wants 2. It costs 3 second round picks to get from 6 to 3 no one is going to cough up actual value for 2.

Best wr? Fine and dandy. The team needs to score points 

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1 minute ago, rayzor said:

 

How does one explain how Josh Allen, who also attends,  became a top 3 QB this season?  Can't be all Daboll can it?  Is it possible Sam is more difficult to coach?

And sometimes you just pick the wrong guy, which is hopefully what douglas decides mccagnan did.

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Just now, bitonti said:

The assumption is that no one wants 2. It costs 3 second round picks to get from 6 to 3 no one is going to cough up actual value for 2.

Best wr? Fine and dandy. The team needs to score points 

We won’t know how sellable the 2 pick is until draft time.  Usually, if there are qbs teams think are worth taking, you can trade out of the 2 spot.  There’s also no rule you have to adhere to the draft trade value chart, you’re allowed to take less if you feel you’re helping the jets.  If douglas does trade out i expect it to be with atlanta so the cost isn’t crazy and douglas can still get his guy at 4.

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2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

People who say trade down are being captain obvious. Jd of course wants to trade down for a pile of picks. Start considering the plan at 2 when that doesn't happen. 

Than you bite the bullet and you take Pitts. He is one of kind. All of the other players have players of similar talent level available. 

And then you take trade offers for Pitts because those teams sitting at 5 through 10 thought they were going to steal him. If you don't get an offer you like, so be it. Pitts is a unicorn. NFL D's hate playing against unicorns. See e.g. Lamar Jackson, Derrick Henry and Tyreek Hill.

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9 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

I think processing speed refers to both pre snap and post snap.  Game speed also matters, how quickly qbs set up and release.  To me darnold is a slower setter upper, his feet/body mechanics/release is slow.  He can scramble but that’s not what I’m talking about.  You watch good qbs like Rodgers/mahomes, they set up quickly and get the ball out quickly.  These are important underrated skills.  Wilson seems to be of the quick variety, sets up and gets rid of it quickly.  Darnold is more of a plodder/mechanical qb.  It’s not about arm strength or pure speed.  I’ll give you another quick setter upper, burrow.  That’s why he’s good, not b/c of his running speed or arm strength.  He sees the field and gets rid of it quickly.

He had no problem getting rid of the ball quickly against the Rams. Maybe the reason was the running backs we're finally a part of the passing game, and Ty Johnson was allowed to show his skills, instead of Gase's. favorite. Gore.

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5 minutes ago, rayzor said:

 

How does one explain how Josh Allen, who also attends,  became a top 3 QB this season?  Can't be all Daboll can it?  Is it possible Sam is more difficult to coach?

Personally, I think Allen is hungrier than Sam. But, the Bills not only have a QB coach, they also have an Assistant QB coach! On top of that their Assistant WR Coach is also the Game Management Coach.

So, it is safe to say that Allen gets more one on one coach time than Darnold.

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7 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

We all know that a good pass rush can change a game, that’s why the best pass rushers get drafted high every year.  If a good pass rush can beat Rodgers, a good pass rush can beat any qb so that’s not an indictment for wilson.  Of course, you can take the other side of the coin on your contention and say that a crappy OL can doom any qb.  

The difference is that it appears Wilson will be going from life with no pass rush to life with a consistent pass rush that he has yet to experience. 

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1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

The difference is that it appears Wilson will be going from life with no pass rush to life with a consistent pass rush that he has yet to experience. 

There’s qbs from good schools who have inherent talent advantages, like burrow, who have to adapt to the nfl on bad teams.  You either have the requisite skills or you don’t.  

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43 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

Yet his throws are all his, and there are enough plays where he’s out of the pocket and throws darts to guys with very good placement.  You either buy it or you don’t.  I think fields is a disaster on the jets, once you take away his inherent OSU talent advantage.  I think wilson has more anticipation than fields and a ‘quicker processor’ which may matter the most.  You love Sewell, ok, i think he’s a terrible mistake for the jets at 2.  I also think darnold is at best a game manager who needs simplified plays ala Sanchez b/c he can’t process what he sees.  I’d take wilson in a heartbeat over darnold and use him in the Shanahan O and have him getting the ball out quickly.

He’s also throwing to guys who aren’t open, often on his 3rd or 4th read...and he gets it away quickly. The argument that he’s playing against garbage falls apart when you recognise that means he’s also playing WITH garbage. He’s making it all happen for that team.

I really like him but now that he’s in the conversation at two the cat is out of the bag and his hype train is rolling.

His size and the shoulder are good reasons to pause and do a deep dive and they can’t be ignored, but I don’t know how you can watch him play and be anything other than wowed and intruiged. His arm talent and skill level are exciting as hell.

I loved the idea of dropping back even a few picks and taking him but right now it looks like he doesn’t get past 4 at best....still a long way to go in the evaluation process but if JD and his scouting team, along with the input of Saleh & LaFleur like him enough to take at 2 then I’ll buy on and hope for the best.

I’m not down on Fields at all, think I prefer him to Lawrence, but if we are sticking at 2 it must be for a QB. If we can’t find a trade back partner in this draft then that’s pretty poor....in fairness to Douglas, he showed a real shrewdness in manoeuvring last year.

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6 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

We won’t know how sellable the 2 pick is until draft time.  Usually, if there are qbs teams think are worth taking, you can trade out of the 2 spot.  There’s also no rule you have to adhere to the draft trade value chart, you’re allowed to take less if you feel you’re helping the jets.  If douglas does trade out i expect it to be with atlanta so the cost isn’t crazy and douglas can still get his guy at 4.

The draft value chart exists and everyone uses it. jd is not going to accept less than value. He's the same guy who took an extra 4th to get mims. 

We know that the 2 pick gets traded like once every 5 years if that. It's a 20 percent chance if history is a guide 

Some people talking about trade down from 2 like its assured or even likely. It's rare 

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4 minutes ago, genot said:

He had no problem getting rid of the ball quickly against the Rams. Maybe the reason was the running backs we're finally a part of the passing game, and Ty Johnson was allowed to show his skills, instead of Gase's. favorite. Gore.

My point about darnold is that you have to make him into a dinking game manager to win with him.  The longer he holds the ball the more likely something bad will happen, sack, pick, fumble.  You have to simplify the game for him, quick dump offs are key to this.  But that only masks his deficiencies, it doesn’t fix them.

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1 minute ago, bitonti said:

The draft value chart exists and everyone uses it. jd is not going to accept less than value. He's the same guy who took an extra 4th to get mims. 

We know that the 2 pick gets traded like once every 5 years if that. It's a 20 percent chance if history is a guide 

Some people talking about trade down from 2 like its assured or even likely. It's rare 

Douglas could take less in draft capital, but get a player back in a deal.  There’s ways around the pure draft chart value system.  But i do agree with you, that trades this high in the draft are difficult to execute, so if the jets do decide to roll with darnold they’ll probably be faced with some less than flattering trade offers or the prospect of taking a wr at 2.

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9 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

There’s qbs from good schools who have inherent talent advantages, like burrow, who have to adapt to the nfl on bad teams.  You either have the requisite skills or you don’t.  

 But even Burrow faced SEC pass rushes and was sacked 34 times during his monster season, so he was at least battle tested and had some film on him persevering. I don’t think we’d know if Wilson could handle that until he was in a Jets uniform after burning the #2 on him. 

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14 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

There’s qbs from good schools who have inherent talent advantages, like burrow, who have to adapt to the nfl on bad teams.  You either have the requisite skills or you don’t.  

Joe burrows knee exploded by week 9

QB need protection and weapons. It's as true of Geno Smith as it is Aaron Rodgers 

I used to think that players play and coaches coach. As I've matured I've realized that it's the program that matters. That takes years to build a culture and the Jets would be cruel to make a Zach wilson or even Justin fields show up for year 1 of this rebuild. They just don't have the infrastructure to support any qb right now, even if it's Trevor or Watson. 

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1 hour ago, QB1 said:

Both Darnold plays that you liked where pure anticipation throws

this guy doesn’t appear overly impressed with Wilson 

Neither was an anticipation throw - one was a see-it, throw-it and the other was a broken play that he turned into a holy-sh*t throw that didn’t end up caught. 

When I’m talking anticipatory, I mean before the receiver makes his cut - like Wilson was doing.

I get that Wilson has the skill to play on Sunday, and I’ll have to watch more, but right now I’m not sold. 

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30 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Than you bite the bullet and you take Pitts. He is one of kind. All of the other players have players of similar talent level available. 

And then you take trade offers for Pitts because those teams sitting at 5 through 10 thought they were going to steal him. If you don't get an offer you like, so be it. Pitts is a unicorn. NFL D's hate playing against unicorns. See e.g. Lamar Jackson, Derrick Henry and Tyreek Hill.

Pitts feels like a casual 10 slot reach at 2 overall 

A dude has to be Vernon Davis to go top 5 as a te. 

He's value around mid rd1 maybe 11 to the giants 

You mention tyreek hill, Devonta is that dude with character. 

In general I hate the idea of first Rd Jets te it's failed too many times before 

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2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Joe burrows knee exploded by week 9

QB need protection and weapons. It's as true of Geno Smith as it is Aaron Rodgers 

I used to think that players play and coaches coach. As I've matured I've realized that it's the program that matters. That takes years to build a culture and the Jets would be cruel to make a Zach wilson or even Justin fields show up for year 1 of this rebuild. They just don't have the infrastructure to support any qb right now, even if it's Trevor or Watson. 

Guys get injured, it sucks.  Darnold has proven to be injury prone.  Maybe if he got rid of the ball quicker he wouldn’t take as many hits.  But plenty of bad teams draft qbs without a great infrastructure and build it from scratch, but it starts with a good gm who can draft.  When you’re drafting guys from ghoston to Kyle Wilson to milliner to Stephen hill to 2 safeties with your 1st and 2nd round picks you’re not building that infrastructure.  

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2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Pitts feels like a casual 10 slot reach at 2 overall 

A dude has to be Vernon Davis to go top 5 as a te. 

He's value around mid rd1 maybe 11 to the giants 

You mention tyreek hill, Devonta is that dude with character. 

In general I hate the idea of first Rd Jets te it's failed too many times before 

For the older fans here it will be a tough sell to take a TE in the first round, no doubt.

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Long but interesting videos.  I wish he analyzed plays from different games as well.  Basically it does confirm what Jet fans already know.  Sam's accuracy is a big issue.  He just isn't consistent enough.  So the question is, can accuracy be coached?

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Just now, Augustiniak said:

Guys get injured, it sucks.  Darnold has proven to be injury prone.  Maybe if he got rid of the ball quicker he wouldn’t take as many hits.  But plenty of bad teams draft qbs without a great infrastructure and build it from scratch, but it starts with a good gm who can draft.  When you’re drafting guys from ghoston to Kyle Wilson to milliner to Stephen hill to 2 safeties with your 1st and 2nd round picks you’re not building that infrastructure.  

I'm actually having a really hard time finding situations where nfl teams build around the 1 or 2 overall pick from scratch. Aikman and luck maybe. A super bowl appearance from Goff? Baker Mayfield? 

Most times teams build a program then draft the qb. It works from the cap perspective to have Mahomes, Russell Wilson or Josh Allen on the rookie deal and load the other positions before the qb earns that half billion dollar extension. Teams don't need to go 1 or 2 or even 3 overall like darnold to get a qb. 

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25 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

My point about darnold is that you have to make him into a dinking game manager to win with him.  The longer he holds the ball the more likely something bad will happen, sack, pick, fumble.  You have to simplify the game for him, quick dump offs are key to this.  But that only masks his deficiencies, it doesn’t fix them.

The longer any QB, holds onto the ball he puts himself at risk. As a rookie he didn't have a problem finding Herndon and Anderson downfield. He was inconsistent. You would expect that. He was a rookie.

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1 minute ago, genot said:

The longer any QB, holds onto the ball he puts himself at risk. As a rookie he didn't have a problem finding Herndon and Anderson downfield. He was inconsistent. You would expect that. He was a rookie.

As a rookie he had 17 tds and 15 ints.  He is who he is.

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Interesting.  This is the first time in a long while that I've seen some support for the possibility that Darnold can be salvaged into a good QB.  I have felt this way all along.  I think the combination of crappy coaching, mediocre (at best) skill players, and sub-par protection has put him in a no-win situation.  Maybe 1 QB in 10 could still play well in that situation but I wouldn't bet on any rookie being that guy, not even Lawrence.  Taking a rookie who's never really seen pressure of any kind and dropping him into the same cauldron Darnold just spent three years in would not likely result in another Burrow/Herbert experience.  Just as likely it could go the other way.  Yes, even the impossibly talented Mr. Wilson could fail in that experiment.  

Sam isn't Mahomes and he never will be.  But he could be Favre if everything went more right than wrong for him and if we build a solid team around him, it could be a winning combination.  I'm not saying that's what I think JD should do, but I wouldn't label it wrong if he chose to.  I'd be open to seeing how it went for a season.  Maybe even excited.

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5 minutes ago, bitonti said:

I'm actually having a really hard time finding situations where nfl teams build around the 1 or 2 overall pick from scratch. Aikman and luck maybe. A super bowl appearance from Goff? Baker Mayfield? 

Most times teams build a program then draft the qb. It works from the cap perspective to have Mahomes, Russell Wilson or Josh Allen on the rookie deal and load the other positions before the qb earns that half billion dollar extension. Teams don't need to go 1 or 2 or even 3 overall like darnold to get a qb. 

I think the average nfl team has drafted considerably better than the jets, which implies that some of the better drafting teams have an inherently better infrastructure to groom qbs.  We’ve just had the worst situation, and we’re only beginning to fix it with a quality gm and hc.

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11 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

If it were that easy every rookie qb would get good at it.  I think some have it but most don’t.

I think it is the exception, rather than the rule, that QBs at the pro level increase their set up speed and release. If they don't it is because they are lazy. Frankly, while I don't view Sam as lazy, I do question what he is willing to sacrifice to become great. I just don't think being a great QB is important to him. Hopefully, if he remains a Jet, the new coaching staff will inspire him to work harder.

It may sound trite, especially in this day and age of the pro athlete, but I think Sam's coaches need to yell at him more. He needs to be handled in a more Machiavellian manner. 

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6 minutes ago, bitonti said:

I'm actually having a really hard time finding situations where nfl teams build around the 1 or 2 overall pick from scratch. Aikman and luck maybe. A super bowl appearance from Goff? Baker Mayfield? 

Most times teams build a program then draft the qb. It works from the cap perspective to have Mahomes, Russell Wilson or Josh Allen on the rookie deal and load the other positions before the qb earns that half billion dollar extension. Teams don't need to go 1 or 2 or even 3 overall like darnold to get a qb. 

Peyton.

Matt Ryan was #3 but similar.

Pretty much almost any QB drafted top-5 went to a crappy team that had to build around him.  It is interesting though that the best QBs in the league recently (Rodgers, Mahomes, Watson, Brady, Brees, Wilson) were all picked no earlier than #10 and in some cases, far lower.  

 

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11 minutes ago, rayzor said:

Long but interesting videos.  I wish he analyzed plays from different games as well.  Basically it does confirm what Jet fans already know.  Sam's accuracy is a big issue.  He just isn't consistent enough.  So the question is, can accuracy be coached?

I was of the opinion that it could not. Then Josh Allen happened, and now I just don't know.

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1 minute ago, Sonny Werblin said:

I think it is the exception, rather than the rule, that QBs at the pro level increase their set up speed and release. If they don't it is because they are lazy. Frankly, while I don't view Sam as lazy, I do question what he is willing to sacrifice to become great. I just don't think being a great QB is important to him. Hopefully, if he remains a Jet, the new coaching staff will inspire him to work harder.

It may sound trite, especially in this day and age of the pro athlete, but I think Sam's coaches need to yell at him more. He needs to be handled in a more Machiavellian manner. 

I think Gase has intimated a few times that Sam can’t handle hard coaching. It would appear that he tends to go into a shell under adverse conditions and is a classic mush in that sense. Saleh seems like the right personality to work with that kind of player who needs his head rubbed constantly, but Sam definitely needs some roughing up as a human.

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1 hour ago, bitonti said:

These linemen at byu are 2 years older than darnold, who is going into his 4th year as a pro 

Wilson has played garbage competition behind a line that's 7 years older than the freshman edge rushers they block 

Who cares?

What competition he played in college is absolutely meaningless on how he performs in the NFL.  No one cares who he played in college and no one is evaluating him on his offensive line.

He will be evaluated on how his skill-set will translate in the NFL.  He has all the necessary skills to be a FQB.  You make it seem like he's the only QB in college that has a lot of time.

All the good teams give their QB's a lot of time.  Wilson stands out because his skill-set translate very well to the NFL.

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5 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Interesting.  This is the first time in a long while that I've seen some support for the possibility that Darnold can be salvaged into a good QB.  I have felt this way all along.  I think the combination of crappy coaching, mediocre (at best) skill players, and sub-par protection has put him in a no-win situation.  Maybe 1 QB in 10 could still play well in that situation but I wouldn't bet on any rookie being that guy, not even Lawrence.  Taking a rookie who's never really seen pressure of any kind and dropping him into the same cauldron Darnold just spent three years in would not likely result in another Burrow/Herbert experience.  Just as likely it could go the other way.  Yes, even the impossibly talented Mr. Wilson could fail in that experiment.  

Sam isn't Mahomes and he never will be.  But he could be Favre if everything went more right than wrong for him and if we build a solid team around him, it could be a winning combination.  I'm not saying that's what I think JD should do, but I wouldn't label it wrong if he chose to.  I'd be open to seeing how it went for a season.  Maybe even excited.

Salvaged, perhaps, but that doesn’t mean turned into a good qb.  I consider trubisky to be a reasonable comp.  you can get to the playoffs with him if you minimize the damage he can do, but don’t rely on him to carry you through against the better teams.  

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6 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

As a rookie he had 17 tds and 15 ints.  He is who he is.

He was a rookie. He didn't have Williams, Henry and Keenan Allen to throw to like Herbert. Look at the chemistry he's developed with Crowder. Crowder has had his best season here. Darnold trusts him. Has chemistry with him. We need an outside receiver to develop that same chemistry. 

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54 minutes ago, bitonti said:

The assumption is that no one wants 2. It costs 3 second round picks to get from 6 to 3 no one is going to cough up actual value for 2.

Best wr? Fine and dandy. The team needs to score points 

The ideal? Atlanta wants our pick for the successor to Ryan.

Slide down, collect both their day 2 picks and take Chase or Sewell. 

But I’m good with taking either of those players at 2 if we can’t move. 

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2 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I think Gase has intimated a few times that Sam can’t handle hard coaching. It would appear that he tends to go into a shell under adverse conditions and is a classic mush in that sense. Saleh seems like the right personality to work with that kind of player who needs his head rubbed constantly, but Sam definitely needs some roughing up as a human.

I think Sam would have benefitted from some Parcell's like treatment. I feel like no-one ever demands more of the kid. Even now, all he gets is praise -- there is a reason he was the #3 overall pick. ....  Parcell's would follow that up with, he just has to start playing like one if he wants to stick around in this league. 

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