The QB School: Darnold & Zach Wilson

[RedBeardedSavage]

13 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Interesting.  This is the first time in a long while that I've seen some support for the possibility that Darnold can be salvaged into a good QB.  I have felt this way all along.  I think the combination of crappy coaching, mediocre (at best) skill players, and sub-par protection has put him in a no-win situation.  Maybe 1 QB in 10 could still play well in that situation but I wouldn't bet on any rookie being that guy, not even Lawrence.  Taking a rookie who's never really seen pressure of any kind and dropping him into the same cauldron Darnold just spent three years in would not likely result in another Burrow/Herbert experience.  Just as likely it could go the other way.  Yes, even the impossibly talented Mr. Wilson could fail in that experiment.  

Sam isn't Mahomes and he never will be.  But he could be Favre if everything went more right than wrong for him and if we build a solid team around him, it could be a winning combination.  I'm not saying that's what I think JD should do, but I wouldn't label it wrong if he chose to.  I'd be open to seeing how it went for a season.  Maybe even excited.

^ All of what this guy said is correct. 

[bitonti]

2 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

For the older fans here it will be a tough sell to take a TE in the first round, no doubt.

Older Fans Aka the season ticket buyers

The Devonta prediction from Kiper tracks because they need a star, bad. Whoever that is, this team threatens no one on offense. Smith can score touchdowns right away or at least make defenses safety cover him while others get open. If they decide chase is better, fair enough. 

The Sewell idea tracks to build a Staley / mcglinchy duo for Saleh. Most good teams have 2 tackles. Whatever offense they had last year was left handed. It would be nice to maul in either direction. 

The qb at 2 pick tracks with people who have other people buy jerseys for them. It's not great value and it's overly hopeful to believe that player would do better than darnold, just because he's different. 

[Gangrene]

1 hour ago, rayzor said:

 

How does one explain how Josh Allen, who also attends,  became a top 3 QB this season?  Can't be all Daboll can it?  Is it possible Sam is more difficult to coach?

Josh Allen is clearly a better football player but the the difference between Allen and Darnold is magnified by the O Line Josh Allen played behind plus the receivers he threw to , Stefon Diggs (ranked 4th), Cole Beasley (ranked 13th)

The Jets don't have a WR ranked in the top 25.

Bills ranked 10th in PFF O Line ranking

10. BUFFALO BILLS

The offensive line is just one example of how the Bills have done a tremendous job of building the right way around a young quarterback. They didn’t throw a lot of high-value resources at the offensive line, but they did take a fair amount of chances on players in free agency and continued to bring in guys who could contribute and eliminate areas of weakness.

A good example of that is right tackle Daryl Williams, who earned a 79.4 grade for Buffalo this season. Williams had a strong year at right tackle with the Panthers in 2017, but an injury-shortened 2018 campaign followed by a down year in 2019 across all four guard and tackle positions allowed the Bills to take a chance on Williams in free agency on just a one-year, $2.25 million contract. It’s safe to say that contract has paid off for Buffalo.

 

29. NEW YORK JETS

Overall it was a disappointing season for the offensive line in New York. They allowed pressure in 2.5 seconds or less on 28% of their dropbacks — the worst rate in the NFL. The line wasn’t creating many lanes in the run game, either. The Jets averaged just 1.1 yards per carry before contact per rushing attempt in 2020 (30th). Once again, they’ll have to look to add pieces to their offensive line this offseason.

[nycdan]

Quote

29. NEW YORK JETS

Overall it was a disappointing season for the offensive line in New York. They allowed pressure in 2.5 seconds or less on 28% of their dropbacks — the worst rate in the NFL. The line wasn’t creating many lanes in the run game, either. The Jets averaged just 1.1 yards per carry before contact per rushing attempt in 2020 (30th). Once again, they’ll have to look to add pieces to their offensive line this offseason.

This is not a recipe for good QB play.  No matter who the QB is.

[Gangrene]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

I think Gase has intimated a few times that Sam can’t handle hard coaching. It would appear that he tends to go into a shell under adverse conditions and is a classic mush in that sense. Saleh seems like the right personality to work with that kind of player who needs his head rubbed constantly, but Sam definitely needs some roughing up as a human.

That's interesting, Darnold in his usual radio spots sounded pretty down. Yes, maybe any qb in a 2 win season sounds down, but he came off as a clinically depressed individual. Not that I blame him behind the Jets O line and throwing to Berrios and company.

Mike La Fleur might be a more nuanced fit for Darnold.

[RedBeardedSavage]

16 minutes ago, Gangrene said:

29. NEW YORK JETS

Overall it was a disappointing season for the offensive line in New York. They allowed pressure in 2.5 seconds or less on 28% of their dropbacks — the worst rate in the NFL. The line wasn’t creating many lanes in the run game, either. The Jets averaged just 1.1 yards per carry before contact per rushing attempt in 2020 (30th). Once again, they’ll have to look to add pieces to their offensive line this offseason.

Both of those stats are disgusting but don't surprise me.

Week 17 the Patriots were rushing three, dropping 8 and generating pressure immediately. 

Whatever else we do this offseason, and I hope it's a lot, Greg Van Roten needs to go.

[56mehl56]

2 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

There’s qbs from good schools who have inherent talent advantages, like burrow, who have to adapt to the nfl on bad teams.  You either have the requisite skills or you don’t.  

Right, but Burrow faced strong competition in the SEC , there's maybe one of two NFL calibre players generally on teams BYU faced each week.  You may have skills but are you battle tested. 

[56mehl56]

1 hour ago, bitonti said:

Pitts feels like a casual 10 slot reach at 2 overall 

A dude has to be Vernon Davis to go top 5 as a te. 

He's value around mid rd1 maybe 11 to the giants 

You mention tyreek hill, Devonta is that dude with character. 

In general I hate the idea of first Rd Jets te it's failed too many times before 

But w/o the blazing speed Hill has. Everyone assumes Smith is a burner because he's razor thin , its just not the case. 

[56mehl56]

1 hour ago, nycdan said:

Interesting.  This is the first time in a long while that I've seen some support for the possibility that Darnold can be salvaged into a good QB.  I have felt this way all along.  I think the combination of crappy coaching, mediocre (at best) skill players, and sub-par protection has put him in a no-win situation.  Maybe 1 QB in 10 could still play well in that situation but I wouldn't bet on any rookie being that guy, not even Lawrence.  Taking a rookie who's never really seen pressure of any kind and dropping him into the same cauldron Darnold just spent three years in would not likely result in another Burrow/Herbert experience.  Just as likely it could go the other way.  Yes, even the impossibly talented Mr. Wilson could fail in that experiment.  

Sam isn't Mahomes and he never will be.  But he could be Favre if everything went more right than wrong for him and if we build a solid team around him, it could be a winning combination.  I'm not saying that's what I think JD should do, but I wouldn't label it wrong if he chose to.  I'd be open to seeing how it went for a season.  Maybe even excited.

I keep reading all the things Sam wasn't given to help him grow. I still haven't read what Sam himself needs to do to get better. Some guys just want it more than others ( Allen) I'm afraid Sam is simply relying on his athleticism and is into 100% - as a QB and supposed leader of the team that's a problem. 

[56mehl56]

45 minutes ago, Gangrene said:

Josh Allen is clearly a better football player but the the difference between Allen and Darnold is magnified by the O Line Josh Allen played behind plus the receivers he threw to , Stefon Diggs (ranked 4th), Cole Beasley (ranked 13th)

The Jets don't have a WR ranked in the top 25.

Bills ranked 10th in PFF O Line ranking

 

10. BUFFALO BILLS

The offensive line is just one example of how the Bills have done a tremendous job of building the right way around a young quarterback. They didn’t throw a lot of high-value resources at the offensive line, but they did take a fair amount of chances on players in free agency and continued to bring in guys who could contribute and eliminate areas of weakness.

A good example of that is right tackle Daryl Williams, who earned a 79.4 grade for Buffalo this season. Williams had a strong year at right tackle with the Panthers in 2017, but an injury-shortened 2018 campaign followed by a down year in 2019 across all four guard and tackle positions allowed the Bills to take a chance on Williams in free agency on just a one-year, $2.25 million contract. It’s safe to say that contract has paid off for Buffalo.

 

29. NEW YORK JETS

Overall it was a disappointing season for the offensive line in New York. They allowed pressure in 2.5 seconds or less on 28% of their dropbacks — the worst rate in the NFL. The line wasn’t creating many lanes in the run game, either. The Jets averaged just 1.1 yards per carry before contact per rushing attempt in 2020 (30th). Once again, they’ll have to look to add pieces to their offensive line this offseason.

But that's the cause or causation argument . Did the Jets not have better ranked WR's  because their QB sucked.  I admit we don't have a Diggs but Crowder is just as good as Cole Beasley. 

[Gangrene]

3 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

But that's the cause or causation argument . Did the Jets not have better ranked WR's  because their QB sucked.  I admit we don't have a Diggs but Crowder is just as good as Cole Beasley. 

I look to the difference in Josh Allen's 2019,  58.8% completion percentage versus his 2020,  69.2 % completion percentage. Did he simply understand football better/work harder in 2020 and dramatically leap ten percent in accuracy or did it have something to do with Stephon Diggs and the Bills O line?

That's the beautiful thing about football. there are so many variables, it takes a while for everyone to agree when a football player truly sucks.

 

 

[Sonny Werblin]

40 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Older Fans Aka the season ticket buyers

The Devonta prediction from Kiper tracks because they need a star, bad. Whoever that is, this team threatens no one on offense. Smith can score touchdowns right away or at least make defenses safety cover him while others get open. If they decide chase is better, fair enough. 

The Sewell idea tracks to build a Staley / mcglinchy duo for Saleh. Most good teams have 2 tackles. Whatever offense they had last year was left handed. It would be nice to maul in either direction. 

The qb at 2 pick tracks with people who have other people buy jerseys for them. It's not great value and it's overly hopeful to believe that player would do better than darnold, just because he's different. 

Agreed, but isn't Pitts an offensive threat? And do you know what else he is? A reliable threat in the red zone.  The Jets had by far the worst Red Zone percentage in the league at 42%. Heck the team ranked 16th was 60%. They are in desperate need a reliable receiving threat in the Red Zone.

[Sonny Werblin]

25 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

But w/o the blazing speed Hill has. Everyone assumes Smith is a burner because he's razor thin , its just not the case. 

Tutu Atwell is the speed demon in this draft. He might be faster than Hill, but he is also a tad smaller (height and weight) 

[Jetsfan80]

59 minutes ago, nycdan said:

This is not a recipe for good QB play.  No matter who the QB is.

The Chargers were # 32 on the list.  Didn't seem to impact their rookie QB a whole lot.

[UntouchableCrew]

3 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

How do you justify it? I'm totally baffled. Everyone knew Darnold's development was the most important thing to this organization. You wouldn't dream of not having an O line coach for Mechi Becton or a WR coach for Mims. It makes no sense whatsoever.  

Chris Johnson bet big on a fraud egomaniac. That's really all there is to it.

[56mehl56]

12 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Tutu Atwell is the speed demon in this draft. He might be faster than Hill, but he is also a tad smaller (height and weight) 

As is Smith's teammate Waddle. 

[bitonti]

26 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Agreed, but isn't Pitts an offensive threat? And do you know what else he is? A reliable threat in the red zone.  The Jets had by far the worst Red Zone percentage in the league at 42%. Heck the team ranked 16th was 60%. They are in desperate need a reliable receiving threat in the Red Zone.

Someone is going to get a player for sure but the Pitts market doesn't align with 2 or 23. If Devonta Smith scores 80 yard TDs then who needs the red zone? 

[kdels62]

3 hours ago, genot said:

Bingo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Bingo!!!!!!!!!!!!Bingo!!!!!!!!!!Darnold's way a head of the curve. He know's the speed of the game. I look at it as if Darnold is entering his 2nd year. The last two years we're a blank space, because of who the HC was. His system. His play calling. Darnold hasn't progressed, or regressed. He's just been in limbo

Lol. 9 TDs and 11 Ints indicates that he doesn’t get the speed of the game at all. 

[bitonti]

21 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Chris Johnson bet big on a fraud egomaniac. That's really all there is to it.

[rangerous]

idk.  maybe i didn't hear it but i don't think the football guy mentioned if the target was right for the play called.  it seems to me on a couple of those passes darnold made the right decision even if he threw a little late.  another point is i suspect darnold was still suffering from the effcts of the body slam in week 4.  we'll see what happens.  as others have said, the pro game is head and shoulders above the college game.

[56mehl56]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

The Chargers were # 32 on the list.  Didn't seem to impact their rookie QB a whole lot.

Shh - don't ruin the narrative . If Sam has a good Oline and Good weaponz and a good HC and its 67 degrees and sunny he may put up a career game of 1 TD 200 yards and no turnovers - because he's 23 and a good guy . 

[Greenbloodblitz]

Let me chime in and start with a few old sayings. Hindsight is always 20/20, and styles make fights.

I really wanted Gase and Darnold to work. Looking back I think the reason it didn't was Gase was forcing a square peg into a round hole. I truly believe that he saw a Darnold's Talent, he just didn't put him in a scheme that fit his strengths.

In the beginning he praised the QB for his ability to make really beautiful touch throws, off schedule plays, and wanted him to rely on his natural talent and make something happen when there was nothing there.

However he installed a system that was so precise and exact that it really required a big arm drop back quarterback? It just doesn't make any sense. Listen I love me some David Lee Roth but he's not an Opera singer. Lol! We're talking about two totally different animals.

You wouldn't put Vinny Testaverde in Greg Roman system that's made specifically for Lamar Jackson right?

That being said I do think Darnold can still be salvaged, but I'm iffy if it can be done here in New York.

The only major difference I see between Sam and Wilson is that Zach has a better deep ball and seems to have a stronger arm. He's also much more slight of frame which worries me.

Sam Darnold being a former linebacker I really thought would be much less injury-prone. You can't deny the kid has just had bad luck. Mono, injuries, the pandemic? He's got to have serious guts to come back from all that and make it work here.

Obviously the ultimate decision is up to JD, Robert Saleh Etc. I think they will do their due diligence and make the best decision for the team.

[Jetworks]

16 hours ago, 32EBoozer said:

You must be taking about Sammy....right? Lol

Did your going to my profile to find my last post just so you could reciprocate a downvote make your miserable day any better or did you also need to go to your safe space for a few minutes, too? 

[32EBoozer]

45 minutes ago, Jetworks said:

Did your going to my profile to find my last post just so you could reciprocate a downvote make your miserable day any better or did you also need to go to your safe space for a few minutes, too? 

No....I’m not familiar with you as a poster and wanted to see who I was dealing with. I usually give an explanation when I disagree with something someone posts. You did not and I was curious why you bothered when it was in jest to T0m Shane. I think I understand the type of person you are now.

[JohnnyLV]

3 hours ago, Greenbloodblitz said:

Let me chime in and start with a few old sayings. Hindsight is always 20/20, and styles make fights.

I really wanted Gase and Darnold to work. Looking back I think the reason it didn't was Gase was forcing a square peg into a round hole. I truly believe that he saw a Darnold's Talent, he just didn't put him in a scheme that fit his strengths.

In the beginning he praised the QB for his ability to make really beautiful touch throws, off schedule plays, and wanted him to rely on his natural talent and make something happen when there was nothing there.

However he installed a system that was so precise and exact that it really required a big arm drop back quarterback? It just doesn't make any sense. Listen I love me some David Lee Roth but he's not an Opera singer. Lol! We're talking about two totally different animals.

You wouldn't put Vinny Testaverde in Greg Roman system that's made specifically for Lamar Jackson right?

That being said I do think Darnold can still be salvaged, but I'm iffy if it can be done here in New York.

The only major difference I see between Sam and Wilson is that Zach has a better deep ball and seems to have a stronger arm. He's also much more slight of frame which worries me.

Sam Darnold being a former linebacker I really thought would be much less injury-prone. You can't deny the kid has just had bad luck. Mono, injuries, the pandemic? He's got to have serious guts to come back from all that and make it work here.

Obviously the ultimate decision is up to JD, Robert Saleh Etc. I think they will do their due diligence and make the best decision for the team.

Wilson has a WAY bigger arm, and is WAY more accurate. And a MUCH better deep ball. He is also not as small as people think.

[BCJet]

8 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

Right, but Burrow faced strong competition in the SEC , there's maybe one of two NFL calibre players generally on teams BYU faced each week.  You may have skills but are you battle tested. 

Here is the cutup from Wilson vs Coastal Carolina, a ranked team and very good college defense.  Im not sure how you cant come away impressed with his performance in this game.  

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=yhs-iba-syn&hsimp=yhs-syn&hspart=iba&p=zach+wilson+vs+coastal+carolina#id=1&vid=bf8676dbe76b7139da88724e8aafad26&action=click

[football guy]

19 hours ago, TokyoJetsFan said:

Maybe we should ask Darnold not to go to Jordan Palmers summer camp this year. Certainly not helping him.

I don't think it's Jordan. From what I heard is the old coaching staff was unwilling to even work with Jordan and wouldn't take his advice. 

[football guy]

Watched this when it first came out. It's an extremely fair evaluation and literally describes the Darnold-Gase experience in a nutshell. 

Gase knows how to design plays that would work wonders in a simulated environment. If you have a QB who knows exactly how the defense is going to react, it's deadly because they're is always going to be an open receiver on every play. But for an inexperienced QB like Darnold, it makes him think too much. Still, we've seen him identify coverage, progress through his reads, feel pressure/escape from the pocket, and make some really wickedly good (or bad) throws. The problem: Gase taught him the cerebral side of the game and emphasized the significance of play design and how to beat certain coverages; he did not stress the importance of mechanics and did not calm Sam's overthinking. Which is why we got what we got. But when Sam can just rely on his instincts and play backyard football... sheesh. He can do things that 2/3 the league's QBs cannot do. 

[Adoni Beast]

50 minutes ago, football guy said:But when Sam can just rely on his instincts and play backyard football... sheesh. He can do things that 2/3 the league's QBs cannot do.