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Trade Down.... But for Trey Lance


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6 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

I hear you.  But I'm saying that if theyre still high on him, keep him.  No one at QB after Lawrence is a sure fire pick IMO, why I'm going more to the trade down, grab Lance and let him develop.  If possible.

I dont see what the draftees can do that Darnold cant do.  

So if I'm understanding you, your preference is to retain and start Sam, draft Lance and let him sit behind Sam.

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I know there are no guarantees but if we could get the Lions to trade their 7th, and 21st along with other draft picks, for # 2, I would strongly consider doing it and drafting Trey Lance. The key is

I like this as well.   A trade down will give us a lot of options but a trade down and get a QB prospect even if he needs seasoning is a decent idea. Heck for all we know a trade down and Fields

The idea of drafting a one-year starter at 2 is terrifying, but Josh Allen is going to finish second in MVP voting, so who ******* knows who's good anymore

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2 minutes ago, Warfish said:

So if I'm understanding you, your preference is to retain and start Sam, draft Lance and let him sit behind Sam.

I've to tell you buddy, I'm like a crazed fan, going back and forth depending on the time of day.  Wilson.  Fields.  Sam.  just keep changing.  I guess to me, Fields, Wilson and Sam have so many questions in their games its making my head spin.

The preference keeps changing which is why I guess I'm fine whichever way the FO decides to go

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46 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Just to help this along because its turned into nonsense and youre not making a point, Sanchez was drafted 3 years before Luck.  Gabbert the year before Luck, have no idea what youre trying to say about those two being the best since Luck.  

 

I posted a source which you didn't read.  It's McShay QB prospect ranking.  There are 3 QB's on his list as better prospects than Sam drafted after Luck and before Darnold.  RG 3, Tannehill and Winston.  He actually had Sam and Tannehill as tied as a prospect coming out. RG3 and Winston ahead of both of them.

Just pointing out that McShay also had prospects like Sanchez and Gabbert who were complete busts rated as better than Sam coming out.  Sorry I didn't clarify that you were simply wrong in your very specific contention that Sam was McShay's highest rated QB prospect since Luck.  He wasn't.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2018/story/_/id/23115321/todd-mcshay-nfl-draft-grades-every-first-round-qb-2008-plus-2018-top-qbs

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4 minutes ago, Biggs said:

I posted a source which you didn't read.  It's McShay QB prospect ranking.  There are 3 QB's on his list as better prospects than Sam drafted after Luck and before Darnold.  RG 3, Tannehill and Winston.  

Just pointing out that McShay also had prospects like Sanchez and Gabbert who were complete busts rated as better than Sam coming out.  Sorry I didn't clarify that you were simply wrong in your very specific contention that Sam was McShay's highest rated QB prospect since Luck.  He wasn't.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2018/story/_/id/23115321/todd-mcshay-nfl-draft-grades-every-first-round-qb-2008-plus-2018-top-qbs

Point taken, but he had Tannehill rated the same, but you left off WInston.   If he really had Sanchez ahead of Stafford, he'd be the only one I ever heard of with that ranking. 

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Just now, Biggs said:

I posted a source which you didn't read.  It's McShay QB prospect ranking.  There are 3 QB's on his list as better prospects than Sam drafted after Luck and before Darnold.  RG 3, Tannehill and Winston.  

Just pointing out that McShay also had prospects like Sanchez and Gabbert who were complete busts rated as better than Sam coming out.  Sorry I didn't clarify that you were simply wrong in your very specific contention that Sam was McShay's highest rated QB prospect since Luck.  He wasn't.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2018/story/_/id/23115321/todd-mcshay-nfl-draft-grades-every-first-round-qb-2008-plus-2018-top-qbs

One last time, he ranked QBs before their drafts.   And before Luck.  Youre arguing that Darnold wasnt the highest rated after Luck or that his rankings that he put out this year are wrong. 

Take a rest, youre arguing just to argue.  Tannehill is not above Darnold

McShay has said over and over again that Luck was a 99, Lawrence a 97, Darnold a 95.

You can go back and watch the Clemson OSU game 

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3 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Point taken, but he had Tannehill rated the same, but you left off WInston.   If he really had Sanchez ahead of Stafford, he'd be the only one I ever heard of with that ranking. 

McShay is a talking head I didn't bring him up Jet nut did.  That's why I looked up what how he ranked them.  Sanchez was considered right up there with Stafford at the time.  The USC hype machine was in full force at that time.  

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8 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

One last time, he ranked QBs before their drafts.   And before Luck.  Youre arguing that Darnold wasnt the highest rated after Luck or that his rankings that he put out this year are wrong. 

Take a rest, youre arguing just to argue.  Tannehill is not above Darnold

McShay has said over and over again that Luck was a 99, Lawrence a 97, Darnold a 95.

You can go back and watch the Clemson OSU game 

I posted Todd McShay's prospect ratings.  This is what Todd McShay said before he posted the ratings:


Below are my grades and excerpts from my scouting reports for every first-round QB over the last decade, along with the grades for the top five guys -- Darnold, Allen, Josh Rosen, Mayfield and Lamar Jackson -- in this class. These are in order of highest grade (Andrew Luck) to lowest (EJ Manuel).

Winston and RG3 were drafted after Luck and before Darnold.   The fact that Mayfield went ahead of Darnold with a grade of 90 would have given me pause to bring up McShay but you did.  Just pointing out that McShay doesn't come down where you said he does as if that matters at all.

Just as an aside, who are you to tell me to take a rest?   It's a disagreement on a message board.  I'm not one of your kids or your wife.   Hope we can continue to have good lively discussions without getting at each others throat.  You're good with me and I hope I'm good with you?  If so let's keep it that way.  

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1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

I've to tell you buddy, I'm like a crazed fan, going back and forth depending on the time of day.  Wilson.  Fields.  Sam.  just keep changing.  I guess to me, Fields, Wilson and Sam have so many questions in their games its making my head spin.

The preference keeps changing which is why I guess I'm fine whichever way the FO decides to go

Aye, thats certainly fair enough.  Don't ask me what the 'right' choice is, I admittedly have no earthly idea at this stage.

I'd like to move on from Sam, but I'm not wedded to it.

I like Fields, but not enough to feel passionate about him at #2 in any real way.

I get a really bad vibe from Wilson, but have no basis in fact (beyond his small school and weak first two seasons) for it.

I still like Kyle Trask, but I almost always like a mid-rounder QB option every year, he's likely a #2, not a #1.

I think Lawrence is very overrated, and won't live up to the hype,

I don't really know enough about Lance or Jones, frankly. 

Who knows.  

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1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Aye, thats certainly fair enough.  Don't ask me what the 'right' choice is, I admittedly have no earthly idea at this stage.

I'd like to move on from Sam, but I'm not wedded to it.

I like Fields, but not enough to feel passionate about him at #2 in any real way.

I get a really bad vibe from Wilson, but have no basis in fact (beyond his small school and weak first two seasons) for it.

I still like Kyle Trask, but I almost always like a mid-rounder QB option every year, he's likely a #2, not a #1.

I think Lawrence is very overrated, and won't live up to the hype,

I don't really know enough about Lance or Jones, frankly. 

Who knows.  

Pretty much the same here. 

But @Jet Nut I dislike the idea of drafting a QB in the top 10 and turn down [a high 2nd or late 1st or 2022 1st or whatever high pick] to give Darnold a 4th tryout season. If he’s getting a 4th tryout season, imo use that #2 overall pick to build around him, and if/when he flops again the team will be hopefully 2 good young starters better for the next year’s rookie or veteran QB.

If a seatwarmer is what’s desired, for a more raw QB to be able to sit for a while, then get a veteran like Beathard. If the team stinks out of the gate, behind poor QB play, the fans won’t be calling for the rookie any faster or slower with someone like him than with Darnold.

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13 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

If a seatwarmer is what’s desired, for a more raw QB to be able to sit for a while, then get a veteran like Beathard. If the team stinks out of the gate, behind poor QB play, the fans won’t be calling for the rookie any faster or slower with someone like him than with Darnold.

The fact that we are discussing this scenario sickens me. 

Rinse wash repeat over and over with the QB position here. 

Nick Mullens should receive consideration if  we are going the free agent route. 

Young enough to grow with this rebuilding team. 

 

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2 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

The fact that we are discussing this scenario sickens me. 

Rinse wash repeat over and over with the QB position here. 

Nick Mullens should receive consideration if  we are going the free agent route. 

Young enough to grow with this rebuilding team. 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

The fact that we are discussing this scenario sickens me. 

Rinse wash repeat over and over with the QB position here. 

Nick Mullens should receive consideration if  we are going the free agent route. 

Young enough to grow with this rebuilding team. 

 

Mullens, Beathard, whatever. Neither is likely anything more than a seatwarmer. Both are plenty young enough if panning out, and are adequate enough for system introduction so we aren’t trotting out another Luke Falk or something. 

How old are you that you think 27 isn’t young enough to build around? Sounds like something one of our resident kiddies would say because they think testes start to drop on one’s 30th birthday: 27 is almost 29, and 29 is almost 30, and 30 = retirement age.  

If not for the curse that accompanies him, I could have listed Fitzpatrick as well. 

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6 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Mullens, Beathard, whatever. Neither is likely anything more than a seatwarmer. Both are plenty young enough if panning out, and are adequate enough for system introduction so we aren’t trotting out another Luke Falk or something. 

How old are you that you think 27 isn’t young enough to build around? Sounds like something one of our resident kiddies would say because they think testes start to drop on one’s 30th birthday: 27 is almost 29, and 29 is almost 30, and 30 = retirement age.  

If not for the curse that accompanies him, I could have listed Fitzpatrick as well. 

Im older than dirt, 27 is young enough to build around a QB look at Brady he's 42. 

My fear is we stick with Sam Darnold and get 2020 Sam Darnold again. 

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4 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Pretty much the same here. 

But @Jet Nut I dislike the idea of drafting a QB in the top 10 and turn down [a high 2nd or late 1st or 2022 1st or whatever high pick] to give Darnold a 4th tryout season. If he’s getting a 4th tryout season, imo use that #2 overall pick to build around him, and if/when he flops again the team will be hopefully 2 good young starters better for the next year’s rookie or veteran QB.

If a seatwarmer is what’s desired, for a more raw QB to be able to sit for a while, then get a veteran like Beathard. If the team stinks out of the gate, behind poor QB play, the fans won’t be calling for the rookie any faster or slower with someone like him than with Darnold.

Not opposed to this.  Just saying if they don’t believe 100% in a QB being worth the 2nd overall, maybe one a bit later, with whatever comes back to trade down is worth the risk.  If we have 3 1’s it’s not ask risky.  If Sam plays well I’m pretty sure you could get picks back for that QB.  

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5 hours ago, joewilly12 said:

Im older than dirt, 27 is young enough to build around a QB look at Brady he's 42. 

My fear is we stick with Sam Darnold and get 2020 Sam Darnold again. 

You won’t if you build an actual roster

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5 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Not opposed to this.  Just saying if they don’t believe 100% in a QB being worth the 2nd overall, maybe one a bit later, with whatever comes back to trade down is worth the risk.  If we have 3 1’s it’s not ask risky.  If Sam plays well I’m pretty sure you could get picks back for that QB.  

I could get behind it maybe in the event all these ideas of even a round 2 pick for Darnold never materialize. Maybe whichever team(s) have already loosely floated that-level interest decide to go in another direction, and if the best offer is a late 3rd round pick, or an unknown 3rd round pick in 2022.

I still think he looks like some of his issues are either not fixable or they’d take more than just an upcoming 4th evaluation season to correct. The disappointment is he wasn’t drafted to be the type who’d need 5+ years before he starts showing why he was considered, for well over a year, that he was the foregone conclusion #1 overall pick (before unexpectedly plummeting to merely the 3rd pick). He’s a big project, and you don’t draft such a multi-year, fingers-crossed project at #3 (or even #43). That’s done, but for me the top offer would have to be pretty low to warrant just keeping him. 

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7 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Not opposed to this.  Just saying if they don’t believe 100% in a QB being worth the 2nd overall, maybe one a bit later, with whatever comes back to trade down is worth the risk.  If we have 3 1’s it’s not ask risky.  If Sam plays well I’m pretty sure you could get picks back for that QB.  

I have no concerns about losing some draft value if Darnold plays well enough to go with him instead of a 2021 high pick, and in effect trade a top 10 pick in 2021 for whatever he yields in trade in 2022. FFS it’s still way cheaper than I’d be willing to part with for Watson. I just don’t think it’ll happen. 

Put a certain trade value on Darnold, whatever it is. Say it’s pick #40 just to put a number on it. Maybe it’s higher, maybe it’s lower, but figure it’s somewhere between the late 20s and the 60s. The reason someone else might make that trade for him is not for hedging a high draft pick; it’s becasue they don’t have a high draft pick to roll the dice on in the first place. 

If we use a high pick on a QB, trade Darnold. If all we can get is a 4th rounder for him, despite all the lofty talk of 2nd and 1st round picks, then yeah fine keep him for another season.

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15 hours ago, Biggs said:

I posted a source which you didn't read.  It's McShay QB prospect ranking.  There are 3 QB's on his list as better prospects than Sam drafted after Luck and before Darnold.  RG 3, Tannehill and Winston.  He actually had Sam and Tannehill as tied as a prospect coming out. RG3 and Winston ahead of both of them.

Just pointing out that McShay also had prospects like Sanchez and Gabbert who were complete busts rated as better than Sam coming out.  Sorry I didn't clarify that you were simply wrong in your very specific contention that Sam was McShay's highest rated QB prospect since Luck.  He wasn't.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2018/story/_/id/23115321/todd-mcshay-nfl-draft-grades-every-first-round-qb-2008-plus-2018-top-qbs

Okay.  I think that’s true and luck certainly put up some good numbers. But McShay also had mahommes, Watson, Allen, Trubisky listed way lower than darnold.  So much for talking head QBs evaluation.

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14 hours ago, Warfish said:

Aye, thats certainly fair enough.  Don't ask me what the 'right' choice is, I admittedly have no earthly idea at this stage.

I'd like to move on from Sam, but I'm not wedded to it.

I like Fields, but not enough to feel passionate about him at #2 in any real way.

I get a really bad vibe from Wilson, but have no basis in fact (beyond his small school and weak first two seasons) for it.

I still like Kyle Trask, but I almost always like a mid-rounder QB option every year, he's likely a #2, not a #1.

I think Lawrence is very overrated, and won't live up to the hype,

I don't really know enough about Lance or Jones, frankly. 

Who knows.  

I have Faith in the front office that they'll make the right decision. My opinion is to stick with Sammy and build around him. He was our FQB once upon a time. Just because the Jets were a bunch of incompetent idiots that neglected Sammy is no reason IMO to abandon him? He's still the same kid we drafted in 2018, only with 3 years of starting experience and an excellent attitude to be able to endure the last 3 seasons.

But at the end of the day, Joe Douglas and Robert Saleh are paid professionals.

I'll trust in their know-how and hope for the best.

Honestly, I think (and I'm sure Douglas and Saleh feel the same) that trading for Deshaun Watson is the BEST option depending on the price that GUARANTEES the Jets the best QB possible in a QB driven league.

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3 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I could get behind it maybe in the event all these ideas of even a round 2 pick for Darnold never materialize. Maybe whichever team(s) have already loosely floated that-level interest decide to go in another direction, and if the best offer is a late 3rd round pick, or an unknown 3rd round pick in 2022.

I still think he looks like some of his issues are either not fixable or they’d take more than just an upcoming 4th evaluation season to correct. The disappointment is he wasn’t drafted to be the type who’d need 5+ years before he starts showing why he was considered, for well over a year, that he was the foregone conclusion #1 overall pick (before unexpectedly plummeting to merely the 3rd pick). He’s a big project, and you don’t draft such a multi-year, fingers-crossed project at #3 (or even #43). That’s done, but for me the top offer would have to be pretty low to warrant just keeping him. 

I think for Sam its not just the concern that he cant be fixed, its the upcoming 5th year option that has to be factored into the ultimate decision on whether to move forward with Sam or to move on.  

$28.5 mil over the next two years to sign up for Sam is a hefty price for a question mark at a position of that importance.   

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8 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

I think for Sam its not just the concern that he cant be fixed, its the upcoming 5th year option that has to be factored into the ultimate decision on whether to move forward with Sam or to move on.  

$28.5 mil over the next two years to sign up for Sam is a hefty price for a question mark at a position of that importance.   

So is giving up on a guy that later on turns out to be a franchise QB. The 49ers traded a 2nd round pick and signed Jimmy Garappolo for 25 million a year when he'd played maybe 4 games as a starter. 

So is drafting a QB at 2, which is a total crapshoot, and trading away a kid who turns out to be a FQB in another city.

 

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7 minutes ago, NYJ1 said:

So is giving up on a guy that later on turns out to be a franchise QB. The 49ers traded a 2nd round pick and signed Jimmy Garappolo for 25 million a year when he'd played maybe 4 games as a starter. 

So is drafting a QB at 2, which is a total crapshoot, and trading away a kid who turns out to be a FQB in another city.

 

I just posted what that the financial commitment is part of the equation.  As it should be.  

Jimmy G was paid, overpaid most would say, way too early.  But still he had shown more than Sam has at this point. At least Jimmy had a crazy good winning percentage and his flaws weren't exposed.  

Jimmy G kind of proves the point, the financial commitment for a unproven QB has to be well thought out. Thanks.😎

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40 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

I think for Sam its not just the concern that he cant be fixed, its the upcoming 5th year option that has to be factored into the ultimate decision on whether to move forward with Sam or to move on.  

$28.5 mil over the next two years to sign up for Sam is a hefty price for a question mark at a position of that importance.   

Totally. I still wouldn’t do the 5th yr option. But of course I wouldn’t keep him this year in the first place & would rather opt for a clean break, using the significant pick we’d get for him to add a longer-term building block than Sam’s 4th season-long tryout. 

And honestly, it’s not fair to the rest of the roster (nor all the coaches) that all their efforts and all their risk of bodily harm don’t add up to the ball-cupping needs of Sam Darnold requiring a 4th straight tryout. I’m sure they all know the QB position is of unique importance, and teams are almost always operating under the goal of putting the QB in a position to win the game for them, but that has limits. I’m sure it’s demoralizing over the course of a long season, especially for the guys who were here the year(s) before this.

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1 hour ago, NYJ1 said:

I have Faith in the front office that they'll make the right decision.

You're certainly entitled to that opinion, but Douglas hasn't exactly earned faith or trust as yet.  His moves to-date have been very much a mixed-bag.

1 hour ago, NYJ1 said:

My opinion is to stick with Sammy and build around him. He was our FQB once upon a time.

He was projected to be a FQB coming out, sure.  He's not actually been a FQB at all during his Pro career.  What he has been is the worst starting QB in the NFL over the past three years, when taken as a whole.  i.e. he's a bust so far.

Most bust QB's don't get a third chance under a third regime without being a backup somewhere else first.

1 hour ago, NYJ1 said:

Just because the Jets were a bunch of incompetent idiots that neglected Sammy is no reason IMO to abandon him? He's still the same kid we drafted in 2018, only with 3 years of starting experience and an excellent attitude to be able to endure the last 3 seasons.

Gase was a nightmare hire, I don't disagree.  It's the only reason I won't be actively disappointed if the decision is to retain Sam for 2021.

1 hour ago, NYJ1 said:

But at the end of the day, Joe Douglas and Robert Saleh are paid professionals.

I'll trust in their know-how and hope for the best.

Honestly, I think (and I'm sure Douglas and Saleh feel the same) that trading for Deshaun Watson is the BEST option depending on the price that GUARANTEES the Jets the best QB possible in a QB driven league.

Aye, Watson is unquestionably the best option available, but too many unknowns, interest by Texas, price to be paid, Watson interest, etc.  

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I hear you.  But I'm saying that if theyre still high on him, keep him.  No one at QB after Lawrence is a sure fire pick IMO, why I'm going more to the trade down, grab Lance and let him develop.  If possible.
I dont see what the draftees can do that Darnold cant do.  
Trevor Lawrence
Wide Gap
Wilson
Gap (Darnold)
Fields/Lance

... I have spoken

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using JetNation.com mobile app



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2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Totally. I still wouldn’t do the 5th yr option. But of course I wouldn’t keep him this year in the first place & would rather opt for a clean break, using the significant pick we’d get for him to add a longer-term building block than Sam’s 4th season-long tryout. 

And honestly, it’s not fair to the rest of the roster (nor all the coaches) that all their efforts and all their risk of bodily harm don’t add up to the ball-cupping needs of Sam Darnold requiring a 4th straight tryout. I’m sure they all know the QB position is of unique importance, and teams are almost always operating under the goal of putting the QB in a position to win the game for them, but that has limits. I’m sure it’s demoralizing over the course of a long season, especially for the guys who were here the year(s) before this.

Im more inclined to think that the FO agrees with us Sperm.  I know they havent said a word but if youre saying, as the are, that a decision on the QB wont be made now, how solidly behind the QB are you?  Youre just window shopping doesnt seem right.  If youre waiting to see that Fields, Wilson or Lance are options then youre not sold on who you have. I dont think the Chiefs or the Chargers would answer the same way

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1 hour ago, Dunnie said:

Trevor Lawrence
Wide Gap
Wilson
Gap (Darnold)
Fields/Lance

... I have spoken

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using JetNation.com mobile app


 

Not so sure.  After Lawrence I can make a case for any of the next three.  And make a case against any one of the three

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