Jump to content

Perriman and Mims don't talk about fight club.. if fight club is Sam Darnold.


pointman
 Share

Recommended Posts

34 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

Interesting.

I give the kid a ton of sh*t because of his opponents, the great protection he had, the one year wonder element, the shoulder surgeries and, of course, the Mormon thing. 

But I've got to say, I watched this recently. This was his 'bad' game, and I actually was expecting a lot worse. There's still a lot to respect here:

Still wary of him, as I am of Fields. Still think the rest of our team needs improvement before we can expect any young quarterback to develop, but I do understand why both are worthy of high selections.

To my eyes, BYU had no business being a 9-0 team other than Zach Wilson.  He elevated everyone else around him in this game.  I didn't see anything special about those receivers of his, or the RB or OL, it looks like a very average team that Wilson himself elevated to 9-0.  I love his release and he's definitely bigger than Baker Mayfield size-wise to me so I don't see it as a huge issue.  He seems to have some of the intangibles that Darnold lacks.

If I'm the Jets, unless the Texans are willing to trade Watson to us, they simply have to draft Wilson #2 overall and then hopefully have 3 other picks in the top 34 after the Sam trade to get Wilson some weapons and protection (including Allen Robinson.)

  • WTF? 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, jetscrazey said:

To my eyes, BYU had no business being a 9-0 team other than Zach Wilson.  He elevated everyone else around him in this game.  I didn't see anything special about those receivers of his, or the RB or OL, it looks like a very average team that Wilson himself elevated to 9-0.  I love his release and he's definitely bigger than Baker Mayfield size-wise to me so I don't see it as a huge issue.  If I'm the Jets, unless the Texans are willing to trade Watson to us, they simply have to draft Wilson #2 overall and then hopefully have 3 other picks in the top 34 after the Sam trade to get Wilson some weapons and protection (including Allen Robinson.)

So no concerns for you that he played a bunch of nobody puffballs, for the most part.  

  • Upvote 1
  • Sympathy 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Warfish said:

So no concerns for you that he played a bunch of nobody puffballs, for the most part.  

His offense was largely nobody puffballs too.  He passed the eye test to me vs a top 25 team in Coastal Carolina.  His receivers dropped a lot of balls and his protection stunk a lot of the time.  He still made some very impressive plays, he was the whole offense basically and came within a yard of winning. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I keep watching Zach WIlson highlights and thinking that I am not seeing all this arm talent.  He has an interesting release, but his balls to the sidelines seem to take a long time to get there.  I could be wrong, but I am not impressed.  I had similar feelings about Darnold, and kept hearing "he can make all the throws,"  Big ******* deal.  I want a guy with a ******* cannon.  I'm not fully against Wilson, but certainly not thrilled with the idea.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, jetscrazey said:

To my eyes, BYU had no business being a 9-0 team other than Zach Wilson.  He elevated everyone else around him in this game.  I didn't see anything special about those receivers of his, or the RB or OL, it looks like a very average team that Wilson himself elevated to 9-0.  I love his release and he's definitely bigger than Baker Mayfield size-wise to me so I don't see it as a huge issue.  He seems to have some of the intangibles that Darnold lacks.

If I'm the Jets, unless the Texans are willing to trade Watson to us, they simply have to draft Wilson #2 overall and then hopefully have 3 other picks in the top 34 after the Sam trade to get Wilson some weapons and protection (including Allen Robinson.)

I haven't seen all of their games, but his offensive line must have been solid, because nearly every video I see, he's got good protection. Even the game I posted, his 'bad' game where he was under pressure, I mean, it was nothing close to the type of pressure/hits your standard Jets quarterback will take on Sundays.

Also, I think the BYU left tackle, Christensen, had the highest grade in pass protection of any tackle in college football last year from PFF... so he's got that going for him... which is nice (Caddyshack ftw).

But yea, I think his skill position players were nothing special and I absolutely respect his arm talent/anticipation. 

The elephant in the room is the competition he faced and the two shoulder surgeries on his throwing arm. I can't speak intelligently enough on whether either of those things really matter, but I can understand the concern from the outside. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I keep watching Zach WIlson highlights and thinking that I am not seeing all this arm talent.  He has an interesting release, but his balls to the sidelines seem to take a long time to get there.  I could be wrong, but I am not impressed.  I had similar feelings about Darnold, and kept hearing "he can make all the throws,"  Big ******* deal.  I want a guy with a ******* cannon.  I'm not fully against Wilson, but certainly not thrilled with the idea.

Darnold has the measurable stuff, good size, good release point, can make all the throws including on the run.

it’s the immeasurables, the mental side of it, the ability to win a chess match with the defense, where Sam has failed.  He just hasn’t been able to grab by the horns and conquer.

Wilson may be a bust too but we shouldn’t let Sam’s failure cloud our judgement.  I think the fact that Wilson pretty much singlehandedly elevated BYU to a 9-1 record or whatever it was suggests that Wilson probably will be more effective with the intangibles than Sam. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, jetscrazey said:

To my eyes, BYU had no business being a 9-0 team other than Zach Wilson.  He elevated everyone else around him in this game.  I didn't see anything special about those receivers of his, or the RB or OL, it looks like a very average team that Wilson himself elevated to 9-0.  I love his release and he's definitely bigger than Baker Mayfield size-wise to me so I don't see it as a huge issue.  He seems to have some of the intangibles that Darnold lacks.

If I'm the Jets, unless the Texans are willing to trade Watson to us, they simply have to draft Wilson #2 overall and then hopefully have 3 other picks in the top 34 after the Sam trade to get Wilson some weapons and protection (including Allen Robinson.)

I think Wilson is a big risk.  But if the Jets keep Watsons cap space, keep the rest of the draft picks and trade darnold for something, and get some type of bridge QB for next year, I actually think Wilson could be worth the risk.  The Jets could always do a Tampa Bay and sign a veteran QB for a good roster.  I would rather take the chance on Wilson than keep Darnold or draft Sewell, Smith or Fields.

But the best option is to make a reasonable trade for Watson, but I don't think the Texans can trade Watson away and have anyone think it is reasonable.  People seem to think Stafford was fair for both sides.  I think Detroit did much better. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, varjet said:

I think Wilson is a big risk.  But if the Jets keep Watsons cap space, keep the rest of the draft picks and trade darnold for something, and get some type of bridge QB for next year, I actually think Wilson could be worth the risk.  The Jets could always do a Tampa Bay and sign a veteran QB for a good roster.  I would rather take the chance on Wilson than keep Darnold or draft Sewell, Smith or Fields.

But the best option is to make a reasonable trade for Watson, but I don't think the Texans can trade Watson away and have anyone think it is reasonable.  People seem to think Stafford was fair for both sides.  I think Detroit did much better. 

Agreed. Seems like they got two extra picks to take on Goff's contract. That contract is terrible but they can walk away from him in a year if he plays bad this season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Maxman said:

Agreed. Seems like they got two extra picks to take on Goff's contract. That contract is terrible but they can walk away from him in a year if he plays bad this season.

At least for next year I changed my mind.  Unless someone trades a 1 or 2 for Darnold, keep him.  Have him compete/bridge Wilson, like Smith did for Mahomes, for $4.7mm.  They are not signing another QB cheaper.  

If a 1 or 2 for Darnold, roll with Morgan and someone else.  Not Flacco for WCO.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Prodigal Syndicate said:

JN turns quick. Perriman went from a brilliant, savvy signing who was secretly a great player and better than robbie Anderson to a scrub JAG bust.

 

Funny thing is, he indeed looked like a lot better player with Flacco than darnold and so did mims.

Perriman was a moronic signing over Anderson. People said otherwise becuase they wanted to believe in Douglas so badly they became quick apologists for him. The best one could say about the signing is he was the best consolation prize, and at least was an interesting signing given his last handful of games in Tampa. I’m not upset over losing Anderson - there are other/better WRs to be had - so much as I’m upset at knowing this was the Jets’ GM exercising what he felt was good judgment to help his young QB show his stuff. 

I really do think Douglas will get a lot better. More likely he did what a lot of first time GMs do: he went against the grain to show he’s smarter than everyone. Well it turns out he isn’t. His best player acquisition to date by far - Becton - was a pick he couldn’t possibly have messed up, seeing how his offseason meant he was taking an OT in round 1 and his only choice was between two prospects who both had excellent rookie seasons. 

He made a successful, gutsy trade down in the draft & still got a good WR prospect he may have wanted at our original slot anyway. Unfortunately so far that trade down was only good on paper, seeing how the extra pick he got ultimately netted Morgan and Clark, neither of whom were good enough to make the gameday roster one time between them, on a team with weak QBs and a weak OL, picking up trash heap midseason FAs to instantly & effortlessly leapfrog both. 

The trade for Adams was awesome, but really it was more Seattle coming to him with a preposterous offer (I suppose credit him for taking it, but really who’d turn it down?). A little like Maccagnan getting a future 2nd for Richardson when we were desperate & stuck with him. Hopefully those picks net good starters for years to come, if they aren’t used to acquire Watson.

  • Upvote 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, pointman said:

He also talked about having to adjust to Flacco because the velocity of his passes.

This bothered me more than it probably should, since I’ve seen enough busts with fastballs to know that’s not what makes a QB elite. Rodgers has a rocket arm, but if he didn’t have the intangibles he does possess, then he could be Jamarcus Russell, who could throw a football through a wall himself. 

So I can handle Darnold not having as hard of a fastball as Flacco, but if his WRs find his passes so noticeably weaker than Flacco’s then this should be countered with excellent accuracy, judgment, pocket presence, etc. 

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, jetscrazey said:

Darnold has the measurable stuff, good size, good release point, can make all the throws including on the run.

it’s the immeasurables, the mental side of it, the ability to win a chess match with the defense, where Sam has failed.  He just hasn’t been able to grab by the horns and conquer.

Wilson may be a bust too but we shouldn’t let Sam’s failure cloud our judgement.  I think the fact that Wilson pretty much singlehandedly elevated BYU to a 9-1 record or whatever it was suggests that Wilson probably will be more effective with the intangibles than Sam. 

 I'm not sure you understand what I am saying.  I'm not making this grand comparison of Darnold and WIlson.  I am telling you that "can make all the throws" doesn't mean sh*t.  I honestly think it is code for mediocre arm. I want a cannon.  That is why I kind of prefer Lance and Fields.  They seem to have bigger arms.  Considering the system these guys want to run, I'm not sure that matters, but for me I would rather have that and have to scheme around a guy's weaknesses.   You can do something with guys that physically gifted and if they turn into something more, great.

I'm not too sure of fit for this system.  win4ever seems to think those guys would be good fits, but my outdated thinking feels Wilson slots there better.  They all can run at least a little bit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Perriman was a moronic signing over Anderson. People said otherwise becuase they wanted to believe in Douglas so badly they became quick apologists for him. The best one could say about the signing is he was the best consolation prize, and at least was an interesting signing given his last handful of games in Tampa. I’m not upset over losing Anderson - there are other/better WRs to be had - so much as I’m upset at knowing this was the Jets’ GM exercising what he felt was good judgment to help his young QB show his stuff. 

I really do think Douglas will get a lot better. More likely he did what a lot of first time GMs do: he went against the grain to show he’s smarter than everyone. Well it turns out he isn’t. His best player acquisition to date by far - Becton - was a pick he couldn’t possibly have messed up, seeing how his offseason meant he was taking an OT in round 1 and his only choice was between two prospects who both had excellent rookie seasons. 

He made a successful, gutsy trade down in the draft & still got a good WR prospect he may have wanted at our original slot anyway. Unfortunately so far that trade down was only good on paper, seeing how the extra pick he got ultimately netted Morgan and Clark, neither of whom were good enough to make the gameday roster one time between them, on a team with weak QBs and a weak OL, picking up trash heap midseason FAs to instantly & effortlessly leapfrog both. 

The trade for Adams was awesome, but really it was more Seattle coming to him with a preposterous offer (I suppose credit him for taking it, but really who’d turn it down?). A little like Maccagnan getting a future 2nd for Richardson when we were desperate & stuck with him. Hopefully those picks net good starters for years to come, if they aren’t used to acquire Watson.

Anderson was a career ~700 yards & 6 TD's a year guy.  Perriman had 645 yards and 6 TD's in 2019.   

It wasn't a huge stretch to postulate that Perriman would replace Anderson's typical performance.

And he would have had he not missed a big chunk of the season.  He had 500 yards in 12 games w/ 3 TD's.

Had he been healthy (he wasn't), in a normal year (it wasn't) with camp and preseason and time to get settled into the O before week 1, I have no doubt he would have fully replaced Anderson's typical 700 yards, 6 TD's level of production.

No one painted Perriman as an All-Pro.  People like me painted him as an adequate replacement of production for Anderson, nothing more.  

  • Sympathy 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Anderson was a career ~700 yards & 6 TD's a year guy.  Perriman had 645 yards and 6 TD's in 2019.   

It wasn't a huge stretch to postulate that Perriman would replace Anderson's typical performance.

And he would have had he not missed a big chunk of the season.  He had 500 yards in 12 games w/ 3 TD's.

Had he been healthy (he wasn't), in a normal year (it wasn't) with camp and preseason and time to get settled into the O before week 1, I have no doubt he would have fully replaced Anderson's typical 700 yards, 6 TD's level of production.

No one painted Perriman as an All-Pro.  People like me painted him as an adequate replacement of production for Anderson, nothing more.  

Anderson >> Perriman 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Anderson was a career ~700 yards & 6 TD's a year guy.  Perriman had 645 yards and 6 TD's in 2019.   

It wasn't a huge stretch to postulate that Perriman would replace Anderson's typical performance.

And he would have had he not missed a big chunk of the season.  He had 500 yards in 12 games w/ 3 TD's.

Had he been healthy (he wasn't), in a normal year (it wasn't) with camp and preseason and time to get settled into the O before week 1, I have no doubt he would have fully replaced Anderson's typical 700 yards, 6 TD's level of production.

No one painted Perriman as an All-Pro.  People like me painted him as an adequate replacement of production for Anderson, nothing more.  

The difference is you’re making that judgment from stats alone, and those career average stats were not only handicapped by Darnold (Anderson wasn’t on the receiving end of a 5000-yard season from his QB), but you’re further rounding down by a hundred yards for him without doing the same for Perriman to make them look about the same. 

Perriman has been unreliable since being drafted and he showed why. By health or other reasons, he’s never been deserving of being on the field for ~15 starts over another starter, which is kind of the point. He had 645 yards because he was on an offense that threw the ball nonstop. Winston threw for over 5000 yards; that didn’t therefore make him a good or reliable QB. 

It was poor judgment by Douglas, who’s made many poor judgment calls already. If you want to lump yourself in as agreeing with it, that doesn’t therefore make Douglas correct; it makes you both wrong. At least Douglas admits he screwed that up badly (in particular after passing on a mid-round pick for Anderson in mid-2019) instead of doubling down on his rationalization.

Nobody’s always right, and missing out on Anderson isn’t like Maccagnan missing on however many QBs. I’m more annoyed at him making repeated wrong judgment calls than just this one. He’s been establishing a pretty bad pattern that I hope reverses course immediately this year. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The difference is you’re making that judgment from stats alone, and those career average stats were not only handicapped by Darnold (Anderson wasn’t on the receiving end of a 5000-yard season from his QB), but you’re further rounding down by a hundred yards for him without doing the same for Perriman to make them look about the same.

Of course I'm judging by career stats alone, production is all that matters.  

Judging Anderson by his career to-date (mostly with Darnold) when looking forward at how he will produce with Darnold in 2020 was and is entirely appropriate.

As to your "rounding down" comment, give me a break, I'm using generalizations here.  If you absolutely must have a to-the-yard number of Anderson, you can go to Pro Football Reference and calculate it yourself.  The round number was close enough for me (700 vs. 764).  

As an aside, his Yards-Per-Target was unchanged in 2020 (8.1), Carolina just threw him the ball a ton more times (136 in 2020 vs. 96 with us) and his production per reception dropped considerably (from 15.0 to 11.5).  Basically Andersons production in 2020 was higher because Christian McCaffrey (who soaks up alot of catches) was hurt for much of the year.  With a healthy C.M., Anderson likely gets 30 less catches, and finishes up exactly where he usually finished up here with us.

Quote

Perriman has been unreliable since being drafted and he showed why. By health or other reasons, he’s never been deserving of being on the field for ~15 starts over another starter, which is kind of the point. He had 645 yards because he was on an offense that threw the ball nonstop. Winston threw for over 5000 yards; that didn’t therefore make him a good or reliable QB. 

Agreed.  It was unquestionably a risk, and to add, the "expected production" was clearly being based on his play at the end of 2019, a very small sample size.  No doubt whatsoever JD was taking a calculated risk.

Quote

It was poor judgment by Douglas, who’s made many poor judgment calls already. If you want to lump yourself in as agreeing with it, that doesn’t therefore make Douglas correct; it makes you both wrong.

Letting a 2nd tier talent like Robby go when asking for too much money for his production is not the killer his fanbois think it is.  He made no difference to wins and losses in Carolina (A 5 win team with Robby with much more talent than us), and would have made absolutely no difference here to the course of our season.  

Quote

At least Douglas admits he screwed that up badly (in particular after passing on a mid-round pick for Anderson in mid-2019) instead of doubling down on his rationalization.

Sometimes people say what fans want to hear.  

Quote

Nobody’s always right, and missing out on Anderson isn’t like Maccagnan missing on however many QBs. I’m more annoyed at him making repeated wrong judgment calls than just this one. He’s been establishing a pretty bad pattern that I hope reverses course immediately this year. 

What did we "miss out on" exactly?  An overpriced 2nd tier #2 WR?  A production variance of maybe ~200 yards total?  Yeah, that would have mattered to our paltry record.....

I'll just repeat what you yourself said a few posts ago:  

"I’m not upset over losing Anderson - there are other/better WRs to be had"

Our GM took a risk, and it didn't work out.  But at least he made an effort to try and improve what had been to that point a clearly and unquestionably underperforming spot on our team (#1 WR).  

Never has so much hot air been expelled for a 764 yard UDFA #1 WR.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Warfish said:

So no concerns for you that he played a bunch of nobody puffballs, for the most part.  

It would be way more concerning if he sucked playing for a bunch of nobody puffballs.  The only reason he's in the discussion as a potential high first round pick is he was good and he has some things that stand out like:

Strengths: 

  • Powerful right arm 
  • Can make all the throws in the NFL 
  • Pushes the ball downfield 
  • Accurate passer 
  • Can throw a hard fastball into tight windows 
  • Good deep-ball accuracy 
  • Throws a pretty deep ball 
  • Makes big throws off platform 
  • Able to loft in touch passes 
  • Throws a catchable ball 
  • Stands tall in the pocket 
  • Moves his eyes 
  • Works through his progression 
  • Can throw receivers open 
  • Doesn't miss open receivers 
  • Shows good timing 
  • Anticipation 
  • Good athlete 
  • Dangerous runner 
  • Can buy time with his feet 
  • Can hurt defenses on the ground 
  • Quickness and burst as a runner 
  • Quick feet 
  • Shifty runner in the open field 
  • Wise to avoid hits as a senior 
  • Intelligent 
  • Good recall
  • Confident 
  • Competitor 
  • Brings energy to his team 
  • Upside 

     
  • Weaknesses: 
     
  • Aspects of poor football character 
  • One-year wonder 
  • Lean build; could stand to add weight 
  • Lacks experience against elite competition 
  • Should get quicker working through progressions 
  • Accuracy suffers under pressure 

     
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Embrace the Suck said:

When Perriman catches the ball consistently I'll take his opinion or lack thereof more seriously.

  

14 hours ago, Warfish said:

Neither was very good in 2020 in and of themselves.

Of course they want the narrative to be that it was Sam.

We'll find out if there is any truth to that as soon as we play someone other than Sam at #1.

Neither are good enough today to throw anyone else under any busses IMO.

 

Perriman's numbers when paired with Flacco:

  • 11 catches on 19 targets (58 % catch rate)
  • 217 yards
  • 3 TD's
  • 11.4 yards per target

Perriman's numbers with Darnold:

  • 19 catches on 41 targets (46 % catch rate)
  • 288 yards
  • 0 TD's
  • 7.0 yards per target

 

Yeah, Perriman was the problem.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

I haven't seen all of their games, but his offensive line must have been solid, because nearly every video I see, he's got good protection. Even the game I posted, his 'bad' game where he was under pressure, I mean, it was nothing close to the type of pressure/hits your standard Jets quarterback will take on Sundays.

Also, I think the BYU left tackle, Christensen, had the highest grade in pass protection of any tackle in college football last year from PFF... so he's got that going for him... which is nice (Caddyshack ftw).

But yea, I think his skill position players were nothing special and I absolutely respect his arm talent/anticipation. 

The elephant in the room is the competition he faced and the two shoulder surgeries on his throwing arm. I can't speak intelligently enough on whether either of those things really matter, but I can understand the concern from the outside. 

He’s had ONE injury to his throwing shoulder. Which was injured almost 4 years ago and was repaired 2 years ago. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Warfish said:

So no concerns for you that he played a bunch of nobody puffballs, for the most part.  

Its a fair point but what if i turn that around?

the game will get faster and competition will be increased. But that will apply to HIS team mates as well. 
 

yes the defenders will have more talent but he will also have talent. Becton blocking. Faster wrs etc.

The argument you present would only be valid if his offense from college had to play the ravens defense. They wont.

If he gets 2 or 3 seconds in the pocket and his receivers get a lil seperation I dont see whats stopping him from delivering the ball any differently than in college

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

Perriman's numbers when paired with Flacco:

  • 11 catches on 19 targets (58 % catch rate)
  • 217 yards
  • 3 TD's
  • 11.4 yards per target

Perriman's numbers with Darnold:

  • 19 catches on 41 targets (46 % catch rate)
  • 288 yards
  • 0 TD's
  • 7.0 yards per target

 

Yeah, Perriman was the problem.

Stuff like this is my biggest concern about Sam. I want to write off a lot of what happened and blame it on Gase. But there is so much that is hard to overlook, the long ball is at the top of that list.

  • Upvote 2
  • Sympathy 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Beerfish said:

What does that have to do with Perriman being a total jag or mims being a so so rookie?

Perriman was a solid WR3 and Mims looked like a future WR1 or high end WR2 last season.  Especially when they played with Flacco.  

I don't know what games you were watching.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...