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Fastest way to the top; scheme/position flexibility (monster thread)


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4 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

The Sanchez model merely means that if you have  good team you can get some results even if you have a lousy to mediocre QB.  To be good long term in the league you need a good QB but just a good Qb guarantees nothing.

And it is often an easier landing for  young guy and a more impactfu result from a vet if the team is built to almost built.

The Jets need to worry much more about elevating team talent than worrying about Qb right at this moment.

 

 

The Sanchez model is fine if you want to have two good seasons before you don’t have the cap space to keep the team together. It’s really really hard to line up young talent with veteran talent in the NFL and that window doesn’t last all that long.

A good QB guarantees nothing but is also pretty much the common thread of the franchises that have extended runs of success and that’s the goal, no?

I’m not saying the Jets need to find the guy right now but the franchises that have done well for extended periods have found the right guy, focused on his development, and benefitted from it tremendously. So if this year isn’t the year, how are you setting the table to be a good situation for a guy next year, how are you going to facilitate his progression as a professional quarterback, etc.

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Thinking about these names -- I mean if wishes washed dishes, then i'd have Sam do a Tannehill-80 and trade back, take Pitts (then probably excuse myself to the washroom for 5 mins or so)

But otherwise if I'm GM, like for real, i'd probably pull the trigger on Zach Fields, flip Darnold and do most of the things i listed. Mostly because in 2021 - i'm in the control.... I may not be in 2022... Maybe Sam plays himself into a contract discussion that puts me in a tough spot. Do you re-up?? And if not, how much will it cost me to go draft a QB in the top 5?... like 3 firsts again??  So, just do it now.

I'd do my best to bring in talent on the Oline, PR and Secondary... But it would an offense heavy draft. 

Paradis' Jets would look something like this:

  • QB: Zach Fields, Tyrod Taylor, James Morgan
  • RB: Carter, Ty Johnson, Perine, Juszcyck
  • WR: Mims, Samuel, Marshall, Crowder, Jackson
  • TE: Everett, Herndon, Griffin

I could live with that for Year 1 of the Saleh era with the new QB

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12 hours ago, Paradis said:

Appreciate the thoughts. I'm a gator fan, and I thank Toney for his time. But in the 1st rnd? Good lord, no.  He's a slot receiver, with little positional flexibility... Yes you can manufacture some LOS touches for him - but even guys who crushed college like Shenault - that only goes so far. I picked these guys to represent people i thought give you lots of playcalling options in addition to the price being right. Toney - too expensive for my tastes. I dunno, @JiF probably has a stronger opinion than I on that one.

As much I'd love to see JD punt Defense to next year, he'd probably wake up to find Saleh in the rocking chair at foot of his bed one night, if he did. I see either #23 or #34 going CB or someone like Perkins. 

Don't sleep on Marshall! 

Is Toney being touted a 1st rounder now?  Seems high but I dont know man, kid balled out of control this year.  He's legit, the shifitiest player I've ever seen and if we're talking versatility, not sure there are too many players out there who give you more.  He does it all; hand offs, screens, route tree, punts....guy is electric.  He's a big play threat every time he touches the ball.  I love him and think he could explode in the NFL for a team that knows how to use a guy like him.

 

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13 hours ago, Paradis said:

Yea, the speed thing is real for me. I could take him or leave him to be honest but the cost is why i usually leave him out. I'd have a round 3-4 grade on him. Not particularly fast or flashy, hands are meh, nothing looks overly smooth or easy for Bateman. How developed in his game? Doesn't look like a tactician.... hate to compare jerseys but Tyler Johnson.... 

He has his fans out there. So... *shrugs* ...I tried to focus on versatility with this. Don't think that's Bateman's strong suite. 

Have to agree to disagree here, I love Bateman, if I had to come up with a comparison I think he reminds me a bit of Davante Adams coming out, now I know that seems like a heady call as Adams is currently as good as it gets in the NFL but it took him 2 -3 years to really break out in Green Bay. Watch Adams college tape and watch Bateman and there’s a lot of similarity,
I actually think Bateman has good hands and crucially he has that knack of getting open(with Mims already on the roster as a potentially good contested ball catcher we really need someone who separates, that could be Rashod). He might even have better speed and quickness than Adams.

 

totally disagree about the tactician observation, I see him working DB’s and space and setting up plays, I think his game is somewhat developed and will have to be if he isn’t an all out burner but those guys who are smart, physically gifted in terms of size and frame and have the desire and the coach ability get on well on Sundays.

anyway, the beauty of the draft is we can all see different things and have differing opinions. I think Bateman is worth another look but appreciate you just don’t fancy him as a prospect. Interestingly I really liked Johnson and I think Bateman is way better, I think Tyler gets lost in that stacked TB group and so his lack of production year 1 can be justified, he could very easily go on to replace Godwin if he leaves in FA and have a very good career.

just my opinion

 

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8 hours ago, Paradis said:

Thinking about these names -- I mean if wishes washed dishes, then i'd have Sam do a Tannehill-80 and trade back, take Pitts (then probably excuse myself to the washroom for 5 mins or so)

But otherwise if I'm GM, like for real, i'd probably pull the trigger on Zach Fields, flip Darnold and do most of the things i listed. Mostly because in 2021 - i'm in the control.... I may not be in 2022... Maybe Sam plays himself into a contract discussion that puts me in a tough spot. Do you re-up?? And if not, how much will it cost me to go draft a QB in the top 5?... like 3 firsts again??  So, just do it now.

I'd do my best to bring in talent on the Oline, PR and Secondary... But it would an offense heavy draft. 

Paradis' Jets would look something like this:

  • QB: Zach Fields, Tyrod Taylor, James Morgan
  • RB: Carter, Ty Johnson, Perine, Juszcyck
  • WR: Mims, Samuel, Marshall, Crowder, Jackson
  • TE: Everett, Herndon, Griffin

I could live with that for Year 1 of the Saleh era with the new QB

I’m loving your Justin Wilson / Zach FieldS QB hybrid!!

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11 hours ago, win4ever said:

Great post!

QB:  I agree, I think Fields fits the scheme extremely well.  His mobility should translate to the NFL, and his deep passing game would give defenses pause.  I think part of the issue with our offense this year has been Darnold's clear regression on deep routes.  We saw a major uptick in offense when Joe Flacco of all people took over.  Having a QB that is accurate on the deep passes, while still having excellent mobility is ridiculously hard for defenses to defend.  This goes extra hard if you run the same outside zone schemes.  

In the Super Bowl, the Pats basically said Jared Goff couldn't beat the Pats over the top, put single high and zero cover at times and completely took away the run/middle of the field for passing.  An accurate deep ball passer prevents that defense.  

FB:  On a personal level, I'm against FBs, but if they feel it would help the system, I'm ok with it. 

RB:  Both good choices, I've been also trying to learn about Chuba Hubbard, because I think his running style and speed would fit in well, but his catching has been sub-par.  I'm assuming they keep Perine, and Ty Johnson.  So it'll be interesting to see which direction they go towards.  

The WR one is interesting because I think Samuel would be a great fit in the offense.  My only issue is I don't know how to feel about Mims being the de-facto No. 1 in the offense.  I would love to get Samuel as the slot guy.  If we sign Samuel, then I think it all but pushes us towards drafting a high WR as well.  

I would like Robinson/Galloday/Godwin better not necessarily for scheme fit, but because I think a young QB needs a bad read eraser and those guys can be that.  

Draft WR:  I lovee Toney? I know the Senior Bowl has the hype high on him, but I've heard he would drop out of the first with character concerns.  Albeit, those concerns may take him off the board for us as well.  

Also, Bateman?  While SF has mainly gone towards YAC guys, McVay went very high on route runners and intermediate guys, like Woods/Kupp/Jefferson.  I love Bateman's ability to create separation on film, but I would like to see his speed and agility.  

I really like Elijah Moore as a 3rd round target as well, seems like someone that has the ability to be a YAC monster.  

TE:  This one is hard because I'm not sure what the heck happened to Herndon.  

I like the Everett choice, albeit I would keep an eye on Njoku as well from the Browns.  They barely use him, and it would help shed some money for them.  In the same vein, OJ Howard, albeit I don't know how he recovers from the injury.  

My nomination is Jonnu Smith because Derick Henry really took off when Smith started to play more regularly.  He's a very capable blocker, but has enough ability to be a receiving threat.  I think he fits perfectly in the system because he's such a good outside blocker, while being able still be a receiving threat.  Going back to my earlier point, I may bypass the FB position if we could add Smith.  

 

I like Jonnu, but I feel he's going to reunite with Arthur Smith in Atlanta. 

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12 hours ago, JiF said:

Is Toney being touted a 1st rounder now?  Seems high but I dont know man, kid balled out of control this year.  He's legit, the shifitiest player I've ever seen and if we're talking versatility, not sure there are too many players out there who give you more.  He does it all; hand offs, screens, route tree, punts....guy is electric.  He's a big play threat every time he touches the ball.  I love him and think he could explode in the NFL for a team that knows how to use a guy like him.

 

Yea he is, and for all his flashy plays, i just can't buy into him at that price. Maybe I'm undervaluing how hard it is to bring him down, and that should earn him a spot here just based on lethal he is once the ball in his hands.. I can't put my finger onnit but i just have this feeling those plays will be less frequent in the NFL. 

12 hours ago, redlichtie said:

Have to agree to disagree here, I love Bateman, if I had to come up with a comparison I think he reminds me a bit of Davante Adams coming out, now I know that seems like a heady call as Adams is currently as good as it gets in the NFL but it took him 2 -3 years to really break out in Green Bay. Watch Adams college tape and watch Bateman and there’s a lot of similarity,
I actually think Bateman has good hands and crucially he has that knack of getting open(with Mims already on the roster as a potentially good contested ball catcher we really need someone who separates, that could be Rashod). He might even have better speed and quickness than Adams.

totally disagree about the tactician observation, I see him working DB’s and space and setting up plays, I think his game is somewhat developed and will have to be if he isn’t an all out burner but those guys who are smart, physically gifted in terms of size and frame and have the desire and the coach ability get on well on Sundays.

anyway, the beauty of the draft is we can all see different things and have differing opinions. I think Bateman is worth another look but appreciate you just don’t fancy him as a prospect. Interestingly I really liked Johnson and I think Bateman is way better, I think Tyler gets lost in that stacked TB group and so his lack of production year 1 can be justified, he could very easily go on to replace Godwin if he leaves in FA and have a very good career.

just my opinion

 

I'm open to being wrong. I'll go back and give him his due. I admit that of the popular top 5 WRs, i've spend the least amount of time watching him. I didn't like Johnson last year, and fell out of Love with N'Keal Harry for similar reasons. 

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20 hours ago, win4ever said:

Great post!

QB:  I agree, I think Fields fits the scheme extremely well.  His mobility should translate to the NFL, and his deep passing game would give defenses pause.  I think part of the issue with our offense this year has been Darnold's clear regression on deep routes.  We saw a major uptick in offense when Joe Flacco of all people took over.  Having a QB that is accurate on the deep passes, while still having excellent mobility is ridiculously hard for defenses to defend.  This goes extra hard if you run the same outside zone schemes.  

In the Super Bowl, the Pats basically said Jared Goff couldn't beat the Pats over the top, put single high and zero cover at times and completely took away the run/middle of the field for passing.  An accurate deep ball passer prevents that defense.  

FB:  On a personal level, I'm against FBs, but if they feel it would help the system, I'm ok with it. 

RB:  Both good choices, I've been also trying to learn about Chuba Hubbard, because I think his running style and speed would fit in well, but his catching has been sub-par.  I'm assuming they keep Perine, and Ty Johnson.  So it'll be interesting to see which direction they go towards.  

The WR one is interesting because I think Samuel would be a great fit in the offense.  My only issue is I don't know how to feel about Mims being the de-facto No. 1 in the offense.  I would love to get Samuel as the slot guy.  If we sign Samuel, then I think it all but pushes us towards drafting a high WR as well.  

I would like Robinson/Galloday/Godwin better not necessarily for scheme fit, but because I think a young QB needs a bad read eraser and those guys can be that.  

Draft WR:  I lovee Toney? I know the Senior Bowl has the hype high on him, but I've heard he would drop out of the first with character concerns.  Albeit, those concerns may take him off the board for us as well.  

Also, Bateman?  While SF has mainly gone towards YAC guys, McVay went very high on route runners and intermediate guys, like Woods/Kupp/Jefferson.  I love Bateman's ability to create separation on film, but I would like to see his speed and agility.  

I really like Elijah Moore as a 3rd round target as well, seems like someone that has the ability to be a YAC monster.  

TE:  This one is hard because I'm not sure what the heck happened to Herndon.  

I like the Everett choice, albeit I would keep an eye on Njoku as well from the Browns.  They barely use him, and it would help shed some money for them.  In the same vein, OJ Howard, albeit I don't know how he recovers from the injury.  

My nomination is Jonnu Smith because Derick Henry really took off when Smith started to play more regularly.  He's a very capable blocker, but has enough ability to be a receiving threat.  I think he fits perfectly in the system because he's such a good outside blocker, while being able still be a receiving threat.  Going back to my earlier point, I may bypass the FB position if we could add Smith.  

 

thanks for taking the time to go for the deep dive. 

  • Agree about Darnold's deep ball regression. Confidence was eroded. Feels like a true "fresh start" needed scenario
  • I fell out of love with Hubbard. Didn't want - being a kid who played near my home - but not sure has "it"
  • I already gave my 2 cents in this thread about Toney and Bateman - I don't like either enough to pay the draft capital need. If Bateman was still hanging in the 3rd round.... I'd look his way. 
  • I have lots of confidence in Mims, but that doesn't mean i won't keep taking shots. Marshall, Smith if he's there at #23, Moore etc
  • Herndon probably needs a fair shake under a new regime. Thankfully we have another year to do that, but that wouldn't stop me for bringing in competition. 

I would really like to see JD draft/sign some playmakers that tell me he sees something... Like there was more than just dumb intent... Kind of an awkward statement - but I don't want to see making uninspired moves that feel like they were picked because "well I guess he's the next best"... or in Mac's case, thinking he's being savvy. 

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On 2/6/2021 at 3:47 PM, Paradis said:

Unless Hopkins and Kamara suddenly materialize on our roster - a team in our situation needs to find a way to maximize scheme mileage. Doing that means creating and exploiting mismatches. Asking your X wide receiver to win every match up, and your RB to truck every tackler is the path of most resistance. 

The best way to get this offense surging is to find those players and positions of flexibility and plasticity

Quarterback: Justin Fields (of DW if you will) Though he's far more than "dual threat" he does possess the athleticism to make big plays with his legs ala Watson - keeping DC's honest and their LB's attention.

FB: sign Kyle Juszcyck.... The system Kyle runs still makes use of a FB, largely because of the reasons I listed. The closest thing in 2021 to a true H-back, Kyle gives you little bit of everything with his ability being flexed to line up in a variety of packages, in different spots with different roles. a 2021 FA, he should be a target for this team. 

RB: draft Kenny Gainwell (Memphis) or Michael Carter (UNC)... both are very capable backs with plus hands who would thrive in a slash and gash role in the Shanny-system.  Compact, physical and both possess that trademark burst needed to explode to the second level. Their ability to catch the ball along with Juszcyck in the formation will capitalize and exploit mismatches.

 

Wide Receiver: sign Curtis Samuel (CAR) or Keelan Cole (JAX).... @Shockwave already provided a platform for case for Samuel, check it out. I've long been a fan. I'll offer also that under the radar signing could be Keelan Cole, a Jaguar who exploded in his rookie year, but has been up and down since then and lost in the shuffle. He's a slight at 6'1 190, but is more than capable of lining up at Z and S. 

*lol the matrix chose that pic @Jetsfan80

 

Please be right on the jets drafting fields. 

How about Wesco at FB? Seems like a great scheme fir there 

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13 hours ago, maury77 said:

I like Jonnu, but I feel he's going to reunite with Arthur Smith in Atlanta. 

I'm not sure they can afford him though.  From what I see, they are about 31 million over the cap, and find a way to extend Calvin Ridley as well.  I think they are basically in cut mode to get under the cap.

4 hours ago, Paradis said:

thanks for taking the time to go for the deep dive. 

  • Agree about Darnold's deep ball regression. Confidence was eroded. Feels like a true "fresh start" needed scenario
  • I fell out of love with Hubbard. Didn't want - being a kid who played near my home - but not sure has "it"
  • I already gave my 2 cents in this thread about Toney and Bateman - I don't like either enough to pay the draft capital need. If Bateman was still hanging in the 3rd round.... I'd look his way. 
  • I have lots of confidence in Mims, but that doesn't mean i won't keep taking shots. Marshall, Smith if he's there at #23, Moore etc
  • Herndon probably needs a fair shake under a new regime. Thankfully we have another year to do that, but that wouldn't stop me for bringing in competition. 

I would really like to see JD draft/sign some playmakers that tell me he sees something... Like there was more than just dumb intent... Kind of an awkward statement - but I don't want to see making uninspired moves that feel like they were picked because "well I guess he's the next best"... or in Mac's case, thinking he's being savvy. 

Yeah, my only hope for Darnold is if the new system is just so much easier to understand that he forgets the issues with Gase.  I don't even know why he regressed, because Perriman/Mims both as good downfield threats, but he just seemed completely off.  

I love his running style, but the catching concerns me, albeit I'm assuming Perrine might be able to handle it.  I'm not all that deep into the RB draft this year.  

I think the one thing I worry about Toney is actually his speed.  I saw a couple of plays where he got chased down from behind, which was concerning for a guy that gets compared to Tyreek Hill at times.  

For me, I want to see a plan of attack where it makes sense.  For example, even in his heyday, we ran the wrong system for Leveon Bell, yet still bought him in.  So far he seems to at least have a plan where there is some semblance of thought,  

 

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QB: Justin Fields is definitely a talented player that has a very promising future in the NFL but he doesn't fit the WCO scheme that the new Jets coaching staff want to implement.  If they decide to change that, though doubtful considering the coaching staff they brought in, then maybe Fields is the choice.  The WCO is known as the nickel and dime offense which uses short high percentage passes to control the ball.  Not saying Fields cannot do that, in fact he has shown the ability to get the ball out quickly and accurately on short to intermediate passes, but his deep ball ability is not a big plus for the offensive scheme.

As much as fans want to deny it, the coaching staff was brought into help Darnold or a similar type of player.  That may all get thrown out if Watson becomes available or Fields wows them before the draft.  Darnold has shown many similarities to Jimmy G, both positive and negative.  The upside to the offense with Darnold is Jimmy G's 2019 season which wasn't drastically better statistically than Darnold's 2019 season (if he could have stayed healthy for all 16 games).

Darnold 2019 (projection through 16 games): 3721 yards, 24 passing TDs, 2 Rushing TDs, 16 Int

Garoppolo 2019: 3978 yards, 27 passing TDs, 1 rushing TD, 13 INT

An extra 250 yards, 2 TDs and cutting down the interceptions shouldn't be too hard with an improved offensive line and better supporting players. 

Justin Fields is a very talented player and this is not a knock on him or a case for keeping Darnold, but Fields doesn't seem like a fit for the WCO.  WCO QBs rank average or below average in completed air yards per completion which indicates the scheme is built to throw shorter passes as compared to other systems like Houston or Atlanta.

FB: A very big part of the offensive scheme.  A good blocking fullback turns 2-3 yard runs into 4-5 yard runs.  Kyle "Juice" Juszczyk would be a great fit, but also a player like Ben Mason from Michigan late in the draft is someone the Jets should target.

RB: Both Carter and Gainwell look like good fits for the scheme.  Both have shown the explosiveness to get up field but also can contribute in the passing game.  The concern with most rookie running backs is the ability to block which is something both players need to work on.  With the success the offensive scheme has had with running backs, the Jets may be able to wait until the 3rd day or even UDFA to find an RB to run with Ty Johnson and La'Mical Perine. Jah-Maine Martin, Jaret Patterson, 

WR: Curtis Samuel is a good, versatile wide receiver.  Can line up on the outside, in the slot, and in the backfield.  He is also an above average YAC receiver which is a desire of the system.  Screens and short passes with 2 yards of the line of scrimmage needs player that turn those passes into 4-7 yard gains.  Finding receivers that can consistently have positive "YAC above expectation" is what makes the offense work.  Also have players with good route running and the quicks on intermediate routes is key.  Long stride, big bodied, go up and get it WRs are not a big part of the offense.  Luckily, this draft has a lot of YAC wide receivers, some can be found in the mid and late rounds. Cade Johnson, Tutu Atwell, Amari Rodgers (Tee Martin's kid), Shi Smith, Elijah Moore, Amon-Ra St Brown, Whop Philyor, Jaelon Darden, Marquez Stevenson and the list goes on.  Demetric Felton is also someone to watch as he transitions from an RB to WR, with the potential to be taken on the 2nd day.

TE: Jonnu Smith, Gerald Everett, and Trey Burton are all excellent choices, as is Pat Freiermuth in the draft.  Freiermuth has much to improve with his blocking but it is not a liability nor will it keep him from the field.  A few players to look at in the mid rounds is Hunter Long and Tre' McKitty.  Great blocking with some receiving skills.

There is a lot of good mid round talent this year that will fit with the WCO scheme.  "Jack of all trades, master of none" type players that fall into the 2nd/3rd day and can develop into high performing assets in this offense.

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