This is how Mahomes would look if the Jets drafted him in 2017!

[prime21]

Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[Biggs]

12 hours ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

Darnold apologists, just getting it out the way for you guys.

You don't have to apologize.  I wanted Darnold to be great.  I don't take it personally that he isn't. 

[HawkeyeJet]

2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Seriously?

The premise of this entire topic is saying that.

Yes.  I am serious.  I can only speak for myself.  To me, it isn't a discussion of "see Darnold really is good because of this".  The Darnold debate, to me, had always been, how much have circumstances hindered his development.

I don't think Darnold is good.  He's clearly not.  But I think it's ridiculous to think that circumstances like, coaching and surrounding talent don't have a HUGE role in how players develop.  

My argument is not that Darnold is good.  It never has been.  I'm beyond ready to move on from him.  But I think it is absolutely ridiculous for anyone to say that he's had the same chance to flourish as Mahomes.  Or Josh Allen even.

I would bet my damn near life savings that if Darnold was drafted by KC and followed the exact same path Mahomes did(sitting out a year etc) he wouldn't be nearly the flop he is now.  Would he be as good as Mahomes is currently?  No, I don't believe that, but I KC would likely still be a playoff team and i doubt Darnold would be in any danger of being moved on from.

Conversely, if Mahomes came to the Jets and played immediately under Bowles and then Gase, I highly doubt he's anywhere near an MVP caliber player, nor do I think the Jets are a perennial playoff team at this point.

You can scoff at that if you like, that's fine.  But it's dumb to say that people who try to point out he had serious handicaps in his development are trying to say he's actually good. 

[RedBeardedSavage]

20 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Seriously?

The premise of this entire topic is saying that.

This thread was a started to land a reactionary preemptive strike to what was clearly going to be the big takeaway from last nights game:

Even talented quarterbacks look like sh*t in bad circumstances. 

[genot]

I get the feeling that the Darnold detractors, no matter what the facts are, would be the ones to take their shirt off in freezing temps with Darnold sucks, painted on thier chest.

[FidelioJet]

13 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Yes.  I am serious.  I can only speak for myself.  To me, it isn't a discussion of "see Darnold really is good because of this".  The Darnold debate, to me, had always been, how much have circumstances hindered his development.

I don't think Darnold is good.  He's clearly not.  But I think it's ridiculous to think that circumstances like, coaching and surrounding talent don't have a HUGE role in how players develop.  

My argument is not that Darnold is good.  It never has been.  I'm beyond ready to move on from him.  But I think it is absolutely ridiculous for anyone to say that he's had the same chance to flourish as Mahomes.  Or Josh Allen even.

I would bet my damn near life savings that if Darnold was drafted by KC and followed the exact same path Mahomes did(sitting out a year etc) he wouldn't be nearly the flop he is now.  Would he be as good as Mahomes is currently?  No, I don't believe that, but I KC would likely still be a playoff team and i doubt Darnold would be in any danger of being moved on from.

Conversely, if Mahomes came to the Jets and played immediately under Bowles and then Gase, I highly doubt he's anywhere near an MVP caliber player, nor do I think the Jets are a perennial playoff team at this point.

You can scoff at that if you like, that's fine.  But it's dumb to say that people who try to point out he had serious handicaps in his development are trying to say he's actually good. 

I agree with all of that - I’m with you 100%. I couldn’t agree more with what you wrote  

But my initial comment wasn’t directed at your thought process, it was directed at this thread and it was certainly justified.

[dcJet]

Mahomes on the Jets would look like Watson on the Texans. 

Darnold on the Chiefs would look like Goff on the Rams.      

[dcJet]

All these can be true.  Gaze's offense sucks, Jets weaponz suck, Sam sucks.

Removing the first two does not fix the third.

[football guy]

54 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

Mahomes was walking funny  when shown pre-game walking around the stadium. 

Turf toe or no turf toe TB beat them. 

End of story. 

He always walks funny though. No bs lol like look how he walks to the sideline with his head tilted and in a weird pace every game. I've always been like wut 

[playtowinthegame]

55 minutes ago, prime21 said:

Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

Brady just ended the "baby goat" talk. Mahomes will never surpass Brady's 7 rings. Mahomes needed to win his 2nd ring last night vs Brady and make it a 4 ring gap. Now it's 7 to 1 and Patty Cakes will not surpass 7 rings let alone even sniff 7 rings. He'll be bald and out the league before he hits 43. ?

[RedBeardedSavage]

3 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

It's a pretty long stretch to suggest any serious equivalence between: 

KC's backup tackles against a defense that gets pressure in about 1 to 1.5 seconds on what looks like 80% of PM's dropbacks AND glue like coverage on his targets;

vs.

the typical protection Darnold got against the Jets' typical defensive opponent.

Despite a desire from some to suggest it, Darnold is typically under nowhere near the duress Mahomes was under in the SB on such a high percentage of his dropbacks. If that was the case there wouldn't be scores of footage examples of Darnold's screwups when he's got clean pockets and open receivers. It'd be nothing but "he had no chance all game long" every week of his career, with as much consensus excuse-making as KC's fans are surely saying/thinking about the SB.

O'Doyle Rules might be done here, he might never recover, I completely accept that. 

But dude has been in the worst situation in the sport for three years running.

I'm saying, make the situation better, roll it back one more year and then move on if there isn't a Josh Allen jump. 

Taking the scraps at quarterback from BYU and Ohio State in the Trevor Lawrence draft is going to be the most Jets move ever.

[Bowles Movement]

12 hours ago, Ghost420 said:

This was far worse than a bad oline tonight. The last time I seen such bad play was Jets vs Pats the ghost game.

The head coach offensive genius and his Offensive coordinator head coach candidate did not make a single change to the game plan after seeing what Tampa's game plan was .  It reminded me of the past two years with Gase.

Meanwhile Tampa changed the play calls after the first two 3 and outs, going to the short passes to the backs and TEs.   Who would have thought that the Bucs could win with Evans and Godwin only catching 3 balls between them?  

[Ghost420]

11 minutes ago, Bowles Movement said:

The head coach offensive genius and his Offensive coordinator head coach candidate did not make a single change to the game plan after seeing what Tampa's game plan was .  It reminded me of the past two years with Gase.

Meanwhile Tampa changed the play calls after the first two 3 and outs, going to the short passes to the backs and TEs.   Who would have thought that the Bucs could win with Evans and Godwin only catching 3 balls between them?  

Ya the entire chiefs team was horrible yesterday. I still don't understand your point in reference to my comment.

[Jimmy 2 Times]

10 hours ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

Wait a second, your premise is that Darnold has no chance because of the OL - you stated so in your previous post. When you then see that Herbert played ten times better behind a worse OL than Darnold has, you then move the goalposts to 'weaponz' and 'Adam Gase sucks', the secondary tools in the Defend Darnold playbook.

Explain to me how Herbert is playing so well with the worst OL in the NFL?

The damage was done last season.  

When your shell shocked your shell shocked.

[Bowles Movement]

24 minutes ago, Ghost420 said:

Ya the entire chiefs team was horrible yesterday. I still don't understand your point in reference to my comment.

"This was far worse than a bad oline tonight."

I was agreeing with you!

[Biggs]

1 hour ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Yes.  I am serious.  I can only speak for myself.  To me, it isn't a discussion of "see Darnold really is good because of this".  The Darnold debate, to me, had always been, how much have circumstances hindered his development.

I don't think Darnold is good.  He's clearly not.  But I think it's ridiculous to think that circumstances like, coaching and surrounding talent don't have a HUGE role in how players develop.  

My argument is not that Darnold is good.  It never has been.  I'm beyond ready to move on from him.  But I think it is absolutely ridiculous for anyone to say that he's had the same chance to flourish as Mahomes.  Or Josh Allen even.

I would bet my damn near life savings that if Darnold was drafted by KC and followed the exact same path Mahomes did(sitting out a year etc) he wouldn't be nearly the flop he is now.  Would he be as good as Mahomes is currently?  No, I don't believe that, but I KC would likely still be a playoff team and i doubt Darnold would be in any danger of being moved on from.

Conversely, if Mahomes came to the Jets and played immediately under Bowles and then Gase, I highly doubt he's anywhere near an MVP caliber player, nor do I think the Jets are a perennial playoff team at this point.

You can scoff at that if you like, that's fine.  But it's dumb to say that people who try to point out he had serious handicaps in his development are trying to say he's actually good. 

Highly unlikely that Darnold would have been anywhere near as good as Alex Smith who is a very good not an elite NFL QB.   KC drafted Mahomes and unloaded Smith after having Mahomes around for a year.  

Alex Smith is 11 and 5 as a starter for the Washington Football team since he was traded.  He was 5 and 1 on a team that went 2 and 8 with Haskins and Kyle Allen starting.  Last year with Smith out for the year they went 1 and 7 with Case Keenum starting before Haskins took over.  The year before Smith went 6 and 4 before his injury.

Sam has been on a bad team and Sam has been really bad.  Mahomes was a freak talent and after watching him comport himself as a backup for a year they traded Alex Smith and moved on.  

It's dumb to think that Mahomes isn't a generational talent who blew away Andy Reid and his coaching staff before he played a snap.  I highly doubt if we drafted him, instead of Adams and used our draft capital properly instead of making another trade to get Darnold our team wouldn't have been better no matter who was coaching it.  

[Hael]

The game reminded me of the Giants vs the 49ers near the tail end of Montana’s reign.  Where they were brutalizing him on almost every drop back, yet somehow he still looked positively GOAT like.

Same thing when Brady was being hounded by the 4man Giants pass rush in 2007 bc his Oline were injured.

The difference between that and Darnold is night and day.  With those examples, you can look at each play and say, yea the QB did a heroic job to get the ball out or eg make something from nothing, but didn’t quite make it.  Whereas in the ghost game, it was mostly Sam being completely lost.

All this to say that Pat looked amazing last night, despite the crappy stats.  Some of those throws were some of the greatest plays I’ve ever seen in a football game.

[Skeet Ulrich]

Just now, Biggs said:

 

It's dumb to think that Mahomes isn't a generational talent who blew away Andy Reid and his coaching staff before he played a snap.  I highly doubt if we drafted him, instead of Adams and used our draft capital properly instead of making another trade to get Darnold our team would have been better no matter who was coaching it.  

Even last night when he was totally under siege, he made some amazing throws that his receivers just plain old dropped. I was really impressed with Mahomes last night. He took a hell of a beating.

[RedBeardedSavage]

3 minutes ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

Even last night when he was totally under siege, he made some amazing throws that his receivers just plain old dropped. I was really impressed with Mahomes last night. He took a hell of a beating.

Those spinning jump shots he threw up that went out the back of the endzone or bounced off the hands of those Bucs defenders were definitely something to watch. 

Footwork + Decision making!

[Ghost420]

15 minutes ago, Bowles Movement said:

"This was far worse than a bad oline tonight."

I was agreeing with you!

Haha ok

[Biggs]

16 minutes ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

Even last night when he was totally under siege, he made some amazing throws that his receivers just plain old dropped. I was really impressed with Mahomes last night. He took a hell of a beating.

I was unimpressed by his rollouts and when he was pinned retreating 20 yards absolutely killing drives.  He's got tremendous talent and great feel but he still needs to learn how to play the position.  In big games you protect the ball and field position.  He really didn't do either last night.  He was very lucky he wasn't picked several times.  

Mahomes has been terrific at moving and seeing the play in front of him.  Last night he was moving without a play to make and his retreats were a disaster.  Sometimes it's to easy for him and last night his lack of respect for fundamental football in a big spot didn't play well.  Reid did little to help him when the game was still under control.  

Could be a great learning experience for him.  

Brady had that one terrible snap.  He could have tried to make a play and turned the ball over.  He protected the ball.  He's a very smart QB. 

[Skeet Ulrich]

Just now, Biggs said:

I was unimpressed by his rollouts and when he was pinned retreating 20 yards absolutely killing drives.  He's got tremendous talent and great feel but he still needs to learn how to play the position.  In big games you protect the ball and field position.  He really didn't do either last night.  He was very lucky he wasn't picked several times.  

Mahomes has been terrific at moving and seeing the play in front of him.  Last night he was moving without a play to make and his retreats were a disaster.  Sometimes it's to easy for him and last night his lack of respect for fundamental football in a big spot didn't play well.  Reid did little to help him when the game was still under control.  

Could be a great learning experience for him.  

When you're getting pressured 1.5 seconds after the snap and the team's not blitzing, you're in for a long night. There's no game plan for not being able to block the other team. That looked like Alabama vs a MAC team last night.

[genot]

1 hour ago, dcJet said:

All these can be true.  Gaze's offense sucks, Jets weaponz suck, Sam sucks.

Removing the first two does not fix the third.

All these can be true. All these can be bot true, also.

[Biggs]

2 minutes ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

When you're getting pressured 1.5 seconds after the snap and the team's not blitzing, you're in for a long night. There's no game plan for not being able to block the other team. That looked like Alabama vs a MAC team last night.

You block, tackle, run the ball and play field position and TOP.  It's football you don't go schoolyard when you can't block their athletes.  You make it simple for the OL and run the football.

[Skeet Ulrich]

2 minutes ago, Biggs said:

You block, tackle, run the ball and play field position and TOP.  It's football you don't go schoolyard when you can't block their athletes.  You make it simple for the OL and run the football.

Again, they did all of that and it mostly got blown up by the LBs, DBs coming downhill. Linemen still have to be able to block and setup screen plays too.

 

TB had the right coverages dialed up + a major advantage up front. Not much you can do when this is the case.

[genot]

6 minutes ago, Biggs said:

I was unimpressed by his rollouts and when he was pinned retreating 20 yards absolutely killing drives.  He's got tremendous talent and great feel but he still needs to learn how to play the position.  In big games you protect the ball and field position.  He really didn't do either last night.  He was very lucky he wasn't picked several times.  

Mahomes has been terrific at moving and seeing the play in front of him.  Last night he was moving without a play to make and his retreats were a disaster.  Sometimes it's to easy for him and last night his lack of respect for fundamental football in a big spot didn't play well.  Reid did little to help him when the game was still under control.  

Could be a great learning experience for him.  

Brady had that one terrible snap.  He could have tried to make a play and turned the ball over.  He protected the ball.  He's a very smart QB. 

You talk about seeing the play in front of you. With the Jet's, they're rarely is. You need recievers to get open, and run good routes. If a QB, is getting pressured, and receivers aren't getting open, that spells trouble. No.

[Biggs]

Just now, Skeet Ulrich said:

Again, they did all of that and it mostly got blown up by the LBs, DBs coming downhill. Linemen still have to be able to block and setup screen plays too

KC averaged 6.29 yards per rush.  TB averaged 4.3 per rush.  TB ran the ball 33 times.  KC ran the ball 17 times. 5 of KC runs came from Mahomes, 2 on the first possession.  

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, dcJet said:

Mahomes on the Jets would look like Watson on the Texans. 

Darnold on the Chiefs would look like Goff on the Rams.      

This is a perfect take.  Mahomes would be a top 5 QB anywhere.  Darnold would be underwhelming anywhere.  That's the difference.  

[Biggs]

9 minutes ago, genot said:

You talk about seeing the play in front of you. With the Jet's, they're rarely is. You need recievers to get open, and run good routes. If a QB, is getting pressured, and receivers aren't getting open, that spells trouble. No.

Mahomes is a great athlete.  What makes him a great QB is he has incredible arm talent, he also has a mind that computes his options and the ability to covert it at an elite NFL level beyond the capacity of almost every other NFL QB.  He has a feel for the position that Darnold hasn't shown at all.  He has arm talent that Darnold doesn't possess.  He's a freak at the position.  That doesn't mean he can't be stopped.  Most NFL teams aren't as good as TB on either side of the ball.  The Jets didn't face a team near as good as TB all year.  Teams don't bring their A game when they play the Jets.  Every team brings there A game when they face Mahomes.  

Mahomes had it at the NFL level before he took a snap in Andy Reid's system.  Sam is a great QB but the NFL is a league where being great in College doesn't matter.  

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

O'Doyle Rules might be done here, he might never recover, I completely accept that. 

But dude has been in the worst situation in the sport for three years running.

I'm saying, make the situation better, roll it back one more year and then move on if there isn't a Josh Allen jump. 

Taking the scraps at quarterback from BYU and Ohio State in the Trevor Lawrence draft is going to be the most Jets move ever.

The thing is that decision doesn't exist in a vacuum. You lose out on all QB prospects available at #2 that you're referring to as "scraps" plus another 1st round pick (or 2nd & a 4th, or whatever it is they can get for Darnold).

Right now Darnold is worth less than these "scraps" prospects, seeing how there isn't a GM in the league that'd trade a top 10 pick for him (never mind a top 5 or #2 overall pick).

The problem is Darnold's given no reason to believe he's worth investment. And your reward for being right is a $30MM/yr contract starting in 2022 even if he's a product of those new investments all around him. I'm saying at this point he hasn't shown he's worth the additional investment. He looks too lost even when the play unfolds just as hoped. I'd tolerate that from a rookie; not from a guy finishing up his 3rd straight NFL season as a starter.

[RedBeardedSavage]

1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The thing is that decision doesn't exist in a vacuum. You lose out on all QB prospects available at #2 that you're referring to as "scraps" plus another 1st round pick (or 2nd & a 4th, or whatever it is they can get for Darnold).

Right now Darnold is worth less than these "scraps" prospects, seeing how there isn't a GM in the league that'd trade a top 10 pick for him (never mind a top 5 or #2 overall pick).

The problem is Darnold's given no reason to believe he's worth investment. And your reward for being right is a $30MM/yr contract starting in 2022 even if he's a product of those new investments all around him. I'm saying at this point he hasn't shown he's worth the additional investment. He looks too lost even when the play unfolds just as hoped. 

We're seriously talking about a BYU quarterback that played two-hand touch all year against cupcakes and the Ohio State quarterback that's Harvey Dent game to game, drive to drive, play to play. 

Those are the choices @ 2. They both have incredible upside and a low floor. 

I guarantee you there will be players like that next year in the first round. I bet you if we trade down we can have three firsts next year, easy.

We also need 3/5 of an offensive line, skill position players all over, a genuine playmaker and mismatch somewhere on offense... and not to mention corners, edge players and coverage LB's for our brand new 4-3. 

Darnold can be a bridge for one year while we build a good situation to develop the next quarterback. And if somehow he turns it around, great, but more than likely we move on. 

Either way, we're not forcing a move that doesn't need to be made this year because of BYU Pennington and Ohio State Darnold 2.0. 

[slimjasi]

3 hours ago, genot said:

I get the feeling that the Darnold detractors, no matter what the facts are, would be the ones to take their shirt off in freezing temps with Darnold sucks, painted on thier chest.

Lol, but all of the “facts” (such as, for example, individual passing metrics) support the conclusion that Sam isn’t a very good NFL QB. 

”I think Sam would be a good NFL QB in a better situation“ isn’t a fact

[Philc1]

Mahomes throwing to Chris Hogan and Chris Herndon, no pass protection and Frank Gore/Leveon Bell 3 yards and dust garbage with Gase calling the plays

[Philc1]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

This is a perfect take.  Mahomes would be a top 5 QB anywhere.  

No Hill, Kelce and a crap Oline and Gase calling screens all day the defense sniffed out 

TOP 5 BABY!!!!

[genot]

9 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Lol, but all of the “facts” (such as, for example, individual passing metrics) support the conclusion that Sam isn’t a very good NFL QB. 

”I think Sam would be a good NFL QB in a better situation“ isn’t a fact

Hows the Jet's o-line. Sucks. How are the Jet's at WR. Need help, bad. How has the Jet's running game bean, the last three years. It sucked. Do you like Gase and his scheme and olay calling. Gase is the worst. Needs to be fired. Is Gase a good communicator. He sucks. Doesn't communicate with anyone. Does any of this matter. No. Darnold sucks. Get my point.