Rashod Bateman autopsy (+Elijah Moore)

[Paradis]

Watch this game and walks me through your thoughts. I have some strong feelings about Rashod, and this game has it all. poor route running, slow, below average hands, limited athleticism and is a total no show outside. He’s basically surviving off inside slot digs and slants. Tyler Boyd but without the smooth prowess that makes Boyd tough to cover. N’Keal Harry level question marks  

Might make my top 10. Round 4 grade  

convince me otherwise  

 

 

[sec101row23]

Based on where I see Bateman being projected I’m not a fan.  I’d take Terrance Marshall everyday over Bateman.  

[derp]

His lack of athleticism was striking when I first watched him. With the Joe Douglas “speed creates pressure, pressure bursts pipes” mantra I wrote him off pretty quickly and didn’t focus on the other stuff.

The bigger slow guys often project better than they were drafted when they fall to the second after running 4.55, but there’s a degree of ability to separate either with suddenness and quick feet in short areas or at the catch point with length and ability to catch away from the body that you need to pull that off. I presumed Bateman had that because everyone was pumping him up but again, never really dug deeper. With his lack of explosiveness I figured best case would be he’d be a big slot. Maybe a team like Detroit takes him in the second or third if Campbell is bringing the New Orleans system they want to take a low risk shot at recreating the Michael Thomas role.

I have no idea whatsoever who the primary target in the Jets’ passing game will be. I kind of doubt it’s coming from the draft unless they move to a range they know they’re getting Smith, Pitts, or Chase and so as much as I like a guy like Marshall if there’s no fit for him as a primary target he’s not going to be a secondary make plays with the ball in his hands option and I don’t think he fits.

Best of both worlds - passing game double down after bringing in a target monster in FA but who could also become a target monster - would be someone like Rondale Moore. Toney could fit the bill but he’s got a lot of momentum as a prospect right now and probably goes higher than I’d like to take him. Maybe Felton in the mid rounds. But I feel like that’s the route the Jets are going if they take a WR.

[Jetsfan80]

Jesus I thought he died.  Wtf with this thread title Paradis.  lol.

[Jets Voice of Reason]

Yeah, that's not a good look. Too many legit WR prospects to really go after a guy like this in a late first-early 2nd type of pick. I was intrigued by the size, but he seems like a project.

[Paradis]

54 minutes ago, derp said:

 

I have no idea whatsoever who the primary target in the Jets’ passing game will be. I kind of doubt it’s coming from the draft unless they move to a range they know they’re getting Smith, Pitts, or Chase and so as much as I like a guy like Marshall if there’s no fit for him as a primary target he’s not going to be a secondary make plays with the ball in his hands option and I don’t think he fits.

Best of both worlds - passing game double down after bringing in a target monster in FA but who could also become a target monster - would be someone like Rondale Moore. Toney could fit the bill but he’s got a lot of momentum as a prospect right now and probably goes higher than I’d like to take him. Maybe Felton in the mid rounds. But I feel like that’s the route the Jets are going if they take a WR.

My first blush assessment of Marshall is he can do it all. Give him a year practicing in the NFL, and we could have a Marshall and Alshon like combo with Mims and Marshall. 

moore is also a sexy pick. Different skill set but also alluring. 

[derp]

11 minutes ago, Paradis said:

My first blush assessment of Marshall is he can do it all. Give him a year practicing in the NFL, and we could have a Marshall and Alshon like combo with Mims and Marshall. 

moore is also a sexy pick. Different skill set but also alluring. 

I agree regarding Marshall’s skill set, I just think this offseason is going to be annoying from an offense construction standpoint and am bracing myself accordingly.

I don’t think a Marshall-Jeffrey type combo is what the Shanahan offense is hoping for. I think it’s one *the dude* - which is likely a FA, could be Mims, and then some guys who can play with the ball in their hands to hold defenders with action to help out in the run game and then keep the field spaced vertically and horizontally as secondary guys. That’s very clearly been the SF MO.

I think it’ll be annoying to be that rigid in the draft - weird WR fits, tight ends need to block, I think it’s non-trivial they take a fullback in the fifth or later. The benefit is it hopefully means a sustainable system with some production from smaller investments instead of just piecing together talent. But I think some of the draft decisions are going to be frustrating and they’re going to pass on some quality guys in the name of fit and roster construction.

Hope I’m wrong.

[Jets Voice of Reason]

1 hour ago, Paradis said:

My first blush assessment of Marshall is he can do it all. Give him a year practicing in the NFL, and we could have a Marshall and Alshon like combo with Mims and Marshall. 

moore is also a sexy pick. Different skill set but also alluring. 

I know you’re talking about Rondale, but I also like Elijah Moore as well. Just a lot of good day 2 candidates that are going to be available. 

[Paradis]

7 hours ago, Jets Voice of Reason said:

I know you’re talking about Rondale, but I also like Elijah Moore as well. Just a lot of good day 2 candidates that are going to be available. 

OK... Moore it is. I admit to spending little time on him - and by that i mean none. Just what i saw at half time shows on saturday afternoon. 

[Paradis]

1 hour ago, Jets Voice of Reason said:

I know you’re talking about Rondale, but I also like Elijah Moore as well. Just a lot of good day 2 candidates that are going to be available. 

I think i might push for day 3 for E. Moore... not sure what the attraction is besides being a bit of firecracker with the ball in his hands.

I watched Florida and Alabama -- 90% of the balls he caught in the Gator game were slants and 10 or 15 yard posts (zero exaggeration).... Basically the QB relied on those windows past the Will or Sam - or to outrun the DB.. take away the dummy jetsweeps and screens -- he ran nothing outside. No digs, not outs no corners... no manipulating the DB... Not to say he couldn't learn but.. yea..  

He wasn't even in the bama game. he got stuffed like an Olive on anything not a gimme flat/slant; routinely not able to get off his man, and in one case he had to push off on a single coverage on a seam route cause he couldn't get separation -- and got called for it. Bama's secondary and linebackers played closer, more man and tighter coverage. Took Elijah out of the game with those 2 gravy plays he bled Florida with... only balls he caught was when Bama let him - keeping everything undernearth. 

round 5? Maybe. 

 

 

[jetsons]

6 hours ago, sec101row23 said:

Based on where I see Bateman being projected I’m not a fan.  I’d take Terrance Marshall everyday over Bateman.  

and I wouldn't take either where they're projected. 

[Paradis]

3 hours ago, Jets Voice of Reason said:

I know you’re talking about Rondale, but I also like Elijah Moore as well. Just a lot of good day 2 candidates that are going to be available. 

I don’t mean to shut you down. If you like him, you follow your gut. What is it you like about him?

[Paradis]

55 minutes ago, jetsons said:

and I wouldn't take either where they're projected. 

Really. Where’s Marshall projected exactly, so consistently, that you wouldn’t take him. What mocks or boards are you referring to? Enlighten me. 

[Jets Voice of Reason]

16 minutes ago, Paradis said:

I don’t mean to shut you down. If you like him, you follow your gut. What is it you like about him?

I agree about the limitations of the route tree and he’s small, so could get jammed pretty bad at the next level, but I think he could still project into being a decent route runner as a project type since he executes well on the routes he does run. 

He was productive overall and I could see him being a good YAC guy with his shiftiness, which seems more of a priority in this offense we’re going to run. I didn’t look into drops or anything, but he looks like he’s got decent hands as well. 

[win4ever]

On Bateman because I do like him in that second rd pick range.  

1.  This is assuming he runs in the 4.4, because I've read anywhere between 4.4 and 4.5, so I would love to see the agility numbers.  For example, I didn't expect Justin Jefferson to show off the speed.  

2.  I love his route stems, which I'm a sucker for, because I think his ability to create separation on his breaks is impressive.  

3.  His release needs work, and looks slow because he takes a mini step with his back foot at the snap.  Instead of being in position to go, he does a mini hop at the line of scrimmage at times, which limits his explosiveness.  It creates some room for horizontal movement, but the depth of that step is useless most times.  Unfortunately, I see the entire receiving core doing it at times.  It works if you mix it in every now and then, because the whole point is to freeze the DB for a millisecond, but it doesn't work if you do it 90% of the time.  

4.  I like his footwork to set up breaks, and how he attacks the hips of the defender.  I'll put up a few gifs later to point it out, but he understands attacking angles towards the defender, before making his break.  Instead of a straight route, he will attack the outside hip of a CB who has outside leverage, only to cut slightly inside, before an in-breaking route.  

5.  While he has drops, also seems to make some tough catches.  

I think he has a ton of riding on the pro-day circuit, and I'm not 100% he fits our system right now with Mims already on the team.  However, as a prospect I think he has a chance to be a stud.  

[maury77]

9 hours ago, Paradis said:

Watch this game and walks me through your thoughts. I have some strong feelings about Rashod, and this game has it all. poor route running, slow, below average hands, limited athleticism and is a total no show outside. He’s basically surviving off inside slot digs and slants. Tyler Boyd but without the smooth prowess that makes Boyd tough to cover. N’Keal Harry level question marks  

Might make my top 10. Round 4 grade  

convince me otherwise  

 

 

I think he's better than you are giving him credit for. He's not physically impressive. Looks about 6' or 6'1" and he's not a burner. Not a YAC machine either and he shies away from contact a little bit over the middle, but I can see the Keenan Allen comparisons. I like the way he attacks the defender's leverage before he breaks and, as @win4ever stated, Bateman does some really nice work at the stem of the route. He does nice little shuffle then explodes out of the break. 

[maury77]

38 minutes ago, win4ever said:

On Bateman because I do like him in that second rd pick range.  

1.  This is assuming he runs in the 4.4, because I've read anywhere between 4.4 and 4.5, so I would love to see the agility numbers.  For example, I didn't expect Justin Jefferson to show off the speed.  

2.  I love his route stems, which I'm a sucker for, because I think his ability to create separation on his breaks is impressive.  

3.  His release needs work, and looks slow because he takes a mini step with his back foot at the snap.  Instead of being in position to go, he does a mini hop at the line of scrimmage at times, which limits his explosiveness.  It creates some room for horizontal movement, but the depth of that step is useless most times.  Unfortunately, I see the entire receiving core doing it at times.  It works if you mix it in every now and then, because the whole point is to freeze the DB for a millisecond, but it doesn't work if you do it 90% of the time.  

4.  I like his footwork to set up breaks, and how he attacks the hips of the defender.  I'll put up a few gifs later to point it out, but he understands attacking angles towards the defender, before making his break.  Instead of a straight route, he will attack the outside hip of a CB who has outside leverage, only to cut slightly inside, before an in-breaking route.  

5.  While he has drops, also seems to make some tough catches.  

I think he has a ton of riding on the pro-day circuit, and I'm not 100% he fits our system right now with Mims already on the team.  However, as a prospect I think he has a chance to be a stud.  

The only thing I disagree with here is the toughness comment. It looks like he alligator armed a couple of those throws over the middle. 

[maury77]

4 hours ago, Paradis said:

I think i might push for day 3 for E. Moore... not sure what the attraction is besides being a bit of firecracker with the ball in his hands.

I watched Florida and Alabama -- 90% of the balls he caught in the Gator game were slants and 10 or 15 yard posts (zero exaggeration).... Basically the QB relied on those windows past the Will or Sam - or to outrun the DB.. take away the dummy jetsweeps and screens -- he ran nothing outside. No digs, not outs no corners... no manipulating the DB... Not to say he couldn't learn but.. yea..  

He wasn't even in the bama game. he got stuffed like an Olive on anything not a gimme flat/slant; routinely not able to get off his man, and in one case he had to push off on a single coverage on a seam route cause he couldn't get separation -- and got called for it. Bama's secondary and linebackers played closer, more man and tighter coverage. Took Elijah out of the game with those 2 gravy plays he bled Florida with... only balls he caught was when Bama let him - keeping everything undernearth. 

round 5? Maybe. 

 

 

Wooof. Moore is fast, but man, he makes Robby Anderson look like Pete Rose in comparison. Moore really loafs out there when the ball isn't coming his way. 

[win4ever]

2 hours ago, maury77 said:

I think he's better than you are giving him credit for. He's not physically impressive. Looks about 6' or 6'1" and he's not a burner. Not a YAC machine either and he shies away from contact a little bit over the middle, but I can see the Keenan Allen comparisons. I like the way he attacks the defender's leverage before he breaks and, as @win4ever stated, Bateman does some really nice work at the stem of the route. He does nice little shuffle then explodes out of the break. 

Right, I want to go a bit more in-depth on the stems:

The play here is a long TD, and the thing I find most interesting is his stem on the route.  He's at the top of the screen.  At first, you'll notice that annoying false step he does off the line.  However, watch the point from when he goes from fake blocking to route.  His first step is slanted to the outside, even though he's running a post.  The CB's hips get absolutely twisted to the point that he loses his footing, allowing for an easy completion.  

Clip 2, He's at the bottom of the screen. The footwork off the line gets the CB down again.  Once again, false step to start.  If this was actually a longer route, he's absolutely gone.  

Clip 3, he's at the top of the screen.  He has a subtle jab to the inside before cutting it to the outside, and you can see the CB slightly slide inside, leaving ample room for a pass.  

He's not perfect, but I like to see his testing numbers.  If he runs fast enough, I think he could be a very nice receiver.  

 

[redlichtie]

Good thread @Paradis and this is what the draft forum is really for, throwing around those opinions and informed discussion of merits...good and bad.

first off, agreed that’s not his best film and I actually don’t think he was nearly as impressive in 2020 than in both 18 and 19. He initially opted out then re-instated when the big 10 decided to play the season, albeit truncated, whether he was properly fit or prepared to play hard in 20 I’m not sure....not an excuse, Just an observation, and some would argue that’s a red flag. Personally I’d give credit to any player for deciding to suit up in 20 at all and would understand them not having their best season as a result. Couple of those throws In that game that looked like drops were either thrown behind him or tipped.

thanks to both @win4ever and @maury77 for their spirited defenses and follow up case for the defence ....call it “the case for resuscitation!” 

I especially like the Keenan Allen comparison, would be a good college comp whether he translates as well to the NFL remains to be seen.

I’m actually somewhat surprised to hear Bateman talked about as a late first or early 2nd....I like him but I’ve only ever been thinking in terms of good value and a guy who’ll develop initially as a number 4 option but with good upside. I was thinking mid to late 3rd, if he tested way better than expected then perhaps he pushes into the early part of round 3 or maybe even sneaks into late 2.....equally he could drop into the 4th or even 5th....at that point he’s terrific value in my opinion.

at this point I’d like to present evidence in mitigation by embedding a couple of his games from 2019 but admit my technical savvy may not be up to scratch. First off I think he has some technical glitches to iron out in his route running and he’s not the most sudden in his breaks, he occasionally seems to round out a route but despite that he just always seems to get open. He’ll need some coaching up as a pro but these are fixable issues. More importantly I like that he’s a willing blocker and has produced form day 1 as a freshman. 2’34” below against Purdue is just a great example of what he is capable of, clean(ish) release, tight route, crisp cut, good hands catch, toughness to fend off and acceleration away for the score. Also love the hands and concentration on the tough contested catch at 3’53”

plenty of examples against Auburn & Penn State of tough catches, willingness to block and go across the middle. I still think that while he’s not the quickest or most ‘sudden’ of athletes he’s plenty fast enough to get open, be shifty after the catch and get deep.

i still like him but as your OP made clear he’s going to need some development but I absolutely think he’s one of those guys who turns into a very good player in the NFL. If he’s available in the late 3rd, and dependant on who we’ve already added and who else is available,  I absolutely consider him
 

 

[Chrebetfan80]

18 hours ago, Paradis said:

Watch this game and walks me through your thoughts. I have some strong feelings about Rashod, and this game has it all. poor route running, slow, below average hands, limited athleticism and is a total no show outside. He’s basically surviving off inside slot digs and slants. Tyler Boyd but without the smooth prowess that makes Boyd tough to cover. N’Keal Harry level question marks  

Might make my top 10. Round 4 grade  

convince me otherwise  

 

 

Don't hate him, and don't love him.  To me from this clip, and I havent watched much of him honestly,  he doesnt challenge corners or LB's with his stems and his feet arent quick enough to do any really great stem release moves against good corners. Off the line there doesnt seem to be a repertoire of moves.  Maybe its what they teach there, but I dont see him pushing DB's leverage with his stems and steps as much as other guys are seeing it.  

 

[Chrebetfan80]

I think what others here are saying is accurate, but its an interesting conversation to have when discussing which style of WR's we'll look for. 

 

I think we all believe they will look to add YAC ability from anyone they draft, because it fits the model of what SF looks for (Deebo, Aiuyk). But when you look at GB and the WR's his brother has there, a lot of bigger bodied guys with long speed (and of course adams who can do pretty much anything).  All those guys are 6'1 (adams) or taller (Lazard 6'5, Scantling 6'4).  We already have 1 player in that mold with Mims, I think at least one YAC guy will be added, but you can make a case that it wont be the only style of player we look at in this draft as the offenses Lafluer is close to use both styles. 

[Paradis]

Now we cookin'... this is the discourse i come for. Will take me a bit to give each of these replies their due.... Bateman sure has his fan club. Should be interesting.

[Paradis]

12 hours ago, maury77 said:

I think he's better than you are giving him credit for. He's not physically impressive. Looks about 6' or 6'1" and he's not a burner. Not a YAC machine either and he shies away from contact a little bit over the middle, but I can see the Keenan Allen comparisons. I like the way he attacks the defender's leverage before he breaks and, as @win4ever stated, Bateman does some really nice work at the stem of the route. He does nice little shuffle then explodes out of the break. 

Probably some truth to that - I have a (bad) habit of over blowing weak spots and concerns. When I fall out of love when someone - I throw them away like a parking ticket... I'll give him a 3rd honest look, but I feel like you guys are seeing things that aren't there. Take the name off the jersey, and you'd be talking about a possession guy who might not be able to do more than work from the slot. Day 3 grade type. 

[#27TheDominator]

That Iowa game was rough.  Looking at the start of that game he looks pretty bad.  I hate that rocking backwards step at the snap that win4ever is talking about.  Always a battle to get our kids to stop doing it.  Tried making them practice leaving with their back against the wall.  Putting blocks behind their feet whatever.   All of Minnesota's receivers seemed to keep their back leg too deep to me, so that is probably by design.  He looks way better in some of the other clips.

[sec101row23]

13 hours ago, maury77 said:

I think he's better than you are giving him credit for. He's not physically impressive. Looks about 6' or 6'1" and he's not a burner. Not a YAC machine either and he shies away from contact a little bit over the middle, but I can see the Keenan Allen comparisons. I like the way he attacks the defender's leverage before he breaks and, as @win4ever stated, Bateman does some really nice work at the stem of the route. He does nice little shuffle then explodes out of the break. 

For me, Keenan Allen is the poster child for what a supreme route runner should like in college.  His college tape should be the standard by which all is compared.  If we are talking pick 34 then I think Marshall would be better.  Marshall can do it all IMO, offers a little more versatility.  

[Chrebetfan80]

Yea Idk I just watched some more and I come away with the same impressions.  I dont think its out of the question he can be a good player.  Feet just look slow to me on breaks (takes to long on his stutter hesi move, and his hips dont give a violent enough drop on breaks), I dont see that suddenness on film that I think you need to have to thrive in the slot consistently or to win on the outside.  he uses the same move this stutter hesi to try to win at the break point and it just takes too long, he has to slow down to a complete stop almost to stutter. Not saying it has to be at 100mph but it just feels slower and more bland than guys that have that move in their toolbox.  If i could post clips i would, i have no idea how to do a lot of that cutting edge tech stuff despite my age and masters in technology lol 

I will say this though, if you look at some film from last year and from this year there is a difference. While the same flaw is there in the moves and the lack of a violent hip shift/drop in his breaks (from the film ive watched so someone could prove me wrong), last year's film that ive seen I see a more explosive player.  I dont know what the story is why this year he looks slow and last year more explosive, but maybe someone could give an indication on that. 

[section314]

2 hours ago, Paradis said:

Now we cookin'... this is the discourse i come for. Will take me a bit to give each of these replies their due.... Bateman sure has his fan club. Should be interesting.

Great flick. Love the line when the guy says of Matthew's character...'we were in 2nd grade when that guy graduated H.S."?

[Paradis]

I’ll get back to these later but I’m watching the auburn game from 2019... no way this guy survives on the outside. He can’t separate for more than half second before the DB catches up - no matter the move at the LOS. He’s chased down right away. He whole college career is slot posts and broken coverages thus far. It’s like Tyler Johnson all over again. 

[RedBeardedSavage]

I don't know sh*t about Bateman, so I'll keep this short about Elijah Moore. 

Does collegiate route tree matter as much if you're dangerous after the catch? Genuine question. I remember Aiyuk's route tree being limited, anyone know about Deebo Samuel's? 

Rondale Moore btw is a beast but he's basically been injured his entire collegiate career, so I've got no idea how to value that and maybe you just let that be someone else's problem. 

[maury77]

3 hours ago, sec101row23 said:

For me, Keenan Allen is the poster child for what a supreme route runner should like in college.  His college tape should be the standard by which all is compared.  If we are talking pick 34 then I think Marshall would be better.  Marshall can do it all IMO, offers a little more versatility.  

Well, Keenan Allen did go in the 3rd round, so that is probably a good spot to target Bateman as well (Allen did run in the 4.7s I believe)

[redlichtie]

4 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

That Iowa game was rough.  Looking at the start of that game he looks pretty bad.  I hate that rocking backwards step at the snap that win4ever is talking about.  Always a battle to get our kids to stop doing it.  Tried making them practice leaving with their back against the wall.  Putting blocks behind their feet whatever.   All of Minnesota's receivers seemed to keep their back leg too deep to me, so that is probably by design.  He looks way better in some of the other clips.

Really interesting observation. I was wondering about that pre-snap stance and the fact his back leg is soo deep, it gives him too wide a base and therefor less ‘purchase’ with his front foot to explode off with. Glad someone else pointed it out....again that should be coachable at ten pro level?....surely that’s what a guy like Miles Austin is for?

[redlichtie]

2 hours ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

Yea Idk I just watched some more and I come away with the same impressions.  I dont think its out of the question he can be a good player.  Feet just look slow to me on breaks (takes to long on his stutter hesi move, and his hips dont give a violent enough drop on breaks), I dont see that suddenness on film that I think you need to have to thrive in the slot consistently or to win on the outside.  he uses the same move this stutter hesi to try to win at the break point and it just takes too long, he has to slow down to a complete stop almost to stutter. Not saying it has to be at 100mph but it just feels slower and more bland than guys that have that move in their toolbox.  If i could post clips i would, i have no idea how to do a lot of that cutting edge tech stuff despite my age and masters in technology lol 

I will say this though, if you look at some film from last year and from this year there is a difference. While the same flaw is there in the moves and the lack of a violent hip shift/drop in his breaks (from the film ive watched so someone could prove me wrong), last year's film that ive seen I see a more explosive player.  I dont know what the story is why this year he looks slow and last year more explosive, but maybe someone could give an indication on that. 

Just to your point about the difference between 19 and 20.....I mentioned in my post earlier that he initially opted out for 2020 but then changed his mind when the big 10 belatedly opted to play a truncated season. It can’t have helped to have mentally checked out on the year only to then restart while the season is in full swing, He might have tried to stay in shape but I’m not sure how easy it is to do so under the unique circumstances of last year and he likely didn’t have much time to get into game shape once the decision was made to go.....I’m not sure he was fully fit or conditioned and clearly not up to game speed and they only played I think 5 or 6 games so there wasn’t the chance to play yourself into late season form.
Not an excuse but perhaps explains him being off the pace in 20 and not as impressive as he was previously.

 

[sec101row23]

20 minutes ago, maury77 said:

Well, Keenan Allen did go in the 3rd round, so that is probably a good spot to target Bateman as well (Allen did run in the 4.7s I believe)

Keenan’s 40 time is a bit of folklore, he ran at his pro day while still recovering from his knee injury.  I think people over reacted a bit causing him to slip in the draft.  He was more of a 4.57 type of guy though.  He’s just a natural receiver.  

[jetsons]

21 hours ago, Paradis said:

Really. Where’s Marshall projected exactly, so consistently, that you wouldn’t take him. What mocks or boards are you referring to? Enlighten me. 

really??? ?