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2 minutes ago, neckdemon said:

joe flacco won 0 games. darnold beat 2 pretty good teams who needed to win.

oh wow

Joe Flacco visibly didn't want to be on the field.  Darnold was attempting to prove he deserved a 5th-year option worth about $25M.  The fact that it was even CLOSE between them is sad and pathetic on Darnold's part.

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Tom Brady says hello.

If they keep Darnold he could join Becton and Sewell but not at # 2. In that scenario the Jets are trading down. Sewell isn't going at 2, so it depends on how far down the Jets trade.  That would be a

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3 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Oh, I agree with you.  What the Jets did to him was absolutely disgraceful.  

But he clearly regressed here and, IMO needs a change a scenery

But more importantly my main contention isn't so much that Sam can't turn it around but just that there's no way JD's going to keep him.  Under the circumstance It's a large an unnecessary risk for him to take.

i guess i just see it differently. the way i see it is when you have the 2nd pick you need to hit and hit big. not take a chance on an iffy qb who can derail the whole thing and get you fired. i think JD will want to build the best team possible (which may possibly include signing a qb to compete with darnold) around the qb and then decide what to do next year at qb if whoever is here didn't play up to the level he should have. 

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4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

oh wow

Joe Flacco visibly didn't want to be on the field.  Darnold was attempting to prove he deserved a 5th-year option worth about $25M.  The fact that it was even CLOSE between them is sad and pathetic on Darnold's part.

visibly didn't want to be on the field.....lol. i hate to break it to you but you put mahomes on this team and he spends most of the season looking like he did in the superbowl. this team is not good. our skill positions players are not good. our o-line was total crap. matter of fact i contend that mahomes quite likely would have gotten hurt and missed more games than darnold did. 

 

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Just now, neckdemon said:

visibly didn't want to be on the field.....lol. i hate to break it to you but you put mahomes on this team and he spends most of the season looking like he did in the superbowl. this team is not good. our skill positions players are not good. our o-line was total crap. matter of fact i content that mahomes quite likely would have gotten hurt and missed more games than darnold did. 

So by your logic there's not much difference between Darnold and Mahomes.  You're one of those people.  

You have no answer to the Flacco argument so you suggest Darnold couldn't possible produce at an acceptable level.  Even though Flacco did.  Makes sense!

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3 minutes ago, neckdemon said:

i guess i just see it differently. the way i see it is when you have the 2nd pick you need to hit and hit big. not take a chance on an iffy qb who can derail the whole thing and get you fired. i think JD will want to build the best team possible (which may possibly include signing a qb to compete with darnold) around the qb and then decide what to do next year at qb if whoever is here didn't play up to the level he should have. 

Well, I'm also quite a bit higher on Wilson than you.  I believe Wilson will ultimately prove to a higher rated prospect than Sam was.  

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2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

So by your logic there's not much difference between Darnold and Mahomes.  You're one of those people.  

You have no answer to the Flacco argument so you suggest Darnold couldn't possible produce at an acceptable level.  Even though Flacco did.  Makes sense!

no, not what i'm saying. i'm saying even an mvp qb couldn't have done much of anything on this team.

but somehow you are suggesting that flacco going 0-4 was acceptable production?? lol. he had one game where he was over 55% completion. he had 1 good game, vs a sh*t 2-5 patriots team, where he played well, but still couldn't generate a win. that's acceptable production? lol

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3 minutes ago, neckdemon said:

no, not what i'm saying. i'm saying even an mvp qb couldn't have done much of anything on this team.

but somehow you are suggesting that flacco going 0-4 was acceptable production?? lol. he had one game where he was over 55% completion. he had 1 good game, vs a sh*t 2-5 patriots team, where he played well, but still couldn't generate a win. that's acceptable production? lol

Yes, I am, because he played better than Darnold did.  Every DarnoldBro wants to make it a team sport when defending Darnold, but when Flacco loses it was all on him.  OK then.  

But sure, let's go with the W-L record argument then.  Darnold is 13-25 as a starter in the NFL.  He sucks.  End of argument.

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7 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yes, I am, because he played better than Darnold did.  Everyone wants to make it a team sport when defending Darnold, but when Flacco loses it was all on him.  OK then.  

your definition of acceptable play makes it hard to take anything you are saying seriously. but i don't blame flacco either.....the team around him was sh*t also

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Just now, neckdemon said:

your definition of acceptable play makes it hard to take anything you are saying seriously

Well I thought it was pretty clear and not necessary to explain, but I guess I was wrong!  Darnold produced worse than every starter and several backups in the NFL last year.  Struggling to get to 200 yards nearly every game is unacceptable QB play in 2021.  Playing worse than 35-year old Joe Flacco, in the same exact set of circumstances, is unacceptable play. 

An improved Darnold with Pro Bowlers all around him will likely take his production from QB36 to about QB28.  Sounds awesome and totally worth everyone's time.

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2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Well I thought it was pretty clear and not necessary to explain, but I guess I was wrong!  Darnold produced worse than every starter and several backups in the NFL last year.  Struggling to get to 200 yards nearly every game is unacceptable QB play in 2021.  Playing worse than 35-year old Joe Flacco, in the same exact set of circumstances, is unacceptable play. 

An improved Darnold with Pro Bowlers all around him will likely take his production from QB36 to about QB28.  Sounds awesome and totally worth everyone's time.

except he didn't play worse. he won 2 games against 2 teams. so what you are saying isn't correct. 

the fact is that flacco and darnold both had bad seasons on a sh*t team. darnold won 2 games vs good teams that were trying to win, so he had a better season since flacco won 0 games. anything else you say is just biased due to your opinion of darnold.

for the record, i am not saying darnold will ever be a great or even consistently good ab. but i do know that for the last 8 or 9 games of last season he was pretty good, so he has shown the potential to be a good player. 

you prediction of how darnold can play isn't based on any facts or evidence at all. idk what his ranking was for the 2nd half of last season but i'd bet it was higher than QB28

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8 minutes ago, neckdemon said:

except he didn't play worse. he won 2 games against 2 teams. so what you are saying isn't correct. 

the fact is that flacco and darnold both had bad seasons on a sh*t team. darnold won 2 games vs good teams that were trying to win, so he had a better season since flacco won 0 games. anything else you say is just biased due to your opinion of darnold.

for the record, i am not saying darnold will ever be a great or even consistently good ab. but i do know that for the last 8 or 9 games of last season he was pretty good, so he has shown the potential to be a good player. 

you prediction of how darnold can play isn't based on any facts or evidence at all. idk what his ranking was for the 2nd half of last season but i'd bet it was higher than QB28

 

Statistically, Flacco performed better.  I don't care about W-L.  Darnold went 2-10.  Flacco went 0-2.  The team sucked.  Both QB's sucked.  Flacco just sucked less, which is sad.  And this idea that it was impossible to play well under those circumstances is flawed.  Darnold just sucks as much as the team did.  He wasn't separate from the problem.  He was very much a big part of the problem.  

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1 hour ago, section314 said:

Maybe, just maybe, JD really likes Fant and believes that he will be a big part of the OLine going forward?

I don't see why, other than a refusal to admit he made the wrong choice between Fant, a RT UFA that just got his second 1st team All Pro vote, and just bringing back Beachum (for as good or better production). 

My guess is he figured at least one of these guys to be decisively deserve a starting job next year: Fant, Van Roten, Lewis, Edoga, or a rookie/udfa (ended up being Clark). Fant is merely the best of the bunch. Or if you've seen Sixteen Candles, he's our King of the Dipshits

Fant wasn't as bad as some say, but his main value - at the time - was he could fill in at LT if a rookie wasn't ready from day one. He was a hedge pickup, not a home run pickup. Not even a double, considering Beachum signed with Arizona for 1/10 what he's paying Fant. 

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15 hours ago, Philc1 said:

LT: Becton

LG: Thuney

C McGovern

RG: Van Roten

RT: Sewell

Best OL in the league 

I like it.  I'd go one step further and push McGovern to guard, Van Roten to backup and draft Josh Meyers in the 3rd.

 

LT: Becton

LG: Thuney

C  Meyers

RG: McGovern

RT: Sewell

 

 

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5 hours ago, section314 said:

Maybe, just maybe, JD really likes Fant and believes that he will be a big part of the OLine going forward?

I don’t know much but connor rogers has said he thinks Fant will be great in this new offensive scheme.  Take it for what it’s worth I guess.  

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3 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I don't see why, other than a refusal to admit he made the wrong choice between Fant, a RT UFA that just got his second 1st team All Pro vote, and just bringing back Beachum (for as good or better production). 

My guess is he figured at least one of these guys to be decisively deserve a starting job next year: Fant, Van Roten, Lewis, Edoga, or a rookie/udfa (ended up being Clark). Fant is merely the best of the bunch. Or if you've seen Sixteen Candles, he's our King of the Dipsh*ts

Fant wasn't as bad as some say, but his main value - at the time - was he could fill in at LT if a rookie wasn't ready from day one. He was a hedge pickup, not a home run pickup. Not even a double, considering Beachum signed with Arizona for 1/10 what he's paying Fant. 

Fant was basically signed to a 1 year deal. I don’t think they would have any problem cutting him if a better option is available. 

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7 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Well I thought it was pretty clear and not necessary to explain, but I guess I was wrong!  Darnold produced worse than every starter and several backups in the NFL last year.  Struggling to get to 200 yards nearly every game is unacceptable QB play in 2021.  Playing worse than 35-year old Joe Flacco, in the same exact set of circumstances, is unacceptable play. 

An improved Darnold with Pro Bowlers all around him will likely take his production from QB36 to about QB28.  Sounds awesome and totally worth everyone's time.

Um look at the playcalling...fix that and he is middle of pack ...with nothing else..

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3 hours ago, sirlancemehlot said:

I like it.  I'd go one step further and push McGovern to guard, Van Roten to backup and draft Josh Meyers in the 3rd.

 

LT: Becton

LG: Thuney

C  Meyers

RG: McGovern

RT: Sewell

 

 

Re-raise:

Becton

Thuney

Linsley

McGovern

Sewell

 

george costanza finger point GIF by HULU

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18 hours ago, 32EBoozer said:

I just can’t see the Jets going offense of line in the first round in back to back years. We have just so many other areas to address. On top of that do you really want three years from now having decide whether to pick up a fifth year option in back to back years on the lineman? And do you want to have to sign a left tackle and right tackle in back to back years to a new huge extension?

Yes, pretty sure that would mean they are pretty good.  The 5th year option that is.  

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9 hours ago, chad2coles said:

Fant was basically signed to a 1 year deal. I don’t think they would have any problem cutting him if a better option is available. 

They have to find that better option by mid-March or more than half his guaranteed (which then more or less makes his 2nd season guaranteed).

Regardless, Fant was a hedge pickup (because in theory he could play either tackle position) with fingers crossed that he's worth keeping on the line for more than 1 season. It was a stupid stupid stupid contract any way it's sliced when you look at how things unfolded with Ifedi + Beachum + Conklin. 

- In 2019 Ifedi beat Fant out for the starting RT job in a head-to-head camp competition, and kept it over him all season long. Ifedi got a contract for the veteran minimum in 2020 a week after his backup, Fant, got 9x that amount (and his cap hit is 10x that). 

- Beachum. Very much known to this team, this coaching staff, this everything, and with far more experience as a starting LT, was not even made an offer. He signed with Arizona and started 16 games as their RT. In a pinch he could have played LT at least as easily and adequately as Fant if a rookie wasn't deemed ready. Like Ifedi, his contract is also 1/10 the cap hit of what the Jets are paying Fant.

- Conklin was rumor-linked to the Jets as the obvious destination. One of the game's better RTs, then still just 25, it was expected that the Jets were so desperate that they'd pay the expected $18MM/yr for Conklin (with rumors floating it could reach $19MM per, because of the recent Lane Johnson contract and the Douglas/Philly ties. Then Cleveland's offer topped out at just $13MM with Douglas declining to make any offer at all, instead opting for a bad OL's backup/swing/hybrid-TE tackle, that maybe 7 people outside Seattle heard of. 

Despite never winning a starting job over anyone, Fant was given a $9MM/year deal. Other than his missed 2017 season, which he'd have begun as Seattle's starter, Fant's been a backup for the two years since, getting starts at tackle only when a starter was injured, and getting nominal "starts" as a 6th lineman lining up as a TE in between that. Get that? He was unable to win a starting job, on a team that had such poor blocking from those starters that they needed to line up 6 guys. And based on that body of work, Douglas gave him annual money on par with or in excess of players with multiple years of experience earning the job as their teams' starting tackles (Leno, Vaitai, Schwartz, Havenstein, Bulaga, Moses, Cannon, Ifedi, Beachum, and more).  

The moves for a good GM, with plenty of cap room and no tackles on the roster, was to match/exceed the offers for Conklin and re-sign Beachum at that backup money. Then still draft a tackle a month later, and in Beachum he'd have as solid tackle depth as there is in the league. That's how a forward-thinking GM would have hedged prior to the draft; not rushing to pay through the nose for Germain Ifedi's backup.

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16 hours ago, neckdemon said:

visibly didn't want to be on the field.....lol. i hate to break it to you but you put mahomes on this team and he spends most of the season looking like he did in the superbowl. this team is not good. our skill positions players are not good. our o-line was total crap. matter of fact i contend that mahomes quite likely would have gotten hurt and missed more games than darnold did. 

 

Ya right. The team was more explosive with Flacco on the field. That's a fact. 

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27 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The moves for a good GM, with plenty of cap room and no tackles on the roster, was to match/exceed the offers for Conklin and re-sign Beachum at that backup money. Then still draft a tackle a month later, and in Beachum he'd have as solid tackle depth as there is in the league. That's how a forward-thinking GM would have hedged prior to the draft; not rushing to pay through the nose for Germain Ifedi's backup.

Is there a way you can send this to JD?

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Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

Lol I do wonder if he realizes this on his own, even in hindsight.

Another reason Gase had to go. JD didn’t give him a lot to work with in 1st draft and FA. A big mulligan for JD. A few bright spots but a big “Incomplete “ in many of his picks and signings. He better step up year 2!

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2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

They have to find that better option by mid-March or more than half his guaranteed (which then more or less makes his 2nd season guaranteed).

Regardless, Fant was a hedge pickup (because in theory he could play either tackle position) with fingers crossed that he's worth keeping on the line for more than 1 season. It was a stupid stupid stupid contract any way it's sliced when you look at how things unfolded with Ifedi + Beachum + Conklin. 

- In 2019 Ifedi beat Fant out for the starting RT job in a head-to-head camp competition, and kept it over him all season long. Ifedi got a contract for the veteran minimum in 2020 a week after his backup, Fant, got 9x that amount (and his cap hit is 10x that). 

- Beachum. Very much known to this team, this coaching staff, this everything, and with far more experience as a starting LT, was not even made an offer. He signed with Arizona and started 16 games as their RT. In a pinch he could have played LT at least as easily and adequately as Fant if a rookie wasn't deemed ready. Like Ifedi, his contract is also 1/10 the cap hit of what the Jets are paying Fant.

- Conklin was rumor-linked to the Jets as the obvious destination. One of the game's better RTs, then still just 25, it was expected that the Jets were so desperate that they'd pay the expected $18MM/yr for Conklin (with rumors floating it could reach $19MM per, because of the recent Lane Johnson contract and the Douglas/Philly ties. Then Cleveland's offer topped out at just $13MM with Douglas declining to make any offer at all, instead opting for a bad OL's backup/swing/hybrid-TE tackle, that maybe 7 people outside Seattle heard of. 

Despite never winning a starting job over anyone, Fant was given a $9MM/year deal. Other than his missed 2017 season, which he'd have begun as Seattle's starter, Fant's been a backup for the two years since, getting starts at tackle only when a starter was injured, and getting nominal "starts" as a 6th lineman lining up as a TE in between that. Get that? He was unable to win a starting job, on a team that had such poor blocking from those starters that they needed to line up 6 guys. And based on that body of work, Douglas gave him annual money on par with or in excess of players with multiple years of experience earning the job as their teams' starting tackles (Leno, Vaitai, Schwartz, Havenstein, Bulaga, Moses, Cannon, Ifedi, Beachum, and more).  

The moves for a good GM, with plenty of cap room and no tackles on the roster, was to match/exceed the offers for Conklin and re-sign Beachum at that backup money. Then still draft a tackle a month later, and in Beachum he'd have as solid tackle depth as there is in the league. That's how a forward-thinking GM would have hedged prior to the draft; not rushing to pay through the nose for Germain Ifedi's backup.

At the time, I was hoping they signed Conklin as well, and that would have been the better move.  But, I can understand why Douglas valued the flexibility of Fant's deal.  I'm not saying Douglas made the right move, I just think Douglas has had 1 offseason so far and it looks like he landed a franchise LT and got great value out of Jamal Adams.  The Jets are in great position cap-wise and will have a chance to take advantage of a buyer's market to really improve the team through free agency.  This is the offseason he'll be judged on.

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7 minutes ago, chad2coles said:

At the time, I was hoping they signed Conklin as well, and that would have been the better move.  But, I can understand why Douglas valued the flexibility of Fant's deal.  I'm not saying Douglas made the right move, I just think Douglas has had 1 offseason so far and it looks like he landed a franchise LT and got great value out of Jamal Adams.  The Jets are in great position cap-wise and will have a chance to take advantage of a buyer's market to really improve the team through free agency.  This is the offseason he'll be judged on.

Meh he was spotted Jamal Adams and a team willing to surrender something crazy for him. Plus Becton and another tackle were sitting there with the team having a giant hole at tackle; a bit much praise for having a high pick in a draft with 4 premiere tackle prospects coming out. 

I'm hoping for a great, great offseason. He's got a great reputation, but I'm still waiting to see a major move that pans out, where a merely so-so GM would have screwed it up. 

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2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

They have to find that better option by mid-March or more than half his guaranteed (which then more or less makes his 2nd season guaranteed).

Regardless, Fant was a hedge pickup (because in theory he could play either tackle position) with fingers crossed that he's worth keeping on the line for more than 1 season. It was a stupid stupid stupid contract any way it's sliced when you look at how things unfolded with Ifedi + Beachum + Conklin. 

- In 2019 Ifedi beat Fant out for the starting RT job in a head-to-head camp competition, and kept it over him all season long. Ifedi got a contract for the veteran minimum in 2020 a week after his backup, Fant, got 9x that amount (and his cap hit is 10x that). 

- Beachum. Very much known to this team, this coaching staff, this everything, and with far more experience as a starting LT, was not even made an offer. He signed with Arizona and started 16 games as their RT. In a pinch he could have played LT at least as easily and adequately as Fant if a rookie wasn't deemed ready. Like Ifedi, his contract is also 1/10 the cap hit of what the Jets are paying Fant.

- Conklin was rumor-linked to the Jets as the obvious destination. One of the game's better RTs, then still just 25, it was expected that the Jets were so desperate that they'd pay the expected $18MM/yr for Conklin (with rumors floating it could reach $19MM per, because of the recent Lane Johnson contract and the Douglas/Philly ties. Then Cleveland's offer topped out at just $13MM with Douglas declining to make any offer at all, instead opting for a bad OL's backup/swing/hybrid-TE tackle, that maybe 7 people outside Seattle heard of. 

Despite never winning a starting job over anyone, Fant was given a $9MM/year deal. Other than his missed 2017 season, which he'd have begun as Seattle's starter, Fant's been a backup for the two years since, getting starts at tackle only when a starter was injured, and getting nominal "starts" as a 6th lineman lining up as a TE in between that. Get that? He was unable to win a starting job, on a team that had such poor blocking from those starters that they needed to line up 6 guys. And based on that body of work, Douglas gave him annual money on par with or in excess of players with multiple years of experience earning the job as their teams' starting tackles (Leno, Vaitai, Schwartz, Havenstein, Bulaga, Moses, Cannon, Ifedi, Beachum, and more).  

The moves for a good GM, with plenty of cap room and no tackles on the roster, was to match/exceed the offers for Conklin and re-sign Beachum at that backup money. Then still draft a tackle a month later, and in Beachum he'd have as solid tackle depth as there is in the league. That's how a forward-thinking GM would have hedged prior to the draft; not rushing to pay through the nose for Germain Ifedi's backup.

Russell Wilson wants out of Seattle because they have surrounded him with a terrible line. Maybe Seattle just has no clue how to value and build an OLine, and Fant wasn't the problem, rather the incompetence of the front office unable to judge talent was?

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2 minutes ago, section314 said:

Russell Wilson wants out of Seattle because they have surrounded him with a terrible line. Maybe Seattle just has no clue how to value and build an OLine, and Fant wasn't the problem, rather the incompetence of the front office unable to judge talent was?

Wilson's complaint wasn't limited to 2020. I was going to include that, but as it is the post was plenty long lol. Plus there are other counter-arguments about him requiring guys to hold their blocks for longer.

Fant wasn't disastrous in pass blocking in 2020, but it's not like he was particularly good either. Run blocking was even worse. I'm not seeing how he's heads & tails better than Beachum and his $887K cap hit. If the Jets had such a great clue about OL value, superior to Seattle, I'm sorry but they wouldn't be paying George Fant $9MM/year. 

Beyond that, you're talking about a lot of "ifs" and "maybes" to justify such faith in a guy whose only career season as the beginning-to-end starting tackle was with the Jets in 2020. Cable had also been able to convert at least 3 players into credible OL starters (Fant being one of them). They may not be elite, but those are examples of turning nothing into something, and then doing it again.

So I think the more likely "if" and "maybe" incompetence scenarios are in failing to acquire or keep better starters than Ifedi and these OL-converts, not an extreme failure to coach them properly.

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19 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Meh he was spotted Jamal Adams and a team willing to surrender something crazy for him. Plus Becton and another tackle were sitting there with the team having a giant hole at tackle; a bit much praise for having a high pick in a draft with 4 premiere tackle prospects coming out. 

I'm hoping for a great, great offseason. He's got a great reputation, but I'm still waiting to see a major move that pans out, where a merely so-so GM would have screwed it up. 

I think you're not giving him enough credit for how he handled the Adams situation.  That has gone badly for so many other teams, he got the most value possible out of it.  The same for the Becton pick.

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5 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Wilson's complaint wasn't limited to 2020. I was going to include that, but as it is the post was plenty long lol. Plus there are other counter-arguments about him requiring guys to hold their blocks for longer.

Fant wasn't disastrous in pass blocking in 2020, but it's not like he was particularly good either. Run blocking was even worse. I'm not seeing how he's heads & tails better than Beachum and his $887K cap hit. If the Jets had such a great clue about OL value, superior to Seattle, I'm sorry but they wouldn't be paying George Fant $9MM/year. 

Beyond that, you're talking about a lot of "ifs" and "maybes" to justify such faith in a guy whose only career season as the beginning-to-end starting tackle was with the Jets in 2020. Cable had also been able to convert at least 3 players into credible OL starters (Fant being one of them). They may not be elite, but those are examples of turning nothing into something, and then doing it again.

So I think the more likely "if" and "maybe" incompetence scenarios are in failing to acquire or keep better starters than Ifedi and these OL-converts, not an extreme failure to coach them properly.

Great argument Sperm and we can also add Brandon Shell into the mix. He made half of Fant salary to start in Seattle and turned out to be their offensive mvp beside Russell Wilson 

I guess what I'm saying is cut George Fant. It's a mystery why he wears the C patch 

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14 minutes ago, chad2coles said:

I think you're not giving him enough credit for how he handled the Adams situation.  That has gone badly for so many other teams, he got the most value possible out of it.  The same for the Becton pick.

Perhaps, but if Seattle wasn't so over-the-top stupid he'd have been left holding the hot potato. 

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9 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Great argument Sperm and we can also add Brandon Shell into the mix. He made half of Fant salary to start in Seattle and turned out to be their offensive mvp beside Russell Wilson 

I guess what I'm saying is cut George Fant. It's a mystery why he wears the C patch 

I suppose, but I really hit on Beachum more because Shell makes too much to relegate to backup. If he re-signed Shell, then I don't know how likely it is they go tackle in round 1. Beachum, however, would fill the same hole Fant filled, and was only making backup money to do it. 

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36 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Perhaps, but if Seattle wasn't so over-the-top stupid he'd have been left holding the hot potato. 

OK, but if Douglas signed Conklin to a big guaranteed deal and he played like garbage because he was on an o-line with really bad guard play and 5 guys that just met eachother he'd get trashed for that too.  No reason not to give him credit where credit is due.

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