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Tony Pauline:Fields falling down draft boards. No NFL team has Wilson higher than Lawrence.


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8 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

Agreed on all counts. My big reservation with Lance is that if you’re going to take a chance on a guy with warts, I’d rather he be a guy with a ton of experience but shaky numbers rather than vice versa. 16 college starts gives you basically nothing to go on, scouting-wise, not to mention the prospect has less experience, which (as we’ve seen with both Sanchez and Darnold) you can’t “make up” later. I don’t know that it’s actually riskier than the other way around (see Hackenberg), but the lack of information makes it feel riskier, if that makes sense. 

But as I’ve said before, Josh ******* Allen is a top-5 QB, so who even knows anymore.

It’s not rocket science... if someone has enough physical ability to be a high draft pick, and you surround them with talent and a good coach, it’s highly probably the QB will perform well. If you surround them with sh*t and a lousy coach, they likely will perform bad. 
 

it would be fantastic to land an all time great QB who can overcome sh*t, but sitting around waiting for that is like not working to wait to hit the lottery.

Find a talented QB, surround him with talent and a good coach, profit.

 

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No surprise...after TL there is no QB worth a top 10 pick.  

These guys don’t know sh*t.

Pretty sure no one knows the exact draft board of every NFL team. 

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3 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

As I said, if Im wrong my bad.

But, look at it from this side.  You responded to someone who claimed that Fields is a one read QB, claimed Watson was similar but benefited from scheming and WRs.  Why you didnt want to pay what it would take to get him in trade.

Watson doesnt need explaining, hes a top NFL QB IMO

All good. I want fields and I do agree he is a one read qb. But he has other tools that will allow him to be very effective despite being a one read QB. There are many different ways to skin a cat, you don’t have to be great at progressions if you do other things well, like Watson.


I think Watson is excellent. I’d love to have him. I just think you can replicate his productivity at a fraction of the cost and without the risk he brings with it which is two bum knees. And fields is bigger, stronger and has better arm strength which will be highly beneficial in the east coast in December .

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5 hours ago, sec101row23 said:

That was a rough game for Justin, he only completed 80% of his passes and had the same amount of TDS as incompletions.  

If production in college was “the great indicator” there would be lots of amazing QB’s in the NFL from big time colleges. As it is the NFL struggles to field 30. The stats don’t mean anything, the film means everything.

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3 minutes ago, k-met57 said:

If production in college was “the great indicator” there would be lots of amazing QB’s in the NFL from big time colleges. As it is the NFL struggles to field 30. The stats don’t mean anything, the film means everything.

Lol...are you serious?  Did you watch that game?   You seem lost. 

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Although we love Saleh it seems like choice of OC/QB system maybe is not consistent with the QBs coming into the NFL.

Its not a system that works for a Allen, Mahomes, Wentz, Jackson . Maybe it works for Watson.  It seemed to work for Jimmy G, Cousins, Rodgers.  

What QB can play in that system?  Probably Darnold.  Zach Wilson.  Can Fields?  Lance is probably not the call.  

I think history will show Lance and Fields being good NFL QBs with a system adapted for them.  In recent times, the QBs that have done well were the exceptional athlete types.  I am not feeling Wilson as the exceptional athlete.  that is really my problem. 

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35 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

Lol...are you serious?  Did you watch that game?   You seem lost. 

here is another one smart guy....talk to me about it...

3rd and 4. pretty important down in the game. Fields throws into double coverage to a RB who unless i am missing something is not even known as a pass catcher...into complete double coverage. Maybe @JiF can tell us all about the mismatch he was trying to take advantage of.

image.thumb.png.31e296fe30db37c1ca93763e09d6283d.png

 

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1 hour ago, k-met57 said:

here is another one smart guy....talk to me about it...

3rd and 4. pretty important down in the game. Fields throws into double coverage to a RB who unless i am missing something is not even known as a pass catcher...into complete double coverage. Maybe @JiF can tell us all about the mismatch he was trying to take advantage of.

image.thumb.png.31e296fe30db37c1ca93763e09d6283d.png

 

Ok cool.  I like your arrows.  

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7 hours ago, k-met57 said:

here is another one smart guy....talk to me about it...

3rd and 4. pretty important down in the game. Fields throws into double coverage to a RB who unless i am missing something is not even known as a pass catcher...into complete double coverage. Maybe @JiF can tell us all about the mismatch he was trying to take advantage of.

image.thumb.png.31e296fe30db37c1ca93763e09d6283d.png

 

Your stills don’t show the whole play but by this it looks like he made a bad decision which has never happened by any great QB, ever.  What happened because of this crucial mistake?  Ohio St lose?  Did Fields have a bad game? Can’t remember. Fill me In. 

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14 hours ago, k-met57 said:

Have you? watch the Clemson game....Fields consistently throws into coverage even though there are receivers running open. Some people on this forum will call those "tight window throws", i call them throws that don't translate to the NFL.

image.thumb.png.c6b846c8118d2a5ce8a99fd3030a1d95.png

I remember this play live.  I replayed it like 10 times.  Pre-snap, you can see the mismatches and single coverages on the left side.  Fields looks to the right then comes back to the left.  Don't know if Fields looked away on purpose because he read it pre-snap, or if he came off the right side when it wasn't open right away.  Either way that's good.

Two guys are open, the TE in the middle is wide open and Fields misses him, but Farrell is "NFL open" in that he has leverage and it's clearly a mismatch.  The throw is brilliant and accurate away from the defender. 

A little bit of both good and bad there but mostly good.  

 

 

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15 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

I've been pretty steady here.  I like both, would understand if either were taken.  

I havent been harsh on either QB.  

I've watched plenty of games for Fields.  If you think hes a one read QB, who's game cant translate to the NFL and that Wilson is Chad-esque good for you, join Phil.  Have no idea why youre bitching to me over what he said 

You might want to pick a better game than the Clemson game to make a point btw.

 

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5 hours ago, JiF said:

Your stills don’t show the whole play but by this it looks like he made a bad decision which has never happened by any great QB, ever.  What happened because of this crucial mistake?  Ohio St lose?  Did Fields have a bad game? Can’t remember. Fill me In. 

You still don't get it man. It’s not about that game, or about having a bad game....its about the NFL and what would happen to this kid without elite playmakers around him. You think Sam struggled with the talent around him last year? Justin Fields would make you reconsider that position.

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1 minute ago, k-met57 said:

You still don't get it man. It’s not about that game, or about having a bad game....its about the NFL and what would happen to this kid without elite playmakers around him. You think Sam struggled with the talent around him last year? Justin Fields would make you reconsider that position.

Fields will be Geno if we used the second pick overall on Geno

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2 hours ago, k-met57 said:

You still don't get it man. It’s not about that game, or about having a bad game....its about the NFL and what would happen to this kid without elite playmakers around him. You think Sam struggled with the talent around him last year? Justin Fields would make you reconsider that position.

Oh I get it, man.  You're saying no big school prospect can/has/or ever will transition in the NFL because they too, are surrounded by elite talent.  Basically in this draft, the only 2 draftable players are Lance and Wilson because they didnt have "elite" playmakers.  Every other prospect sucks because their teams were loaded.  We should probably take Trevor Lawrence, Mac Wilson and Kyle Trask off the draft board too, because look at all those elite player makers!  Stupid Bengals, taking Burrow last year off that loaded team, those dumb Cardinals and Browns, totally regret taking Murrary and Mayfield. 

Yo, did you watch the Super Bowl?  Did you see those bums Mahomes and Brady were throwing to???  Poor kids, getting drafted into a league where all the players around them are going to suck now.  You got to feel bad for these guys, right? 

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4 minutes ago, JiF said:

Oh I get it, man.  You're saying no big school prospect can/has/or ever will transition in the NFL because they too, are surrounded by elite talent.  Basically in this draft, the only 2 draftable players are Lance and Wilson because they didnt have "elite" playmakers.  Every other prospect sucks because their teams were loaded.  We should probably take Trevor Lawrence, Mac Wilson and Kyle Trask off the draft board too, because look at all those elite player makers!  Stupid Bengals, taking Burrow last year off that loaded team, those dumb Cardinals and Browns, totally regret taking Murrary and Mayfield. 

Yo, did you watch the Super Bowl?  Did you see those bums Mahomes and Brady were throwing to???  Poo kids, getting drafted into a league where all the players around them are going to suck now.  You got to feel bad for these guys, right? 

Honestly I’ve heard some of the most moronic takes ever around here during these QB “debates”.   I’m not sure if these people actually believe them or are just trying to take an opposite point of view sometimes.   

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Interesting article on the rise of Wilson this year. 
 

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/zach-wilson-wide-zone-2021-nfl-draft

 

It’s a long article but I’ll post the conclusion here: 

To be a perfect fit in an offense that seems ideal for most quarterbacks, then, is just fine. There’s nothing wrong with that, and in the case of teams like San Francisco or New York—both in need of a substantial quarterback upgrade—Wilson’s playmaking ability will be a welcome sight in the building. But we should view with caution the meteoric rise of a player now cast as the clear-cut QB2 and challenger to Trevor Lawrence for QB1, in that he executed an offense that has told us many lies over its recent surge in the NFL.

Wilson is a good prospect—but with one season of explosive play in a tremendous context, his evaluation deserves more doubt than it’s currently receiving.

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7 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

Honestly I’ve heard some of the most moronic takes ever around here during these QB “debates”.   I’m not sure if these people actually believe them or are just trying to take an opposite point of view sometimes.   

There is a strange phenomenon that's taking place around the country in college Football and well, are you sitting down?....because this is a doozy.  But there is a trend going on in college Football where the best prospects at all positions, including QB's, are going to the big programs.

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16 hours ago, k-met57 said:

here is another one smart guy....talk to me about it...

3rd and 4. pretty important down in the game. Fields throws into double coverage to a RB who unless i am missing something is not even known as a pass catcher...into complete double coverage. Maybe @JiF can tell us all about the mismatch he was trying to take advantage of.

image.thumb.png.31e296fe30db37c1ca93763e09d6283d.png

 

Would you be able to share the time stamp of this play?  Thanks

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38 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

Honestly I’ve heard some of the most moronic takes ever around here during these QB “debates”.   I’m not sure if these people actually believe them or are just trying to take an opposite point of view sometimes.   

Not just here, but it seems like the central dynamic of the entire Zack Wilson v Fields conversation is based on everyone having seen a lot of Fields and absolutely no one seeing Zack Wilson, ever, but now the Wilson truthers feel emboldened because the same thing happened with the amateur Josh Allen evaluations and Allen worked out

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22 hours ago, k-met57 said:

Have you? watch the Clemson game....Fields consistently throws into coverage even though there are receivers running open. Some people on this forum will call those "tight window throws", i call them throws that don't translate to the NFL.

image.thumb.png.c6b846c8118d2a5ce8a99fd3030a1d95.png

You are obviously entitled to your opinion, however, I see a QB throwing into the end zone rather than short of the GL. I see a QB understanding leverage that the TE will have to the TE's left shoulder because he is bigger than the guy covering him. I see anticipation because the QB is halflway into his throw and the TE hasn't even turned to his left yet. I see accuracy because it is a small window and Fields literally put the ball on the TE's front left shoulder pad and, finally, I see velocity. That throw absolutely translates to the NFL. 

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51 minutes ago, JiF said:

Oh I get it, man.  You're saying no big school prospect can/has/or ever will transition in the NFL because they too, are surrounded by elite talent.  Basically in this draft, the only 2 draftable players are Lance and Wilson because they didnt have "elite" playmakers.  Every other prospect sucks because their teams were loaded.  We should probably take Trevor Lawrence, Mac Wilson and Kyle Trask off the draft board too, because look at all those elite player makers!  Stupid Bengals, taking Burrow last year off that loaded team, those dumb Cardinals and Browns, totally regret taking Murrary and Mayfield. 

Yo, did you watch the Super Bowl?  Did you see those bums Mahomes and Brady were throwing to???  Poor kids, getting drafted into a league where all the players around them are going to suck now.  You got to feel bad for these guys, right? 

It’s a two-way street. Don’t knock Wilson for playing a soft schedule and not mention the NFL supporting cast Lawrence, Fields, and Jones had at their disposal 

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4 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Not just here, but it seems like the central dynamic of the entire Zack Wilson v Fields conversation is based on everyone having seen a lot of Fields and absolutely no one seeing Zack Wilson, ever, but now the Wilson truthers feel emboldened because the same thing happened with the amateur Josh Allen evaluations and Allen worked out

Here’s the ironic part of it, while the Wilson sycophants preach how Fields is just a “system QB” playing with elite talent, the true product of their system is actually Wilson.  That, combined with a schedule against high school teams could explain why we saw a huge production jump for Wilson from 2019 to 2020.   

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4 minutes ago, maury77 said:

You are obviously entitled to your opinion, however, I see a QB throwing into the end zone rather than short of the GL. I see a QB understanding leverage that the TE will have to the TE's left shoulder because he is bigger than the guy covering him. I see anticipation because the QB is halflway into his throw and the TE hasn't even turned to his left yet. I see accuracy because it is a small window and Fields literally put the ball on the TE's front left shoulder pad and, finally, I see velocity. That throw absolutely translates to the NFL. 

I feel like that throw is how the majority of NFL TD passes look. 

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4 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

Here’s the ironic part of it, while the Wilson sycophants preach how Fields is just a “system QB” playing with elite talent, the true product of their system is actually Wilson.  That, combined with a schedule against high school teams could explain why we saw a huge production jump for Wilson from 2019 to 2020.   

I think it was Steve Young who said “they’re all system QBs.”

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3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I feel like that throw is how the majority of NFL TD passes look. 

You want to know what isn't an NFL play? Watch the following video at 23:00. Yes, it is a nice throw, but he also has an hour in the pocket to complete the throw and why doesn't he throw to the RB running the wheel route breaking across the middle? A lot of Wilson fans just refuse to recognize how many of Wilson's highlights won't translate when he plays against better athletes. 

 

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22 hours ago, Lith said:

I am with JiF.  I can't take part in any more of the QB debates.  This place has gone QB crazy.  I am just stiing on the sidelines now for most of these discussions until the Jets actually do something to gie us an idea of their thinking.  Maybe it is a sign of the passion of the fanbase that everyone has such strong opinions and won't consider that there could be some validity to a different perspective. 

QB discussions are getting to be as distasteful as politics around this board.

LOL, well done 

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7 minutes ago, GreekJet said:

It’s a two-way street. Don’t knock Wilson for playing a soft schedule and not mention the NFL supporting cast Lawrence, Fields, and Jones had at their disposal 

Of all the things that I look at, I probably weigh this the least but I think you have to take into account, no?  He's been drastically different ie much worse vs. equal/better competition.  He doesnt have that "threw 6 TD's vs. Clemson in a playoff game" type of performance on his resume.   That sad, of the games I've watched in 2020, the only time the other team had anywhere near the level of talent as BYU was Coastal Carolina and then in 2019 where he just simply, was not good vs. good teams even in wins.

This isnt a Pat Mahomes scenarios where he only performed vs. lesser teams. Every time Pat played up, he went mental.  For example; 734 yards and 5 TD's vs. Oklahoma.  And 370 and 4 vs. LSU. 

Wilson has 0 examples of these performances.  0.  So while it's not the end all be all in the evaluation, I think it would very short sighted not to consider these factors. 

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14 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

Here’s the ironic part of it, while the Wilson sycophants preach how Fields is just a “system QB” playing with elite talent, the true product of their system is actually Wilson.  That, combined with a schedule against high school teams could explain why we saw a huge production jump for Wilson from 2019 to 2020.   

It’s absolutely insane. Wilson is skating by with one season of actual production with a new system against questionable competition and people are skewering Fields for a handful of poor plays and for playing at a big program like that means anything. 

Wilson could be good in the NFL, who can really project anymore, but the lack of acknowledgement of how risky his production is just crazy. 

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16 minutes ago, maury77 said:

You want to know what isn't an NFL play? Watch the following video at 23:00. Yes, it is a nice throw, but he also has an hour in the pocket to complete the throw and why doesn't he throw to the RB running the wheel route breaking across the middle? A lot of Wilson fans just refuse to recognize how many of Wilson's highlights won't translate when he plays against better athletes. 

 

That’s definitely my main issue with Wilson, that he’s never faced a big-time pass rush. I’ve seen it too many times where these QBs put up a billion yards in college, then they get to the NFL and, like, the Ravens defense turns them into a tenderized veal patty and they never get it together after that. It’s also why I give the nod to Fields, because even though I don’t see him as an amazing prospect, at least he’s been battle tested, beat to sh*t, and persevered.

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