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Thor Nystrom (NBC Sports) QB Rankings


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5 minutes ago, win4ever said:

 


I started this process as Lawrence 1, Fields 2, and Wilson 3.

After diving in, Lawrence 1A, Fields 1B, and **** off Wilson. I don't hate him but from defending Fields so much, I've grown to dislike him. Finding myself rooting for like Lance instead.

 

Honestly (one more time for @Irish Jet because he has a cute smile) ... why is Lawrence QB1? I get why going into 2020 he was, and he's shown to be above average for sure -- but how exactly has earned the generation tag? What did he do besides a great/legendary freshman year..

  • TL struggled through stretches in his sophomore year with decision making, pressure and accuracy. 
  • TL played well, but not light the NCAA on fire in his junior year.
  • He played less that well, 2x in playoffs in his sophomore year and junior year
  • Outplayed by Fields in both  playoff games games
  • Doesn't' a great body of film demonstrating dealing with pressure and having to play from behind.

Still the guy and I would have a first round grade him, but if i was JD it wouldn't slam dunk that i draft TL.... i'd tell my evaluators and coaches to convince me why his Freshman year wasn't an aberration. Cause Fields has outplayed him the last 2 years IMO 

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Honestly (one more time for [mention=7637]Irish Jet[/mention] because he has a cute smile) ... why is Lawrence QB1? I get why going into 2020 he was, and he's shown to be above average for sure -- but how exactly has earned the generation tag? What did he do besides a great/legendary freshman year..
  • TL struggled through stretches in his sophomore year with decision making, pressure and accuracy. 
  • TL played well, but not light the NCAA on fire in his junior year.
  • He played less that well, 2x in playoffs in his sophomore year and junior year
  • Outplayed by Fields in both  playoff games games
  • Doesn't' a great body of film demonstrating dealing with pressure and having to play from behind.
Still the guy and I would have a first round grade him, but if i was JD it wouldn't slam dunk that i draft TL.... i'd tell my evaluators and coaches to convince me why his Freshman year wasn't an aberration. Cause Fields has outplayed him the last 2 years IMO 


I have him as 1A because I think he makes more anticipatory throws. The problem is that his offense is as basic as it gets, so it's hard to stand out consistently with NFL traits because you just have easier options. He also had more control at the line of scrimmage, which I think helps him set protections.

I don't want to commit to this, but I have a sneaky feeling Lawrence isn't the pick for the Jags.

- Both OCs/Passing game coordinator they brought on was from Seattle, where they worked with Wilson (who compares to Fields).

- Meyer loves Ohio State, is very close the university, and as far as I've heard, Fields is loved there. When he described his perfect QB, he mentioned mobility as a key factor. Fields' mobility translates to the NFL much better than Lawrence. Furthermore, he wanted toughness and improvisation, which fits Fields just as well as Lawrence.

- Clemson offense thrived mainly with high point receivers (Higgins/Ross) until this year. OSU thrived on speed and versatility. Their offensive weapons are Chark/Shenault which would be more towards the type of talent Fields worked with, with deeper passes, and versatility. Furthermore, a guy like Dede Westbrook fits into that mold as well. They have the weapons to run a system with deep shots like OSU.

- While it's not the Meyer system, Fields has knowledge of a similar system. The addition would be to teach him to look short at times instead of teaching him to look far. I think that's a fairly easier transition to be able to look shorter, whereas Lawrence would need more focus on reading deeper at times.

- That negotiation to sign on with the Jags took a long time, and he was basically the GM for negotiation purposes. I'm wondering if it took so long because they disagreed on the QB. Where Khan said Lawrence and he wanted his options open.

- Meyer is very much into reading tea leaves. I watch a bunch of his "Urban Analysis" videos on YouTube. One thing that stuck out to me was how much he reads the body language of a coach on kickoffs/punts. He said he likes to watch the coach and see if they are paying attention or tense, because that could signal a trick play or onside kick. Him being front and center at the Lawrence showoff felt like a red herring to me.

Again this is borderline conspiracy theory BS but I'm not 100% sure Lawrence goes at 1. Any other coach, and I think it's a lock because the media blowback would be massive. The Browns picked Baker over Darnold, and I think there's a shot Fields is the pick.
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19 minutes ago, win4ever said:

 


I have him as 1A because I think he makes more anticipatory throws. The problem is that his offense is as basic as it gets, so it's hard to stand out consistently with NFL traits because you just have easier options. He also had more control at the line of scrimmage, which I think helps him set protections.

I don't want to commit to this, but I have a sneaky feeling Lawrence isn't the pick for the Jags.

- Both OCs/Passing game coordinator they brought on was from Seattle, where they worked with Wilson (who compares to Fields).

- Meyer loves Ohio State, is very close the university, and as far as I've heard, Fields is loved there. When he described his perfect QB, he mentioned mobility as a key factor. Fields' mobility translates to the NFL much better than Lawrence. Furthermore, he wanted toughness and improvisation, which fits Fields just as well as Lawrence.

- Clemson offense thrived mainly with high point receivers (Higgins/Ross) until this year. OSU thrived on speed and versatility. Their offensive weapons are Chark/Shenault which would be more towards the type of talent Fields worked with, with deeper passes, and versatility. Furthermore, a guy like Dede Westbrook fits into that mold as well. They have the weapons to run a system with deep shots like OSU.

- While it's not the Meyer system, Fields has knowledge of a similar system. The addition would be to teach him to look short at times instead of teaching him to look far. I think that's a fairly easier transition to be able to look shorter, whereas Lawrence would need more focus on reading deeper at times.

- That negotiation to sign on with the Jags took a long time, and he was basically the GM for negotiation purposes. I'm wondering if it took so long because they disagreed on the QB. Where Khan said Lawrence and he wanted his options open.

- Meyer is very much into reading tea leaves. I watch a bunch of his "Urban Analysis" videos on YouTube. One thing that stuck out to me was how much he reads the body language of a coach on kickoffs/punts. He said he likes to watch the coach and see if they are paying attention or tense, because that could signal a trick play or onside kick. Him being front and center at the Lawrence showoff felt like a red herring to me.

Again this is borderline conspiracy theory BS but I'm not 100% sure Lawrence goes at 1. Any other coach, and I think it's a lock because the media blowback would be massive. The Browns picked Baker over Darnold, and I think there's a shot Fields is the pick.

 

If that happens, JD is holding the winning Powerball ticket.😁

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1 hour ago, win4ever said:


I don't want to commit to this, but I have a sneaky feeling Lawrence isn't the pick for the Jags.

Been feeling the same for quite some time now but haven’t had the courage to post it. I’ve been on record for months that I don’t believe TL is a generational QB, and also that I love Fields and think he has the higher ceiling. We’ve seen this just recently when Sam was the surefire #1 pick for two whole years, except that after the great freshman year, he struggled and the evaluators picked up on it pre-draft, and next thing you know, Baker jumps him as the top pick. 

1 hour ago, section314 said:

If that happens, JD is holding the winning Powerball ticket.😁

See above. We all thought Macc had the winning powerball ticket in ‘18. 

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See above. We all thought Macc had the winning powerball ticket in ‘18. 


Yeah it's been kinda gnawing at me for a bit. I still think it's extremely unlikely, but that connection is really hard to ignore. I remember him being interested in the Cowboys team when Garret got fired, who had Dak Prescott as the QB.

Listening to him on various shows, he's very adamant on matching numbers to numbers in spread. You can really do that if you have an actual running threat at QB.

I found it weird he asked Lawrence to throw a Pro-day. I get some measurement stuff like I'd want to see Fields run a 40, but him just throwing didn't seem important. We already know he has a very good arm.

I don't like the term generational for Lawrence because I'm not sure he's this amazing guy that can't miss. I think of generational guys that bring something that can't be matched or easily replicated.

Again, I'm probably going to look stupid for saying it when Lawrence gets picked first, but just a thought.
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9 hours ago, Paradis said:

And my final thought on this before I over stay my welcome (yea right like I give a sh*t) is what you're hanging a lantern on is in fact a much bigger housewives of america problem. Absolutism has somehow become a daily practiced philosophy in NA....

Josh Allen was always a good prospect... The problem was, a couple of media folk wearing their best hot take pants, began floating wild things around like... "Josh Allen, QB1.."  ..."He could go #1 overall..."... "Could be the best prospect at QB ever"... which is a fcking stupid thing to say about an yahoo from Wyoming. But they said it... Now I'm not saying it's stupid to suggest JA may eventually wind up as the best of the class, but it's stupid to say right now (march '18) he's QB1. Anyway i digress... Rather than say well that's tall order, Jeremiah - people threw their IQ out the window and said nope he sucks. Bust. etc etc. (again, case-study see @Irish Jet)  ...convinced themselves there there was no possible outcome for Josh Allen other than flaming Zeppelin 

Everything now is constantly the best or the worst. .... You like Fields? Oh well, let me tell you why Wilson isn't the worst... uh hold on, i never said Wilson was the worst... Yes you did, you said Fields QB1... Now hold one. i didn't say--  ....NOPE! You're an idiot.

I hate everyone. 

What are you talking about?

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accidental double post.... but we'll we are at it - i hate this year. Bullsh*t receivers getting too much love, a completely sideways popularity contest at QB... erratic reports on trades and franchise dispositions... 
Twitter-culture, which was at one point an incredible outlet for the draft community to share information, has turned this time of the year into a juvenile circus of egos and unqualified takes, baked in fantasy or the need to plant a flag for the sake of fcking planting flags
I hate everyone.

Now that draft twitter also sucks, that app is completely useless


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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11 hours ago, Irish Jet said:

The only QB I like in this draft is Lawrence.

Fields and Lance are almost certain to suck if they play immediately. The latter just due to a laughable lack of playing time. Fields has so many bad habits and his physical tools are overrated. He struggles to push the ball to the sideline time and again. They both need to sit and get coached up for a while.

Wilson I don’t really know too much about. He clearly has some skills and I think he’s much better at getting the ball out quickly than those two but I don’t think he’s anywhere close to. #2 overall guy. 

Yes, look at Fields "struggle" with the throw at the 8 minute mark:

 

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1 hour ago, maury77 said:

Yes, look at Fields "struggle" with the throw at the 8 minute mark:

 

It’s not an arm strength issue. He can make the throw, it’s a problem with form and consistency. Way too often balls sail on him, he should have had 5 picks at least vs Bama with all the same type of pass. And I was saying that would happen before the game.

We shall see but I think he’s going to be eaten alive in the NFL.

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But I must say it’s exceptionally ironic for people to criticise Wilson for having too much time on the one hand while marvelling over Fields vs Clemson on the other.

Fields didn’t really outplay Lawrence in that game. His line just totally outplayed Clemson’s.

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13 hours ago, Paradis said:

And my final thought on this before I over stay my welcome (yea right like I give a sh*t) is what you're hanging a lantern on is in fact a much bigger housewives of america problem. Absolutism has somehow become a daily practiced philosophy in NA....

Josh Allen was always a good prospect... The problem was, a couple of media folk wearing their best hot take pants, began floating wild things around like... "Josh Allen, QB1.."  ..."He could go #1 overall..."... "Could be the best prospect at QB ever"... which is a fcking stupid thing to say about an yahoo from Wyoming. But they said it... Now I'm not saying it's stupid to suggest JA may eventually wind up as the best of the class, but it's stupid to say right now (march '18) he's QB1. Anyway i digress... Rather than say well that's tall order, Jeremiah - people threw their IQ out the window and said nope he sucks. Bust. etc etc. (again, case-study see @Irish Jet)  ...convinced themselves there there was no possible outcome for Josh Allen other than flaming Zeppelin 

Everything now is constantly the best or the worst. .... You like Fields? Oh well, let me tell you why Wilson isn't the worst... uh hold on, i never said Wilson was the worst... Yes you did, you said Fields QB1... Now hold one. i didn't say--  ....NOPE! You're an idiot.

I hate everyone. 

I wish I could give this a blue heart, POTW, and upvote. 

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13 hours ago, win4ever said:

 


I started this process as Lawrence 1, Fields 2, and Wilson 3.

After diving in, Lawrence 1A, Fields 1B, and **** off Wilson. I don't hate him but from defending Fields so much, I've grown to dislike him. Finding myself rooting for like Lance instead.

 

Literally the opposite for me. I started off with the QBs as all basically interesting prospects worthy of top 3 picks. This board has basically pushed me into Wilson, then Lawrence, then Fields, not because of actual play on the field but because the Fields zealots are insufferable. 

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1 hour ago, Irish Jet said:

It’s not an arm strength issue. He can make the throw, it’s a problem with form and consistency. Way too often balls sail on him, he should have had 5 picks at least vs Bama with all the same type of pass. And I was saying that would happen before the game.

We shall see but I think he’s going to be eaten alive in the NFL.

I do agree that he’s got some mechanical things he has to clean up. Given it’s a form issue, would you think it’s correctable? And would your thoughts on his pro prospects be different if he’s drafted eighth and sits for a year versus second and starts right away - or do you just not like him regardless?

The farther he slides the better the situation he lands in and the better chance he gets some time to sit and work on mechanics. I don’t think playing for two teams in three years during college - one of which was messy due to a pandemic - did him any favors in that regard. And he’s also clearly very physically talented in a way that those mechanical issues didn’t cause him major issues in college. 

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1 hour ago, derp said:

I do agree that he’s got some mechanical things he has to clean up. Given it’s a form issue, would you think it’s correctable? And would your thoughts on his pro prospects be different if he’s drafted eighth and sits for a year versus second and starts right away - or do you just not like him regardless?

The farther he slides the better the situation he lands in and the better chance he gets some time to sit and work on mechanics. I don’t think playing for two teams in three years during college - one of which was messy due to a pandemic - did him any favors in that regard. And he’s also clearly very physically talented in a way that those mechanical issues didn’t cause him major issues in college. 

Yeah I have said that sitting would definitely be best for him, Lance too for other reasons. He's obviously got all the physical ability but he has some habits that I think will translate very badly and he needs to get those corrected. When I say a disaster I think that's what he'd be here, where he'll have to start and lead the team right away in what will almost certainly be a below average situation at best. 

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3 hours ago, Irish Jet said:

But I must say it’s exceptionally ironic for people to criticise Wilson for having too much time on the one hand while marvelling over Fields vs Clemson on the other.

Fields didn’t really outplay Lawrence in that game. His line just totally outplayed Clemson’s.

No

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Sort of related, @sec101row23 you’ve been quiet in some respects about Lawrence in recent weeks or so. What’s your final take? Do you believe he’s the generational talent talking heads are making him out to be? Do you believe some of his valleys are negligible compared to his peaks? 

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20 hours ago, Paradis said:

The absurdity of this is immeasurable. If anything less than this turns out to be true, i will find you and I will tattoo this post on you. 

The quality of your repentance between now and then will determine where on your nubile body this scripture is placed.

200.gif

c'mon now, remember Paxton Lynch?

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6 minutes ago, peebag said:

c'mon now, remember Paxton Lynch?

I think you’re the last one to continue bringing him up. But it’s always in some onerous capacity. What is the point you’re trying to leverage his name on? 

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His comparisons are lousy and lazy imo.

The rankings come draft day and then two years from now are going to be very interesting indeed.

For me, I still want to trade down.  I just do not totally trust the top two guys after Lawrence (even lawrence is going to open up some eyes and not in a good way if you ask me.)

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20 hours ago, Paradis said:

Sort of related, @sec101row23 you’ve been quiet in some respects about Lawrence in recent weeks or so. What’s your final take? Do you believe he’s the generational talent talking heads are making him out to be? Do you believe some of his valleys are negligible compared to his peaks? 

As far as the generational stuff, I don’t really buy into that kind of hype.  He’s certainly a really good QB prospect though.  I started hearing about him and seeing him in 8th grade so you can see how this hype train has started.  To his credit, he has lived up to the hype.   I remember watching him in spring practice his freshman year and thinking there is no way this kid is 17 years old.  We were talking to Jeff Scott the OC at the time and he said he has never seen a kid come in as mechanically sound as Trevor.  
 

I actually think in some ways the Clemson offense hurt his development as an NFL QB, but that’s not really what college offenses and coaches are primarily concerned with, they are there to win games.   He started 2019 with so much hype and attention after winning the National Championship that he tried to do way too much on every throw and it led to some bad decisions and some bad play.  After a few games he settled down and didn’t throw another interception for an entire calendar year.  
 

At the end of the day, he’s going to be no different than any rookie QB.  If you draft him and just expect him to win games on his own from day one, then you’ll be disappointed.   He has all the ability, he’s mentally tough and I would be shocked if didn’t turn into a long time starter in this league.  

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13 hours ago, sec101row23 said:

As far as the generational stuff, I don’t really buy into that kind of hype.  He’s certainly a really good QB prospect though.  I started hearing about him and seeing him in 8th grade so you can see how this hype train has started.  To his credit, he has lived up to the hype.   I remember watching him in spring practice his freshman year and thinking there is no way this kid is 17 years old.  We were talking to Jeff Scott the OC at the time and he said he has never seen a kid come in as mechanically sound as Trevor.  
 

I actually think in some ways the Clemson offense hurt his development as an NFL QB, but that’s not really what college offenses and coaches are primarily concerned with, they are there to win games.   He started 2019 with so much hype and attention after winning the National Championship that he tried to do way too much on every throw and it led to some bad decisions and some bad play.  After a few games he settled down and didn’t throw another interception for an entire calendar year.  
 

At the end of the day, he’s going to be no different than any rookie QB.  If you draft him and just expect him to win games on his own from day one, then you’ll be disappointed.   He has all the ability, he’s mentally tough and I would be shocked if didn’t turn into a long time starter in this league.  

Probably the best tempered answer one could give. It's could to hear you / remind me about how developed and promising he was coming to Clemson... i find sometimes when i push back on "inflation" i tend to get carried away... so it's good to be reminded why TL was special. 

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11 hours ago, Paradis said:

Probably the best tempered answer one could give. It's could to hear you / remind me about how developed and promising he was coming to Clemson... i find sometimes when i push back on "inflation" i tend to get carried away... so it's good to be reminded why TL was special. 

I am  the same way, the more someone keeps telling me how great someone is, the more skeptical I get and want to push back on that.  
 

What really opened my eyes was watching practices and seeing the Clemson QBs going through drills, then 7 on 7’s then 11 on 11 and seeing the difference between the QBs running the same plays and drills side by side.  It was glaring how much more refined and mechanically sound Trevor was over the other Clemson QBs.  It’s like there were a bunch of walk-ons either, you had Kelly Bryant and Chase Brice as the other QBs.  Bryant transferred to Missouri and Bryce went to Duke, so it’s not like these kids went to some D2 programs.   

I watched it with the Clemson receivers as well, watch Tee go through his drills and see how he catches the ball and then watch the other receivers and it becomes obvious how good he was   

When you watch these elite athletes compete against their peers and you can easily see just how much better some of these kids are, you really appreciate how talented some of these players are.  

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The misunderstanding people are having by trying to translate Josh Allen is that he is an outlier. I could place an epidural blind folded and maybe I get it the first time. Doesn’t mean the textbooks are all wrong and it’s actually a consistent way to do things. Same for this discussion. But people love anecdotal evidence, especially in sports. We like to think that as humans we have special intuition, but we don’t. Follow the evidence people!

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15 hours ago, TheMo said:

The misunderstanding people are having by trying to translate Josh Allen is that he is an outlier. I could place an epidural blind folded and maybe I get it the first time. Doesn’t mean the textbooks are all wrong and it’s actually a consistent way to do things. Same for this discussion. But people love anecdotal evidence, especially in sports. We like to think that as humans we have special intuition, but we don’t. Follow the evidence people!

Agreed.  People seem to love using the exception to prove the rule.  Drew Brees sucked for 3 years and went on to a HOF career, so we dhouldn't give up on Darnold.  Allen had great tools but struggled with accuracy in college, so we should love any prosepct with tools rather than production.  Truth is most QBs who suck for 3 years just suck.  Most college QBs who struggle iwth accuracy don't become good pros. 

Counting on finding the next exception is not the way to build a franchise.

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On 2/26/2021 at 3:04 AM, Philc1 said:

How is fields being rated so highly above Jones?  They both played on stacked teams.  Fields more mobile but is it really that big a difference 

There's stacked and then there's Alabama stacked.  Smith, Harris, a few games of Waddle.  Not to mention last year when Jones played a third of the season throwing to Jeudy, Ruggs, Smith AND Waddle.  Honestly, I don't know if there was ever a better WR corps in CFB. 

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4 minutes ago, Lith said:

Agreed.  People seem to love using the exception to prove the rule.  Drew Bress sucked for 3 years and went on to a HOF career, so we dhouldn't give up on Darnold.  Allen had great tools but struggled with accuracy in college, so we should love any prosepct with tools rather than production.  Truth is most QBs who suck for 3 years just suck.  Most college QBs who struggle iwth accuracy don't become good pros. 

Counting on finding the next exception is not the way to build a franchise.

It's interesting when you consider that the five best QBs in the league, give or take, were all drafted outside the top-9 picks.  I'm counting Brees, Brady, Mahomes, Watson, Rodgers for the moment.  You could throw Wilson in there as well.  The odds still favor the top draft positions, but the reality right now is that you can certainly bust in the top-5 and find a diamond outside of it.

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2 hours ago, nycdan said:

It's interesting when you consider that the five best QBs in the league, give or take, were all drafted outside the top-9 picks.  I'm counting Brees, Brady, Mahomes, Watson, Rodgers for the moment.  You could throw Wilson in there as well.  The odds still favor the top draft positions, but the reality right now is that you can certainly bust in the top-5 and find a diamond outside of it.

I think this speaks more to GMs making poor decisions not based in sound evaluation. Trubisky made zero sense in his draft. Watson was definitively the better prospect. So really it’s not that the best prospects sometimes bust it’s the evaluators being unable to accurately define the players

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3 hours ago, nycdan said:

There's stacked and then there's Alabama stacked.  Smith, Harris, a few games of Waddle.  Not to mention last year when Jones played a third of the season throwing to Jeudy, Ruggs, Smith AND Waddle.  Honestly, I don't know if there was ever a better WR corps in CFB. 

Ohio State is pretty stacked too just ask their last 19 QBs who tried to play in the nfl 

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