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Draft talk - WR - is the value late?


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I know we've had some individual threads regarding a few prospects and talked about it a bit in the who's visiting thread but I find this particular draft class of WR's to be extremely intriguing and while I know this draft for WR is headlined by some studs; Jamar Chase, Devonta Smith, Jalen Waddle, etc.  I'm really starting to wonder if the value is late.  I'd love the Jets to stock up on offense but when I look at the way the draft is falling, if hypothetically, were to stay put, the value might be edge/CB/OL at 23 and 34.  So, this thread is to examine some later round prospects that I think could be absolute steals for the Jets, or any team for that matter.  So the sake of this conversation, I'm going to leave out the WR's I've been seeing going in rounds 1 and 2 and focus on the guys I see falling a little later.

USC -Amon-Ra. St. Brown - a highly productive career USC.  Good size, speed, hands and body control.  Could be someone who lines up wide and has a place in the NFL.

Auburn - Seth Williams - game changer at the position last year, not so much this year.  Not sure how much of it was the offense and Bo Nix.  But Seth is a big frame WR who can move the chains and has in the past displayed down field attributes.

Florida - Trevon Grimes - 6'5, 215, probably runs a sub 4.5.  Prototype WR 1.  Big, fast, can go get it, great hands, physical, blocks down field, has yac ability.  I'm seeing him dropping to 4/5 and it's nutty to me.  If he was in a system that fed him the ball and not Florida's who spreads it around, this kid could have had a monster year and probably helped his stock.  Maybe some homer here, but I love Grimes in the NFL.

FSU - Tamorrion Terry - see above, they are legit the same dude, just one wore really ugly colors in college.

Clemson - Amari Rodgers - built like a RB, this kid could be a monster in the slot in the NFL.  Again, confusing why I see him going in 4/5 round range, highly productive player with next level potential. 

Texas Tech - T.J. Vasher - similar to Terry/Grimes, a big physical specimen w/ speed.  Can play outside.  Apparently there are some character concerns but at one point I remember hearing some next level comparisons.

Ole Miss - Elijah Moore - seems destined for the slot because of his size but a highly productive shifty player that can beat you in a number of ways.

Colorado St. - Warren Steward - opted out of 2020 but dude stands at 6'6 and will run in the 4'5 range.  Had a monster season in 2019.  

 

Who you guys like? 

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It’s so hard to do this pre FA. If the Jets manage to bring in a big time guy or two upside guys in the passing game, absolutely wait and build depth. If they pretty much swing and miss I’m not sure they can.

Don't think corner will be a priority early in the new scheme.

I like what I’ve seen from Grimes a lot so interesting you bring him up and I like Terry too. That’s more my type at WR. Darden definitely has some fans here. I do like Rodgers as well.

St. Brown is nice, too. Similar region in the draft, I like Dyami Brown and think he’s underrated. I liked Eskridge and Shi Smith at the Senior Bowl too. Sage Surratt is one I think could outproduce his draft position - his brother is a scheme fit at linebacker.

There are some guys but I don’t think it’s as deep as last year in mid round two through round 3 and I like the guys at the top substantially more than last year. And I still think Rondale Moore is awesome and just a perfect fit at 34.

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Amari Rodgers is interesting, he could fill that Debo Samuel role in the offense.  Like @JiF said, he’s build like a RB similar to Deebo.  His dad is Tee Martin who won a National Championship for Tennessee.  He was way more explosive this year mainly due to being fully recovered from an ACL year in 2019.  He actually tore his ACL in late March during spring ball and came back and was in game action that following September.  He’s a tough kid.   

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11 minutes ago, derp said:

It’s so hard to do this pre FA. If the Jets manage to bring in a big time guy or two upside guys in the passing game, absolutely wait and build depth. If they pretty much swing and miss I’m not sure they can.

Don't think corner will be a priority early in the new scheme.

I like what I’ve seen from Grimes a lot so interesting you bring him up and I like Terry too. That’s more my type at WR. Darden definitely has some fans here. I do like Rodgers as well.

St. Brown is nice, too. Similar region in the draft, I like Dyami Brown and think he’s underrated. I liked Eskridge and Shi Smith at the Senior Bowl too. Sage Surratt is one I think could outproduce his draft position - his brother is a scheme fit at linebacker.

There are some guys but I don’t think it’s as deep as last year in mid round two through round 3 and I like the guys at the top substantially more than last year. And I still think Rondale Moore is awesome and just a perfect fit at 34.

I agree with all of this, it really depends what we bring in during FA.  The issue is that a lot of these guys skill set is redundant to some degree.  @Paradis has mentioned this a few times but it bears repeating that this draft is very heavy on slot type players.  It's good for us because our offense will feature more Big Slot type WR's with having a higher focus on position flexibility and YAC ability.  Jets will certainly add 1 player and I agree if moore is there at 34 he'll warrant consideration (toney too if he's there) if we do not end up with a guy like Chase or Waddle in round 1.   In that scenario with taking a WR early you would think then that we would be looking to the later round depth.  I have harped on how valuable a late round pick i think Darden can be, but I also really like a lot of the practice film ive seen from Elija Moore (not getting the credit for his release moves and route breaks he should).  I also like both surratt's. 

This may not have as many top flight talents as last years crop but it's certainly a deep group overall

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1 hour ago, derp said:

It’s so hard to do this pre FA. If the Jets manage to bring in a big time guy or two upside guys in the passing game, absolutely wait and build depth. If they pretty much swing and miss I’m not sure they can.

Don't think corner will be a priority early in the new scheme.

I like what I’ve seen from Grimes a lot so interesting you bring him up and I like Terry too. That’s more my type at WR. Darden definitely has some fans here. I do like Rodgers as well.

St. Brown is nice, too. Similar region in the draft, I like Dyami Brown and think he’s underrated. I liked Eskridge and Shi Smith at the Senior Bowl too. Sage Surratt is one I think could outproduce his draft position - his brother is a scheme fit at linebacker.

There are some guys but I don’t think it’s as deep as last year in mid round two through round 3 and I like the guys at the top substantially more than last year. And I still think Rondale Moore is awesome and just a perfect fit at 34.

Surrat was one I forgot to list, I think he could have some next level value for sure.  

I tried to leave Moore/Toney, etc out because I've been seeing them go 1st/2n round.

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1 hour ago, sec101row23 said:

Amari Rodgers is interesting, he could fill that Debo Samuel role in the offense.  Like @JiF said, he’s build like a RB similar to Deebo.  His dad is Tee Martin who won a National Championship for Tennessee.  He was way more explosive this year mainly due to being fully recovered from an ACL year in 2019.  He actually tore his ACL in late March during spring ball and came back and was in game action that following September.  He’s a tough kid.   

No sh*t?  Tee Martin's kid??  F that, dont want him now.  lol

I agree, I see a dangerous player who can help a team looking for a dynamic play maker. 

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1 hour ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

I agree with all of this, it really depends what we bring in during FA.  The issue is that a lot of these guys skill set is redundant to some degree.  @Paradis has mentioned this a few times but it bears repeating that this draft is very heavy on slot type players.  It's good for us because our offense will feature more Big Slot type WR's with having a higher focus on position flexibility and YAC ability.  Jets will certainly add 1 player and I agree if moore is there at 34 he'll warrant consideration (toney too if he's there) if we do not end up with a guy like Chase or Waddle in round 1.   In that scenario with taking a WR early you would think then that we would be looking to the later round depth.  I have harped on how valuable a late round pick i think Darden can be, but I also really like a lot of the practice film ive seen from Elija Moore (not getting the credit for his release moves and route breaks he should).  I also like both surratt's. 

This may not have as many top flight talents as last years crop but it's certainly a deep group overall

FWIW I remember some talk about if Justin Jefferson would struggle getting separation in the NFL because he almost exclusively worked out of the slot at LSU....he was a monster this year and lined up all over.  

I think if these kids got the size and physical make up, they can transition.  

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I agree that this draft has a sweet spot is after round 2  My guys:

Dyami Brown: he’s really good. He’s my guy.  His weaknesses are some drops and that he’s not a 50-50 ball guy. Oh well, he has quickness and speed to make up for it. Subtle route runner, smart in space, maximized YAC when given the chance.

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

I agree that this draft has a sweet spot is after round 2  My guys:

Dyami Brown: he’s really good. He’s my guy.  His weaknesses are some drops and that he’s not a 50-50 ball guy. Oh well, he has quickness and speed to make up for it. Subtle route runner, smart in space, maximized YAC when given the chance.

 

 

 

Agree about Brown, if you create some plays for him he could be dangerous.  That UNC offense had some pretty good players on it.  

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1 hour ago, kdels62 said:

I agree that this draft has a sweet spot is after round 2  My guys:

Dyami Brown: he’s really good. He’s my guy.  His weaknesses are some drops and that he’s not a 50-50 ball guy. Oh well, he has quickness and speed to make up for it. Subtle route runner, smart in space, maximized YAC when given the chance.

 

 

 

 

54 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

Agree about Brown, if you create some plays for him he could be dangerous.  That UNC offense had some pretty good players on it.  

I like what I saw from Brown and Newsome any time I watched UNC.  Both were play makers in college.  

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4 hours ago, JiF said:

I know we've had some individual threads regarding a few prospects and talked about it a bit in the who's visiting thread but I find this particular draft class of WR's to be extremely intriguing and while I know this draft for WR is headlined by some studs; Jamar Chase, Devonta Smith, Jalen Waddle, etc.  I'm really starting to wonder if the value is late.  I'd love the Jets to stock up on offense but when I look at the way the draft is falling, if hypothetically, were to stay put, the value might be edge/CB/OL at 23 and 34.  So, this thread is to examine some later round prospects that I think could be absolute steals for the Jets, or any team for that matter.  So the sake of this conversation, I'm going to leave out the WR's I've been seeing going in rounds 1 and 2 and focus on the guys I see falling a little later.

USC -Amon-Ra. St. Brown - a highly productive career USC.  Good size, speed, hands and body control.  Could be someone who lines up wide and has a place in the NFL.

Auburn - Seth Williams - game changer at the position last year, not so much this year.  Not sure how much of it was the offense and Bo Nix.  But Seth is a big frame WR who can move the chains and has in the past displayed down field attributes.

Florida - Trevon Grimes - 6'5, 215, probably runs a sub 4.5.  Prototype WR 1.  Big, fast, can go get it, great hands, physical, blocks down field, has yac ability.  I'm seeing him dropping to 4/5 and it's nutty to me.  If he was in a system that fed him the ball and not Florida's who spreads it around, this kid could have had a monster year and probably helped his stock.  Maybe some homer here, but I love Grimes in the NFL.

FSU - Tamorrion Terry - see above, they are legit the same dude, just one wore really ugly colors in college.

Clemson - Amari Rodgers - built like a RB, this kid could be a monster in the slot in the NFL.  Again, confusing why I see him going in 4/5 round range, highly productive player with next level potential. 

Texas Tech - T.J. Vasher - similar to Terry/Grimes, a big physical specimen w/ speed.  Can play outside.  Apparently there are some character concerns but at one point I remember hearing some next level comparisons.

Ole Miss - Elijah Moore - seems destined for the slot because of his size but a highly productive shifty player that can beat you in a number of ways.

Colorado St. - Warren Steward - opted out of 2020 but dude stands at 6'6 and will run in the 4'5 range.  Had a monster season in 2019.  

 

Who you guys like? 

Sounds like you like him better than Toney. Every mock I do has Toney going in rd #1.

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46 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

I agree that this draft has a sweet spot is after round 2  

I'll be honest when i say i have no idea how on earth you came to that conclusion.

3 hours ago, JiF said:

I know we've had some individual threads regarding a few prospects and talked about it a bit in the who's visiting thread but I find this particular draft class of WR's to be extremely intriguing and while I know this draft for WR is headlined by some studs; Jamar Chase, Devonta Smith, Jalen Waddle, etc.  I'm really starting to wonder if the value is late.  I'd love the Jets to stock up on offense but when I look at the way the draft is falling, if hypothetically, were to stay put, the value might be edge/CB/OL at 23 and 34.  So, this thread is to examine some later round prospects that I think could be absolute steals for the Jets, or any team for that matter.  So the sake of this conversation, I'm going to leave out the WR's I've been seeing going in rounds 1 and 2 and focus on the guys I see falling a little later.

USC -Amon-Ra. St. Brown - a highly productive career USC.  Good size, speed, hands and body control.  Could be someone who lines up wide and has a place in the NFL.

Auburn - Seth Williams - game changer at the position last year, not so much this year.  Not sure how much of it was the offense and Bo Nix.  But Seth is a big frame WR who can move the chains and has in the past displayed down field attributes.

Florida - Trevon Grimes - 6'5, 215, probably runs a sub 4.5.  Prototype WR 1.  Big, fast, can go get it, great hands, physical, blocks down field, has yac ability.  I'm seeing him dropping to 4/5 and it's nutty to me.  If he was in a system that fed him the ball and not Florida's who spreads it around, this kid could have had a monster year and probably helped his stock.  Maybe some homer here, but I love Grimes in the NFL.

FSU - Tamorrion Terry - see above, they are legit the same dude, just one wore really ugly colors in college.

Clemson - Amari Rodgers - built like a RB, this kid could be a monster in the slot in the NFL.  Again, confusing why I see him going in 4/5 round range, highly productive player with next level potential. 

Texas Tech - T.J. Vasher - similar to Terry/Grimes, a big physical specimen w/ speed.  Can play outside.  Apparently there are some character concerns but at one point I remember hearing some next level comparisons.

Ole Miss - Elijah Moore - seems destined for the slot because of his size but a highly productive shifty player that can beat you in a number of ways.

Colorado St. - Warren Steward - opted out of 2020 but dude stands at 6'6 and will run in the 4'5 range.  Had a monster season in 2019.  

 

Who you guys like? 

*Warren Jackson

Including Rnd 3 in the definition of "late" is... generous of you. You're basically saying outside the top 60. Little too broad for my tastes.

I'll use a more conventional system:

  • Early: Rounds 1-2.... premium players at a premium price
  • Mid: Rounds 3-4.... this is where bang for your buck comes into play
  • Late: Round 5-7... dart throws, fliers and character problems... 

Pretty hard to say "value" is late. You can certainly find some value players late though

Personally, i think there's good picks to be had in the mid rounds, but it's not value compared to the Early rounds. those top 5-6 guys are light years better than this mid round lottery of "real shifty inside guys" ... who many are to me athletic limited redundant players who are going to be competing for 4-5 openings across the NFL... slot WRs are a dime a dozen. The value is rnds 1-2 for sure (for me),

I would be double dipping at WR this year, my mid round favorites:

  1. Warren Jackson - he'll be 220, 6'6 and a total gazelle with natural hands/ball tracking. Could be ridiculous. 
  2. Eskridge/Darden/St. Brown - All 3 are effectively similar and more than just "another Crowder"... they have E. Sanders potential.
  3. Cornell Powell (clemson) - love his game & resilience. A valuable #3. We haven't depth like Powell in 20 years. 
  4. D. Felton - saw him compared to Randall Cobb and it clicked. I like it. 
  5. Grimes - beast who's a victim playing besides Pitts and Toney. 

Don't like:

  1. Elijah Moore - saw him get bounced by physical corners. Looks great in shirts and shorts, but I'd sooner get my mileage out of those 3 inside Sanders types I listed above. 'Bama's Nickleback Malachi Moore owned Elijah all game. Ate his dinner too.
  2. Seth Williams and Sage Surrat - nothing special and neither look like they can keep up in the NFL
  3. Dyami Brown.. What? this guy's a thing? Worst contested catcher i've ever seen. No place for him on NYJ
  4. Marquez Stevenson (HOU)... fast, but his footwork is trash, bad vs press and any contact throws him off.

Late round maybes: Vasher, has top 50 talent, but DGB 2.0? Austin Watkins (UAB), Dez Fitzpatrick (UL)

I don't know yet: T. Wallace (OSU), T. Terry (FSU), N. Collins (Michigan)

 

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6 minutes ago, section314 said:

Sounds like you like him better than Toney. Every mock I do has Toney going in rd #1.

I will bet anyone 100$ to a charity of the winner's choice that Toney doesn't go round 1. Hype is 100% draft twitter manufactured. he's decent player with some unique gadget skills up his sleeve but his not viewed as more than a role player. 

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1 minute ago, Paradis said:

I will bet anyone 100$ to a charity of the winner's choice that Toney doesn't go round 1. Hype is 100% draft twitter manufactured. he's decent player with some unique gadget skills up his sleeve but his not viewed as more than a role player. 

I would be on your side of the bet as well.

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10 minutes ago, section314 said:

Sounds like you like him better than Toney. Every mock I do has Toney going in rd #1.

I love both but from a value perspective, Grimes might be a steal.

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6 minutes ago, Paradis said:

I'll be honest when i say i have no idea how on earth you came to that conclusion.

*Warren Jackson

Including Rnd 3 in the definition of "late" is... generous of you. You're basically saying outside the top 60. Little too broad for my tastes.

I'll use a more conventional system:

  • Early: Rounds 1-2.... premium players at a premium price
  • Mid: Rounds 3-4.... this is where bang for your buck comes into play
  • Late: Round 5-7... dart throws, fliers and character problems... 

Pretty hard to say "value" is late. You can certainly find some value players late though

Personally, i think there's good picks to be had in the mid rounds, but it's not value compared to the Early rounds. those top 5-6 guys are light years better than this mid round lottery of "real shifty inside guys" ... who many are to me athletic limited redundant players who are going to be competing for 4-5 openings across the NFL... slot WRs are a dime a dozen. The value is rnds 1-2 for sure (for me),

I would be double dipping at WR this year, my mid round favorites:

  1. Warren Jackson - he'll be 220, 6'6 and a total gazelle with natural hands/ball tracking. Could be ridiculous. 
  2. Eskridge/Darden/St. Brown - All 3 are effectively similar and more than just "another Crowder"... they have E. Sanders potential.
  3. Cornell Powell (clemson) - love his game & resilience. A valuable #3. We haven't depth like Powell in 20 years. 
  4. D. Felton - saw him compared to Randall Cobb and it clicked. I like it. 
  5. Grimes - beast who's a victim playing besides Pitts and Toney. 

Don't like:

  1. Elijah Moore - saw him get bounced by physical corners. Looks great in shirts and shorts, but I'd sooner get my mileage out of those 3 inside Sanders types I listed above. 'Bama's Nickleback Malachi Moore owned Elijah all game. Ate his dinner too.
  2. Seth Williams and Sage Surrat - nothing special and neither look like they can keep up in the NFL
  3. Dyami Brown.. What? this guy's a thing? Worst contested catcher i've ever seen. No place for him on NYJ
  4. Marquez Stevenson (HOU)... fast, but his footwork is trash, bad vs press and any contact throws him off.

Late round maybes: Vasher, has top 50 talent, but DGB 2.0? Austin Watkins (UAB), Dez Fitzpatrick (UL)

I don't know yet: T. Wallace (OSU), T. Terry (FSU), N. Collins (Michigan)

 

Basically there are too many similar wide receivers for me to separate them by round. So basically, go get a small yac guy just do it after the 2nd Round. I think the top 3 guys are great and then it’s all the same after round 2.

 

7 minutes ago, Paradis said:

@kdels62

giphy.gif

Brown is undraftable.

I will fight you for the honor of this 3rd round wide receiver. 

I don’t care about contested catches. Be smooth and show subtle route running and I become invested. 

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2 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

 

 

I will fight you for the honor of this 3rd round wide receiver. 

I don’t care about contested catches. Be smooth and show subtle route running and I become invested. 

I honestly not sure he’ll ever take a snap on Sundays. 

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2 hours ago, JiF said:

Surrat was one I forgot to list, I think he could have some next level value for sure.  

I tried to leave Moore/Toney, etc out because I've been seeing them go 1st/2n round.

Oh yeah I got you, I just really really like Moore. He’s the kind of player the Jets really need, and I think he’s projected at a range where if it turns out the injuries are fluky he’s an insane value and if they aren’t it doesn’t cripple. I also think his development trajectory and early role would align well and he really fits the scheme. Plus supposedly very high character. So almost a lock he lands elsewhere.

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10 minutes ago, Paradis said:

I'll be honest when i say i have no idea how on earth you came to that conclusion.

*Warren Jackson

Including Rnd 3 in the definition of "late" is... generous of you. You're basically saying outside the top 60. Little too broad for my tastes.

I'll use a more conventional system:

  • Early: Rounds 1-2.... premium players at a premium price
  • Mid: Rounds 3-4.... this is where bang for your buck comes into play
  • Late: Round 5-7... dart throws, fliers and character problems... 

Pretty hard to say "value" is late. You can certainly find some value players late though

Personally, i think there's good picks to be had in the mid rounds, but it's not value compared to the Early rounds. those top 5-6 guys are light years better than this mid round lottery of "real shifty inside guys" ... who many are to me athletic limited redundant players who are going to be competing for 4-5 openings across the NFL... slot WRs are a dime a dozen. The value is rnds 1-2 for sure (for me),

I would be double dipping at WR this year, my mid round favorites:

  1. Warren Jackson - he'll be 220, 6'6 and a total gazelle with natural hands/ball tracking. Could be ridiculous. 
  2. Eskridge/Darden/St. Brown - All 3 are effectively similar and more than just "another Crowder"... they have E. Sanders potential.
  3. Cornell Powell (clemson) - love his game & resilience. A valuable #3. We haven't depth like Powell in 20 years. 
  4. D. Felton - saw him compared to Randall Cobb and it clicked. I like it. 
  5. Grimes - beast who's a victim playing besides Pitts and Toney. 

Don't like:

  1. Elijah Moore - saw him get bounced by physical corners. Looks great in shirts and shorts, but I'd sooner get my mileage out of those 3 inside Sanders types I listed above. 'Bama's Nickleback Malachi Moore owned Elijah all game. Ate his dinner too.
  2. Seth Williams and Sage Surrat - nothing special and neither look like they can keep up in the NFL
  3. Dyami Brown.. What? this guy's a thing? Worst contested catcher i've ever seen. No place for him on NYJ
  4. Marquez Stevenson (HOU)... fast, but his footwork is trash, bad vs press and any contact throws him off.

Late round maybes: Vasher, has top 50 talent, but DGB 2.0? Austin Watkins (UAB), Dez Fitzpatrick (UL)

I don't know yet: T. Wallace (OSU), T. Terry (FSU), N. Collins (Michigan)

 

Dont come into my thread and try to define my criteria, pal.  lol

Maybe I should have been more specific but when I say "late" - I meant not with our 1st/2nd round picks where it seems the marque names are going.  So sure, your system is more specific but I was keeping broad for a reason ie; the Jets can afford to go D/OL early and find a WR....late"r". Iol

Disagree on Moore, big time and Williams and Surratt can definitely find a place on an NFL roster.  And I dont know why the UNC receivers are laughable.  You dont just average over 20ypc over 2 years without talent like Brown did. And Newsome could 100% find a place on a team as ST'ers.  I'm not saying their future stars but there is plenty to like there. 

Anywho, I'm more interested in the names I mentioned.  

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6 minutes ago, JiF said:

Dont come into my thread and try to define my criteria, pal.  lol

Maybe I should have been more specific but when I say "late" - I meant not with our 1st/2nd round picks where it seems the marque names are going.  So sure, your system is more specific but I was keeping broad for a reason ie; the Jets can afford to go D/OL early and find a WR....late"r". Iol

Disagree on Moore, big time and Williams and Surratt can definitely find a place on an NFL roster.  And I dont know why the UNC receivers are laughable.  You dont just average over 20ypc over 2 years without talent like Brown did. And Newsome could 100% find a place on a team as ST'ers.  I'm not saying their future stars but there is plenty to like there. 

Anywho, I'm more interested in the names I mentioned.  

I thought you'd appreciate that ;)

I did touch on the ones you mentioned for the most part. Haven't given Terry his due yet, don't think much of Williams, less of Moore, but love Jackson and to a lesser extent Grimes... isn't that what you're asking? #confused.

Brown is an awful receiver with a defender in his back pocket. Awful. Unless you're watching a different NFL than i am, that's the kiss of death. As a coach, i wouldn't not start him. at all. 

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19 minutes ago, Paradis said:

I thought you'd appreciate that ;)

I did touch on the ones you mentioned for the most part. Haven't given Terry his due yet, don't think much of Williams, less of Moore, but love Jackson and to a lesser extent Grimes... isn't that what you're asking? #confused.

Brown is an awful receiver with a defender in his back pocket. Awful. Unless you're watching a different NFL than i am, that's the kiss of death. As a coach, i wouldn't not start him. at all. 

No, I was just saying we diverted to some other names but was more excited about the other guys. Never mind, not a big deal.

Disagree with your take on Brown, I've seen him catch contested balls.  I think he does a good job of throwing his hands up last second and not tipping off the defender too but most importantly, dude gets open.

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11 minutes ago, Paradis said:

I thought you'd appreciate that ;)

I did touch on the ones you mentioned for the most part. Haven't given Terry his due yet, don't think much of Williams, less of Moore, but love Jackson and to a lesser extent Grimes... isn't that what you're asking? #confused.

Brown is an awful receiver with a defender in his back pocket. Awful. Unless you're watching a different NFL than i am, that's the kiss of death. As a coach, i wouldn't not start him. at all. 

I don’t think he’s particularly good at the catch point but he gets open on cuts and subtle movements on inside releases. He stacks on every play and he’s tough enough to take contact. I just can’t get behind discounting a guy that is that good at leveraging his position when running routes. 

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11 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

I don’t think he’s particularly good at the catch point but he gets open on cuts and subtle movements on inside releases. He stacks on every play and he’s tough enough to take contact. I just can’t get behind discounting a guy that is that good at leveraging his position when running routes. 

And that's fine... i'd rather you believe what you saw... I rather enjoy being able to be frank/honest with you fellas and not worry about saying too much or making you feel bad about this or that.  I think the majority of people like Brown - some more than others. As a GM and i would be like - NOPE. I'm not going to hold my breath every time the ball travels his way on a post route with a defender trailing. I'll find someone else. 

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Simi Fehoko - Stanford - 6'4" 227 

Late round pick, not flashy.  Can go up and get it, screens, not afraid of crossing routes, a hard working physical WR that just plays his role.  Would be a good special teams, developmental player in the 6th or 7th. 

Reminds me of Jake Kumerow.

Favorite play starts at 2:35.  The UCLA game he went 16 of 21, 230 yards with 3 TDs.  Sounds like a QB stat like.

 

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9 hours ago, JiF said:

I know we've had some individual threads regarding a few prospects and talked about it a bit in the who's visiting thread but I find this particular draft class of WR's to be extremely intriguing and while I know this draft for WR is headlined by some studs; Jamar Chase, Devonta Smith, Jalen Waddle, etc.  I'm really starting to wonder if the value is late.  I'd love the Jets to stock up on offense but when I look at the way the draft is falling, if hypothetically, were to stay put, the value might be edge/CB/OL at 23 and 34.  So, this thread is to examine some later round prospects that I think could be absolute steals for the Jets, or any team for that matter.  So the sake of this conversation, I'm going to leave out the WR's I've been seeing going in rounds 1 and 2 and focus on the guys I see falling a little later.

USC -Amon-Ra. St. Brown - a highly productive career USC.  Good size, speed, hands and body control.  Could be someone who lines up wide and has a place in the NFL.

Auburn - Seth Williams - game changer at the position last year, not so much this year.  Not sure how much of it was the offense and Bo Nix.  But Seth is a big frame WR who can move the chains and has in the past displayed down field attributes.

Florida - Trevon Grimes - 6'5, 215, probably runs a sub 4.5.  Prototype WR 1.  Big, fast, can go get it, great hands, physical, blocks down field, has yac ability.  I'm seeing him dropping to 4/5 and it's nutty to me.  If he was in a system that fed him the ball and not Florida's who spreads it around, this kid could have had a monster year and probably helped his stock.  Maybe some homer here, but I love Grimes in the NFL.

FSU - Tamorrion Terry - see above, they are legit the same dude, just one wore really ugly colors in college.

Clemson - Amari Rodgers - built like a RB, this kid could be a monster in the slot in the NFL.  Again, confusing why I see him going in 4/5 round range, highly productive player with next level potential. 

Texas Tech - T.J. Vasher - similar to Terry/Grimes, a big physical specimen w/ speed.  Can play outside.  Apparently there are some character concerns but at one point I remember hearing some next level comparisons.

Ole Miss - Elijah Moore - seems destined for the slot because of his size but a highly productive shifty player that can beat you in a number of ways.

Colorado St. - Warren Steward - opted out of 2020 but dude stands at 6'6 and will run in the 4'5 range.  Had a monster season in 2019.  

 

Who you guys like? 

I like all of these guys. 

I'll add a couple of receivers I've been talking about recently as potential mid to late round 'steals'. 

Ihmir Smith-Marsette- Iowa: Great size, speed, athleticism and hands. Couldn't ask for much more in a WR when it comes to traits. He's just not very polished and comes with some off-field issues- (DUI, injury by celebrating in end zone like a dummy). However, he is also a talented returner and might contribute on special teams. Smith-Marsette is the kind of guy you will have to utilize him on special teams and figure out how to get the ball in his hands to get the most out of him. 

Jonathan Adams- Arkansas State: Another big WR at 6'3, 220 who has deep speed and is great at high pointing the ball. Former basketball player. Fantastic hands, great strength, the dude just makes plays if the ball is anywhere near him. I think his biggest weakness, like so many other rookie receivers, is route running. He's not a polished route runner and you also notice that despite his ability to make plays he doesn't gain the separation you look for in NFL caliber WR's. But for a late round flyer, I think he is worth the gamble. Another thing to note is that he seemed to suffer from sub-par QB play and got a lot of attention from opposing defenses and still put up fantastic numbers. I think Adams is the type of player who, if things click for him and he picks up the NFL offense quickly, he can really contribute early in his career. 

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I'm a big fan of Terry, because that offense killed any potential he had.  Admittedly, I'm a sucker for size/speed guys because I just think of the matchup nightmares. He has that extra gear that I love on a 9 route, can just fly by his cornerback.

I like Seth Williams as well.  

My issue is I'm not sure how they fit into the offense, as we're more likely to go with YAC/route running guys.  Both SF and LA went with YAC and Route Runners respectively as their weapon of choice for receivers.  

As @PepPepmentions, Smith-Marsette seems like a logical choice in terms of scheme fit.  He is shifty with YAC ability, but still can line up outside if need be.  I hope we double dip in this draft because I think Covid has really pushed down some receivers like Terry.  Last year, he was basically getting late first round vibe, and I think the skill set is there for him to thrive.  

 

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19 hours ago, Paradis said:

I will bet anyone 100$ to a charity of the winner's choice that Toney doesn't go round 1. Hype is 100% draft twitter manufactured. he's decent player with some unique gadget skills up his sleeve but his not viewed as more than a role player. 

Here’s an interesting excerpt from this article I just read.   Basically trying to evaluate the true draft value of Toney and Moore.  

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/what-s-the-value-for--gadget--type-receivers-such-as-kadarius-toney-and-rondale-moore

When draft analysts discuss these two prospects as potential first-round picks, they’ll use the caveat that they’ll need “creative play-callers to get them in space” or “they’ll be successful by getting the ball in their hands in multiple ways and let them work.” These two receivers will be successful with creative play-callers who will give them the football in multiple ways whether it’s quick screens or touches out of the backfield, but my concern is how many of these play-callers are truly out there? What people imploring these cautions are missing is that head coaches like Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVay, and Andy Reid don’t grow on trees; chances are Toney and Moore will go to a team that won’t have a creative play-caller like the names above. The question then becomes, can these receivers win outside in a traditional role and create separation against bigger more physical NFL defensive backs? If they can’t then it will be difficult for teams to justify selecting either in the first round, no matter how dynamic they are with the ball in their hands. 

The receivers we have seen enter the league in recent years that have had success usually have the following strengths: outstanding size (like Metcalf and Brown) or are outstanding route runners (like McLaurin, Jefferson, and Dallas Cowboys’ CeeDee Lamb). The name of the game in the NFL is consistently creating separation outside or having the size and strength to routinely make contested catches, and if a receiver can’t do one of those consistently then they’ll have a difficult time sustaining success. It’s not that Toney and Moore can’t create separation outside or make contested catches, we just haven’t seen them do it consistently in college 

Every year it seems like we have players who we all agree are excellent in college and have exciting ability with the ball in their hands. These players will usually get the “gadget” label, and the team that drafts them will then have to be creative, playing to their strengths. The issue is for every Deebo Samuel, there are five Tavon Austin’s; it is undoubtedly a risk in investing high draft capital in a gadget player. While Toney and Moore are both really good players, there are lingering questions about their ability to be a true WR1 at the next level.

Both of these players can have great success playing in the slot and winning with speed and quickness inside. They’ll also be huge assets on special teams as either kick or punt returners, but due to their lack of size, catch radius, and risk of injury, their true value lies somewhere between picks 40-55 or so

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3 hours ago, sec101row23 said:

Here’s an interesting excerpt from this article I just read.   Basically trying to evaluate the true draft value of Toney and Moore.  

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/what-s-the-value-for--gadget--type-receivers-such-as-kadarius-toney-and-rondale-moore

 

First off -- it's nice to read something meaningful from TDN again... i'd really fallen out of love with their product. They marketed themselves as a legit professional product but quickly fell into amateur ego pissing matches and catered to the Twitter crowd.... 

But this year they've tripled their staff, including former NFL scouts and such -- so better product. 

But yes, this one was written by a form NFL staffer/scout and it's obvious too that this isn't a former Fantasy Football arm chair GM... I agree with a lot of what's outlined here (and begs the question - why are so many team doomed to repeat mistakes? You have 10 Tavon Austins fail, and someone will still try it again)... I talked to Ben Allbright recently about Toney, basically asking if league perception he's heard is way off from "fans"... he confirmed that speculation -- that being Toney is a gadget player and no where near round 1. Which was a relief to hear. 

I can't say enough about this excerpt:

Quote

The question then becomes, can these receivers win outside in a traditional role and create separation against bigger more physical NFL defensive backs? If they can’t then it will be difficult for teams to justify selecting either in the first round, no matter how dynamic they are with the ball in their hands. 

100000% why i can't get behind nonsense like Laviska Shenault in round 1... a player their own TDN lauded as a top 20 pick last year.

PS... never thought of Rondale Moore as a gadget player. I'd like to think that's because my eyes are telling him he;s the real deal. He doesnt' need to run corners/posts/seams to legitimize his role in the NFL. Doesnt' mean he can't though. 

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38 minutes ago, Paradis said:

First off -- it's nice to read something meaningful from TDN again... i'd really fallen out of love with their product. They marketed themselves as a legit professional product but quickly fell into amateur ego pissing matches and catered to the Twitter crowd.... 

But this year they've tripled their staff, including former NFL scouts and such -- so better product. 

But yes, this one was written by a form NFL staffer/scout and it's obvious too that this isn't a former Fantasy Football arm chair GM... I agree with a lot of what's outlined here (and begs the question - why are so many team doomed to repeat mistakes? You have 10 Tavon Austins fail, and someone will still try it again)... I talked to Ben Allbright recently about Toney, basically asking if league perception he's heard is way off from "fans"... he confirmed that speculation -- that being Toney is a gadget player and no where near round 1. Which was a relief to hear. 

I can't say enough about this excerpt:

100000% why i can't get behind nonsense like Laviska Shenault in round 1... a player their own TDN lauded as a top 20 pick last year.

PS... never thought of Rondale Moore as a gadget player. I'd like to think that's because my eyes are telling him he;s the real deal. He doesnt' need to run corners/posts/seams to legitimize his role in the NFL. Doesnt' mean he can't though. 

Agree about the guys at TDN, they've been doing some better work this year.   When it comes to Moore, I see a lot more Brandin Cooks in him that Tavon Austin, I do worry about the injuries and only one year of production though.  All of that should keep him firmly in round 2.   

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23 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Weak class after the top end guys unlike LAST YEAR.   🤬

Yeah but we have picks at 23 and 33.  There’s a bunch of can’t miss guys like Toney/Bateman/Waddle that will be available at one or both spots 

And if we take Pitts at 2 holy cow is our receiving corps going to be nasty 

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On 3/3/2021 at 10:59 AM, JiF said:

FWIW I remember some talk about if Justin Jefferson would struggle getting separation in the NFL because he almost exclusively worked out of the slot at LSU....he was a monster this year and lined up all over.  

I think if these kids got the size and physical make up, they can transition.  

Theres a lot that goes into it but Jefferson understanding of leverage and how to exploit it and how to work defenders blind spot really separated him.  He had a really good sense of it at LSU and from the end of the season to camp he made insane progress training his footwork.  

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