Joe Douglas should part with coveted draft capital to get Deshaun Watson

[The Count of Monte Cristo]

4 hours ago, Beerfish said:

So now Watson is better than Mahomme, whoa daddy.    Watson s a future HOF whoa daddy.

This is simply a merry go round discussion for all of us.  The people that love Watson will down play the 4 win year.  Will down play the loss of team building resources and up play the effect of FA.  The opposite will occur with the people not in favour of going after Watson.

On the one hand you talk about talent on the team and with the other, you discount the CLEAR advantage Mahomes has over Watson in EVERY aspect including worlds apart coaching and yet he was still more efficient last year. So the Daddy is not as whoa as you think.

30 mil is REASONABLE for a QB of his caliber. What's Mahomes getting? 45? You think the Chiefs are ripping their hair out over the prospect of building da team? In reality building da team is one of the LEAST efficient ways to go about winning on a consistent basis in the NFL. Having a franchise QB is not. As a matter of fact, an almost exclusively consistent trait of teams that have been consistently successful over the last 25 years or more in the NFL is having a franchise QB.

Not sure how you pin the losses on Watson AT ALL. It's no coincidence that the Texans also happened to have one of the worst defenses in the last 30 years.

 

[chad2coles]

2 hours ago, Beerfish said:

- Great QB, no talent team = 4 wins

Nowhere did the article or anyone on this site suggest the Jets field a roster similar to the Texans last year.

2 hours ago, Beerfish said:

- Draft is a crap shoot so no big loss with all of those 1st rounders!  Build around Watson on a talentless team with all those 2nd and 3rd rounders!

Nowhere did the article or anyone on this site suggest the Jets should trade all their 1st round picks for Watson and only fill the roster with 2nd and 3rd rounders.

2 hours ago, Beerfish said:

- After the trade and our remaining cap space that has taken a hit, sign ALL the best FA!

Nowhere did the article or anyone on this site suggest the Jets sign all the best free agents.  But, the Jets will have the most cap room in the league after cuts, and there will be more quality free agents with less teams with cap room to compete for that talent than in almost any other offseason.

2 hours ago, Beerfish said:

- Lawrence is awesome sauce! None of the other QBs are any good!

Nowhere did the article or anyone on this site suggest Lawrence is the only good QB in this draft.  But Lawrence and the other QBs projected to go in the first round are all more likely to be out of the league in 5 years than be as productive as Watson has been to start his career.

2 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Kirk Cousins has almost identical numbers as watson.  Stafford for years put up big numbers.

Watson's numbers are better than Cousins and Watson is 25 years old.  Football players tend to improve as they enter their prime.  Cousins didn't play a full season until he was 27.

1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

Normal draft capital is the key one, everything hinges on the cost to obtain Watson.  If we are giving up a 1st this year and 1st next year that leaves us with 'normal draft capital' and you make the deal for sure.

So if the Jets traded #2, #34, and a '22 1st rounder for Watson, but then pick up a 2nd round pick by trading Darnold, you would be good with that?  

 

[Biggs]

1 hour ago, jetstream23 said:

That's one way.

Or, if you want to build through the Draft keep Darnold and turn the #2 pick into three more picks in the Top 45 and a  1st next year.

 

You can do both and get even more pics.  You can even trade down multiple times and got more pics.  You could even trade down and move back up and trade Darnold and a pick to get a QB who slides on draft day.  

I just think if we don't get a QB in this draft in the first round and stick with Darnold it's going to be a really ugly year.  All the good will Darnold has gotten because he's a nice kid will get ugly if he doesn't play really well.   He doesn't seem like a mentally tough kid who's ready to take on Ghosts and the NY Post back page. 

[The Count of Monte Cristo]

56 minutes ago, chad2coles said:

Nowhere did the article or anyone on this site suggest the Jets field a roster similar to the Texans last year.

Nowhere did the article or anyone on this site suggest the Jets should trade all their 1st round picks for Watson and only fill the roster with 2nd and 3rd rounders.

Nowhere did the article or anyone on this site suggest the Jets sign all the best free agents.  But, the Jets will have the most cap room in the league after cuts, and there will be more quality free agents with less teams with cap room to compete for that talent than in almost any other offseason.

Nowhere did the article or anyone on this site suggest Lawrence is the only good QB in this draft.  But Lawrence and the other QBs projected to go in the first round are all more likely to be out of the league in 5 years than be as productive as Watson has been to start his career.

Watson's numbers are better than Cousins and Watson is 25 years old.  Football players tend to improve as they enter their prime.  Cousins didn't play a full season until he was 27.

So if the Jets traded #2, #34, and a '22 1st rounder for Watson, but then pick up a 2nd round pick by trading Darnold, you would be good with that?  

 

This is the kind of post I wish I had made.

[JohnnyLV]

1 hour ago, NYJ1 said:

I'm prepared to offer the #2 overall, #34, and Sam Darnold. That's essentially THREE 1st round draft choices, a high second, and a player worth  late 1st in trade. Now that may not be what the Texans claim they want but their demands are ludicrous. They'll never get that amount for Watson.

I would consider that trade. I would still probably take Wilson but that seems to be the compensation I could justify

[varjet]

3 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Remember when we got two free first round picks and around $90 mil in extra cap space by putting Jamal Adams out on the curb? Because those free found goodies are the great bulk of the return for Deshaun Watson. Add in the pick you get for Darnold, and you’re effectively trading Zack Wilson straight up for Deshaun Watson.

I don't really have a handle on whether we think Lawrence/Wilson/Fields is a better or worse group than Trubisky/Mahomes/Watson or Mayfield/Darnold/Allen/Jackson/Rosen.  Based on what we knew when,  think trading a top QB for a guaranteed Mayfield or Darnold on a cheaper contract may have been viewed as ok.

But deep down, if you said you trade Adams and 1.2 for Watson, I think that is an easy trade to comprehend.  So give the Texans what we got for Adams, plus 2.  We keep our next year's first.   That is the MOST the Jets should pay.  

[Philc1]

2 hours ago, T0mShane said:

The Tampa Bay Buccaneers were 7-9 last year and then they got a QB

Holy cow I had no idea we had Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, Antonio Brown and Shaq Lawson on the roster

 

The only guy on our roster even in the same stratosphere with them is QW and everyone wants to throw him in a package with 7 first round picks 

[sourceworx]

How will we ever find a right tackle if we trade both first rounders for Deshaun Watson???????

[varjet]

1 minute ago, sourceworx said:

How will we ever find a right tackle if we trade both first rounders for Deshaun Watson???????

If Fant and Edoga are playing RT next year, that is not the biggest hole on this team.  

RG and LG are a different story.  

[jetstream23]

48 minutes ago, Biggs said:

You can do both and get even more pics.  You can even trade down multiple times and got more pics.  You could even trade down and move back up and trade Darnold and a pick to get a QB who slides on draft day.  

I just think if we don't get a QB in this draft in the first round and stick with Darnold it's going to be a really ugly year.  All the good will Darnold has gotten because he's a nice kid will get ugly if he doesn't play really well.   He doesn't seem like a mentally tough kid who's ready to take on Ghosts and the NY Post back page. 

Fair opinion.  But I don't believe whether he's a nice kid or not has any bearing on what the coaches and GM think about him.  I think there's been some really deep film study, lots of looks at the All-22 tape from probably every game he's played as a Pro (and prior to that) as the Jets braintrust asks itself, "Why did this play go wrong?  Why did Sam make this throw to this particular player at this particular time? What was the read and the decision-making process here?"

Quite simply, what the Jets need to figure out is what we've all been trying to figure out.... Is Sam just a subpar QB who was drafted too high?  Or, was the rookie who seemed to be ascending in Jeremy Bates (Kyle Shanahan type) system at the end of 2018, and that started a precipitous fall afterwards severely hampered by bad coaching and bad personnel?

In other words, can this QB work if we go back to the kind of system he had in 2018 and we surround him with better players?  Can we Ryan Tannehill this guy?

[Beerfish]

28 minutes ago, sourceworx said:

How will we ever find a right tackle if we trade both first rounders for Deshaun Watson???????

Massive needs for the New York Jets football club:

CB

DE pass rusher

WR

TE

RB

OG

C

RT

QB

Also might need a S and ILB

This team has holes all over the roster.

[jetstream23]

27 minutes ago, sourceworx said:

How will we ever find a right tackle if we trade both first rounders for Deshaun Watson???????

There are something like 9 or 10 OTs who look to be worth picking in the Top 2 rounds, including guys like Rashawn Slater and Aijah Vera-Tucker who can play both OT and OG.  Of the guys outside the top 15 or 20 like Sam Cosmi, Mayfield, Jenkins, etc. I don't know who are the best suited for RT (or can play both LT and RT) but there should be some options.  I'd have no problem using the #34 (2nd round) pick on a RT after we've hopefully done well with the 1st round picks (ex. WR, CB, Edge, etc.).  Below are OT rankings from PFN...

 

[MykePM]

2 hours ago, chad2coles said:

So if the Jets traded #2, #34, and a '22 1st rounder for Watson, but then pick up a 2nd round pick by trading Darnold, you would be good with that?  

You can even toss in our extra 3rd this year to sweeten the pot, and we'd still essentially have a full draft complement this year and next (and ongoing) after acquiring Deshaun Watson.  I'd even toss Bless Austin in to allow Houston to say "we even got a young, cheap starting CB in the deal". 

So, the deal would be:

• 2 firsts (including the 2nd overall pick this year, and their choice of non-Lawrence QBs)
• 1 second (2nd in the round, almost a first)
• 1 third
• Bless Austin

This assumes the trade of Darnold for a 2nd.  If we could get a low first for him, we can include that instead and make it 3 firsts instead of 2 firsts and a second.

That deal may very well walk the line between what Houston would accept and what Joe D can give up without crippling us.

 

[DetroitRed]

Any doubts the Texans will be calling the Jets in a matter of weeks to inquire about Zach Wilson?  We are now in the drivers seat.  I think they can get him for 2 ones.  Do they do it?

[pointman]

I am real tired of all this Deshaun touching my tip and pulling back. Real tired. Give me one of those young available quarterbacks and lets find out what we got. 

[Charlie Brown]

1 hour ago, Philc1 said:

Holy cow I had no idea we had Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, Antonio Brown and Shaq Lawson on the roster

 

The only guy on our roster even in the same stratosphere with them is QW and everyone wants to throw him in a package with 7 first round picks 

The same can be said even for what Watson had on offense in TX!!

People, because we are fans of the Jets are delusional about the core talent level on this team........

[New York Mick]

5 hours ago, Biggs said:

If you want to build through the draft trade Darnold for Draft Capital.  

That’s smarter then trading away years of top pick for a player that might not be happy if he’s not allowed to sit in the draft room to advice on who to pick or decide who the new coaching staff will be so he refuses to play after getting a huge contract. 

[T0mShane]

4 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Houston was 4-12 last year and they had a QB, an apparent sure fire hof who is better than mahommes apparently.

List the reasons the Texans went 4-12 last year and let me know when you get to Deshaun Watson.

[doitny]

1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

Massive needs for the New York Jets football club:

CB

DE pass rusher

WR

TE

RB

OG

C

RT

QB

Also might need a S and ILB

This team has holes all over the roster.

KC starters

#1 picks - 3

#2 picks - 5

#3 picks - 3

#4 picks - 5

#5 picks - 1

#6 picks - 0

#7 picks - 2

and 3 undrafted FA .

we had 4 #1 picks to start. 

why cant we do it like KC and the tons of other successful teams. TB had 4 #1s to start. and last year they won 7 games. 

like another poster said, if JD cant find talent in rds 2-7 he should resign now.

[clayton163v]

6 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Merely the same stuff posted over and over again by the 'All in on Watson' group on these forums.

And the same unanswered questions are not explained.

- Great QB, no talent team = 4 wins

- Draft is a crap shoot so no big loss with all of those 1st rounders!  Build around Watson on a talentless team with all those 2nd and 3rd rounders!

- After the trade and our remaining cap space that has taken a hit, sign ALL the best FA!

- Lawrence is awesome sauce! None of the other QBs are any good!

Very good.  But you left out that they also hate Sam Darnold.  A young player who was expensive to acquire, represents a sunk cost and is not as bad as many contend.

 

[Larz]

The question obviously is how much but also complicated by his contract 

just don’t want to become the Lions 

[T0mShane]

2 hours ago, varjet said:

I don't really have a handle on whether we think Lawrence/Wilson/Fields is a better or worse group than Trubisky/Mahomes/Watson or Mayfield/Darnold/Allen/Jackson/Rosen.  Based on what we knew when,  think trading a top QB for a guaranteed Mayfield or Darnold on a cheaper contract may have been viewed as ok.

But deep down, if you said you trade Adams and 1.2 for Watson, I think that is an easy trade to comprehend.  So give the Texans what we got for Adams, plus 2.  We keep our next year's first.   That is the MOST the Jets should pay.  

I think that’d be the great bulk of the package going back: #2, #23, a first next year, and some change. I think Watson will be traded this offseason and that he would accept a deal to the Jets and Douglas cannot turn away from a Wilson-Watson swap because of whoever he’d lose by trading 23 and the late- to mid-first in 2022. It’d be worse than drafting a strong safety with Mahomes and Watson on the board in the first place.

[T0mShane]

2 hours ago, Philc1 said:

Holy cow I had no idea we had Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, Antonio Brown and Shaq Lawson on the roster

 

The only guy on our roster even in the same stratosphere with them is QW and everyone wants to throw him in a package with 7 first round picks 

Hey what do all those great Bucs players look like with Sam Darnold throwing the ball at them?

[clayton163v]

6 hours ago, johnnysd said:

The infuriating thing to me is that people are fundamentally too afraid to take a risk and take a QB at #2. If our evaluation on any of the QBs is that he is a franchise guy just take him and do EVERYTHING you can to develop him. Let's face it with the horrendous mismanagement of this team in drafting coaching free agency, had we picked Mahomes with the #6 pick, we might be having the same conversation we having now about Sam. Free agents fail not because the evaluation is so far off in many cases, but because the situation that player went into sucked. I think we have a good situation finally for a QB to come in. Cannot live in fear in the NFL. Trading for Watson is a franchise killer. Does anyone seriously think he won't be a prima dona here as well? Maybe he waits a year before using the same antics for a new contract.

When you have a 500 team, you can take risks to position your team to make a run at the playoffs.  When you are a 2-14 team, you HAVE to use your draft resources carefully and build your team from the inside out.  That means the five offensive lineman and the front seven on defense.  We simply aren't good enough to take risks and throw away young players who were expensive to acquire.   Sam Darnold cost three second round picks and a high first round pick to acquire.  To replace him after three seasons is a poor use of our precious and very limited capitol.  To mortgage the future to replace him is the sort of thing that hamstrings a club for years.  We have four first round picks in the next two years.  Five if you count this year's second rounder at the top of  the round.  We will be a much better team if we hit on those picks.  To do that we need to be boring and predictable.  Not flashy and bold.  We are several seasons away.  I wish it wasn't so, but it is the truth.

[clayton163v]

5 hours ago, T0mShane said:

The Tampa Bay Buccaneers were 7-9 last year and then they got a QB

The Bucs were solid inside and out.  They were in a position to make a run.  We are not in a position to make a run and we are not a 500 team.

[clayton163v]

5 hours ago, derp said:

I mean, I do think that Idzik understood the importance of the draft. He just absolutely sucked at drafting.

Idzik also failed to understand that you have to build relationships with the other GMs and treat them fairly.  He was the sort of GM who called up to offer a late round pick for your young starter or to propose a lopsided trade.  After a while, teams stopped returning his calls.  You have to give value to get value.  To get value you have to give value.  It is why Douglas was able to move around in the draft.  Remember, he does not just trade down, he had a trade up from #11 to #9 arranged.  Only when it was clear that one of the offensive lineman would be available did he cancel the deal. 

[Beerfish]

18 minutes ago, doitny said:

KC starters

#1 picks - 3

#2 picks - 5

#3 picks - 3

#4 picks - 5

#5 picks - 1

#6 picks - 0

#7 picks - 2

and 3 undrafted FA .

we had 4 #1 picks to start. 

why cant we do it like KC and the tons of other successful teams. TB had 4 #1s to start. and last year they won 7 games. 

like another poster said, if JD cant find talent in rds 2-7 he should resign now.

The very same people who say the stuff about rounds 2-7 also say forget all 1st rounders because they are all not sure things and a high bust rate. Which the hell is it?

High picks have a better chance of panning out.

High picks have a better chance of providing more than 'starters'

Who are the best young players on the NY Jets right now?  Where were they picked?

 

[T0mShane]

10 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

The very same people who say the stuff about rounds 2-7 also say forget all 1st rounders because they are all not sure things and a high bust rate. Which the hell is it?

How are these ideas incompatible?

[T0mShane]

38 minutes ago, clayton163v said:

The Bucs were solid inside and out.  They were in a position to make a run.  We are not in a position to make a run and we are not a 500 team.

My feeling is that the Jets 2021 roster will perform significantly better with Deshaun Watson than it will with an outright liability in Darnold. 

[clayton163v]

23 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

My feeling is that the Jets 2021 roster will perform significantly better with Deshaun Watson than it will with an outright liability in Darnold. 

And I believe that three first round picks - including the #2 - and more will improve the club far more that swapping QBs.  I think you know it too.  

[NYJ1]

5 hours ago, Jet2020 said:

Is there a GM that doesn’t value draft picks? Of course it’s important. Acknowledging that fact doesn’t make you some genius. 

No it doesn't. But what does make said GM a genius is actually drafting well! Do you actually think I missed that part you f%&-ing boob? Having a GM that understands the importance AND drafts well is Football 101. It's the very job description, dingbat.....

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, clayton163v said:

And I believe that three first round picks - including the #2 - and more will improve the club far more that swapping QBs.  I think you know it too.  

No. Nope. No.

[T0mShane]

Just now, T0mShane said:

No. Nope. No.

You people play way too much Madden.

[greenwichjetfan]

1 hour ago, NYJ1 said:

you f%&-ing boob

I didn't know people still used this as an insult. Good to know. 

[Dunnie]

8 hours ago, NYJ1 said:

Joe Douglas values draft picks as much as any general manager in the NFL.

He maximized New York’s draft capital during his first draft running the show last offseason, swinging deals to accumulate a bevy of picks to address numerous needs. He also loaded up the cupboard in the Jamal Adams trade, landing two first-round picks and a third-round selection in this year’s draft.

When asked if he would be willing to part ways with some of the draft picks he meticulously compiled to land a star player– a question linked to Deshaun Watson’s situation with the Texans — Douglas hunkered down and reiterated his stance on the importance of rebuilding through the draft.

“Ultimately for us to get to where the great teams are, the most consistent teams are, you do that through the draft,” Douglas said this week, per the New York Post. “It’s the most team-friendly market in sports. For us to really be that team that’s consistently competing for Super Bowls, we have to hit on our draft picks.”

Those words don’t rule out the possibility of the Jets making a move to bring Watson to the Big Apple, but they don’t exactly inspire confidence in Douglas doing so, either. Giving up multiple high draft picks to facilitate a trade for Watson doesn’t jibe with Douglas’ philosophy of building through the draft, and he doesn’t seem too intent on going against his desired way of returning the Jets to prominence.

There might be a catch that lands Watson in Gotham Green next season, though.

If there is ever a player Douglas should bend his own rules to get, it’s Watson. The 25-year-old is coming off a career season and is arguably a top-five quarterback. Players of his ilk don’t become available every offseason. Considering New York’s long-standing quarterback woes, Douglas should be the first general manager in line to acquire his services.

Having an abundance of draft picks is nice, but the draft has long been proven to be an inexact science. Early returns on Douglas’ first draft class as Jets general manager are encouraging, but there is no guarantee his draft success continues. Any draft pick comes with an element of risk. That’s not the case with Watson, who is a proven commodity.

There is no doubt that Douglas is going to do everything in his power to figure out New York’s quarterback situation this offseason. However, his core football philosophies could stand in his way of choosing the best option to do so. Entrusting Sam Darnold to thrive under Mike LaFleur’s watch and surrounding him with weapons in free agency and the draft is a major roll of the dice. Selecting any quarterback not named Trevor Lawrence with the No. 2 overall pick is as well.

No ... no he really shouldn't