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Can't say I'm THAT surprised. Isn't he a former track star? The question is how does that translate to the football field. I'm always skeptical. Track guys are not just fast but they are really good at running the 40, if that makes sense. Doesn't always make them fast on the football field. 

Having said that, I'm pretty high on Stokes and would not be upset if he ended up in Green and White next year. 

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11 minutes ago, PepPep said:

Can't say I'm THAT surprised. Isn't he a former track star? The question is how does that translate to the football field. I'm always skeptical. Track guys are not just fast but they are really good at running the 40, if that makes sense. Doesn't always make them fast on the football field. 

Having said that, I'm pretty high on Stokes and would not be upset if he ended up in Green and White next year. 

Yes.  He was a track star in HS so its not that surprising.  And I also agree with you that he does not play that fast when you watch him.  He could be a nice option for us at 34.

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Big time for the kid.  I'll admit ive done very little work other than surface film on the CB's in this draft.  I have to go back and really look.   I can say that a guy I know in the industry that is training guys said that he believes Jaycee Horn will be the best corner in this class.  I do believe though he's friends with one of the trainers working with him so take that for what its worth lol

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Good topic, one thing I am undecided about is the quality of our present CBs.  We need one in this draft for sure maybe more.

Bryce Hall looked pretty good for a rookie coming off an injury, but he has to progress as we have had decent looking rookie cbs that faded before.  Bless Austin I thought would take a better step last year.

I look at #23 and #34 and think pick a CB or pass rusher at one of those spots whoever the best prospect is.

 

 

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48 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Good topic, one thing I am undecided about is the quality of our present CBs.  We need one in this draft for sure maybe more.

Bryce Hall looked pretty good for a rookie coming off an injury, but he has to progress as we have had decent looking rookie cbs that faded before.  Bless Austin I thought would take a better step last year.

I look at #23 and #34 and think pick a CB or pass rusher at one of those spots whoever the best prospect is.

 

 

We definitely need a major upgrade at the CB position. Bless Austin and Hall are good depth guys. Neither are necessarily a shut down corner. Wouldn’t be surprised if we used pick 23 or 34 on a top tier CB

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I mentioned this in a different thread, I’m really impressed with Kelvin Joseph. He’s definitely in my top three, and I can see a scenario where he winds up being one of the best in class. He plays in the wide receivers back pocket the way Revis stayed 

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Don’t the cover 3 teams often wait on corners? Feel like they target bigger, longer guys more than speed. It’s a little harder to wait than it used to be since more teams run the scheme but if memory serves they really stock up on mid-late round corners since speed is the big thing that pushes guys up boards and it’s less of a focal point for this system.

Honestly think that Hall and Austin both fit and someone like Jackson might as well.

I won’t be distraught if they take a corner early but I don’t think it’s a huge priority position in the scheme like the man heavy systems the Jets used to run. Feel like with that group of young scheme fits and the massive needs of the team corner is a great position to kick down the curb one more year.

I’d much rather they go hard on the pass rush. Linebacker needs a big overhaul too, and a lot of DT’s are going to be FA’s after this season so I think Douglas is going to want to stay head of that and draft a couple guys in the mid-late rounds unless he has a replacement for Fatukasi. They probably need a rotational three tech behind Williams too. 

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7 hours ago, derp said:

Don’t the cover 3 teams often wait on corners? Feel like they target bigger, longer guys more than speed. It’s a little harder to wait than it used to be since more teams run the scheme but if memory serves they really stock up on mid-late round corners since speed is the big thing that pushes guys up boards and it’s less of a focal point for this system.

Honestly think that Hall and Austin both fit and someone like Jackson might as well.

I won’t be distraught if they take a corner early but I don’t think it’s a huge priority position in the scheme like the man heavy systems the Jets used to run. Feel like with that group of young scheme fits and the massive needs of the team corner is a great position to kick down the curb one more year.

I’d much rather they go hard on the pass rush. Linebacker needs a big overhaul too, and a lot of DT’s are going to be FA’s after this season so I think Douglas is going to want to stay head of that and draft a couple guys in the mid-late rounds unless he has a replacement for Fatukasi. They probably need a rotational three tech behind Williams too. 

Saleh doesn’t really run Cover 3 or single high formations anymore. He transitioned to zone match, split high with a wide-9 base like 2 seasons ago. Doesn’t mean there won’t be Cover 3 concepts but there supposed to be emphasis on quarters coverage and zone-match against teams running spread concepts. 

Saleh has mentioned he needs CBs that will shut down 3rd down plays by themselves and I think we’ll be on the market for a CB with pick 23 or 34.

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1 hour ago, kdels62 said:

Saleh doesn’t really run Cover 3 or single high formations anymore. He transitioned to zone match, split high with a wide-9 base like 2 seasons ago. Doesn’t mean there won’t be Cover 3 concepts but there supposed to be emphasis on quarters coverage and zone-match against teams running spread concepts. 

Saleh has mentioned he needs CBs that will shut down 3rd down plays by themselves and I think we’ll be on the market for a CB with pick 23 or 34.

Fair enough. Stylistically he’s using corners similar to those old defenses though, right? Big, long, less focus on speed. Sherman was never fast and he’s old. They didn’t seem to prioritize corner much.

Thought he said get stops - which is a distinction that maybe has a difference and maybe doesn’t.

We will certainly see. I think better to build a defense inside out and I’d rather them kick it down the curb. Not going to be competing for a title this year, don’t really care if the corner play is bad.

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16 minutes ago, derp said:

Fair enough. Stylistically he’s using corners similar to those old defenses though, right? Big, long, less focus on speed. Sherman was never fast and he’s old. They didn’t seem to prioritize corner much.

Thought he said get stops - which is a distinction that maybe has a difference and maybe doesn’t.

We will certainly see. I think better to build a defense inside out and I’d rather them kick it down the curb. Not going to be competing for a title this year, don’t really care if the corner play is bad.

You might be right and I just interpreted it to mean that he wants greater CB play. 

There’s been a trend towards taking CBs early in the past few years and I think this draft is particularly top heavy. There’s good value for pick 23 and 34 but there’s not much depth outside that range. 

Caleb Farley, Jaycee Horn, Kelvin Joseph, Patrick Surtain are the first round talents that fit the long CB type that Douglas and Saleh favor.

Greg Newsome, Eric Stokes, Ifeatu Melinfonwu, George Campbell are the second round guys. 

Elijah Molden, Asante Samuel Jr, Aaron Robinson are the best slot guys that can go day 2. 

After that the quality is more of a toss up. I honestly think Douglas wants at least 1 of the first two lists pretty badly. 

 

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3 hours ago, kdels62 said:

You might be right and I just interpreted it to mean that he wants greater CB play. 

There’s been a trend towards taking CBs early in the past few years and I think this draft is particularly top heavy. There’s good value for pick 23 and 34 but there’s not much depth outside that range. 

Caleb Farley, Jaycee Horn, Kelvin Joseph, Patrick Surtain are the first round talents that fit the long CB type that Douglas and Saleh favor.

Greg Newsome, Eric Stokes, Ifeatu Melinfonwu, George Campbell are the second round guys. 

Elijah Molden, Asante Samuel Jr, Aaron Robinson are the best slot guys that can go day 2. 

After that the quality is more of a toss up. I honestly think Douglas wants at least 1 of the first two lists pretty badly. 

 

Yeah it’s interesting to read your perspective because I’d honestly completely discounted corner and it’s good for me to reevaluate.

My thought had been SF always went so so hard on the DL because the scheme was really predicated on getting pressure with the front four and corners were less of a focal point than a man heavy scheme and safety a little more important.

Kind of more the big long corners who run 4.45ish and have good agility go in the first couple rounds but the more 4.55ish guys and/or more linear slide to the mid rounds but they’re still adequate for the scheme. I kind of think that applies for running more quarters and zone match too but curious to dig a little more into how SF invested in the position.

I absolutely still have corner fatigue after Rex and to a lesser extent Bowles too and there’s possibly some bias creeping in on my part.

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13 hours ago, kdels62 said:

You might be right and I just interpreted it to mean that he wants greater CB play. 

There’s been a trend towards taking CBs early in the past few years and I think this draft is particularly top heavy. There’s good value for pick 23 and 34 but there’s not much depth outside that range. 

Caleb Farley, Jaycee Horn, Kelvin Joseph, Patrick Surtain are the first round talents that fit the long CB type that Douglas and Saleh favor.

Greg Newsome, Eric Stokes, Ifeatu Melinfonwu, George Campbell are the second round guys. 

Elijah Molden, Asante Samuel Jr, Aaron Robinson are the best slot guys that can go day 2. 

After that the quality is more of a toss up. I honestly think Douglas wants at least 1 of the first two lists pretty badly. 

 

I think its fair to watch for Jaycee horn if he makes it to 23.  I have pegged 23 for an edge guy, but if Horn is there i can see them taking him. He's got the size you'd look for and can basically do anything coverage wise.  23 is almost a more interesting pick than 2 even with the trade down scenario. 

Pretty locked in jets will either take Wilson at 2 or trade down and look at Chase, Pitts, or Waddle if they trade out of the top 10,  I can see slater getting some burn there as well. Otherwise 23 is really where the speculation begins because youre in a nice spot for an EDGE player, a potential spot for a CB, possibly an OL and even WR could come into play if none are taken with that first pick.  

 

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24 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

I think its fair to watch for Jaycee horn if he makes it to 23.  I have pegged 23 for an edge guy, but if Horn is there i can see them taking him. He's got the size you'd look for and can basically do anything coverage wise.  23 is almost a more interesting pick than 2 even with the trade down scenario. 

Pretty locked in jets will either take Wilson at 2 or trade down and look at Chase, Pitts, or Waddle if they trade out of the top 10,  I can see slater getting some burn there as well. Otherwise 23 is really where the speculation begins because youre in a nice spot for an EDGE player, a potential spot for a CB, possibly an OL and even WR could come into play if none are taken with that first pick.  

 

Obviously a lot depends on testing numbers for Edge players but I think there’s a small window for Edge at 23. I think the question becomes is Jaelan Phillips available or is Kwity Paye available. I can’t think of anyone else that would work for us in that range. If those two are still there sprint the card up to podium. If they’re not I don’t feel any other player to be a fit scheme-wise and talent wise. 

23 in this draft is either in good range to get a guy that dropped or reach for a guy that we could probably get later. A trade back would be ideal. I shortlist Alijah Vera Tucker, Jaelan Phillips, Kwity Paye, Jaycee Horn, Kelvin Joseph, Zaven Collins as reasonable players in that spot.  Joseph and Collins can also probably be had at 34.

The picks I’d be against at 23 are RB, either Etienne or Harris and WR. I think RB is always a fool’s errand and I think WR quality at the top of round 1 is the same as you’ll get through the top of round 3.

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1 hour ago, kdels62 said:

Obviously a lot depends on testing numbers for Edge players but I think there’s a small window for Edge at 23. I think the question becomes is Jaelan Phillips available or is Kwity Paye available. I can’t think of anyone else that would work for us in that range. If those two are still there sprint the card up to podium. If they’re not I don’t feel any other player to be a fit scheme-wise and talent wise. 

23 in this draft is either in good range to get a guy that dropped or reach for a guy that we could probably get later. A trade back would be ideal. I shortlist Alijah Vera Tucker, Jaelan Phillips, Kwity Paye, Jaycee Horn, Kelvin Joseph, Zaven Collins as reasonable players in that spot.  Joseph and Collins can also probably be had at 34.

The picks I’d be against at 23 are RB, either Etienne or Harris and WR. I think RB is always a fool’s errand and I think WR quality at the top of round 1 is the same as you’ll get through the top of round 3.

I agree, I have seen some mocks where Kwity Paye is in that general range,  I think those two players can be in play there for sure, may go higher though if they test well.   

I think youre right though in your assessment of players to look at in that spot.  I agree though Joseph and Collins I see as more second round guys rather than at 23 but I could see a trade down from that spot potentially if certain guys arent available.   I just happen to think it becomes a more intriguing spot strategically as we get closer to the draft because we kind of have a good sense of what will happen with 2 or even in the event of a trade down from 2.  23 to me is a complete hodge podge of possibilities. 

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4 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

I agree, I have seen some mocks where Kwity Paye is in that general range,  I think those two players can be in play there for sure, may go higher though if they test well.   

I think youre right though in your assessment of players to look at in that spot.  I agree though Joseph and Collins I see as more second round guys rather than at 23 but I could see a trade down from that spot potentially if certain guys arent available.   I just happen to think it becomes a more intriguing spot strategically as we get closer to the draft because we kind of have a good sense of what will happen with 2 or even in the event of a trade down from 2.  23 to me is a complete hodge podge of possibilities. 

I’d just like to see Darnold traded so we can focus on the real drama of this draft for the team which is “what’re we gonna do with 23 and 34?”

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1 minute ago, kdels62 said:

I’d just like to see Darnold traded so we can focus on the real drama of this draft for the team which is “what’re we gonna do with 23 and 34?”

haha i mean i think we'll get some more clarity after wilsons pro day on the 26th.  Everything I've heard is the leaning (even if it was slight leaning) was towards keeping sam and trading down, but Wilson could change a lot of minds with an outstanding pro day and great interviews.  We'll see but thats kind of the date I'm looking at to get more clarity other than the 60/40 or 50/50 iv'e heard. 

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2 hours ago, kdels62 said:

Obviously a lot depends on testing numbers for Edge players but I think there’s a small window for Edge at 23. I think the question becomes is Jaelan Phillips available or is Kwity Paye available. I can’t think of anyone else that would work for us in that range. If those two are still there sprint the card up to podium. If they’re not I don’t feel any other player to be a fit scheme-wise and talent wise. 

 

What about Rousseau?  he's a bit more of an enigma, but his size/speed numbers are almost identical to these guys.

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1 minute ago, nycdan said:

What about Rousseau?  he's a bit more of an enigma, but his size/speed numbers are almost identical to these guys.

I just can’t watch his tape and get excited. He’s stiff and slow at the snap. I just don’t want to be the team tasked with developing him.

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20 hours ago, David Harris said:

If Caleb Farley really drops into the 20’s because of the diskectomy  I think we have to take him: 

How big of a risk is that?  #23 is a big gamble for a player with an injury/surgery like that, right?

 

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23 hours ago, David Harris said:

If Caleb Farley really drops into the 20’s because of the diskectomy  I think we have to take him: 

Before this injury he was being mocked as one of the top corners off the board. If Douglas does his research and determines that he will have a clean bill of health it will be interesting to see if he takes him at 23. If he somehow falls to 34 I think that’s a no brainer 

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https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/caleb-farley-back-injury-fallout-2021-nfl-draft

21 minutes ago, Rhg1084 said:

Before this injury he was being mocked as one of the top corners off the board. If Douglas does his research and determines that he will have a clean bill of health it will be interesting to see if he takes him at 23. If he somehow falls to 34 I think that’s a no brainer 

that article explains the risk reward well- I think at 23 it’s worth it as I feel he’ll probably work out 

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17 minutes ago, David Harris said:

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/caleb-farley-back-injury-fallout-2021-nfl-draft

that article explains the risk reward well- I think at 23 it’s worth it as I feel he’ll probably work out 

Yeah kinda sucks he hasn’t played since 2019 and didn’t have a pro day to show off his skill this year. I don’t know if Douglas will take the gamble at 23. Even tho they said it’s a minor procedure he’s having. Should be interesting to see where he falls to

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22 minutes ago, Rhg1084 said:

Yeah kinda sucks he hasn’t played since 2019 and didn’t have a pro day to show off his skill this year. I don’t know if Douglas will take the gamble at 23. Even tho they said it’s a minor procedure he’s having. Should be interesting to see where he falls to

We are not in a position to gamble at 23.  I would prefer OL there, but I think I would prefer Newsome, Samuel or Horn (assuming Surtain will be gone) rather than rolling the dice on a guy with an injury history.  Think he also had an ACL a couple of years ago.

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9 minutes ago, Lith said:

We are not in a position to gamble at 23.  I would prefer OL there, but I think I would prefer Newsome, Samuel or Horn (assuming Surtain will be gone) rather than rolling the dice on a guy with an injury history.  Think he also had an ACL a couple of years ago.

Why does this guy scream Dee Milner?  Please no.

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