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Beer; Justin Fields over analysis reminds me of J Herbert.

Paradis

By Paradis
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Paradis
Paradis

Questionable premise for a thread, I’ll concede. But I thought it stood out from other retread talking-points just enough. He Likens the recent over analysis and seemingly empty criticisms to the

King P
King P

The overanalysis of Fields has reached Deshaun Watson levels of overthinking ?

slimjasi
slimjasi

I’ve always liked fields and would have no issue with the Jets taking him at 2.

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T0mShane

T0mShane

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1 hour ago, Paradis said:

Questionable premise for a thread, I’ll concede. But I thought it stood out from other retread talking-points just enough.

He Likens the recent over analysis and seemingly empty criticisms to the way that the community talked themselves out of Justin Herbert last year… Which I would include myself as part of the latter since I saw a lot of decision-making and accuracy questions.

Anyone else feel like this is a good for parallel with fields? He hasn’t stopped progressing/developing yet but it already feels like a stretch that JD will take him. 

Breer is a massive OSU homer.

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Columbia Jet Fan

Columbia Jet Fan

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I'll take people's words on the progression/mental aspects of the game. I'm happy to watch some youtube clips, but I ain't grinding all-22 and even if I did I didn't know what I was looking for...

That being said, if you look at the rest of their games to me Fields>everyone in this draft. 

He is the most accurate QB in the draft on all three levels of the fields - significantly more so than past OSU QBs 

He has a cannon 

He would be in the 2nd tier of QB runners - not exactly a Lamar Jackson but up there with guys like Cam Newton or Josh Allen

He is tough as nails 

He has competed against top competition, for multiple years 

Even against TL he is faster, more accurate, and has similar arm strength. If you can't go through progressions and read NFL defenses none of that matters - but by all accounts he is a hard worker and didn't get to "show" he can do those things based on the offense he ran at OSU. If JD & Coaching staff spent a few hours with him and were confident he can handle the mental aspect I'd have no issue with him as our selection at #2. To me if we are running a supposedly QB friendly scheme I think the guy who is just as accurate as Wilson but can also hurt teams with his legs is probably the safer pick. 

Still lean Wilson - but thats mostly based on the hype which time and time again has proven to result in QB misses. Will be happy with either. 

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Dunnie

Dunnie

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3 minutes ago, CanadienJetsFan said:

Arm-strength wise, Wilson reminds me more of Hebert than fields does.

Not sure about that .. both have above avg arms ...Wilson's  release is much quicker and more compact.

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King P

King P

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11 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

I agree with the over analysis of Fields bit but I do not look at him nearly the same as herbert at all.

Herbert was never a premium prospect last year and if anything was drafted higher than people thought.

The draft also had Burrow and Tua. I wasn't surprised at all he went that high. He would have went higher if he declared the year before

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nycdan

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30 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

No need to trade down. I wouldn’t be shocked if Fields fell to 23

 

Go to 28 minute Mark.  The guru of the qb evaluation has some interesting things to say about Fields that nfl GMs are currently seeing

 

He talks about Fields being a 'one-read' thrower who runs if the first look isn't there.  We've all seen (at least those of us who watched tape) countless examples disproving that narrative.  I'm really surprised to see Simms spouting it because it just is patently false.  There are legitimate criticisms you can make, but that is so not true that it makes me question the whole segment.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2021/02/nfl-draft-justin-fields-one-read-quarterback-report if you're too lazy to look for one on your own.

So one has to wonder....does Simms just not see what is clearly on film, or is he trying too hard to stake out a position different from the crowd?

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Chrebetfan80

Chrebetfan80

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1 hour ago, joewilly12 said:

Wilson or Fields outside chance Lance. 1 will be the new NY Jets QB. 

No way JD and Saleh hitch their wagon to Sam Darnold. 

Respectfully, I cannot understand this line of thinking... is it just because we're seemingly passing over a qb for darnold that JD and Saleh are "hitching their wagon" to him?  In my opinion on the matter if they elect to go with Darnold they would be actually leaving the wagon unhitched to any QB for at least 1 more year.  Now if they were to then after the year sign Darnold to a long term extension that they couldnt get out of then yeah I would agree they are hitching their wagon to him.  

If you are going to keep Darnold, to me the best way would be to sign him to an extension now, one that the team could easily get out of after this season if he is bad, but that pays him a reasonable sum of money to entice him to sign (performance based incentives so on so forth).  If he's great, you have a QB on a short reasonable deal while rebuilding and can discuss a worthy extension later on.  If he stinks you can cut bait and move on with massive draft capital to move up for a QB (if you even have to) next draft.  In that plan (which is again keeping Darnold). How would they be hitching their wagon to him?  

What i do know is that if they draft someone... They are in fact 100% hitching their wagon to that kid.  Is saleh ready in year one to do that?  Look how trepidatious a GM like Ballard has been to draft anyone, because he knows if he misses he's probably out. Drafting a QB top 5 and missing is the fastest way to end your coaching tenure or GM tenure. 

Keeping Sam on a prove it style extension or 5th year option?  Not exactly the same type of commitment to me.  

Maybe im just looking at it weird, but I personally never understood it the other way around.  No offense if you do, I just cant rationalize it like that. 

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nycdan

nycdan

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10 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

Not sure about that .. both have above avg arms ...Wilson's  release is much quicker and more compact.

I'm a Fields guy but I agree with this.  Wilson does throw a very nice ball.  In a perfect world, he might be the most accurate, although I've seen stats showing Fields to have been more accurate in certain situations.  But I don't think we've seen enough of Wilson throwing under duress to really know how he'll translate to a league where the likes of Aaron Donald, Khalil Mack and Quinnen Williams are consistently coming to separate his head from his body.  He just hasn't seen anything remotely like that and it changes things.  That, to me, is the big red flag that some of his proponents seem to be deliberately avoiding.

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Paradis

Paradis

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45 minutes ago, Jdub03 said:

Three weeks ago I thought JF was my#1 QB, but this past week I've questioned myself based on the analysis by Sims/Jeremiah and there track record being quite good. I've since watched ZW tape of each throw from 4 or 5 games and have talked myself into liking more than I originally did. 

At this point I have no idea, but hope JD does.  I mean I see some special throws from ZW, but I see similar throws from Sam. My thing was always, how much better than Sam is ZW really, because I see a lot of similarities in their skill sets. JF on the other hand I thought had the higher cealing. Yes, I know he has work to do, but I liked his toughness, leadership, mental make up, deep ball accuracy, and physical attributes.  I didn't care too much about the first read debate because that's true of many college qb's/programs.  He seems bright enough to pick it up.  I watched his two worst performances, and aside from a few plays it wasn't as bad as it's being made out to be.

Whatever decision the Jets make I'll roll with. I do think we should draft a QB, but I also think we should retain Sam if we don't receive a good offer. Im not sending him off for peanuts.

Its fields of go home for me. I see the same narrative about "holds on too long to find his next read"... Maybe, maybe not - but i'll take that if he's got his eyes downfield and moving in the pocket to avoid pressure.. that's considerably different that those who fold when their hear "ghosts" as Darnold said. 

If we're not doing the Fields thing, then trade back and get me Pitts & co... I will not be denied. 

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Dunnie

Dunnie

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5 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Its fields of go home for me. I see the same narrative about "holds on too long to find his next read"... Maybe, maybe not - but i'll take that if he's got his eyes downfield and moving in the pocket to avoid pressure.. that's considerably different that those who fold when their hear "ghosts" as Darnold said. 

If we're not doing the Fields thing, then trade back and get me Pitts & co... I will not be denied. 

Wilson/Lawrence @ 2 ... Fields around 6-8 ... Jones/Lance around 15-18 or GTFO

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Chrebetfan80

Chrebetfan80

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1 hour ago, Paradis said:

Questionable premise for a thread, I’ll concede. But I thought it stood out from other retread talking-points just enough.

He Likens the recent over analysis and seemingly empty criticisms to the way that the community talked themselves out of Justin Herbert last year… Which I would include myself as part of the latter since I saw a lot of decision-making and accuracy questions.

Anyone else feel like this is a good for parallel with fields? He hasn’t stopped progressing/developing yet but it already feels like a stretch that JD will take him. 

I knew a fields thread was coming from you with all of the Wilson content pumping out ahhaha

I think youre not far off in the idea that people are picking apart Fields to the extremes, but I do not see a ton of similarities between him and Herbert only because Herbert had what in a lot of peoples minds was a down senior year where as Fields put together his best season.  

Look, I've said this, I think Wilson right now is the better prospect, I think mechanically, mentally, and feel wise there is less to work on with him when he comes in than a guy like Fields.  I could give a full analysis but I'm sure on draft night you and i will be going back and forth on it lol

Even with that being said Fields to me is the 3rd guy in this draft and its not like it's a mile off.  His talent to me is very real.  I think people are getting a little hyper critical about him and really amplifying the issues he has.  I also think it doesnt help that a guy like Mac Jones is really picking up steam and coming on strong so the story now isnt just "how does fields stack up to wilson, its also how does fields stack up to Mac Jones". 

Mac is coming on strong because people finally are delving into what Sark was doing in Alabama with that offense this year and they are seeing Jones beautifully handle a  full field 4 read progression style play action passing game. Aside from Lawrence, Jones may be the most pro ready of any of these QBs in this draft, so his draft stock is taking a big bounce up the ladder because of that.  To me Fields still has the edge there because physically what he can do and how that makes his player potential so much higher.  There is still a lot of room for growth with Fields. 

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joewilly12

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22 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

Respectfully, I cannot understand this line of thinking... is it just because we're seemingly passing over a qb for darnold that JD and Saleh are "hitching their wagon" to him?  In my opinion on the matter if they elect to go with Darnold they would be actually leaving the wagon unhitched to any QB for at least 1 more year.  Now if they were to then after the year sign Darnold to a long term extension that they couldnt get out of then yeah I would agree they are hitching their wagon to him.  

If you are going to keep Darnold, to me the best way would be to sign him to an extension now, one that the team could easily get out of after this season if he is bad, but that pays him a reasonable sum of money to entice him to sign (performance based incentives so on so forth).  If he's great, you have a QB on a short reasonable deal while rebuilding and can discuss a worthy extension later on.  If he stinks you can cut bait and move on with massive draft capital to move up for a QB (if you even have to) next draft.  In that plan (which is again keeping Darnold). How would they be hitching their wagon to him?  

What i do know is that if they draft someone... They are in fact 100% hitching their wagon to that kid.  Is saleh ready in year one to do that?  Look how trepidatious a GM like Ballard has been to draft anyone, because he knows if he misses he's probably out. Drafting a QB top 5 and missing is the fastest way to end your coaching tenure or GM tenure. 

Keeping Sam on a prove it style extension or 5th year option?  Not exactly the same type of commitment to me.  

Maybe im just looking at it weird, but I personally never understood it the other way around.  No offense if you do, I just cant rationalize it like that. 

Neither JD or RS picked Sam Darnold or chose him to be here. 

They too have watched him for 3 years. 

They will ultimately make the decision. 

We can talk all we want nothing we say matters. 

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juxsta

juxsta

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12 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Pitts>>>2021 draft class

 

He's good enough to say fck QB, we'll figure that out next year. 

Yeah, I've been feeling the same way lately. This dude is going to be an offensive juggernaut. Speed, Size, Blocking, Red Zone threat ,etc... If we do run it back this year with Easter Island at QB , then we have to trade back a few spots and Pitts should be the pick. I'd take him right now over the top wide receivers in this class. 

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maury77

maury77

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1 hour ago, nycdan said:

He talks about Fields being a 'one-read' thrower who runs if the first look isn't there.  We've all seen (at least those of us who watched tape) countless examples disproving that narrative.  I'm really surprised to see Simms spouting it because it just is patently false.  There are legitimate criticisms you can make, but that is so not true that it makes me question the whole segment.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2021/02/nfl-draft-justin-fields-one-read-quarterback-report if you're too lazy to look for one on your own.

So one has to wonder....does Simms just not see what is clearly on film, or is he trying too hard to stake out a position different from the crowd?

Simms is full of sh!t, I listened to his interview yesterday and he said that Wilson's 2018 season was pretty good (12tds and 9 Ints) and that he had major concerns about Field's accuracy (which is superb by pretty much every metric I've seen). I could care less that he's a former NFL QB or that he was right about a couple of QB classes, I'm not going to take his word that the sky is red when it is clearly blue. 

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nycdan

nycdan

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Here's one of the few guys I really like and respect of the 'youtube' bunch.  The QB School.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGfxHp2yuimtLsFaq1r7aIQ

He posts a TON of great content and he doesn't appear to have any bullshit biases at all.

He really likes all three of the top-3 QBs but he points out concerns with all of them as well.  I don't think I have learned more about how to break down a QB's game than I do from his videos.

 

 

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JustInFudge

JustInFudge

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3 hours ago, Paradis said:

Questionable premise for a thread, I’ll concede. But I thought it stood out from other retread talking-points just enough.

He Likens the recent over analysis and seemingly empty criticisms to the way that the community talked themselves out of Justin Herbert last year… Which I would include myself as part of the latter since I saw a lot of decision-making and accuracy questions.

Anyone else feel like this is a good for parallel with fields? He hasn’t stopped progressing/developing yet but it already feels like a stretch that JD will take him. 

I dont think Herbert was beat down this bad but he is probably more comparable then Watson who I've been using as the example.  While I loved Watson the knee and INT's were at least somewhat legitimate concerns and then the silly mph stuff started pooping out of mouths but Herbert's criticisms were quite empty ie; played a Oregon, is dumb, goofy.  Stupid sh*t. So yes, this year has that feeling to me, as I said in the draft forum, it's hard to hand build a better prospect then Fields.  All world athlete,  6'3 built like brick sh*t house, Ivy league brain, who's done nothing but exceed ridiculous expectations that he's had on him since he was in High School.  All of these guys need development.  I dunno, seems like it would be fun to work with world class athlete who is super smart and already really good.

That said, I'm fully resigned to taking Mitch Wilson. 

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Jdub03

Jdub03

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12 hours ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

I knew a fields thread was coming from you with all of the Wilson content pumping out ahhaha

I think youre not far off in the idea that people are picking apart Fields to the extremes, but I do not see a ton of similarities between him and Herbert only because Herbert had what in a lot of peoples minds was a down senior year where as Fields put together his best season.  

Look, I've said this, I think Wilson right now is the better prospect, I think mechanically, mentally, and feel wise there is less to work on with him when he comes in than a guy like Fields.  I could give a full analysis but I'm sure on draft night you and i will be going back and forth on it lol

Even with that being said Fields to me is the 3rd guy in this draft and its not like it's a mile off.  His talent to me is very real.  I think people are getting a little hyper critical about him and really amplifying the issues he has.  I also think it doesnt help that a guy like Mac Jones is really picking up steam and coming on strong so the story now isnt just "how does fields stack up to wilson, its also how does fields stack up to Mac Jones". 

Mac is coming on strong because people finally are delving into what Sark was doing in Alabama with that offense this year and they are seeing Jones beautifully handle a  full field 4 read progression style play action passing game. Aside from Lawrence, Jones may be the most pro ready of any of these QBs in this draft, so his draft stock is taking a big bounce up the ladder because of that.  To me Fields still has the edge there because physically what he can do and how that makes his player potential so much higher.  There is still a lot of room for growth with Fields. 

How much stock do you put into Justin being #2 to Lawrence from High School on? It may be nothing, but I like a player with something to prove.  

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Charlie Brown

Charlie Brown

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14 hours ago, Paradis said:

Questionable premise for a thread, I’ll concede. But I thought it stood out from other retread talking-points just enough.

He Likens the recent over analysis and seemingly empty criticisms to the way that the community talked themselves out of Justin Herbert last year… Which I would include myself as part of the latter since I saw a lot of decision-making and accuracy questions.

Anyone else feel like this is a good for parallel with fields? He hasn’t stopped progressing/developing yet but it already feels like a stretch that JD will take him. 

I agree how in the world Fields not 1,2 or 3 on anyone’s board is amazing to me. 

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