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To be clear; 0% chance Jets trade OUT of #2 and still take a QB


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@Peace Frog Dip your bread in these sauces. ;)  And again, Douglas was very much aboard in Baltimore at the time, having been with the team for nearly a decade by the time all this happened.

https://www.thepostgame.com/blog/throwback/201408/flying-high-baltimore-ravens-jamison-hensley-joe-flacco-steve-bisciotti

[After a pre-draft workout with Flacco]

Team officials walked to their cars in silence. They didn't even look at each other. With just a month left before the draft, the Ravens didn't want to give anyone watching a hint that they were so impressed with Flacco.

"It was there that we all looked at each other and kind of said the same thing: ‘Do you believe what we just saw?'" said Cam Cameron, the Ravens' offensive coordinator at the time.

So, imagine the Ravens' surprise when owner Steve Bisciotti challenged them to draft a different franchise quarterback -- Matt Ryan.

"I told those guys that if they had Matt Ryan listed as the best quarterback in the draft, then I'm willing to give up the whole damn draft for him," Bisciotti said. "I told them there is nothing worse for an owner or for them to be managing a business without a franchise quarterback. I said, ‘I don't care what we have to pay for him to trade up. We're getting Matt Ryan.'"

The Ravens, who were drafting No. 8 in 2008, knew they would have to jump six spots to No. 2 (and ahead of the Atlanta Falcons) to get Ryan. Baltimore called the St. Louis Rams, who had the second overall pick, and they wanted two first-round picks (2008 and 2009) along with the Ravens' picks in the second and third rounds.

Team officials convinced Bisciotti the smarter play was to trade back, acquire more picks, and take Flacco. The Ravens had Ryan rated as the No. 3 player in the entire draft and Flacco at No. 15. There wasn't much separation between the quarterbacks in the Ravens' opinion.

The team's scouts thought Flacco had a lower floor than Ryan, but he had the higher ceiling.

The Ravens dropped from a top-10 pick to near the bottom of the first round, which proved too far down to Bisciotti's liking. He started getting antsy that Flacco wouldn't drop to the Ravens. He didn't want to get stuck with a quarterback like Chad Henne or Brian Brohm, who weren't rated anywhere close to Flacco on the Ravens' board.

Bisciotti wanted the Ravens to trade a third-round pick and move up, but Eric DeCosta, the Ravens' director of player personnel at the time, didn't think the team should do it. DeCosta told Bisciotti that Flacco would be there at No. 26. Bisciotti then looked across the table at DeCosta and told him, "And what if he isn't? What if somebody takes him? Is it going to be worth an extra third-round pick? We have three of them. So, stop being a pick whore. Let's give up a third, and go back and get him, and be done with this."

The Ravens gave up a pick in the third and sixth rounds to Houston in order to go to No. 18 and take Flacco. At the news conference, general manager Ozzie Newsome essentially delivered the coronation of Flacco, calling him "the guy to lead our football team into the future."

ESPN NFL draft analyst Mel Kiper Jr. questioned the pick, saying Flacco was a second-round talent. The biggest criticism with Flacco was he played in Division I-AA against Towson and New Hampshire instead of national powers like Alabama and Texas.

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I understand this is a pompous position to take but I’m seeing some of you pull the Charlie Day gif here with trades back and taking Lance, or whomever etc.  that will never happen. If you love a

If I had to guess what Joe Douglas dreams about at night, it’s trading back to 8, drafting Slater, and Darnold magically becoming good behind a good OL

In fairness, Douglas comes from the school of thought that did just what you mention in 2008 when he was a Ravens scout. Baltimore liked Flacco plenty but not way up at #8, because they felt no o

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4 hours ago, MykePM said:

I think you’re confusing a few of us here.  If you’re looking for “sauces” that the Ravens liked Flacco and Jackson, but not with the 8th or 16th pick (respectively), the obvious proof is that they did not draft those guys with the earlier pick when they had the chance but then did draft them with a later pick.

If you’re requesting verification that conversations actually took place in the Ravens war room where Ozzie and team said “We can get <Flacco or Jackson> now, but it’s too high for them, so let’s trade out and see if we can get them later”, that probably won’t happen.  

Actually I got you covered there, too. ;) 

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14 hours ago, Peace Frog said:

Not analogous. That was a once in a lifetime (or twice Montana Young) occurrence. 
 

Look at Philly or Chicago or Arizona or pretty much every other place that’s had two QBs. 

Favre, Rodgers

Montana, Young

Simms, Hoss

Brees, Rivers

Warner, Eli

Warner, Green

Not that both have to be or have been anything great, but dispell the idea that if you have two then you really have zero...

Warner, Leinart

Mariota, Tannehill

Brady, Garoppolo

Flynn, Wilson

RGIII, Cousins

Aikman, Walsh (drafted same year I think, giving up a future 1st for Walsh in the supplemental after taking Aikman #1 overall in April, but someone who cares can double check that one)

...I could go on (and typically do), but these are just what came to mind off the top of my head. There are surely many more.

Peace, Frog. :) 

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JD passing on a QB at two and trading down indicates to me that he's passing on the QB market altogether, and that he's going to roll with Sam. 

He then will have the task of building a team around him utilizing the even more abundance of premium draft capital after the trade-down.  I doubt he'll waste a pick on a QB. There are way too many holes to fill. Besides, he did that already with Morgan. 

So, yeah I agree with @Paradis on the 0% thingy. 

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In my opinion JD trading back or not drafting a quarterback with the 2nd pick in the draft doesn't necessarily mean he's all in on Sam Darnold. Joe could still draft a quarterback in this draft with one of his 5 picks in the first three rounds of the draft. He could keep Darnold or trade him and bring in a veteran stopgap to compete for the starting job. Either way Darnold isn't guaranteed the starting job if the Jets pass on drafting a quarterback with the 2nd overall pick. When you've played as poorly as Darnold going on your 4th year in the league you're lucky to be on the team let alone being named the starter. The only thing keeping Darnold the starter this long is the fact the Jets invested so much in him to get him. I'd just trade him for a top 100 pick and move on. He's a sunk cost. 

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3 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

@Peace Frog Dip your bread in these sauces. ;)  And again, Douglas was very much aboard in Baltimore at the time, having been with the team for nearly a decade by the time all this happened.

https://www.thepostgame.com/blog/throwback/201408/flying-high-baltimore-ravens-jamison-hensley-joe-flacco-steve-bisciotti

[After a pre-draft workout with Flacco]

Team officials walked to their cars in silence. They didn't even look at each other. With just a month left before the draft, the Ravens didn't want to give anyone watching a hint that they were so impressed with Flacco.

"It was there that we all looked at each other and kind of said the same thing: ‘Do you believe what we just saw?'" said Cam Cameron, the Ravens' offensive coordinator at the time.

So, imagine the Ravens' surprise when owner Steve Bisciotti challenged them to draft a different franchise quarterback -- Matt Ryan.

"I told those guys that if they had Matt Ryan listed as the best quarterback in the draft, then I'm willing to give up the whole damn draft for him," Bisciotti said. "I told them there is nothing worse for an owner or for them to be managing a business without a franchise quarterback. I said, ‘I don't care what we have to pay for him to trade up. We're getting Matt Ryan.'"

The Ravens, who were drafting No. 8 in 2008, knew they would have to jump six spots to No. 2 (and ahead of the Atlanta Falcons) to get Ryan. Baltimore called the St. Louis Rams, who had the second overall pick, and they wanted two first-round picks (2008 and 2009) along with the Ravens' picks in the second and third rounds.

Team officials convinced Bisciotti the smarter play was to trade back, acquire more picks, and take Flacco. The Ravens had Ryan rated as the No. 3 player in the entire draft and Flacco at No. 15. There wasn't much separation between the quarterbacks in the Ravens' opinion.

The team's scouts thought Flacco had a lower floor than Ryan, but he had the higher ceiling.

The Ravens dropped from a top-10 pick to near the bottom of the first round, which proved too far down to Bisciotti's liking. He started getting antsy that Flacco wouldn't drop to the Ravens. He didn't want to get stuck with a quarterback like Chad Henne or Brian Brohm, who weren't rated anywhere close to Flacco on the Ravens' board.

Bisciotti wanted the Ravens to trade a third-round pick and move up, but Eric DeCosta, the Ravens' director of player personnel at the time, didn't think the team should do it. DeCosta told Bisciotti that Flacco would be there at No. 26. Bisciotti then looked across the table at DeCosta and told him, "And what if he isn't? What if somebody takes him? Is it going to be worth an extra third-round pick? We have three of them. So, stop being a pick whore. Let's give up a third, and go back and get him, and be done with this."

The Ravens gave up a pick in the third and sixth rounds to Houston in order to go to No. 18 and take Flacco. At the news conference, general manager Ozzie Newsome essentially delivered the coronation of Flacco, calling him "the guy to lead our football team into the future."

ESPN NFL draft analyst Mel Kiper Jr. questioned the pick, saying Flacco was a second-round talent. The biggest criticism with Flacco was he played in Division I-AA against Towson and New Hampshire instead of national powers like Alabama and Texas.

You see, now that’s a sauce. 😆

Not speculation. 

I still don’t believe in this situation though with  potentially 5 QBs going top 10 it’s an analogous or advisable strategy. 

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3 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Favre, Rodgers

Montana, Young

Simms, Hoss

Brees, Rivers

Warner, Eli

Warner, Green

Not that both have to be or have been anything great, but dispell the idea that if you have two then you really have zero...

Warner, Leinart

Mariota, Tannehill

Brady, Garoppolo

Flynn, Wilson

RGIII, Cousins

Aikman, Walsh (drafted same year I think, giving up a future 1st for Walsh in the supplemental after taking Aikman #1 overall in April, but someone who cares can double check that one)

...I could go on (and typically do), but these are just what came to mind off the top of my head. There are surely many more.

Peace, Frog. :) 

Every team literally has 2 QBs. But not 2 guys they think are THE guy. Most of those situations one was the clear back up or someone they were moving on from.  The old guy and the néw guy. Someone who stepped in for an injured started. Mentor mentee. And Fabre Rogers Montana Young being the clear ones I pointed out earlier. 

I’m thinking more in the Wentz Hurts or Trubisky Foles or Murray Rosen mold. Or even Geno and Mark. 
 

I like Sam but we can’t have Sam and take Wilson at 2. It’ll split the team. Tie your horse to one and ride him. 

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3 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

@Peace Frog Dip your bread in these sauces. ;)  And again, Douglas was very much aboard in Baltimore at the time, having been with the team for nearly a decade by the time all this happened.

https://www.thepostgame.com/blog/throwback/201408/flying-high-baltimore-ravens-jamison-hensley-joe-flacco-steve-bisciotti

[After a pre-draft workout with Flacco]

Team officials walked to their cars in silence. They didn't even look at each other. With just a month left before the draft, the Ravens didn't want to give anyone watching a hint that they were so impressed with Flacco.

"It was there that we all looked at each other and kind of said the same thing: ‘Do you believe what we just saw?'" said Cam Cameron, the Ravens' offensive coordinator at the time.

So, imagine the Ravens' surprise when owner Steve Bisciotti challenged them to draft a different franchise quarterback -- Matt Ryan.

"I told those guys that if they had Matt Ryan listed as the best quarterback in the draft, then I'm willing to give up the whole damn draft for him," Bisciotti said. "I told them there is nothing worse for an owner or for them to be managing a business without a franchise quarterback. I said, ‘I don't care what we have to pay for him to trade up. We're getting Matt Ryan.'"

The Ravens, who were drafting No. 8 in 2008, knew they would have to jump six spots to No. 2 (and ahead of the Atlanta Falcons) to get Ryan. Baltimore called the St. Louis Rams, who had the second overall pick, and they wanted two first-round picks (2008 and 2009) along with the Ravens' picks in the second and third rounds.

Team officials convinced Bisciotti the smarter play was to trade back, acquire more picks, and take Flacco. The Ravens had Ryan rated as the No. 3 player in the entire draft and Flacco at No. 15. There wasn't much separation between the quarterbacks in the Ravens' opinion.

The team's scouts thought Flacco had a lower floor than Ryan, but he had the higher ceiling.

The Ravens dropped from a top-10 pick to near the bottom of the first round, which proved too far down to Bisciotti's liking. He started getting antsy that Flacco wouldn't drop to the Ravens. He didn't want to get stuck with a quarterback like Chad Henne or Brian Brohm, who weren't rated anywhere close to Flacco on the Ravens' board.

Bisciotti wanted the Ravens to trade a third-round pick and move up, but Eric DeCosta, the Ravens' director of player personnel at the time, didn't think the team should do it. DeCosta told Bisciotti that Flacco would be there at No. 26. Bisciotti then looked across the table at DeCosta and told him, "And what if he isn't? What if somebody takes him? Is it going to be worth an extra third-round pick? We have three of them. So, stop being a pick whore. Let's give up a third, and go back and get him, and be done with this."

The Ravens gave up a pick in the third and sixth rounds to Houston in order to go to No. 18 and take Flacco. At the news conference, general manager Ozzie Newsome essentially delivered the coronation of Flacco, calling him "the guy to lead our football team into the future."

ESPN NFL draft analyst Mel Kiper Jr. questioned the pick, saying Flacco was a second-round talent. The biggest criticism with Flacco was he played in Division I-AA against Towson and New Hampshire instead of national powers like Alabama and Texas.

The really impressive part of that story is seeing the true symmetry in the Ravens organization. The owner wanted, Ryan but deferred to his football guys. When it got a little too close for comfort, he exerted his authority, got them to use draft capital, and trade up to get their guy. Great stuff.

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1 hour ago, Peace Frog said:

Every team literally has 2 QBs. But not 2 guys they think are THE guy. Most of those situations one was the clear back up or someone they were moving on from.  The old guy and the néw guy. Someone who stepped in for an injured started. Mentor mentee. And Fabre Rogers Montana Young being the clear ones I pointed out earlier. 

I’m thinking more in the Wentz Hurts or Trubisky Foles or Murray Rosen mold. Or even Geno and Mark. 
 

I like Sam but we can’t have Sam and take Wilson at 2. It’ll split the team. Tie your horse to one and ride him. 

I wasn't listing everyone's backup QB; that's ridiculous.

I was only going with some where the team had reason to have serious belief in both. Each was brought in or drafted with an eye on the player as a serious starter immediately or soon. Which would you cross off from my abbreviated list? Only one maybe is RGIII/Cousins, except Cousins was taken way too high to purely view as a backup like the Colts drafting Sorgi or Painter.

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1 hour ago, section314 said:

The really impressive part of that story is seeing the true symmetry in the Ravens organization. The owner wanted, Ryan but deferred to his football guys. When it got a little too close for comfort, he exerted his authority, got them to use draft capital, and trade up to get their guy. Great stuff.

I'd agree with you, except that's not true.

The Ravens did offer their entire draft class that year to move up from #8 to #2 to draft Ryan, but the Rams(?) additionally wanted Baltimore's 2nd rounder the following year & that was too much for the owner to force.

Then after that he meddled more to trade up to 18 for a QB who may very well have been there at pick 35+.

That's a level of meddling Woody Johnson hasn't come anywhere near approaching(for all his presumed micromanaging in the absence of any such leaks in 20 years). Bisciotti literally forced his GM to offer up the entirety of the team's entire draft like Mike Ditka, wasting a whole 2007 season & 2008 spring spent scouting thousands of other players. Even worse, the FO guys Bisciotti was overruling were two of the most highly-regarded in the league. 

It's glossed over so readily because the Rams turned down his offer and Baltimore eventually won a Super Bowl with Flacco.

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2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I wasn't listing everyone's backup QB; that's ridiculous.

I was only going with some where the team had reason to have serious belief in both. Each was brought in or drafted with an eye on the player as a serious starter immediately or soon. Which would you cross off from my abbreviated list? Only one maybe is RGIII/Cousins, except Cousins was taken way too high to purely view as a backup like the Colts drafting Sorgi or Painter.

If you are positing that every team has 2 QBs then you are 100% correct.  Young guys to replace old guys, healthy guys to replace oft-injured guys, stop-gaps to replace ineffective QBs.

If you are repsonding to my point, then I'd disgree with just about all of yours.

Hoss was not drafted as a replcement for Simms.  Wouldn't have played until Simms got injured.

Warner wasn't even drafted--bounced around Iowa and a supermarket and if it wasn't for Green's injury he never would have seen the field.

Warner was a 1 year deal- not a long term answer at QB for the Giants and Eli was clearly the future (lol that Warner actually went on to success at AZ).

Warner was getting older and wasn't Kurt Warner until after they took Leinart and Leniart got hurt/sucked.

Even Brees/Rivers I almost agreed with but really, Brees was not very good and not looked at as the long term answer when presented with Rivers/Eli.

Tanneyhill was traded to Tenn as a backup, signed a 1 year deal because Mariota was oft injured and wasn't the player they thought they had drafted.

Flynn signed a MASSIVE contract and they didn't draft Wilson as his replacement, Wilson was looked at as a luxury change of pace QB and it wasn't until he walked into the building that they realized they had struck gold.

Garrapolo was just bellichik being a doosh. 

Cousins was drafted in the 4th round not to replace RG3 but as insurance in case RQ3 got hurt--which he did and was a smart move.   

My point is, DRAFTING a guy 3rd then 3 years later DRAFTING a guy 2nd and trying to keep BOTH is a recipe for disaster.  Wentz Hurtz, Murray Rosen, Mark Geno,  Favre Rogers, Montana Young.  Hell, everyone totally disagrees with Rogers Love. 

We cannot draft Wilson and keep both he and Sam.  Gotta trade Sam.  If Mariota is realeased and we signed him it wouldn't be to replace Wilson, it'd be as a back-up/mentor/starter to give Wilson time to acclimate.  

I understand your point but it's clear you don't understand mine.  

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Dedicating this mock to you @Paradis

pfn-logo-black
  • NYJ
    5.
    DeVonta Smith
    WR Alabama
    trade icon
  • NYJ
    29.
    Ifeatu Melifonwu
    CB Syracuse
    trade icon
  • NYJ
    34.
    Mac Jones
    QB Alabama
     
  • NYJ
    38.
    Creed Humphrey
    OC Oklahoma
    trade icon
  • NYJ
    59.
    Amon-Ra St. Brown
    WR USC
    trade icon
  • NYJ
    66.
    Brevin Jordan
    TE Miami (FL)
     
  • NYJ
    86.
    Kenneth Gainwell
    RB Memphis
     
  • NYJ
    91.
    Dayo Odeyingbo
    EDGE Vanderbilt
    trade icon
  • 2022 CIN 1st
  • 2022 CIN 2nd

Trade Details

CIN

Received:

  • Pick 2 - Penei Sewell
  • Pick 107 - Dyami Brown
NYJ

Received:

  • Pick 5
  • Pick 38
  • 2022 CIN 1st
  • 2022 CIN 2nd
  • Trade Details

    GB

    Received:

    • Pick 21 - Rashod Bateman
    IND

    Received:

    • Pick 29
    • Pick 62
    IND

    Received:

    • Pick 23 - Samuel Cosmi
    • 2022 NYJ 3rd
    NYJ

    Received:

    • Pick 29
    • Pick 54
    • Trade Details

      CLE

      Received:

      • Pick 54 - Jabril Cox
      • Pick 146
      NYJ

      Received:

      • Pick 59
      • Pick 91
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13 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Dedicating this mock to you @Paradis

pfn-logo-black
  • NYJ
    5.
    DeVonta Smith
    WR Alabama
    trade icon
  • NYJ
    29.
    Ifeatu Melifonwu
    CB Syracuse
    trade icon
  • NYJ
    34.
    Mac Jones
    QB Alabama
     
  • NYJ
    38.
    Creed Humphrey
    OC Oklahoma
    trade icon
  • NYJ
    59.
    Amon-Ra St. Brown
    WR USC
    trade icon
  • NYJ
    66.
    Brevin Jordan
    TE Miami (FL)
     
  • NYJ
    86.
    Kenneth Gainwell
    RB Memphis
     
  • NYJ
    91.
    Dayo Odeyingbo
    EDGE Vanderbilt
    trade icon
  • 2022 CIN 1st
  • 2022 CIN 2nd

Trade Details

CIN

Received:

  • Pick 2 - Penei Sewell
  • Pick 107 - Dyami Brown
NYJ

Received:

  • Pick 5
  • Pick 38
  • 2022 CIN 1st
  • 2022 CIN 2nd
  • Trade Details

    GB

    Received:

    • Pick 21 - Rashod Bateman
    IND

    Received:

    • Pick 29
    • Pick 62
    IND

    Received:

    • Pick 23 - Samuel Cosmi
    • 2022 NYJ 3rd
    NYJ

    Received:

    • Pick 29
    • Pick 54
    • Trade Details

      CLE

      Received:

      • Pick 54 - Jabril Cox
      • Pick 146
      NYJ

      Received:

      • Pick 59
      • Pick 91

thank you. that would stand to on JN on fire. 

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2 hours ago, Peace Frog said:

If you are positing that every team has 2 QBs then you are 100% correct.  Young guys to replace old guys, healthy guys to replace oft-injured guys, stop-gaps to replace ineffective QBs.

If you are repsonding to my point, then I'd disgree with just about all of yours.

Hoss was not drafted as a replcement for Simms.  Wouldn't have played until Simms got injured.

Warner wasn't even drafted--bounced around Iowa and a supermarket and if it wasn't for Green's injury he never would have seen the field.

Warner was a 1 year deal- not a long term answer at QB for the Giants and Eli was clearly the future (lol that Warner actually went on to success at AZ).

Warner was getting older and wasn't Kurt Warner until after they took Leinart and Leniart got hurt/sucked.

Even Brees/Rivers I almost agreed with but really, Brees was not very good and not looked at as the long term answer when presented with Rivers/Eli.

Tanneyhill was traded to Tenn as a backup, signed a 1 year deal because Mariota was oft injured and wasn't the player they thought they had drafted.

Flynn signed a MASSIVE contract and they didn't draft Wilson as his replacement, Wilson was looked at as a luxury change of pace QB and it wasn't until he walked into the building that they realized they had struck gold.

Garrapolo was just bellichik being a doosh. 

Cousins was drafted in the 4th round not to replace RG3 but as insurance in case RQ3 got hurt--which he did and was a smart move.   

My point is, DRAFTING a guy 3rd then 3 years later DRAFTING a guy 2nd and trying to keep BOTH is a recipe for disaster.  Wentz Hurtz, Murray Rosen, Mark Geno,  Favre Rogers, Montana Young.  Hell, everyone totally disagrees with Rogers Love. 

We cannot draft Wilson and keep both he and Sam.  Gotta trade Sam.  If Mariota is realeased and we signed him it wouldn't be to replace Wilson, it'd be as a back-up/mentor/starter to give Wilson time to acclimate.  

I understand your point but it's clear you don't understand mine.  

If there was a prerequisite stating it had to be one drafted to replace another, I was unaware of it. All I saw was "if you've got 2 QBs you really have 0 QBs" or whatever the exact wording. If you have 0 QBs it's because none on the roster are any good, not because of some numbers game of having 2 on the roster (as though they'd be good if only the weren't sharing the QB room with each other). 

Garoppolo was drafted in round 2; there's a bit more to it than just Belichick being a douche and wanting to keep him over Brady as it looked like his career was winding down years ago. Brady's arm didn't look the same that it used to, and he was entering the age range where guys trail off and are now holding the team back. 

Cousins was a starting QB prospect. Whatever the goal (RGIII starting) he would have been insurance for not just injury but also for him being a bust. In the end, it was the latter: the year they went with Cousins as the week 1 starter I think RGIII was healthy enough to play. 

I could address more of those QB pairs, but the reason those others you mention were recipes for disaster is because at least one of the QB-duo sucked. Either at the time they drafted the next QB, before turning it around, or was and would always be sucky. This "Brees and Rivers don't count because Brees sucked before they drafted Rivers" idea is ridiculous. No team's drafting a second QB when they believe they have a bright future with the guy they have. Big fat duh. 

Sanchez sucked and Geno sucked. The Jets 'had 2 but really had 0' because they were both lousy QBs, not because they had 2 of them. If Geno didn't suck then this negative would've been a positive. Geno wasn't a bust because Sanchez was still on the roster, though. He was a bust because he sucked.

Drafting a second QB isn't what makes it a recipe for disaster. Drafting bad QBs is what makes it disastrous.

And for the record I'm in favor of dumping Darnold in particular if they draft another QB at #2. My rationale is the Geno/Sanchez example: it's not the insurance policy that advocates think, as they can both be bad. Darnold can win the competition and still not be a good QB. However if he was really such a likely turnaround then go with him for another season and use that #2 pick to build around him (a course of action I don't favor, mind you). Drafting someone else #2 and also turning down a 2nd rounder (or whatever it is they can get) for Darnold is stewpid, and it's poor allocation of a draft pick that can turn into a needed, starting difference-maker around the newly drafted QB. 

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11 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

@Peace Frog Dip your bread in these sauces. ;)  And again, Douglas was very much aboard in Baltimore at the time, having been with the team for nearly a decade by the time all this happened.

https://www.thepostgame.com/blog/throwback/201408/flying-high-baltimore-ravens-jamison-hensley-joe-flacco-steve-bisciotti

[After a pre-draft workout with Flacco]

Team officials walked to their cars in silence. They didn't even look at each other. With just a month left before the draft, the Ravens didn't want to give anyone watching a hint that they were so impressed with Flacco.

"It was there that we all looked at each other and kind of said the same thing: ‘Do you believe what we just saw?'" said Cam Cameron, the Ravens' offensive coordinator at the time.

So, imagine the Ravens' surprise when owner Steve Bisciotti challenged them to draft a different franchise quarterback -- Matt Ryan.

"I told those guys that if they had Matt Ryan listed as the best quarterback in the draft, then I'm willing to give up the whole damn draft for him," Bisciotti said. "I told them there is nothing worse for an owner or for them to be managing a business without a franchise quarterback. I said, ‘I don't care what we have to pay for him to trade up. We're getting Matt Ryan.'"

The Ravens, who were drafting No. 8 in 2008, knew they would have to jump six spots to No. 2 (and ahead of the Atlanta Falcons) to get Ryan. Baltimore called the St. Louis Rams, who had the second overall pick, and they wanted two first-round picks (2008 and 2009) along with the Ravens' picks in the second and third rounds.

Team officials convinced Bisciotti the smarter play was to trade back, acquire more picks, and take Flacco. The Ravens had Ryan rated as the No. 3 player in the entire draft and Flacco at No. 15. There wasn't much separation between the quarterbacks in the Ravens' opinion.

The team's scouts thought Flacco had a lower floor than Ryan, but he had the higher ceiling.

The Ravens dropped from a top-10 pick to near the bottom of the first round, which proved too far down to Bisciotti's liking. He started getting antsy that Flacco wouldn't drop to the Ravens. He didn't want to get stuck with a quarterback like Chad Henne or Brian Brohm, who weren't rated anywhere close to Flacco on the Ravens' board.

Bisciotti wanted the Ravens to trade a third-round pick and move up, but Eric DeCosta, the Ravens' director of player personnel at the time, didn't think the team should do it. DeCosta told Bisciotti that Flacco would be there at No. 26. Bisciotti then looked across the table at DeCosta and told him, "And what if he isn't? What if somebody takes him? Is it going to be worth an extra third-round pick? We have three of them. So, stop being a pick whore. Let's give up a third, and go back and get him, and be done with this."

The Ravens gave up a pick in the third and sixth rounds to Houston in order to go to No. 18 and take Flacco. At the news conference, general manager Ozzie Newsome essentially delivered the coronation of Flacco, calling him "the guy to lead our football team into the future."

ESPN NFL draft analyst Mel Kiper Jr. questioned the pick, saying Flacco was a second-round talent. The biggest criticism with Flacco was he played in Division I-AA against Towson and New Hampshire instead of national powers like Alabama and Texas.

Anyone who’s not in favor of trading for Watson is now considered a pick whore. 

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1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

If there was a prerequisite stating it had to be one drafted to replace another, I was unaware of it. All I saw was "if you've got 2 QBs you really have 0 QBs" or whatever the exact wording. If you have 0 QBs it's because none on the roster are any good, not because of some numbers game of having 2 on the roster (as though they'd be good if only the weren't sharing the QB room with each other). 

Garoppolo was drafted in round 2; there's a bit more to it than just Belichick being a douche and wanting to keep him over Brady as it looked like his career was winding down years ago. Brady's arm didn't look the same that it used to, and he was entering the age range where guys trail off and are now holding the team back. 

Cousins was a starting QB prospect. Whatever the goal (RGIII starting) he would have been insurance for not just injury but also for him being a bust. In the end, it was the latter: the year they went with Cousins as the week 1 starter I think RGIII was healthy enough to play. 

I could address more of those QB pairs, but the reason those others you mention were recipes for disaster is because at least one of the QB-duo sucked. Either at the time they drafted the next QB, before turning it around, or was and would always be sucky. This "Brees and Rivers don't count because Brees sucked before they drafted Rivers" idea is ridiculous. No team's drafting a second QB when they believe they have a bright future with the guy they have. Big fat duh. 

Sanchez sucked and Geno sucked. The Jets 'had 2 but really had 0' because they were both lousy QBs, not because they had 2 of them. If Geno didn't suck then this negative would've been a positive. Geno wasn't a bust because Sanchez was still on the roster, though. He was a bust because he sucked.

Drafting a second QB isn't what makes it a recipe for disaster. Drafting bad QBs is what makes it disastrous.

And for the record I'm in favor of dumping Darnold in particular if they draft another QB at #2. My rationale is the Geno/Sanchez example: it's not the insurance policy that advocates think, as they can both be bad. Darnold can win the competition and still not be a good QB. However if he was really such a likely turnaround then go with him for another season and use that #2 pick to build around him (a course of action I don't favor, mind you). Drafting someone else #2 and also turning down a 2nd rounder (or whatever it is they can get) for Darnold is stewpid, and it's poor allocation of a draft pick that can turn into a needed, starting difference-maker around the newly drafted QB. 

lol didn’t read. You’ve missed my point but you keep digging. 
 

Wentz Hurts Murray Rosen Trubisky Foles Darnold Wilson. 
 

Try another 1000 word nonsense essay. 

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3 hours ago, Peace Frog said:

lol didn’t read. You’ve missed my point but you keep digging. 
 

Wentz Hurts Murray Rosen Trubisky Foles Darnold Wilson. 
 

Try another 1000 word nonsense essay. 

Because you can list some examples of things that didn’t work out - i.e. because Rosen is bust this proves...something about a team adding another QB instead?

I don’t think anyone knows what you’re talking about — yourself included. 

Just an observation.

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8 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Because you can list some examples of things that didn’t work out - i.e. because Rosen is bust this proves...something about a team adding another QB instead?

I don’t think anyone knows what you’re talking about — yourself included. 

Just an observation.

Wait, who are you?  Why do I care about your observations?  I know exactly what I'm talking about--you can't keep Darnold and Wilson.  2 QBs means 0 QBs.  

You threw out a list of 20 starters and backups that had nothing to do with what I was talking about.  Trent Green and Kurt Warner?  Lol that's analogous.  Yes, you DON'T know what I'm talking about.  That's ok.

Just an observation.  

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24 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Wait, who are you?  Why do I care about your observations?  I know exactly what I'm talking about--you can't keep Darnold and Wilson.  2 QBs means 0 QBs.  

You threw out a list of 20 starters and backups that had nothing to do with what I was talking about.  Trent Green and Kurt Warner?  Lol that's analogous.  Yes, you DON'T know what I'm talking about.  That's ok.

Just an observation.  

Explain how Warner/Green aren't relevant to dispelling the myth that "if you have 2 QBs you really have 0 QBs"

Again, it doesn't appear anyone knows what you're talking about, yourself included. But you do you.

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10 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Explain how Warner/Green aren't relevant to dispelling the myth that "if you have 2 QBs you really have 0 QBs"

Again, it doesn't appear anyone knows what you're talking about, yourself included. But you do you.

Green/Warner? Hahahahaaa. Are you serious? Look, I get that you don't understand me and I'm sure everyone else appreciates you speaking for them.  How about you just put me on ignore. 

The old phrase "I can't explain it for you but I can't understand it for you too" applies here.

Put me on ignore.   

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2 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Green/Warner? Hahahahaaa. Are you serious? Look, I get that you don't understand me and I'm sure everyone else appreciates you speaking for them.  How about you just put me on ignore. 

The old phrase "I can't explain it for you but I can't understand it for you too" applies here.

Put me on ignore.   

He's a Mod.  He's not putting users on ignore.  

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1 minute ago, Warfish said:

He's a Mod.  He's not putting users on ignore.  

Thanks.  I have no idea who this guy is.  He seems unhealthily obsessed.  The shouting down of opinions seems pretty standard for todays youths.  

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12 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Thanks.  I have no idea who this guy is.  He seems unhealthily obsessed.  The shouting down of opinions seems pretty standard for todays youths.  

I'm pretty sure you're the only one who comes across as shouting here.

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2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I'm pretty sure you're the only one who comes across as shouting here.

You obviously don't understand what I'm talking about yet you continue to suggest my opinion is wrong.  I, quite frankly, don't care what you think. How about you find someone else to harrass.  Or not.  Don't care.  

Feel free to continue on.    

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18 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

You obviously don't understand what I'm talking about yet you continue to suggest my opinion is wrong.  I, quite frankly, don't care what you think. How about you find someone else to harrass.  Or not.  Don't care.  

Feel free to continue on.    

harass lol. I disagreed with you, gave you football not personally-pointed replies, and you threw a temper tantrum. 

If you didn't care to continue, then you'd let it go without "Imma get in the last word, and if you respond then that means you're a jerk," and then stand on ceremony like you're some model of maturity taking on however-many people in this thread. Badly, I might add.

Peace, Frog.

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3 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

 

harass lol. I disagreed with you, gave you football not personally-pointed replies, and you threw a temper tantrum. 

If you didn't care to continue, then you'd let it go without "Imma get in the last word, and if you respond then that means you're a jerk," and then stand on ceremony like you're some model of maturity taking on however-many people in this thread. Badly, I might add.

Peace, Frog.

Look, if you don’t have the ability to understand the concept of “2 QBs 0 QBs” take it up with John Madden. It was originally his quote, not mine.

If you disagree with it, that’s fine. But don’t tell me I’m wrong because you disagree with it. Or can’t understand it. Lol Trent Green/Kurt Warner = Darnold/Wilson.

You do seem like the “last word” kind of guy so go ahead, go for it. I’ll bow out now. You’re boring me. 

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15 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

If there was a prerequisite stating it had to be one drafted to replace another, I was unaware of it. All I saw was "if you've got 2 QBs you really have 0 QBs" or whatever the exact wording. If you have 0 QBs it's because none on the roster are any good, not because of some numbers game of having 2 on the roster (as though they'd be good if only the weren't sharing the QB room with each other). 

Garoppolo was drafted in round 2; there's a bit more to it than just Belichick being a douche and wanting to keep him over Brady as it looked like his career was winding down years ago. Brady's arm didn't look the same that it used to, and he was entering the age range where guys trail off and are now holding the team back. 

Cousins was a starting QB prospect. Whatever the goal (RGIII starting) he would have been insurance for not just injury but also for him being a bust. In the end, it was the latter: the year they went with Cousins as the week 1 starter I think RGIII was healthy enough to play. 

I could address more of those QB pairs, but the reason those others you mention were recipes for disaster is because at least one of the QB-duo sucked. Either at the time they drafted the next QB, before turning it around, or was and would always be sucky. This "Brees and Rivers don't count because Brees sucked before they drafted Rivers" idea is ridiculous. No team's drafting a second QB when they believe they have a bright future with the guy they have. Big fat duh. 

Sanchez sucked and Geno sucked. The Jets 'had 2 but really had 0' because they were both lousy QBs, not because they had 2 of them. If Geno didn't suck then this negative would've been a positive. Geno wasn't a bust because Sanchez was still on the roster, though. He was a bust because he sucked.

Drafting a second QB isn't what makes it a recipe for disaster. Drafting bad QBs is what makes it disastrous.

And for the record I'm in favor of dumping Darnold in particular if they draft another QB at #2. My rationale is the Geno/Sanchez example: it's not the insurance policy that advocates think, as they can both be bad. Darnold can win the competition and still not be a good QB. However if he was really such a likely turnaround then go with him for another season and use that #2 pick to build around him (a course of action I don't favor, mind you). Drafting someone else #2 and also turning down a 2nd rounder (or whatever it is they can get) for Darnold is stewpid, and it's poor allocation of a draft pick that can turn into a needed, starting difference-maker around the newly drafted QB. 

You need to explore this thing called brevity. 

Summarize your position/posit your speculation in 3 sentences or less. 

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20 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Look, if you don’t have the ability to understand the concept of “2 QBs 0 QBs” take it up with John Madden. It was originally his quote, not mine.

If you disagree with it, that’s fine. But don’t tell me I’m wrong because you disagree with it. Or can’t understand it. Lol Trent Green/Kurt Warner = Darnold/Wilson.

You do seem like the “last word” kind of guy so go ahead, go for it. I’ll bow out now. You’re boring me. 

The very definition of a "last word kind of guy" is someone who states his position and then says "I'm done and am ending this discussion" in so many words.

You've now done it twice in a row. 

I've said, in so many words, the quote - however catchy anyone finds it - is demonstrably wrong. If you take that personally that's on you, Frog.

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16 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The very definition of a "last word kind of guy" is someone who states his position and then says "I'm done and am ending this discussion" in so many words.

You've now done it twice in a row. 

I've said, in so many words, the quote - however catchy anyone finds it - is demonstrably wrong. If you take that personally that's on you, Frog.

Look what Wilson's done to this place, and we haven't even drafted him yet.

*sad face*

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2 hours ago, Peace Frog said:

Thanks.  I have no idea who this guy is.  He seems unhealthily obsessed.  The shouting down of opinions seems pretty standard for todays youths.  

He's one of JN's best and most insightful and well informed posters.

He is one of few who, when they disagree with me, I sit back and go "sh*t, maybe I need to rethink this a bit".

JMO.

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10 minutes ago, Warfish said:

He's one of JN's best and most insightful and well informed posters.

He is one of few who, when they disagree with me, I sit back and go "sh*t, maybe I need to rethink this a bit".

JMO.

I actually find him very insighful if not a tad verbose. One of my favorite reads.

But because someone is generally insightful or favorable to me does not mean that I must agree with everything they say--especially when I think they are misguided, misunderstand or are missing a point and keep digging.  Hell, I even admitted to him I was wrong about Flacco. 

But some things do not need rethinking. 

JMO.  

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