***OFFICIAL*** FIRE JOE DOUGLAS THREAD

[defensedoesntgetyoulaid]

1 hour ago, SAR I said:

I count 9 out of 21 that were either elite or Top 10 quality.

That's a better hit rate than 1st round quarterbacks.

It's certainly a better hit rate than anything any Jets GM has accomplished in decades.

We need a bonafide, dependable, star running back.  It's never a priority in the draft.  It's time.  When we were good, we could run the ball.  We suck in large part because we can't.

SAR I

You wouldn't rather use your impressive draft resources to build a beast of an O-line?

This would not only give Zach more time to throw, but it would mean you could plug and play from a variety of RBs, so if injury struck you'd still have a good chance of being effective when the next man stepped in.

[SAR I]

1 hour ago, slimjasi said:

You don't need a star at running back.

When we were good, we had Freeman McNeil, Curtis Martin, Ladanian Tomlinson, and Shonn Greene.  That's two Hall of Famers and two very reliable ground gainers.  We need a star at running back.

1 hour ago, slimjasi said:

The smart organizations find their RBs in the mid to late rounds of the draft. 

Not this one.

SAR I

[SAR I]

1 hour ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

9?????? Your standards are low.  Tell us these 9 elite backs please.  I count 4 that were arguably worth a #1 pick.  Gordon (borderline),  Gurley (career like a comet - short shelf life) , Elliott and McCaffrey (he now can't stay healthy either, so he only performed for two seasons)  Harris is too early to tell and Barkley can't stay on the field.  A player who is successful with another team - Fournette - doesn't count.  

You have the 4 elites; I said the rest were Top 10 quality.  And they are.

Listen, I don't care where we get a Top 10 running back.  What I can tell you is that we suck at drafting that position and it's something that Joe Douglas is supposed to fix.  And he hasn't.  He just ignored it this year.  A burned out Falcon and a petite rookie who wasn't even the best RB in his school.

SAR I

[SAR I]

14 minutes ago, defensedoesntgetyoulaid said:

You wouldn't rather use your impressive draft resources to build a beast of an O-line?

This would not only give Zach more time to throw, but it would mean you could plug and play from a variety of RBs, so if injury struck you'd still have a good chance of being effective when the next man stepped in.

Here's how low my expectations of Joe Douglas are:

I would settle for a single playmaker in each of his drafts and free agent periods, you know, just to replace the ones he so easily traded away.

We need so many pieces that focusing only on the OL for another year is negligent.  There isn't a single player on this team that would start for any NFL playoff team.  We are an expansion team.  It never needed to be like this.

SAR I

[Joe Willie White Shoes]

2 minutes ago, SAR I said:

You have the 4 elites; I said the rest were Top 10 quality.  And they are.

Listen, I don't care where we get a Top 10 running back.  What I can tell you is that we suck at drafting that position and it's something that Joe Douglas is supposed to fix.  And he hasn't.  He just ignored it this year.  A burned out Falcon and a petite rookie who wasn't even the best RB in his school.

SAR I

Good deflection.  I would not call Gordon elite.  And McCaffrey has now missed chunks of the past two years.  That is the problem with RB - the careers are too short and they are always injured.  You can't name 9 top ten backs on that list of first rounders.   Some had a decent year or two, but most were nobodys or spent more time in the training room than on the field.  RB is down the list of reasons for the slow start.

[68JET11]

8 hours ago, SAR I said:

He's been here 3 1/2 years and you want to act like it's Year 1?  You ran Gase out of town after 4 games and you want to give Douglas 5 years?

Like the fans, this is what's wrong with the Jets.  Mental gymnastics to justify lousy personnel decisions.

SAR I

Never ran GASE out after 4 games, I gave him his entire tenure here, but after watching the #$^%show, I made an informed decision that he wasn't the right coach for this team. And if you think that like you said that JD was GASE's hand picked GM, then he should have been in lock step with him, and I'm betting that GASE had a big say in who he picked. Now before you jump off a bridge, I'm sure JD and Saleh are together on draft picks as well, difference is that JD probably (not sure yet) had his best draft this past year. If he continues in that direction, not sure how you can keep blabbering he's a bad GM.

[SAR I]

9 minutes ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

RB is down the list of reasons for the slow start.

LOL, okay:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/#rushing_and_receiving

SAR I

[SAR I]

6 minutes ago, 68JET11 said:

I'm sure JD and Saleh are together on draft picks as well, difference is that JD probably (not sure yet) had his best draft this past year. If he continues in that direction, not sure how you can keep blabbering he's a bad GM.

I, of course, pray that you are correct, that JD is a great GM off to a slow start and that Saleh is the real deal.

Still, the proof is in our record.  We're 3-18 under Joe Douglas.  1-4 under Robert Saleh.  No evidence of a culture change.  No evidence of an abundance of offensive playmakers.  No rushing attack.  No interceptions.  #32 almost universally in power rankings.  We are at rock bottom.  

SAR I

[slimjasi]

2 minutes ago, SAR I said:

When we were good, we had Freeman McNeil, Curtis Martin, Ladanian Tomlinson, and Shonn Greene.  That's two Hall of Famers and two very reliable ground gainers.  We need a star at running back.

Not this one.

SAR I

LOL, no we don't. What is the last team that won a SB because of a star running back? The Broncos in 98? LOL. It's a passing league now. This is such an antiquated way to look at the NFL. Running backs are a dime a dozen. 

Also, Curtis Martin was a 3rd round pick. 1st round pick does not mean star running back. Plenty of star running backs come from the mid rounds.

Just because the Jets suck at drafting doesn't mean that great running backs can't be found in the mid rounds. 

[68JET11]

13 minutes ago, SAR I said:

I, of course, pray that you are correct, that JD is a great GM off to a slow start and that Saleh is the real deal.

Still, the proof is in our record.  We're 3-18 under Joe Douglas.  1-4 under Robert Saleh.  No evidence of a culture change.  No evidence of an abundance of offensive playmakers.  No rushing attack.  No interceptions.  #32 almost universally in power rankings.  We are at rock bottom.  

SAR I

So I'll tell you the difference... I get Saleh is a new HC, but I see the players, playing out their A$$ for him. It's not translating to wins just yet, but that's the difference between your buddy GASE and Saleh. We are a bit behind in the player ability, but the youngin's on defense are playing hard, and most of them were late rounders. The offense is a nightmare, and I'm not sure LaFleur quite has it together though. I question him much more than I question Saleh. The tell tale for me to start questioning Saleh is if he's too stubborn at the end of this season if all continues the same to not make the necessary changes needed to put together a top notch offense. Remember, he's already made the decision to coach the entire team, and I'm sure he might have a small hand in the defense, but for the most part, he's letting Lafleur, and Ulbrich have at it.

[legler82]

49 minutes ago, 68JET11 said:

So I'll tell you the difference... I get Saleh is a new HC, but I see the players, playing out their A$$ for him. It's not translating to wins just yet, but that's the difference between your buddy GASE and Saleh. We are a bit behind in the player ability, but the youngin's on defense are playing hard, and most of them were late rounders. The offense is a nightmare, and I'm not sure LaFleur quite has it together though. I question him much more than I question Saleh. The tell tale for me to start questioning Saleh is if he's too stubborn at the end of this season if all continues the same to not make the necessary changes needed to put together a top notch offense. Remember, he's already made the decision to coach the entire team, and I'm sure he might have a small hand in the defense, but for the most part, he's letting Lafleur, and Ulbrich have at it.

I see the defense playing their asses off for him.  I don’t get that same vibe from the offense.

[The Crusher]

1 hour ago, SAR I said:

Here's how low my expectations of Joe Douglas are:

I would settle for a single playmaker in each of his drafts and free agent periods, you know, just to replace the ones he so easily traded away.

We need so many pieces that focusing only on the OL for another year is negligent.  There isn't a single player on this team that would start for any NFL playoff team.  We are an expansion team.  It never needed to be like this.

SAR I

He traded away playmakers? Or guys that got paid like playmakers? There is a distinct difference. 

[southparkcpa]

1 hour ago, SAR I said:

I, of course, pray that you are correct, that JD is a great GM off to a slow start and that Saleh is the real deal.

Still, the proof is in our record.  We're 3-18 under Joe Douglas.  1-4 under Robert Saleh.  No evidence of a culture change.  No evidence of an abundance of offensive playmakers.  No rushing attack.  No interceptions.  #32 almost universally in power rankings.  We are at rock bottom.  

SAR I

And Marcus Maye wants out.   

[SAR I]

1 hour ago, slimjasi said:

LOL, no we don't. What is the last team that won a SB because of a star running back? The Broncos in 98? LOL. It's a passing league now. This is such an antiquated way to look at the NFL. Running backs are a dime a dozen. 

Also, Curtis Martin was a 3rd round pick. 1st round pick does not mean star running back. Plenty of star running backs come from the mid rounds.

Just because the Jets suck at drafting doesn't mean that great running backs can't be found in the mid rounds. 

Super Bowl?  Super Bowl?  LOL.  We aren't building a championship team here.  We just need to get back to relevance, league average would be nice.

Last time I checked, a legitimate rushing threat keeps the D honest and doesn't allow them to disregard the run and tee off on Wilson.  Not to mention helping us with time of possession, keeping our D off the field, etc. etc.

SAR I

[#27TheDominator]

56 minutes ago, legler82 said:

I see the defense playing their asses off for him.  I don’t get that same vibe from the offense.

Small fast guys running around always look like they are playing their asses off.  The problem with the offense isn't effort, it is execution.  Offense requires concentration and being in the right place at the right time.  Maybe a power run game can be done on effort, but the rest of offense requires more robotic attention to detail.  Particularly in a zone blocking, option route scheme. 

I would argue that many of this issues: Zach's hero ball and missing easy throws.  drops, and missed assignments are the kind of things that often stem from pressing.  

[legler82]

5 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Small fast guys running around always look like they are playing their asses off.  The problem with the offense isn't effort, it is execution.  Offense requires concentration and being in the right place at the right time.  Maybe a power run game can be done on effort, but the rest of offense requires more robotic attention to detail.  Particularly in a zone blocking, option route scheme. 

I would argue that many of this issues: Zach's hero ball and missing easy throws.  drops, and missed assignments are the kind of things that often stem from pressing.  

Problem is pressing and sucking tend to look very similar.

[doitny]

2 hours ago, SAR I said:

 

We need so many pieces that focusing only on the OL for another year is negligent. 

SAR I

now there we agree.

Becton, AVT and Moses or another FA should be enough. we need more playmakers.. 

[slimjasi]

29 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Super Bowl?  Super Bowl?  LOL.  We aren't building a championship team here.  We just need to get back to relevance, league average would be nice.

Last time I checked, a legitimate rushing threat keeps the D honest and doesn't allow them to disregard the run and tee off on Wilson.  Not to mention helping us with time of possession, keeping our D off the field, etc. etc.

SAR I

A legitimate rushing threat comes from an OL and several capable RBs- not a big name. 

[Sperm Edwards]

On 10/14/2021 at 11:32 AM, kevinc855 said:

At the same Time you dismiss a 6-2 finish (one or the best in the league) your credibility takes a shot when you point to the loss of a passing game coordinator as apparently the fatal hole in the staff. If the staff was designed to be so weak that losing their passing game coordinator be fatal to the staff then you have weak leaders and a poorly designed staff 

Personally? Yeah I absolutely dismiss that 6-2 finish.

1. Beat Washington, who finished the season 3-13.
2. Beat the Giants, who finished the season 4-12 (2 of those 4 wins coming against 3-win Washington).
3. Beat Oakland, who was a paper tiger anyway. Hadn't beaten any good team; just barely beat Cincinnatti the week before; and the Jets loss was just one of five losses over their last 6 games. 
4. But before getting too excited about that one, then lost to the 0-11 Bengals (who'd then lose the next 3 after beating us).
5. Beat 5-11 Miami on a ticky-tack DPI call. They also lost to the Giants a week later.
6. Got destroyed by the Ravens; the only serious team we faced and it was a bloodbath.
7. Eked one out vs Pittsburgh amid their musical chairs/QBs between Delvin Hodges and Mason Rudolph. Delvin Hodges started for them at QB and made doody in his pants for the first half; when he was relieved, Mason Rudolph looked like Peyton Manning against us, but luckily Pittsburgh's receivers were doing their impression of the 2021 Jets (4 of his 6 incomplete passes were drops).
8. Barely beat Buffalo's backups & practice squadders as the Bills rested their starters against us. We gave up 180 receiving yards to Duke Williams and Tommy Sweeney, on the receiving end of the great Matt Barkley, and against these non-NFLers Gase's Jets were actually losing this game as it entered the 4th quarter.

This was not some half-season of prowess or even building blocks. The Jets sucked, and beat some teams that were either just as bad, worse, or a couple that may have been marginally better but still sucked themselves.

[#27TheDominator]

24 minutes ago, legler82 said:

Problem is pressing and sucking tend to look very similar.

Oh, make no mistake.  They suck. 

I am just saying that it isn't necessarily from lack of effort.  Playing your ass off extra effort is more likely to pay off on D or a short yardage push type of thing.  On offense, other than guys actually dogging it, extra effort isn't necessarily the difference.

[#27TheDominator]

12 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Personally? Yeah I absolutely dismiss that 6-2 finish.

1. Beat Washington, who finished the season 3-13.
2. Beat the Giants, who finished the season 4-12 (2 of those 4 wins coming against 3-win Washington).
3. Beat Oakland, who was a paper tiger anyway. Hadn't beaten any good team; just barely beat Cincinnatti the week before; and the Jets loss was just one of five losses over their last 6 games. 
4. But before getting too excited about that one, then lost to the 0-11 Bengals (who'd then lose the next 3 after beating us).
5. Beat 5-11 Miami on a ticky-tack DPI call. They also lost to the Giants a week later.
6. Got destroyed by the Ravens; the only serious team we faced and it was a bloodbath.
7. Eked one out vs Pittsburgh amid their musical QBs between Delvin Hodges and Mason Rudolph. Delvin Hodges started for them at QB and made doody in his pants for the first half; when he was relieved, Mason Rudolph looked like Peyton Manning against us, but luckily Pittsburgh's receivers were doing their impression of the 2021 Jets (4 of his 6 incomplete passes were drops).
8. Barely beat Buffalo's backups & practice squadders as the Bills rested their starters against us. We gave up 180 receiving yards to Duke Williams and Tommy Sweeney, on the receiving end of the great Matt Barkley, and against these non-NFLers Gase's Jets were actually losing this game as it entered the 4th quarter.

This was not some half-season of prowess or even building blocks. The Jets sucked, and beat some teams that were either just as bad, worse, or a couple that may have been marginally better but still sucked themselves.

Ooooh!  Ooooh!  Now do 2008!

[Sperm Edwards]

Just now, #27TheDominator said:

Ooooh!  Ooooh!  Now do 2008!

If we're going to do this in sequence as we go back, we first have to stop in 2015 on the way  

[#27TheDominator]

2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

If we're going to do this in sequence as we go back, we first have to stop in 2015 on the way  

A late hit is a perfectly reasonable way to win the opener!

[Jetsfan80]

7 hours ago, playtowinthegame said:

For sure. I take Natures Made D³ 1000 IU/25 mcg daily in addition to a multi-vitamin with 1600 IU/40 mcg. Vitamin D³ is also great natural testosterone booster for men. Adds fuel to the fire. And by the way she'll like it too.

Now you sound like Frank Thomas.  ?

 

[Jetsfan80]

4 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I was not aware that this thread has gotten this nasty. You people are out of your minds. Especially when you consider the fact that Joe Douglas is currently on a trajectory to get himself fired in two years. Most GMs are on a similar trajectory. They all get fired eventually. 

Right but we need Douglas to become the next poor man's Ozzie Newsome or else we're screwed.  The Johnson's will never nail a GM hire.  

Hence the emotion behind the debate.  There's urgency here.

[Maxman]

13 hours ago, SAR I said:

Not at all.

Use Joe Douglas as an example, he's had 2 drafts and 2 free agency periods and his first season was 2-14 and his second season is looking like 3-14 and his player hit rate is looking like 20%.

Based on this, firing him on the last day of the season when the record is 5-28 and moving on to the next GM who might do better is appropriate.

The Cleveland Browns were in a similar situation to the Jets.  They went through 3 GM's and 4 HC's in 6 years.  They were laughed at, they were called dysfunctional.  Look at them now.  Like the lottery, the more tickets you have the more likely you are to hit a winner.

SAR I

If Woody Johnson is the one picking the balls I will stick with the lottery ticket we currently have for the next 20 years.

[Jetsfan80]

4 hours ago, slimjasi said:

You don't need a star at running back. The smart organizations find their RBs in the mid to late rounds of the draft. 

Yep.  And even if your system does somehow require a stud or someone solid at RB, you can often find those in the 2nd-4th rounds. 

The 1st round RB list @Joe Willie White Shoes posted is indeed not impressive given the capital required to pick one, but the Rd 2-4 list is pretty good.  It includes guys like Derrick Henry, Dalvin Cook, Le'Veon Bell, Alvin Kamara, Nick Chubb, Joe Mixon, LeSean McCoy, DeMarco Murray, David Johnson, Kareem Hunt, Antonio Gibson, Jonathan Taylor, J.K. Dobbins, Lamar Miller and Devonta Freeman.

Sure, there are tons of RB busts in that range too, but the rate is hardly any worse than the 1st round bust rate, and at least you're not burning a 1 to find that out.

In any case, anyone pining for a 1st round RB to be drafted by the Jets will have a bit of a wait on their hands.  Neither Douglas nor Saleh will ever get behind that.  We've also had a series of GM's over the years who didn't like using 1st rounders on RBs, so either that's somehow an ownership philosophy too or maybe most GM's these days are simply against drafting RB's in the 1st.  Which history has proven to be the right call.

[RutgersJetFan]

You geniuses solve this one yet or nah

[T0mShane]

8 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Personally? Yeah I absolutely dismiss that 6-2 finish.

This is encouraging because we have a bunch of very winnable games coming up against pretty week competition. Thoroughly looking forward to Saleh going on his own upcoming 6-2 run that we can outright dismiss in a few years. 

[Scott Dierking]

15 hours ago, SAR I said:

By drafting them in the first couple of rounds before all the elite ones are taken.

 

SAR I

This thread should have ended with this brilliant piece of prose.

C’mon guys, draft elite players before the elite players are gone. Duh, some of you guys are really stupid.

[SAR I]

7 hours ago, Maxman said:

If Woody Johnson is the one picking the balls I will stick with the lottery ticket we currently have for the next 20 years.

(Not sure if I should mention that ball was picked by Adam Gase)

SAR I

[kevinc855]

8 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Personally? Yeah I absolutely dismiss that 6-2 finish.

1. Beat Washington, who finished the season 3-13.
2. Beat the Giants, who finished the season 4-12 (2 of those 4 wins coming against 3-win Washington).
3. Beat Oakland, who was a paper tiger anyway. Hadn't beaten any good team; just barely beat Cincinnatti the week before; and the Jets loss was just one of five losses over their last 6 games. 
4. But before getting too excited about that one, then lost to the 0-11 Bengals (who'd then lose the next 3 after beating us).
5. Beat 5-11 Miami on a ticky-tack DPI call. They also lost to the Giants a week later.
6. Got destroyed by the Ravens; the only serious team we faced and it was a bloodbath.
7. Eked one out vs Pittsburgh amid their musical QBs between Delvin Hodges and Mason Rudolph. Delvin Hodges started for them at QB and made doody in his pants for the first half; when he was relieved, Mason Rudolph looked like Peyton Manning against us, but luckily Pittsburgh's receivers were doing their impression of the 2021 Jets (4 of his 6 incomplete passes were drops).
8. Barely beat Buffalo's backups & practice squadders as the Bills rested their starters against us. We gave up 180 receiving yards to Duke Williams and Tommy Sweeney, on the receiving end of the great Matt Barkley, and against these non-NFLers Gase's Jets were actually losing this game as it entered the 4th quarter.

This was not some half-season of prowess or even building blocks. The Jets sucked, and beat some teams that were either just as bad, worse, or a couple that may have been marginally better but still sucked themselves.

Ok the next time we win; if we do this year, if they aren’t against super bowl contenders I will remind you of that as well. 
 

What a garbage post. In the NFL a W is a W 

[kevinc855]

13 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

This is encouraging because we have a bunch of very winnable games coming up against pretty week competition. Thoroughly looking forward to Saleh going on his own upcoming 6-2 run that we can outright dismiss in a few years. 

Yep so no complaints. Gase team can beat “bad teams” Then so can we right? 
 

I mean Atlanta was certainly a power house 

[SAR I]

18 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

This is encouraging because we have a bunch of very winnable games coming up against pretty week competition. Thoroughly looking forward to Saleh going on his own upcoming 6-2 run that we can outright dismiss in a few years. 

The 2021 schedule is just as easy as the 2019 schedule.

Robert Saleh isn’t using his 3rd string quarterback followed by his energy-depleted mononucleosis starter.

Robert Saleh isn’t trying to motivate a team with 16 players on IR under the pressure of planes and billboards calling for his firing and protests at Florham Park  

The 2019 Jets would be 3-2 right now with wins over Carolina, Tennessee, and Atlanta.  

The 2019 Jets would defeat the 2021 Jets 30-3 which is ironic since the post-2019 Jets are headed to a record of 3-30.  

SAR I
 

[SAR I]

1 hour ago, Scott Dierking said:

This thread should have ended with this brilliant piece of prose.

C’mon guys, draft elite players before the elite players are gone. Duh, some of you guys are really stupid.

We don't draft good running backs because we never go for one of the A+ prospects and always go fishing for a bargain in later rounds.  Not exactly a refutable claim.

SAR I