How far do you think we could move up if we trade 23 and 34?

[nycdan]

1 minute ago, bitonti said:

You're mistaken, friend. 

Larry Allen is a 7x All pro over 14 years 

Quenton Nelson is a 3x All pro in 3 years 

Nelson needs to make 4 more all Pros in 11 potential years to reach Larry Allen

Larry Allen was also arrested for a bunch of crap 

Shoot man, Nelson might be better than Allen, hence the best guard of all time. He is going to Canton. 

You want to bet on it? I'll be here in 15 years, God willing. It's not a fact it's a prediction I'm willing to bet money on 

meanwhile 

Darnold's going to the Circle K in Capistrano Beach

 

how can the decision to move up for Darnold NOT take into account passing on Nelson? 

 

WHAT A TERRIBLE A PICK 

You are failing to see the difference in being an All Pro because you're the best in your period versus being dominant beyond anything the league has seen before or since.  # of All Pro seasons does not equal GOAT.  Not even close.  And Larry Allen's extracurricular activities don't change the math here at all.  Basically you're arguing that Mike Singletary was a better all-time LB than Lawrence Taylor.  Exactly same setup.  Good luck with that.  BTW, Zack Martin's career started out almost the same as Nelson's.  Dominant for six years.  Nobody's talking about GOAT anymore.

I'm not debating the Darnold pick here.  That's another topic.  I'm saying you're trying to spin a ridiculous argument by tying it to another one because it doesn't have any legs.  I know you think differently and that's fine.  But in this case, your opinion is way the hell over the lunatic fringe.

You can grab the last word if you like.  I can't add anything more and it's not really that important.  But damn...

[isired]

Quenton Nelson is having a Larry Allen type career
Meanwhile we are trying to wring a second Rd pick out of darnold
A guy they used 3 overall and 3 2nd Rd picks on 
I'll say it again
What a terrible pick 

Jets have a pretty bad record with trading up in the first- from DRob to Sanchez to Darnold, and they were saved from themselves in like 2000 when they couldn't convince Cleveland to give up 1/1 (Courtney Brown) or Cinci to give up the 4th pick (Peter Warick to replace Keyshawn) and ended up with Ellis, Abraham, Pennington and Becht - I'm sure there are more. Only Revis comes to mind as a successful trade up.

I wonder if this is a league-wide trend? Is trading up in the first historically a bad move?

[bitonti]

3 minutes ago, nycdan said:

  But in this case, your opinion is way the hell over the lunatic fringe. 

You can have the last word. What is it again? Larry Allen is better than Quenton Nelson? 

most people believe John Hannah to be the GOAT guard.  10x all Pro 

I wasn't around for him, or Larry Allen in college. But Nelson at ND is the best guard film Ive ever seen. 

There are other names, Gene Upshaw, Jerry Kramer, Steve Hutchinson. Allen might be the 4th or 5th guard of all time, Nelson aside. 

for me, Quenton Nelson is the best guard in the history of the league, it's that simple 

Pending injury (like Zack Martin), his career is going to exceed that of Allen's. 

I don't know how else to evaluate GOAT except for All Pro divided by year that's basically how the committee does it 

it's not purely a ring operation, as demonstrated by Hannah 

bottom line we are nitpicking Nelson as a potential Hall of Famer after year 3  

[Sperm Edwards]

On 3/21/2021 at 10:50 AM, bitonti said:

Premium ol don't go 23 and 34

Decent Starters are there. The premium players go top 10

What? Where do you get these ideas from?

The Jets already have a LT. It is unusual for probowl/all-pro guards, centers, and RTs to get drafted inside the top 10. There have been maybe 3 from all those positions combined in the past decade. 

Plus most (if not all) of those top-10-drafted RTs, at that, are ones who couldn't hack it on the blind side even though they were drafted with the idea they'd play there immediately or eventually, or there was pretty much no one else to draft. If all one is seeking is a RT upgrade you can do that in FA pretty much any offseason.

[bitonti]

9 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

What? Where do you get these ideas from?

The Jets already have a LT. It is unusual for probowl/all-pro guards, centers, and RTs to get drafted inside the top 10. There have been maybe 3 from all those positions combined in the past decade. 

Plus most (if not all) of those top-10-drafted RTs, at that, are ones who couldn't hack it on the blind side even though they were drafted with the idea they'd play there immediately or eventually, or there was pretty much no one else to draft. If all one is seeking is a RT upgrade you can do that in FA pretty much any offseason.

Oh yeah so who in free agency upgraded their right tackle situation this offseason? 

I want names 

This isn't about need by the way its about taking what the draft offers. 

[isired]

Not at all. This isn't an argument over which picks hit with a greater frequency. It not cherry picking when a significant amount of OT picked in the top 10 are busts. It's more than a cherry picked few. 

What's your point then? I think I missed it.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, bitonti said:

Oh yeah so who in free agency upgraded their right tackle situation this offseason? 

I want names 

This isn't about need by the way its about taking what the draft offers. 

This is a justification for burning the #2 pick in the draft to upgrade? What soon-to-be-fired GM would agree with that? 

How many playoff teams drafted their RTs inside the top 10? Almost none.

Where do you think most of these good or premium RTs come from? And since when is a premium RT - let alone via a high draft pick - a prerequisite for a playoff/Super Bowl berth in the first place? 

Almost all of them come from either outside the top 10 (if not from outside round 1 outright) and/or came via FA outright because teams with a premium young LT and RT typically can't keep both. 

If you're just isolating one year solutions - since you're advocating using the #2 pick to upgrade RT because of a one-year situation - then in the absence of a Conklin or Mitch Schwartz being available this particular offseason, then any team with more than one hole is better off signing someone like Riley Reiff at RT for $7.5MM at a cost of zero draft picks, than similar money plus the trade value of 2-3 first round picks on a rookie instead, no matter how talented he is.  

In addition to Reiff, there are still other veterans available who would/will be upgrades on other teams who really just need a RT upgrade over what they've got; they just haven't signed yet. Among them: Okung, Fisher (though he'll probably re-sign with KC as their LT), Villanueva, Wagner, Peters, Dotson. Maybe more, but that's plenty long of a list for a random offseason, considering every team doesn't presently need (or anyway isn't looking for) a RT upgrade, and into their 30s most these guys are more likely to follow the money than worry about the ego (and overall lower pay) of playing RT for 5 more years like Orlando Brown.

It is irrelevant whether Sewell becomes a better player than any or all of them; any are more than adequate players to run whatever offense they fit into. None of them will cost their teams 2-3 first round picks to acquire. Even in your wildest dreams, he's not 2-3 cheap first round picks better. The path to the SB is behind the best team not the best pair of tackles. 

Any GM of a rebuilding team with 5-10 starter holes (including QB, mind you) like the Jets, who'd trade upwards of 3 first round picks (including the first one at/around #10 plus 1-2 more thereafter) to upgrade from a veteran like Ricky Wagner to Penei Sewell, because the RT FA market is deemed too light this year, is a GM who'll be deservedly fired very soon. 

Now you: where do most "premium" RTs (and guards and centers, frankly) come from? As in, overwhelmingly. Inside the top 5-10 or outside the top 5-10?

[bitonti]

33 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

This is a justification for burning the #2 pick in the draft to upgrade? What soon-to-be-fired GM would agree with that? 

How many playoff teams drafted their RTs inside the top 10? Almost none.

Where do you think most of these good or premium RTs come from? And since when is a premium RT - let alone via a high draft pick - a prerequisite for a playoff/Super Bowl berth in the first place? 

Almost all of them come from either outside the top 10 (if not from outside round 1 outright) and/or came via FA outright because teams with a premium young LT and RT typically can't keep both. 

If you're just isolating one year solutions - since you're advocating using the #2 pick to upgrade RT because of a one-year situation - then in the absence of a Conklin or Mitch Schwartz being available this particular offseason, then any team with more than one hole is better off signing someone like Riley Reiff at RT for $7.5MM at a cost of zero draft picks, than similar money plus the trade value of 2-3 first round picks on a rookie instead, no matter how talented he is.  

In addition to Reiff, there are still other veterans available who would/will be upgrades on other teams who really just need a RT upgrade over what they've got; they just haven't signed yet. Among them: Okung, Fisher (though he'll probably re-sign with KC as their LT), Villanueva, Wagner, Peters, Dotson. Maybe more, but that's plenty long of a list for a random offseason, considering every team doesn't presently need (or anyway isn't looking for) a RT upgrade, and into their 30s most these guys are more likely to follow the money than worry about the ego (and overall lower pay) of playing RT for 5 more years like Orlando Brown.

It is irrelevant whether Sewell becomes a better player than any or all of them; any are more than adequate players to run whatever offense they fit into. None of them will cost their teams 2-3 first round picks to acquire. Even in your wildest dreams, he's not 2-3 cheap first round picks better. The path to the SB is behind the best team not the best pair of tackles. 

Any GM of a rebuilding team with 5-10 starter holes (including QB, mind you) like the Jets, who'd trade upwards of 3 first round picks (including the first one at/around #10 plus 1-2 more thereafter) to upgrade from a veteran like Ricky Wagner to Penei Sewell, because the RT FA market is deemed too light this year, is a GM who'll be deservedly fired very soon. 

Now you: where do most "premium" RTs (and guards and centers, frankly) come from? As in, overwhelmingly. Inside the top 5-10 or outside the top 5-10?

Mitchell Schwartz is available this offseason, fwiw 

Becton is a premium rt who comes from outside the top 10, playing lt out of necessity 

Whoever drafts Sewell will have to play him at left tackle 

Look, before we go to down the position rabbit hole, they are drafting players not positions

Ie an instant pro bowl tackle is better outcome than a qb on IR forever 

If we had to put a percentage on wilson or fields busting it's like 50/50

Guys like Sewell, slater, Pitts, Smith etc are sure things by comparison 

Jets Fans are so thirsty for qb they want to swing wildly 

This is the highest they have picked in decades 

I just don't want the next guy to bust 

Wilson is a human being who has other options. He might just retire after a couple of concussions. He is not blessed with any world class traits 

By comparison, Sewell (whom I'd bet money you never watched play) is not only a world class athlete but the type of player who grabs the other linemen by the face mask and holds them accountable 

Players like that don't come around every draft. There are undersized coin flip qbs in every draft 

That's the issue. Not how should they allocate resources. Drafting players that change the losing ways of the franchise. Guys that won't bust no matter what 

Wilson, fields these guys have value but they are way more risky than their fans care to admit 

The Jets need to build a program before they draft their savior qb. Do it the other way around is how we ended up with darnold a bust at 23

Its not random. Qbs need infrastructure 

[section314]

5 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Mitchell Schwartz is available this offseason, fwiw 

Becton is a premium rt who comes from outside the top 10, playing lt out of necessity 

Whoever drafts Sewell will have to play him at left tackle 

Look, before we go to down the position rabbit hole, they are drafting players not positions

Ie an instant pro bowl tackle is better outcome than a qb on IR forever 

If we had to put a percentage on wilson or fields busting it's like 50/50

Guys like Sewell, slater, Pitts, Smith etc are sure things by comparison 

Jets Fans are so thirsty for qb they want to swing wildly 

This is the highest they have picked in decades 

I just don't want the next guy to bust 

Wilson is a human being who has other options. He might just retire after a couple of concussions. He is not blessed with any world class traits 

By comparison, Sewell (whom I'd bet money you never watched play) is not only a world class athlete but the type of player who grabs the other linemen by the face mask and holds them accountable 

Players like that don't come around every draft. There are undersized coin flip qbs in every draft 

That's the issue. Not how should they allocate resources. Drafting players that change the losing ways of the franchise. Guys that won't bust no matter what 

Wilson, fields these guys have value but they are way more risky than their fans care to admit 

The Jets need to build a program before they draft their savior qb. Do it the other way around is how we ended up with darnold a bust at 23

Its not random. Qbs need infrastructure 

Ah, the memories this triggered. Like the 1980 draft, when the Jets passed on Anthony Munoz because we had Marvin Powell and Chris Ward.

[bitonti]

55 minutes ago, section314 said:

Ah, the memories this triggered. Like the 1980 draft, when the Jets passed on Anthony Munoz because we had Marvin Powell and Chris Ward.

Sewell is an offensive line version of Ray Lewis 

The other players do better out of fear. 

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, bitonti said:

Mitchell Schwartz is available this offseason, fwiw 

Becton is a premium rt who comes from outside the top 10, playing lt out of necessity 

Whoever drafts Sewell will have to play him at left tackle 

Look, before we go to down the position rabbit hole, they are drafting players not positions

Ie an instant pro bowl tackle is better outcome than a qb on IR forever 

If we had to put a percentage on wilson or fields busting it's like 50/50

Guys like Sewell, slater, Pitts, Smith etc are sure things by comparison 

Jets Fans are so thirsty for qb they want to swing wildly 

This is the highest they have picked in decades 

I just don't want the next guy to bust 

Wilson is a human being who has other options. He might just retire after a couple of concussions. He is not blessed with any world class traits 

By comparison, Sewell (whom I'd bet money you never watched play) is not only a world class athlete but the type of player who grabs the other linemen by the face mask and holds them accountable 

Players like that don't come around every draft. There are undersized coin flip qbs in every draft 

That's the issue. Not how should they allocate resources. Drafting players that change the losing ways of the franchise. Guys that won't bust no matter what 

Wilson, fields these guys have value but they are way more risky than their fans care to admit 

The Jets need to build a program before they draft their savior qb. Do it the other way around is how we ended up with darnold a bust at 23

Its not random. Qbs need infrastructure 

Actually no, they're also largely drafting positions. I don't care how great he is - the best of all time, if you will - in 2021 (or any year close to it) no one's drafting a fullback with the #1 overall pick. 

Part of the reason is they are playing a numbers game: some positions get overdrafted, leaving better players at other positions to fall. That's why you can get an elite FB prospect in the middle or later rounds, but an elite prospect at other positions requires a very high pick. 

At this point, at least, I disagree on Becton being just a RT. I think you're basing that purely on two things:

One, that he's not yet a finished product and you presume that his covid-limited rookie season is his ceiling;

Two, because of his size.

Actually three things because it's you: he wasn't drafted early enough at #11 - in a draft with 4 tackles with grades high enough to get taken top 10 - and you have this preconceived notion, despite a Becton-sized mountain of evidence to the contrary, that a tackle drafted outside the top 10 isn't good enough to be a left tackle, and won't be unless a team is just oh-so desperate. 

QBs need infrastructure, fine. They don't need two tackles taken at #2 and #11. That's a baseless and ridiculous premise. Darnold is a bust because he sucks, not because his tackles were Becton & Fant. You can't seriously believe that.

[bitonti]

17 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Actually no, they're also largely drafting positions. I don't care how great he is - the best of all time, if you will - in 2021 (or any year close to it) no one's drafting a fullback with the #1 overall pick. 

Part of the reason is they are playing a numbers game: some positions get overdrafted, leaving better players at other positions to fall. That's why you can get an elite FB prospect in the middle or later rounds, but an elite prospect at other positions requires a very high pick. 

At this point, at least, I disagree on Becton being just a RT. I think you're basing that purely on two things:

One, that he's not yet a finished product and you presume that his covid-limited rookie season is his ceiling;

Two, because of his size.

Actually three things because it's you: he wasn't drafted early enough at #11 - in a draft with 4 tackles with grades high enough to get taken top 10 - and you have this preconceived notion, despite a Becton-sized mountain of evidence to the contrary, that a tackle drafted outside the top 10 isn't good enough to be a left tackle, and won't be unless a team is just oh-so desperate. 

QBs need infrastructure, fine. They don't need two tackles taken at #2 and #11. That's a baseless and ridiculous premise. Darnold is a bust because he sucks, not because his tackles were Becton & Fant. You can't seriously believe that.

No they are not drafting a fullback at 2 overall or a place kicker but passing on a sure thing for a 50/50 QB is bird in the hand vs 2 in the bush thinking

 

As we get closer to the draft i suspect the Jets will not draft at 2. They will trade down and take one of the 5 or 6 dudes that are sure things,  maybe even trade down and take Fields. I'm not locked in on "Sewell at 2" especially if the actual value is "Sewell at 8" 

JD is all about value. 

If they can't trade down that's where these decisions get really interesting (and painful)  

As for Becton I am not saying he's JUST an RT. I'm saying he can be All Pro at RT. He's playing LT because he's the team's best player on offense, and there's no real contender for 2nd best 

I am aware moving this player creates potential issues which is why i'm fine with Slater or Pitts or Devonta Smith or any other sure fire blue chip.  A player that the other defense has to account for in game planning is who I want at 2. 

taking Zach Wilson or Justin Fields at 2, the rest of the offense is so garbage, that's doing opposing defenses a favor. Teams will (again) circle the date and try to break the INT record. Especially the Patriots 

Build a program, then take the QB 

to do it backwards is to waste the QB. Because we both know these guys won't get that Mahomes sit out a year treatment. They will be tossed to the wolves. 

Becton is one dude he can't pass block all 5 positions by himself 

and that Thuney/linsley/Arob train everyone was predicting never really arrived, did it? 

 

[Sperm Edwards]

3 minutes ago, bitonti said:

No they are not drafting a fullback at 2 overall or a place kicker but passing on a sure thing for a 50/50 QB is bird in the hand vs 2 in the bush thinking

 

As we get closer to the draft i suspect the Jets will not draft at 2. They will trade down and take one of the 5 or 6 dudes that are sure things,  maybe even trade down and take Fields. I'm not locked in on "Sewell at 2" especially if the actual value is "Sewell at 8" 

JD is all about value. 

If they can't trade down that's where these decisions get really interesting (and painful)  

As for Becton I am not saying he's JUST an RT. I'm saying he can be All Pro at RT. He's playing LT because he's the team's best player on offense, and there's no real contender for 2nd best 

I am aware moving this player creates potential issues which is why i'm fine with Slater or Pitts or Devonta Smith or any other sure fire blue chip.  A player that the other defense has to account for in game planning is who I want at 2. 

taking Zach Wilson or Justin Fields at 2, the rest of the offense is so garbage, that's doing opposing defenses a favor. Teams will (again) circle the date and try to break the INT record. Especially the Patriots 

Build a program, then take the QB 

to do it backwards is to waste the QB. Because we both know these guys won't get that Mahomes sit out a year treatement. They will be tossed to the wolves. 

Becton is one dude he can't pass block all 5 positions by himself 

and that Thuney/linsley/Arob train you were predicting never really arrived did it 

 

Well it's a difference of philosophy. The team can have the best offensive line in the game, and if their QB isn't up to par they can carry him only so far e.g. Mark Sanchez whom you deemed the alpha male iirc, and probably had additional faith in him purely based on his draft slot. 

Sewell at 8 is totally different than Sewell at 2 because the team would pick up 2-3 extra players in the process. Sewell at 2 is terrible team building, considering how many starters are needed, including QB. Trading down that far to take him is not almost the same thing.

It's that taking him up at #2 is taking him instead of upwards of 3 other 1st round picks. Even if none become as accomplished as Sewell, the greater good is still served by 3 excellent starters over one great one and 2 holes/stopgaps.

You also take positions like that make it seem that anyone who isn't an elite player - excuse me, an elite draft pick - is nothing but a useless placeholder. Except at QB for some reason, where apparently we can still trot out Darnold as though a tackle upgrade makes a bad QB into a good QB, rather than merely masking the real problem. 

How many elite offensive linemen were on KC this year? Not talking about the SB when they were down to two backup tackles against a formidable pass rush. I mean all year long up to and through the championship game. 

Other than Fisher, their OL was:

• Nick Allegretti = 7th round pick in 2019
• Austin Reiter = late 7th round pick in 2015, picked up off waivers after getting cut
• Andrew Wylie = undrafted out of East Michigan, been starting since then
• Mike Remmers = undrafted journeyman on his 8th team in 9 seasons

Mahomes was sacked 22 times this season, and once in the first 2 rounds of the playoffs until Fisher went down.

If Darnold had that OL I've little doubt this line of an 8-year veteran LT and 4 nobodies would be seen as being a major reason why he justifiably looks pretty terrible.

[JoJoTownsell1]

On 3/21/2021 at 12:06 AM, jetstream23 said:

Not sure how PFN's mock draft simulator let me get away with highway robbery but trade down scenarios are a TON of fun and sometimes guys (unrealistically) fall to you...

Nice. Did you set the Default GM for every other team as Gettleman?

[Bruce Harper]

3 hours ago, bitonti said:

Mitchell Schwartz is available this offseason, fwiw 

Becton is a premium rt who comes from outside the top 10, playing lt out of necessity 

Whoever drafts Sewell will have to play him at left tackle 

Look, before we go to down the position rabbit hole, they are drafting players not positions

Ie an instant pro bowl tackle is better outcome than a qb on IR forever 

If we had to put a percentage on wilson or fields busting it's like 50/50

Guys like Sewell, slater, Pitts, Smith etc are sure things by comparison 

Jets Fans are so thirsty for qb they want to swing wildly 

This is the highest they have picked in decades 

I just don't want the next guy to bust 

Wilson is a human being who has other options. He might just retire after a couple of concussions. He is not blessed with any world class traits 

By comparison, Sewell (whom I'd bet money you never watched play) is not only a world class athlete but the type of player who grabs the other linemen by the face mask and holds them accountable 

Players like that don't come around every draft. There are undersized coin flip qbs in every draft 

That's the issue. Not how should they allocate resources. Drafting players that change the losing ways of the franchise. Guys that won't bust no matter what 

Wilson, fields these guys have value but they are way more risky than their fans care to admit 

The Jets need to build a program before they draft their savior qb. Do it the other way around is how we ended up with darnold a bust at 23

Its not random. Qbs need infrastructure 

Sometimes I think you took one look at this guy's skinny face and stupid-looking headband and decided. "this is one guy I can NEVER get behind."   I say this because you consistently say things that are quite obviously contradictory to his tape, like that he does not have "traits."  Even most of the people who don't like him admit that he has excellent accuracy, arm strength, anticipation and ball protection skills.

And as to your concerns about his shoulder, how do you think the Dolphins feel about their decision to let Brees go to the Saints because they were worried that his shoulder wouldn't hold up?  They lost out on an all-pro for fifteen years and have not had a good starting QB since. 

You can't live in fear. You have to keep drafting QBs until you finally get your franchise QB.  So if you stick with Darnold (who we have seen play for three years) we'll likely be picking around 12th next year in a draft with a much weaker QB class.  We haven't picked 2nd in a long time.  It is not often that you get a crack at one of the top guys without trading up with a boatload of assets.  And everyone (other than you) seems to think this is a very strong QB class.  We have to take advantage of our rare draft position.

Sometimes you have to take a bit of a leap.  And all QBs get injured at some point.  Wilson is not injured now.  Does he have a history of concussions that we don't know about, because you seem to be suggesting that?  It seems to me that it's nothing short of irrational fear to assume he will be "on IR forever."  He missed zero games this year (unlike Darnold).

And your worries about him being too rich or not loving football enough simply don't seem to be supported by anything that we've seen or heard about him.  He loves football.  He was a poor student with a learning disability who has said that football is all that comes naturally to him, he loves it, and he could do it all day.  He drove nine hours to his sessions with his QB coach.  Does that sound like a guy who doesn't like football?  By all accounts he works his ass off and has improved substantially virtually every year.  You think the allure of a possible exciting office job for his uncle is going to cancel that out?

And enough of this stuff that he's tiny or too small.  He's at least 6'2" and has put on weight.  Would I like it if he was 225 lbs?  Yes.  But he's not so small that he can't hold up or see over his line.  There are plenty of successful NFL QBs that have been his size or smaller.

Is he risk free?  Absolutely not.  But I think you have to swing for the fences in this situation with this high a pick.

[bitonti]

17 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Well it's a difference of philosophy. The team can have the best offensive line in the game, and if their QB isn't up to par they can carry him only so far e.g. Mark Sanchez whom you deemed the alpha male iirc, and probably had additional faith in him purely based on his draft slot. 

Sewell at 8 is totally different than Sewell at 2 because the team would pick up 2-3 extra players in the process. Sewell at 2 is terrible team building, considering how many starters are needed, including QB. Trading down that far to take him is not almost the same thing.

It's that taking him up at #2 is taking him instead of upwards of 3 other 1st round picks. Even if none become as accomplished as Sewell, the greater good is still served by 3 excellent starters over one great one and 2 holes/stopgaps.

You also take positions like that make it seem that anyone who isn't an elite player - excuse me, an elite draft pick - is nothing but a useless placeholder. Except at QB for some reason, where apparently we can still trot out Darnold as though a tackle upgrade makes a bad QB into a good QB, rather than merely masking the real problem. 

How many elite offensive linemen were on KC this year? Not talking about the SB when they were down to two backup tackles against a formidable pass rush. I mean all year long up to and through the championship game. 

Other than Fisher, their OL was:

• Nick Allegretti = 7th round pick in 2019
• Austin Reiter = late 7th round pick in 2015, picked up off waivers after getting cut
• Andrew Wylie = undrafted out of East Michigan, been starting since then
• Mike Remmers = undrafted journeyman on his 8th team in 9 seasons

Mahomes was sacked 22 times this season, and once in the first 2 rounds of the playoffs until Fisher went down.

If Darnold had that OL I've little doubt this line of an 8-year veteran LT and 4 nobodies would be seen as being a major reason why he justifiably looks pretty terrible.

for all this talk about positionality, if there was a Myles Garrett in this draft, he'd be everyone's chalk pick because of the Jets dire ER need even with Carl Lawson 

We have to take what the draft offers is what I'm trying to say. Reaching for a QB because "wouldn't it be nice" isn't a sound way to build a team. Yes Sanchez with infrastructure won and Darnold without it lost. That's a Pro OL argument. 

the KC example you just typed out (conveniently forgetting about "jets great" Kelechi Osemele by the way) is a pro-OL argument not an anti-OL argument. They got shredded by TBB DL when they needed line talent the most. They went out and signed Thuney the most expensive lineman possible. 

The Jets QB room is currently 23 year old Sam Darnold, 23 year old James Morgan and you are saying the answer is 21 year old Zach Wilson? 

they don't need to get younger at QB they need to build a program, an identity of Saleh/SFO/TEN running/play action deep type of system. That only works if they have a Trent Williams (highest paid lineman in the league) AND a Mike McGlinchey (top 10 RT baby) 

you are talking to me like I get a vote in how this team is run. None of us do. What we are talking about is how they are going to run it. 

and this idea that JD is going to sit tight at 2 and bravely reach I don't think anyone buys it, league wide

if I wanted Zach Wilson, the trade target is 5 at Cinci because JD doesn't have the stones to make this move this early in his Jets tenure 

[bitonti]

10 minutes ago, Bruce Harper said:

Sometimes I think you took one look at this guy's skinny face and stupid-looking headband and decided. "this is one guy I can NEVER get behind."   I say this because you consistently say things that are quite obviously contradictory to his tape, like that he does not have "traits."  Even most of the people who don't like him admit that he has excellent accuracy, arm strength, anticipation and ball protection skills.

And as to your concerns about his shoulder, how do you think the Dolphins feel about their decision to let Brees go to the Saints because they were worried that his shoulder wouldn't hold up?  They lost out on an all-pro for fifteen years and have not had a good starting QB since. 

You can't live in fear. You have to keep drafting QBs until you finally get your franchise QB.  So if you stick with Darnold (who we have seen play for three years) we'll likely be picking around 12th next year in a draft with a much weaker QB class.  We haven't picked 2nd in a long time.  It is not often that you get a crack at one of the top guys without trading up with a boatload of assets.  And everyone (other than you) seems to think this is a very strong QB class.  We have to take advantage of our rare draft position.

Sometimes you have to take a bit of a leap.  And all QBs get injured at some point.  Wilson is not injured now.  Does he have a history of concussions that we don't know about, because you seem to be suggesting that?  It seems to me that it's nothing short of irrational fear to assume he will be "on IR forever."  He missed zero games this year (unlike Darnold).

And your worries about him being too rich or not loving football enough simply don't seem to be supported by anything that we've seen or heard about him.  He loves football.  He was a poor student with a learning disability who has said that football is all that comes naturally to him, he loves it, and he could do it all day.  He drove nine hours to his sessions with his QB coach.  Does that sound like a guy who doesn't like football?  By all accounts he works his ass off and has improved substantially virtually every year.  You think the allure of a possible exciting office job for his uncle is going to cancel that out?

And enough of this stuff that he's tiny or too small.  He's at least 6'2" and has put on weight.  Would I like it if he was 225 lbs?  Yes.  But he's not so small that he can't hold up or see over his line.  There are plenty of successful NFL QBs that have been his size or smaller.

Is he risk free?  Absolutely not.  But I think you have to swing for the fences in this situation with this high a pick.

this is a huge amount of explanation 

it's troubling to have to excuse so many red flags with a pick that's the highest the team has had since Kotite era 

let's go through the red flags in order of worrysomness

1) his good film is against garbage teams

2) his bad film is against power 5 teams 

3) his injury history

4) his height/weight

5) his lack of footwork  (contrary to twitter opinion, doing a heel click in mid air is not great fundamentals) 

6) his wealth (having other options)

that's a half dozen red flags dude and it took you 1000 words to (try to) explain all the ways the flags could be overcome

yes he is a decent prospect. yes he has some arm talent 

he's just not 2 overall material. That's the bottom line. take this guy at 23 I totally get it. Aaron Rodgers went 24. Brees went rd 2. These guys don't go top 2

Megatron goes top 2. Suh goes top 2. and a bunch of QB bums like Mariota, Trubisky and Wentz go 2 

 

 

[Bruce Harper]

2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

this is a huge amount of explanation 

it's troubling to have to excuse so many red flags with a pick that's the highest the team has had since Kotite era 

let's go through the red flags in order of worrysomness

1) his good film is against garbage teams

2) his bad film is against power 5 teams 

3) his injury history

4) his height/weight

5) his lack of footwork  (contrary to twitter opinion, doing a heel click in mid air is not great fundamentals) 

6) his wealth (having other options)

that's a half dozen red flags dude and it took you 1000 words to (try to) explain all the ways the flags could be overcome

yes he is a decent prospect. yes he has some arm talent 

he's just not 2 overall material. That's the bottom line. take this guy at 23 I totally get it. Aaron Rodgers went 24. Brees went rd 2. These guys don't go top 2

Megatron goes top 2. Suh goes top 2. and a bunch of QB bums like Mariota, Trubisky and Wentz go 2 

 

 

He's going to go number 2, whether it's the Jets or someone else.  You are in the minority in your thinking, although that does not make you wrong by any means.  Yes, he could bomb out, but I don't think so.