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Tony Pauline: "Word was in league circles, very likely Sam Darnold is out, they're going to trade him & it'll be Zach Wilson."


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I just think it is daft to draft this guy at #2. 

He is a rich dauphin who was born with more money than he will earn as a football player.

He has a weak arm - 49 mph.

He has a history of shoulder injuries.

He played college football in a weak conference against a creampuff schedule.

He played on a team filled with 26 year old men - who took off fours years to do missionary work - while they line up against 21 year old kids.

What on earth justifies taking him with the 2d pick in the NFL draft?  It is like some sort of collective madness.

I realize that many of you want a new QB and that you have had it with Sam.  But this is insane.

At #23 one of the four also ran QBs will be available.  If not, then next season awaits.  But I do not get the hero worship.  And stop with the Mahomes comparisons.  Mahomes was a college football stud who was healthy and projected into the NFL long before he was drafted.  This guy dropped out of the sky.   And do not bomb me with Wilson's senior year production.  Dwayne Haskins threw 50 tds in his last year at Ohio State against a schedule filled with the toughest competition in college football.

That light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train.  This is dumb.

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have no idea what to make of Wilson but moving on from Darnold is a no-brainer, regardless of compensation back.

It would seem JD has mastered the ability to mislead the media. The guy may be a keeper.

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3 hours ago, Mogglez said:

So did Joe Burrow.  Sh*t happens and some guys explode in their final year.  It’s not as uncommon as you think.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to @clayton163v post. I see both sides of the equation. To Claytons point Wilson appeared to come out of nowhere this year, but prior to playing through some injuries in his junior year he was killing it. The hand and shoulder injuries limited him in 2nd half of season. 
There are a lot of strong opinions on Wilson, Fields and Lance. I have no ability to determine who the better pro will be. It all probably comes down the the coaching support (sorry Sam), team talent (sorry Sam)  and system (again, sorry Sam)

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You guys are obsessing over the demand for QBs decreasing but for every signed QB the supply also decreases. There need only be one desperate team to strike a good deal. 
 

If that fu&$s up, JD can always call the Seahawks brass, they seem gullible enough. 

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7 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

Agreed all around.

Personally, I am a fan of Lawrence, Wilson, Fields, and Lance.  I just want there to be reasonable discussion and I felt a lot of that post needed to be addressed, especially the “weak arm” claim.  That’s just being ignorant to facts.  I could sit here until I’m blue in the face and tell you that Josh Allen has a weak arm.  Most, if not all, people would tell you I am completely wrong.  Now I’m not obsessed with Wilson, so I’m going to remain objective, but there was a lot to unpack and dissect in there.

Thank you. 
 

I honestly feel like the dismissal of Fields by so many is unwarranted and it could end up with us in a Watson situation Part II

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2 minutes ago, Charlie Brown said:

Thank you. 
 

I honestly feel like the dismissal of Fields by so many is unwarranted and it could end up with us in a Watson situation Part II

Because fields is a one read guy who needs to be in a very particular type of offense similar to Lamar Jackson to be effective in the nfl

 

And the Watson ballwashers now are convinced Zach Wilson is better than Aaron Rodgers

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Just now, Charlie Brown said:

Thank you. 
 

I honestly feel like the dismissal of Fields by so many is unwarranted and it could end up with us in a Watson situation Part II

I agree.  That being said, I’m a big fan of Wilson as well, and would probably take him over Fields if I were making the pick.  I think all 4 of these aforementioned kids have a good chance to be great.  

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1 minute ago, Philc1 said:

Because fields is a one read guy who needs to be in a very particular type of offense similar to Lamar Jackson to be effective in the nfl

 

And the Watson ballwashers now are convinced Zach Wilson is better than Aaron Rodgers

Hmm I see Fields more like Russell Wilson and unfortunately I think that you are right about the Zack Wilson love. 
 

I believe that I like Wilson more than you, but I too have problems with a guy who had one really good year out of 7 and now that guy is being said to be a can’t miss guy!

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10 minutes ago, Charlie Brown said:

Hmm I see Fields more like Russell Wilson and unfortunately I think that you are right about the Zack Wilson love. 
 

I believe that I like Wilson more than you, but I too have problems with a guy who had one really good year out of 7 and now that guy is being said to be a can’t miss guy!

Fields is a more athletic Jacoby Brissett.  Simms is absolutely right about his mechanics not translating to the pros and he needs guys to be open unless it’s a designed play to his first read — not my words literally two dozen analysts have been saying that in the past couple months

 

I’d take him over Wilson tho.  Wilson’s body isn’t holding up in the NFL

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I just think it is daft to draft this guy at #2.

You are entitled to your opinion. That I will not argue.

And you are entitled to yours.

He is a rich dauphin who was born with more money than he will earn as a football player.

So what if he’s rich?  So were Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, and Andrew Luck when they entered the league.  Trevor Lawrence and Justin Fields have had a private QB coach (the same one actually) since they were both in 8th grade.  A very highly respected one as a matter of fact.  Do you think that comes cheap?  No.  Plenty of these kids come from money before they step foot on an NFL field.  It doesn’t mean much.

I obviously disagree.  Pro football is a violent sport.  He has everything.  Johnny Manziel came from a similar upbringing and gave up fairly quickly when faced with adversity (his father was an oilman).  It might prove to be a non-issue.  But it is not a positive, it is a negative and is strike one.

He has a weak arm - 49 mph.

Both the notion that he has a weak arm and that 49 mph number are, unequivocally, false.  This is, quite literally, the only time or place I’ve seen anyone say that Wilson has a weak arm, and I have never seen a verified speed for any one of his throws.  I even searched the internet to double check and see if I missed something.  Absolutely zero hits.  A word of advice?  Don’t post misleading or fake measurements and stats.  It only hurts your argument even further.  Even the most militant of people who dislike Wilson can admit that he has a very strong arm.  It absolutely pops out on film.

I read it on this site.  Bitonti - as I recall.  If it turns out to be untrue, then my bad.  As for his film, the most influential film I have seen are his throwing pockets from last season posted on this forum.  No pressure of any kind or violence of any kind.  He got to stand in a clean pocket and had all day to throw.  The film is scary and not in a good way.  I will look for it and post it here.  All Jet fans need to watch it.

He has a history of shoulder injuries.

He had torn labrums, not rotator cuff surgery.  A gazillion QBs get these cleaned up in the off-season and, most of the time, you never know about it.  Sanchez played with a torn labrum for half of the 2010 season, he missed zero games, showed no signs of reduced arm strength or abnormal issues, and no one knew about it until after the team was eliminated from the playoffs.  It can hurt, especially after throwing, and can limit your ability to work out, but that’s usually about it, as long as it isn’t severe, which was the case with Wilson.  He discussed this in an interview and said the only reason he elected to get the surgery was because he was tired of it feeling sore after games, due to him taking hits.  Moving on to that, yes, I will agree that he needs to put on weight to absorb bigger hits in the pros, but he did just that, putting on ~11 pounds leading up to his pro day.  This will only get easier for him to do at the NFL level, as he will be put into an elite strength and conditioning program along with a top of the line nutritional program.

I did not delineate what kind of injury he suffered to his throwing shoulder,  Just said it needed surgery.  I now add that he has also had surgery on his thumb.  He has suffered injuries in college.  These are not positives, they are strike two.

He played college football in a weak conference against a creampuff schedule.

So did Joe Flacco, Patrick Mahomes, and Josh Allen.  How did bashing them work out for many analysts, draft gurus, and even posters on multiple NFL forums, myself included?  Spoiler alert: I don’t feel so great about my past Patrick Mahomes and Josh Allen takes today (however, I was a fan of Flacco).

He played college football in a weak conference against a creampuff schedule.  Nothing wrong with my post here.  Every word is true.  You think it does not matter or factor in any way in your evaluation.  It factors into mine and it is strike three.

He played on a team filled with 26 year old men - who took off fours years to do missionary work - while they line up against 21 year old kids.

If you think he’s the only QB in history to have older teammates, I have a bridge to sell you.  Also: being older does not automatically make you a better football player.

He played on a team filled with 26 year old men - who took off four years to do missionary work - while they line up against 21 year old kids.  Nothing wrong with my statement there.  It is undeniably true and is a fact of life when you face Brigham Young.  They field an older team.  They do and for the reason I mentioned.  I see you do not factor it into your evaluation of Brigham Young football players.  I do factor it in and it is strike four.

What on earth justifies taking him with the 2d pick in the NFL draft?  It is like some sort of collective madness.

By almost all accounts and reports, he is an extremely intelligent kid with all the physical tools needed to succeed in the NFL.  He also has the production to back it up.  I have no idea why you view that as “collective madness”.

He had one year of decent production.  The other year was pedestrian and received no attention.  I do not doubt that he is a bright kid.

I realize that many of you want a new QB and that you have had it with Sam.  But this is insane.

Not really.  Sam is not, as of today, a starting caliber QB, and we have our pick of the litter, not named Lawrence, to replace him with a kid who can, potentially, be a high level starter in this league.  Over the last 3 years, Sam hasn’t shown enough, on the field, to be relied upon or given an unquestionable vote of confidence.  I don’t understand why you would view drafting a top tier QB prospect as “insane”.

I do remain a proponent of keeping Sam.  Not because I think he is Joe Montana, but because he is a sunk cost and we have far more issues than just QB.  If this was last year and there were two consensus quarterbacks on the board, then I would understand the enthusiasm.  But he is just one of four other quarterbacks who are available.  They are interchangeable as prospects and none of them are worthy of the #2 pick.

At #23 one of the four also ran QBs will be available. 

This is probably going to be wrong.  I would almost bet the farm that all of the top guys are gone by #23.

At #23 one of the four also ran QBs will be available.  I stand by my statement.  We shall see.  I think one will fall.  You do not.  I would also trade back and happily be an opportunistic bargain hunter and let the league decide which of the also ran QBs are worthy selections. If I recall, so would you.

If not, then next season awaits.

Next season’s QB class is not looked at as a very strong class and there is a very good chance we would be forced to give up a king’s haul to be in a position to even draft one of those prospects, unless of course we’re just as bad as last year.  The consensus is that 4 of these guys (Lawrence, Wilson, Fields, and Lance) would be the unquestioned number 1 overall pick next year and, again, we have the opportunity to draft whichever one we want except, presumably, Lawrence.  You don’t look a gift horse in the mouth.  Passing on good prospects in favor of “next year” is a big reason why we’re still searching for a franchise QB (see: the 2017 NFL draft)

If not, then next season awaits.  I stand by my statement.  It is hard to judge things a year in advance but one thing is certain.  We just went through a year where the plague determined a lot of choices in college football.  Many schools cancelled their football season entirely.  Many payers opted out including many top prospects like Penei Sewell.  It is a very hard year to judge prospects.  It is why I would take the sure thing in Penei Sewell or trade back if offered fair compensation.  I also - as is obvious - do not believe that Zach Wilson is worthy of the #2 pick.  If we must pick, then do not get ripped off by choosing a plague year wonder.  Go with the player who was destined for the top of the NFL draft since high school.  Do you doubt that Sewell has been on all radar screens for years?

But I do not get the hero worship.

Again, I don’t know why.  This team and it’s fanbase are starved for a franchise QB.  Fans tend to want their teams to draft a guy that fits that mold, which Wilson does.

But I do not get the hero worship.  I stand by my statement.  The condition of the Jets has NOTHING to do with whether or not Wilson is worthy of the #2 pick.  I do not understand why Jet fans are suddenly convinced this guy is worth it.

And stop with the Mahomes comparisons.  Mahomes was a college football stud who was healthy and projected into the NFL long before he was drafted. 

Completely wrong and total revisionist history.  The Chiefs were absolutely blasted and second guessed by many places for drafting Mahomes so high at the time.  Especially because they gave up a ton to trade up in order to get him, and passed on Watson in the process.  Patrick was incredibly raw and all he really had going for him was his production in a weak conference, his ability to make wild, off platform, throws with his athletic ability and his strong arm.  Sounds pretty familiar to me.  I think Zach compares better to Rodgers (lighting quick release, strong arm, athletic and mobile, can throw on the run, from multiple angles, with ease, highly cerebral, etc.) but that’s just me.  Nonetheless, the Mahomes comparison is, also, very fitting.

Mahomes was a college football stud who was healthy and projected into the NFL long before he was drafted.  I stand by my statement.  I do agree that the Chiefs were criticized for moving up to get him.  However, had you asked pro scouts one year before the draft whether they thought Mahomes would be drafted they would have ALL said yes.  He was on everybody's radar screen.  Perhaps not as a first round pick, but all knew about him.  Mahomes was on radar screens.

This guy dropped out of the sky.  

So did Joe Burrow.  Sh*t happens and some guys explode in their final year.  It’s not as uncommon as you think.

This guy dropped out of the sky. I stand by my statement.  One year ago, Zach Wilson was not on the radar screens of professional scouting.  I too can dig up examples to flail against a nice clean statement.  Zach Wilson dropped out of the sky.  Scouts knew who Joe Barrow was.  They did not rate him as the #1 pick, but he was on their radar screens.

And do not bomb me with Wilson's senior year production.  Dwayne Haskins threw 50 tds in his last year at Ohio State against a schedule filled with the toughest competition in college football.

1.  Wilson was a junior, not a senior.

2.  Haskins, and what he did, is not relevant whatsoever.  Ohio State’s QBs have almost zero responsibility for anything in that system, play with the best talent in the nation, and play against cupcakes like freakin’ Rutgers too.  I could use all of these things to slander Justin Fields, but that would be ignorant.  You scout the player, not the school.

I accept that Wilson is a junior, not a senior.  My bad.  My point was that he is a one-year wonder.  And he is a one-year plague year wonder.  Nor I was slandering anyone.  I wanted to make the point that 33 collge tds is not the penthouse.  And Haskins's final year at Ohio State was the bomb.  And look how he turned out (so far).

That light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train.  This is dumb.

Even more ignorant than your last point.

That light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train.  I stand by my statement.  Like Bill Parcells's liked to say," you are what your record says you are."   We are the second worst team in the NFL. We cannot gamble with the #2 pick.  I would take Sewell or trade back.  I am not totally against Zach Wilson.  But there is a clearly better prospect on the board whose production is not tainted by the plague year which diminished talent in last year's college football season.  I would welcome a new QB at #23 or a trade back from #2 But Zach Wilson has four strikes against him and your post does not diminish that one little bit.  To each his own and we shall see.  You have flown your flag and I have flown mine.  We are Jet fans and wear the green.  That endures.  Prognostications do not.  If we take Zach Wilson, may you be right.  It is not what I would do.  I also would have never traded back last season with Mims on the board.  So I am not infallible. 

 

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9 minutes ago, clayton163v said:

I just think it is daft to draft this guy at #2.

You are entitled to your opinion. That I will not argue.

And you are entitled to yours.

He is a rich dauphin who was born with more money than he will earn as a football player.

So what if he’s rich?  So were Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, and Andrew Luck when they entered the league.  Trevor Lawrence and Justin Fields have had a private QB coach (the same one actually) since they were both in 8th grade.  A very highly respected one as a matter of fact.  Do you think that comes cheap?  No.  Plenty of these kids come from money before they step foot on an NFL field.  It doesn’t mean much.

I obviously disagree.  Pro football is a violent sport.  He has everything.  Johnny Manziel came from a similar upbringing and gave up fairly quickly when faced with adversity (his father was an oilman).  It might prove to be a non-issue.  But it is not a positive, it is a negative and is strike one.

He has a weak arm - 49 mph.

Both the notion that he has a weak arm and that 49 mph number are, unequivocally, false.  This is, quite literally, the only time or place I’ve seen anyone say that Wilson has a weak arm, and I have never seen a verified speed for any one of his throws.  I even searched the internet to double check and see if I missed something.  Absolutely zero hits.  A word of advice?  Don’t post misleading or fake measurements and stats.  It only hurts your argument even further.  Even the most militant of people who dislike Wilson can admit that he has a very strong arm.  It absolutely pops out on film.

I read it on this site.  Bitonti - as I recall.  If it turns out to be untrue, then my bad.  As for his film, the most influential film I have seen are his throwing pockets from last season posted on this forum.  No pressure of any kind or violence of any kind.  He got to stand in a clean pocket and had all day to throw.  The film is scary and not in a good way.  I will look for it and post it here.  All Jet fans need to watch it.

He has a history of shoulder injuries.

He had torn labrums, not rotator cuff surgery.  A gazillion QBs get these cleaned up in the off-season and, most of the time, you never know about it.  Sanchez played with a torn labrum for half of the 2010 season, he missed zero games, showed no signs of reduced arm strength or abnormal issues, and no one knew about it until after the team was eliminated from the playoffs.  It can hurt, especially after throwing, and can limit your ability to work out, but that’s usually about it, as long as it isn’t severe, which was the case with Wilson.  He discussed this in an interview and said the only reason he elected to get the surgery was because he was tired of it feeling sore after games, due to him taking hits.  Moving on to that, yes, I will agree that he needs to put on weight to absorb bigger hits in the pros, but he did just that, putting on ~11 pounds leading up to his pro day.  This will only get easier for him to do at the NFL level, as he will be put into an elite strength and conditioning program along with a top of the line nutritional program.

I did not delineate what kind of injury he suffered to his throwing shoulder,  Just said it needed surgery.  I now add that he has also had surgery on his thumb.  He has suffered injuries in college.  These are not positives, they are strike two.

He played college football in a weak conference against a creampuff schedule.

So did Joe Flacco, Patrick Mahomes, and Josh Allen.  How did bashing them work out for many analysts, draft gurus, and even posters on multiple NFL forums, myself included?  Spoiler alert: I don’t feel so great about my past Patrick Mahomes and Josh Allen takes today (however, I was a fan of Flacco).

He played college football in a weak conference against a creampuff schedule.  Nothing wrong with my post here.  Every word is true.  You think it does not matter or factor in any way in your evaluation.  It factors into mine and it is strike three.

He played on a team filled with 26 year old men - who took off fours years to do missionary work - while they line up against 21 year old kids.

If you think he’s the only QB in history to have older teammates, I have a bridge to sell you.  Also: being older does not automatically make you a better football player.

He played on a team filled with 26 year old men - who took off four years to do missionary work - while they line up against 21 year old kids.  Nothing wrong with my statement there.  It is undeniably true and is a fact of life when you face Brigham Young.  They field an older team.  They do and for the reason I mentioned.  I see you do not factor it into your evaluation of Brigham Young football players.  I do factor it in and it is strike four.

What on earth justifies taking him with the 2d pick in the NFL draft?  It is like some sort of collective madness.

By almost all accounts and reports, he is an extremely intelligent kid with all the physical tools needed to succeed in the NFL.  He also has the production to back it up.  I have no idea why you view that as “collective madness”.

He had one year of decent production.  The other year was pedestrian and received no attention.  I do not doubt that he is a bright kid.

I realize that many of you want a new QB and that you have had it with Sam.  But this is insane.

Not really.  Sam is not, as of today, a starting caliber QB, and we have our pick of the litter, not named Lawrence, to replace him with a kid who can, potentially, be a high level starter in this league.  Over the last 3 years, Sam hasn’t shown enough, on the field, to be relied upon or given an unquestionable vote of confidence.  I don’t understand why you would view drafting a top tier QB prospect as “insane”.

I do remain a proponent of keeping Sam.  Not because I think he is Joe Montana, but because he is a sunk cost and we have far more issues than just QB.  If this was last year and there were two consensus quarterbacks on the board, then I would understand the enthusiasm.  But he is just one of four other quarterbacks who are available.  They are interchangeable as prospects and none of them are worthy of the #2 pick.

At #23 one of the four also ran QBs will be available. 

This is probably going to be wrong.  I would almost bet the farm that all of the top guys are gone by #23.

At #23 one of the four also ran QBs will be available.  I stand by my statement.  We shall see.  I think one will fall.  You do not.  I would also trade back and happily be an opportunistic bargain hunter and let the league decide which of the also ran QBs are worthy selections. If I recall, so would you.

If not, then next season awaits.

Next season’s QB class is not looked at as a very strong class and there is a very good chance we would be forced to give up a king’s haul to be in a position to even draft one of those prospects, unless of course we’re just as bad as last year.  The consensus is that 4 of these guys (Lawrence, Wilson, Fields, and Lance) would be the unquestioned number 1 overall pick next year and, again, we have the opportunity to draft whichever one we want except, presumably, Lawrence.  You don’t look a gift horse in the mouth.  Passing on good prospects in favor of “next year” is a big reason why we’re still searching for a franchise QB (see: the 2017 NFL draft)

If not, then next season awaits.  I stand by my statement.  It is hard to judge things a year in advance but one thing is certain.  We just went through a year where the plague determined a lot of choices in college football.  Many schools cancelled their football season entirely.  Many payers opted out including many top prospects like Penei Sewell.  It is a very hard year to judge prospects.  It is why I would take the sure thing in Penei Sewell or trade back if offered fair compensation.  I also - as is obvious - do not believe that Zach Wilson is worthy of the #2 pick.  If we must pick, then do not get ripped off by choosing a plague year wonder.  Go with the player who was destined for the top of the NFL draft since high school.  Do you doubt that Sewell has been on all radar screens for years?

But I do not get the hero worship.

Again, I don’t know why.  This team and it’s fanbase are starved for a franchise QB.  Fans tend to want their teams to draft a guy that fits that mold, which Wilson does.

But I do not get the hero worship.  I stand by my statement.  The condition of the Jets has NOTHING to do with whether or not Wilson is worthy of the #2 pick.  I do not understand why Jet fans are suddenly convinced this guy is worth it.

And stop with the Mahomes comparisons.  Mahomes was a college football stud who was healthy and projected into the NFL long before he was drafted. 

Completely wrong and total revisionist history.  The Chiefs were absolutely blasted and second guessed by many places for drafting Mahomes so high at the time.  Especially because they gave up a ton to trade up in order to get him, and passed on Watson in the process.  Patrick was incredibly raw and all he really had going for him was his production in a weak conference, his ability to make wild, off platform, throws with his athletic ability and his strong arm.  Sounds pretty familiar to me.  I think Zach compares better to Rodgers (lighting quick release, strong arm, athletic and mobile, can throw on the run, from multiple angles, with ease, highly cerebral, etc.) but that’s just me.  Nonetheless, the Mahomes comparison is, also, very fitting.

Mahomes was a college football stud who was healthy and projected into the NFL long before he was drafted.  I stand by my statement.  I do agree that the Chiefs were criticized for moving up to get him.  However, had you asked pro scouts one year before the draft whether they thought Mahomes would be drafted they would have ALL said yes.  He was on everybody's radar screen.  Perhaps not as a first round pick, but all knew about him.  Mahomes was on radar screens.

This guy dropped out of the sky.  

So did Joe Burrow.  Sh*t happens and some guys explode in their final year.  It’s not as uncommon as you think.

This guy dropped out of the sky. I stand by my statement.  One year ago, Zach Wilson was not on the radar screens of professional scouting.  I too can dig up examples to flail against a nice clean statement.  Zach Wilson dropped out of the sky.  Scouts knew who Joe Barrow was.  They did not rate him as the #1 pick, but he was on their radar screens.

And do not bomb me with Wilson's senior year production.  Dwayne Haskins threw 50 tds in his last year at Ohio State against a schedule filled with the toughest competition in college football.

1.  Wilson was a junior, not a senior.

2.  Haskins, and what he did, is not relevant whatsoever.  Ohio State’s QBs have almost zero responsibility for anything in that system, play with the best talent in the nation, and play against cupcakes like freakin’ Rutgers too.  I could use all of these things to slander Justin Fields, but that would be ignorant.  You scout the player, not the school.

I accept that Wilson is a junior, not a senior.  My bad.  My point was that he is a one-year wonder.  And he is a one-year plague year wonder.  Nor I was slandering anyone.  I wanted to make the point that 33 collge tds is not the penthouse.  And Haskins's final year at Ohio State was the bomb.  And look how he turned out (so far).

That light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train.  This is dumb.

Even more ignorant than your last point.

That light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train.  I stand by my statement.  Like Bill Parcells's liked to say," you are what your record says you are."   We are the second worst team in the NFL. We cannot gamble with the #2 pick.  I would take Sewell or trade back.  I am not totally against Zach Wilson.  But there is a clearly better prospect on the board whose production is not tainted by the plague year which diminished talent in last year's college football season.  I would welcome a new QB at #23 or a trade back from #2 But Zach Wilson has four strikes against him and your post does not diminish that one little bit.  To each his own and we shall see.  You have flown your flag and I have flown mine.  We are Jet fans and wear the green.  That endures.  Prognostications do not.  If we take Zach Wilson, may you be right.  It is not what I would do.  I also would have never traded back last season with Mims on the board.  So I am not infallible. 

 

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you should perform this on video as a one man show

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1 hour ago, clayton163v said:

I just think it is daft to draft this guy at #2.

You are entitled to your opinion. That I will not argue.

And you are entitled to yours.

He is a rich dauphin who was born with more money than he will earn as a football player.

So what if he’s rich?  So were Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, and Andrew Luck when they entered the league.  Trevor Lawrence and Justin Fields have had a private QB coach (the same one actually) since they were both in 8th grade.  A very highly respected one as a matter of fact.  Do you think that comes cheap?  No.  Plenty of these kids come from money before they step foot on an NFL field.  It doesn’t mean much.

I obviously disagree.  Pro football is a violent sport.  He has everything.  Johnny Manziel came from a similar upbringing and gave up fairly quickly when faced with adversity (his father was an oilman).  It might prove to be a non-issue.  But it is not a positive, it is a negative and is strike one.

He has a weak arm - 49 mph.

Both the notion that he has a weak arm and that 49 mph number are, unequivocally, false.  This is, quite literally, the only time or place I’ve seen anyone say that Wilson has a weak arm, and I have never seen a verified speed for any one of his throws.  I even searched the internet to double check and see if I missed something.  Absolutely zero hits.  A word of advice?  Don’t post misleading or fake measurements and stats.  It only hurts your argument even further.  Even the most militant of people who dislike Wilson can admit that he has a very strong arm.  It absolutely pops out on film.

I read it on this site.  Bitonti - as I recall.  If it turns out to be untrue, then my bad.  As for his film, the most influential film I have seen are his throwing pockets from last season posted on this forum.  No pressure of any kind or violence of any kind.  He got to stand in a clean pocket and had all day to throw.  The film is scary and not in a good way.  I will look for it and post it here.  All Jet fans need to watch it.

He has a history of shoulder injuries.

He had torn labrums, not rotator cuff surgery.  A gazillion QBs get these cleaned up in the off-season and, most of the time, you never know about it.  Sanchez played with a torn labrum for half of the 2010 season, he missed zero games, showed no signs of reduced arm strength or abnormal issues, and no one knew about it until after the team was eliminated from the playoffs.  It can hurt, especially after throwing, and can limit your ability to work out, but that’s usually about it, as long as it isn’t severe, which was the case with Wilson.  He discussed this in an interview and said the only reason he elected to get the surgery was because he was tired of it feeling sore after games, due to him taking hits.  Moving on to that, yes, I will agree that he needs to put on weight to absorb bigger hits in the pros, but he did just that, putting on ~11 pounds leading up to his pro day.  This will only get easier for him to do at the NFL level, as he will be put into an elite strength and conditioning program along with a top of the line nutritional program.

I did not delineate what kind of injury he suffered to his throwing shoulder,  Just said it needed surgery.  I now add that he has also had surgery on his thumb.  He has suffered injuries in college.  These are not positives, they are strike two.

He played college football in a weak conference against a creampuff schedule.

So did Joe Flacco, Patrick Mahomes, and Josh Allen.  How did bashing them work out for many analysts, draft gurus, and even posters on multiple NFL forums, myself included?  Spoiler alert: I don’t feel so great about my past Patrick Mahomes and Josh Allen takes today (however, I was a fan of Flacco).

He played college football in a weak conference against a creampuff schedule.  Nothing wrong with my post here.  Every word is true.  You think it does not matter or factor in any way in your evaluation.  It factors into mine and it is strike three.

He played on a team filled with 26 year old men - who took off fours years to do missionary work - while they line up against 21 year old kids.

If you think he’s the only QB in history to have older teammates, I have a bridge to sell you.  Also: being older does not automatically make you a better football player.

He played on a team filled with 26 year old men - who took off four years to do missionary work - while they line up against 21 year old kids.  Nothing wrong with my statement there.  It is undeniably true and is a fact of life when you face Brigham Young.  They field an older team.  They do and for the reason I mentioned.  I see you do not factor it into your evaluation of Brigham Young football players.  I do factor it in and it is strike four.

What on earth justifies taking him with the 2d pick in the NFL draft?  It is like some sort of collective madness.

By almost all accounts and reports, he is an extremely intelligent kid with all the physical tools needed to succeed in the NFL.  He also has the production to back it up.  I have no idea why you view that as “collective madness”.

He had one year of decent production.  The other year was pedestrian and received no attention.  I do not doubt that he is a bright kid.

I realize that many of you want a new QB and that you have had it with Sam.  But this is insane.

Not really.  Sam is not, as of today, a starting caliber QB, and we have our pick of the litter, not named Lawrence, to replace him with a kid who can, potentially, be a high level starter in this league.  Over the last 3 years, Sam hasn’t shown enough, on the field, to be relied upon or given an unquestionable vote of confidence.  I don’t understand why you would view drafting a top tier QB prospect as “insane”.

I do remain a proponent of keeping Sam.  Not because I think he is Joe Montana, but because he is a sunk cost and we have far more issues than just QB.  If this was last year and there were two consensus quarterbacks on the board, then I would understand the enthusiasm.  But he is just one of four other quarterbacks who are available.  They are interchangeable as prospects and none of them are worthy of the #2 pick.

At #23 one of the four also ran QBs will be available. 

This is probably going to be wrong.  I would almost bet the farm that all of the top guys are gone by #23.

At #23 one of the four also ran QBs will be available.  I stand by my statement.  We shall see.  I think one will fall.  You do not.  I would also trade back and happily be an opportunistic bargain hunter and let the league decide which of the also ran QBs are worthy selections. If I recall, so would you.

If not, then next season awaits.

Next season’s QB class is not looked at as a very strong class and there is a very good chance we would be forced to give up a king’s haul to be in a position to even draft one of those prospects, unless of course we’re just as bad as last year.  The consensus is that 4 of these guys (Lawrence, Wilson, Fields, and Lance) would be the unquestioned number 1 overall pick next year and, again, we have the opportunity to draft whichever one we want except, presumably, Lawrence.  You don’t look a gift horse in the mouth.  Passing on good prospects in favor of “next year” is a big reason why we’re still searching for a franchise QB (see: the 2017 NFL draft)

If not, then next season awaits.  I stand by my statement.  It is hard to judge things a year in advance but one thing is certain.  We just went through a year where the plague determined a lot of choices in college football.  Many schools cancelled their football season entirely.  Many payers opted out including many top prospects like Penei Sewell.  It is a very hard year to judge prospects.  It is why I would take the sure thing in Penei Sewell or trade back if offered fair compensation.  I also - as is obvious - do not believe that Zach Wilson is worthy of the #2 pick.  If we must pick, then do not get ripped off by choosing a plague year wonder.  Go with the player who was destined for the top of the NFL draft since high school.  Do you doubt that Sewell has been on all radar screens for years?

But I do not get the hero worship.

Again, I don’t know why.  This team and it’s fanbase are starved for a franchise QB.  Fans tend to want their teams to draft a guy that fits that mold, which Wilson does.

But I do not get the hero worship.  I stand by my statement.  The condition of the Jets has NOTHING to do with whether or not Wilson is worthy of the #2 pick.  I do not understand why Jet fans are suddenly convinced this guy is worth it.

And stop with the Mahomes comparisons.  Mahomes was a college football stud who was healthy and projected into the NFL long before he was drafted. 

Completely wrong and total revisionist history.  The Chiefs were absolutely blasted and second guessed by many places for drafting Mahomes so high at the time.  Especially because they gave up a ton to trade up in order to get him, and passed on Watson in the process.  Patrick was incredibly raw and all he really had going for him was his production in a weak conference, his ability to make wild, off platform, throws with his athletic ability and his strong arm.  Sounds pretty familiar to me.  I think Zach compares better to Rodgers (lighting quick release, strong arm, athletic and mobile, can throw on the run, from multiple angles, with ease, highly cerebral, etc.) but that’s just me.  Nonetheless, the Mahomes comparison is, also, very fitting.

Mahomes was a college football stud who was healthy and projected into the NFL long before he was drafted.  I stand by my statement.  I do agree that the Chiefs were criticized for moving up to get him.  However, had you asked pro scouts one year before the draft whether they thought Mahomes would be drafted they would have ALL said yes.  He was on everybody's radar screen.  Perhaps not as a first round pick, but all knew about him.  Mahomes was on radar screens.

This guy dropped out of the sky.  

So did Joe Burrow.  Sh*t happens and some guys explode in their final year.  It’s not as uncommon as you think.

This guy dropped out of the sky. I stand by my statement.  One year ago, Zach Wilson was not on the radar screens of professional scouting.  I too can dig up examples to flail against a nice clean statement.  Zach Wilson dropped out of the sky.  Scouts knew who Joe Barrow was.  They did not rate him as the #1 pick, but he was on their radar screens.

And do not bomb me with Wilson's senior year production.  Dwayne Haskins threw 50 tds in his last year at Ohio State against a schedule filled with the toughest competition in college football.

1.  Wilson was a junior, not a senior.

2.  Haskins, and what he did, is not relevant whatsoever.  Ohio State’s QBs have almost zero responsibility for anything in that system, play with the best talent in the nation, and play against cupcakes like freakin’ Rutgers too.  I could use all of these things to slander Justin Fields, but that would be ignorant.  You scout the player, not the school.

I accept that Wilson is a junior, not a senior.  My bad.  My point was that he is a one-year wonder.  And he is a one-year plague year wonder.  Nor I was slandering anyone.  I wanted to make the point that 33 collge tds is not the penthouse.  And Haskins's final year at Ohio State was the bomb.  And look how he turned out (so far).

That light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train.  This is dumb.

Even more ignorant than your last point.

That light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train.  I stand by my statement.  Like Bill Parcells's liked to say," you are what your record says you are."   We are the second worst team in the NFL. We cannot gamble with the #2 pick.  I would take Sewell or trade back.  I am not totally against Zach Wilson.  But there is a clearly better prospect on the board whose production is not tainted by the plague year which diminished talent in last year's college football season.  I would welcome a new QB at #23 or a trade back from #2 But Zach Wilson has four strikes against him and your post does not diminish that one little bit.  To each his own and we shall see.  You have flown your flag and I have flown mine.  We are Jet fans and wear the green.  That endures.  Prognostications do not.  If we take Zach Wilson, may you be right.  It is not what I would do.  I also would have never traded back last season with Mims on the board.  So I am not infallible. 

 

Responses to this post are underlined.

Appreciate the debate.

”To each his own and we shall see.  You have flown your flag and I have flown mine.  We are Jet fans and wear the green.  That endures.  Prognostications do not.  If we take Zach Wilson, may you be right.  It is not what I would do.  I also would have never traded back last season with Mims on the board.  So I am not infallible.”

I think it’s best that we just agree to disagree on this one and agree with each other on the notion I quoted above this paragraph. We’ll just have to wait and see and, for better or worse, hope for the best.  I definitely respect that you came back to debate each point, but I think, after reading your responses, we just don’t see eye to eye.  Good post nonetheless. 

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14 hours ago, Mogglez said:

Agreed all around.

Personally, I am a fan of Lawrence, Wilson, Fields, and Lance.  I just want there to be reasonable discussion and I felt a lot of that post needed to be addressed, especially the “weak arm” claim.  That’s just being ignorant to facts.  I could sit here until I’m blue in the face and tell you that Josh Allen has a weak arm.  Most, if not all, people would tell you I am completely wrong.  Now I’m not obsessed with Wilson, so I’m going to remain objective, but there was a lot to unpack and dissect in there.

With all due respect Moggles, you did not refute the weak arm claim.  You merely said that it was wrong.  You did not post evidence to the contrary.  I realized that I did not have evidence either - just saw it posted on the board - so I took responsibility and accepted that it could be wrong.  When you can refute it, let me know.

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10 minutes ago, clayton163v said:

With all due respect Moggles, you did not refute the weak arm claim.  You merely said that it was wrong.  You did not post evidence to the contrary.  I realized that I did not have evidence either - just saw it posted on the board - so I took responsibility and accepted that it could be wrong.  When you can refute it, let me know.

None of Lawrence/Wilson/fields/lance have a weak arm.

source: I have eyes 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, clayton163v said:

With all due respect Moggles, you did not refute the weak arm claim.  You merely said that it was wrong.  You did not post evidence to the contrary.  I realized that I did not have evidence either - just saw it posted on the board - so I took responsibility and accepted that it could be wrong.  When you can refute it, let me know.

Google search Zack Wilson arm strength, based on the fact that literally everything comes back with him having a cannon i think its safe to say he doesn’t have a weak arm.

If u knock Zack Wilson i dont think the “one hit wonder” (see Cam Newton, Matt Ryan, Joe Borrow, etc...) or the arm strength arguments are what you want to hang your hat on.

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28 minutes ago, clayton163v said:

With all due respect Moggles, you did not refute the weak arm claim.  You merely said that it was wrong.  You did not post evidence to the contrary.  I realized that I did not have evidence either - just saw it posted on the board - so I took responsibility and accepted that it could be wrong.  When you can refute it, let me know.

No offense taken.  I don’t feel like getting into it with the poster you claimed said it...but he has a very strict agenda against every QB, not just Wilson, because he wants Penei Sewell no matter how ridiculous it would be for us to do that.  Here are some scouting reports on Wilson to provide evidence that backs up what I see on tape as well:

74339D6D-222E-4070-A763-3C4B3A154304.thumb.jpeg.3b635f25812ba32f2b7112fd7a0f31cc.jpeg
 

8CB8DE88-4C6B-4280-8411-10BFE55A2D1C.thumb.jpeg.059c68a95188918740832cd45a58a4e7.jpeg

6DD390E8-92C3-43FB-A186-B9999D589DBA.thumb.jpeg.0a24b6a0e16a9264640e703dd40adbf2.jpeg
 

2C354CDA-0924-4589-AB3A-BB33D3CFCF5F.thumb.jpeg.d7bf6b602c6dffe02bc8fb743bd3f902.jpeg
 

04C9848C-6523-4A5D-8DD9-24BEB90128AE.thumb.jpeg.9f371de6ed16c0b0ae6982aa1420d68c.jpeg

One look at the tape will back all of these reports up.  

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11 minutes ago, k-met57 said:

Google search Zack Wilson arm strength, based on the fact that literally everything comes back with him having a cannon i think its safe to say he doesn’t have a weak arm.

If u knock Zack Wilson i dont think the “one hit wonder” (see Cam Newton, Matt Ryan, Joe Borrow, etc...) or the arm strength arguments are what you want to hang your hat on.

I did not say he lacks ability.  I just maintain he is not worth the #2 pick.  Nor do I believe that there is a dimes bit of difference between Lance, Fields, Jones and Wilson. 

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47 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

Appreciate the debate.

”To each his own and we shall see.  You have flown your flag and I have flown mine.  We are Jet fans and wear the green.  That endures.  Prognostications do not.  If we take Zach Wilson, may you be right.  It is not what I would do.  I also would have never traded back last season with Mims on the board.  So I am not infallible.”

I think it’s best that we just agree to disagree on this one and agree with each other on the notion I quoted above this paragraph. We’ll just have to wait and see and, for better or worse, hope for the best.  I definitely respect that you came back to debate each point, but I think, after reading your responses, we just don’t see eye to eye.  Good post nonetheless. 

Fair enough.  I too hope for the best.

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2 minutes ago, clayton163v said:

I did not say he lacks ability.  I just maintain he is not worth the #2 pick.  Nor do I believe that there is a dimes bit of difference between Lance, Fields, Jones and Wilson. 

Except for they are all completely different even as players. Meaning they are probably better or worse fits for specific offenses run by NFL teams. That entire big list of arguments you wrote, i dont think there is 1 there thats factual. Sorry.

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20 hours ago, clayton163v said:

I just think it is daft to draft this guy at #2. 

He is a rich dauphin who was born with more money than he will earn as a football player.

He has a weak arm - 49 mph.

He has a history of shoulder injuries.

He played college football in a weak conference against a creampuff schedule.

He played on a team filled with 26 year old men - who took off fours years to do missionary work - while they line up against 21 year old kids.

What on earth justifies taking him with the 2d pick in the NFL draft?  It is like some sort of collective madness.

I realize that many of you want a new QB and that you have had it with Sam.  But this is insane.

At #23 one of the four also ran QBs will be available.  If not, then next season awaits.  But I do not get the hero worship.  And stop with the Mahomes comparisons.  Mahomes was a college football stud who was healthy and projected into the NFL long before he was drafted.  This guy dropped out of the sky.   And do not bomb me with Wilson's senior year production.  Dwayne Haskins threw 50 tds in his last year at Ohio State against a schedule filled with the toughest competition in college football.

That light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train.  This is dumb.

Well this post is aging well.  lol.  I guess it is tough taking on the tribe of Zach Wilson.  So be it.  Penei Sewell is a safer and better choice.  Trading back is best for the Jets. 

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1 minute ago, k-met57 said:

Except for they are all completely different even as players. Meaning they are probably better or worse fits for specific offenses run by NFL teams. That entire big list of arguments you wrote, i dont think there is 1 there thats factual. Sorry.

He played in a weak conference.  He plays on a team filled with 26 year old men.  He has had two injuries that required surgery.   His family is rich as Croesus.  He has had one good year.  He dropped out of the sky and was not on the radar screens of pro scouts on January 1, 2020.

All of this is factual.  You may not like it.  You may want him at #2 anyway.  But it is all factual. 

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22 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

No offense taken.  I don’t feel like getting into it with the poster you claimed said it...but he has a very strict agenda against every QB, not just Wilson, because he wants Penei Sewell no matter how ridiculous it would be for us to do that.  Here are some scouting reports on Wilson to provide evidence that backs up what I see on tape as well:

74339D6D-222E-4070-A763-3C4B3A154304.thumb.jpeg.3b635f25812ba32f2b7112fd7a0f31cc.jpeg
 

8CB8DE88-4C6B-4280-8411-10BFE55A2D1C.thumb.jpeg.059c68a95188918740832cd45a58a4e7.jpeg

6DD390E8-92C3-43FB-A186-B9999D589DBA.thumb.jpeg.0a24b6a0e16a9264640e703dd40adbf2.jpeg
 

2C354CDA-0924-4589-AB3A-BB33D3CFCF5F.thumb.jpeg.d7bf6b602c6dffe02bc8fb743bd3f902.jpeg
 

04C9848C-6523-4A5D-8DD9-24BEB90128AE.thumb.jpeg.9f371de6ed16c0b0ae6982aa1420d68c.jpeg

One look at the tape will back all of these reports up.  

Thanks for the info. 

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Zachs uncle is rich, his parents don’t seem like they are loaded. According to Peter King Zach was a door dash driver before this past season for gas money and expenses. He drove Mazda 6

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1 hour ago, clayton163v said:

With all due respect Moggles, you did not refute the weak arm claim.  You merely said that it was wrong.  You did not post evidence to the contrary.  I realized that I did not have evidence either - just saw it posted on the board - so I took responsibility and accepted that it could be wrong.  When you can refute it, let me know.

Your arguments are terrible and you're entitled to make them. But "I stand by it" doesn't really mean squat to anyone but you. You may ultimately be proven right but here's what I know. This team will continue to stink without a qb. When you're in a position to draft a top prospect at QB, you do it until you find one because you never know the next time you'll be in that position. 

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10 hours ago, clayton163v said:

He played in a weak conference.  He plays on a team filled with 26 year old men.  He has had two injuries that required surgery.   His family is rich as Croesus.  He has had one good year.  He dropped out of the sky and was not on the radar screens of pro scouts on January 1, 2020.

All of this is factual.  You may not like it.  You may want him at #2 anyway.  But it is all factual. 

do you have the average age of all the players?  Not trying to be a contrarian and perhaps you have all the numbers in front of you and I am 100% wrong,  but the fact that this is all factual and I cannot find a single statistic on player age for the BYU program makes me think 26 is overstating it.  Rough math I can kind of figure out in my head is that the missionary is 2 years (if a player opts to take one) and eligibility is 4 years so that would equal 6 max if they were seniors who took a missionary .  So if students came to college at 18 (the average age) that would put them at 24, if all the players on the team indeed did go on a missionary and were 4 years starters.  

but for instance zach was only 21.  For reference, in 2017, the average age of players on the football team was 21.7 so while i do not doubt that there are some players definitely 24 or even one or two of 25, there are just as many freshman and sophomore playing at 19-21.  

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On 3/25/2021 at 12:03 PM, Big_Slick said:

Tony Pauline doesn't know crap. The word in 'league circles' is laughable. The only guy who knows if Sam will be traded is JD and possibly Salah and they're not leaking any information.

If you want to make an educated guess about Sam's future figure in the fact that has not been traded by now. That's the biggest indication that he'll be the Jets QB for 2021.

These talking heads and internet twits have zero real sources and are just looking for clicks and viewers during the next month.

Their speculation should be focused on the trade package a team will give to move up to the #2 OA pick.

you probably should change your user name from Big_Slick to Big_Dick  

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On 3/29/2021 at 9:37 AM, Chrebetfan80 said:

do you have the average age of all the players?  Not trying to be a contrarian and perhaps you have all the numbers in front of you and I am 100% wrong,  but the fact that this is all factual and I cannot find a single statistic on player age for the BYU program makes me think 26 is overstating it.  Rough math I can kind of figure out in my head is that the missionary is 2 years (if a player opts to take one) and eligibility is 4 years so that would equal 6 max if they were seniors who took a missionary .  So if students came to college at 18 (the average age) that would put them at 24, if all the players on the team indeed did go on a missionary and were 4 years starters.  

but for instance zach was only 21.  For reference, in 2017, the average age of players on the football team was 21.7 so while i do not doubt that there are some players definitely 24 or even one or two of 25, there are just as many freshman and sophomore playing at 19-21.  

Almost none of what he wrote is true.

The majority of his team were normal age.  There are a small handful of older players.  Their age doesn't really matter anyway.  It's about skill-set.  

They ended this year ranked 11th in the country - he carried a program

He didn't drop out of the sky, he was on everyone's radar after his freshman year.

He missed 3 games total over 3 years as a starter.  The injury thing is way overblown.  All these guys get banged up.

The shoulder surgery he had is pretty standard - Trevor Lawrence just got the same thing.

 

 

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On 3/28/2021 at 10:31 PM, Cbucco19 said:

@Mogglez @football guy 🤫🤫🤫 a Reliable 49ers guy with sources told me Zach already has bought a house in this area .. He knows people at BYU 

Which area is “this area”? NJ/NYC or Bay Area... sorry you were a little unclear

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