2021 NFL Draft Mega-thread: News, Rumors, and Discussion

[derp]

14 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Let's simply look at what SF gave to get to 3.

1. Do you honestly think they gave all of that up to get to 3 but didn't make that offer to the guys sitting at 2?
2. And if you don't think they did, you should ask yourself why they didn't....

Well I'll give you the answers..

1. They did make the offer and the Jets said no - it would be almost criminal negligence to not even throw it out there
2. But if they didn't make the offer the only reason they wouldn't is because they know the Jets weren't listening.

Eagles were noted as saying if they couldn't get to 2 then they weren't interested in trading up.  They did, in fact, try to get to 2 - Jets didn't bit.

I’m sure there are conversations that happen, but you’re making it sound like it’s widely reported that all kinds of teams tried to trade up to #2 and none of the reports say that. Your 49ers thing is complete speculation, not anyone’s account of what happened, and you have the Eagles report wrong.

And it’s not like two teams of speculating is beating down the door. I know it fits your narrative and again I’m sure conversations happen but in both of these cases there are no accounts the teams tried to trade up to #2 that I can find.

What the 49ers gave up to get to the third pick wasn’t enough to get to pick #2. When asked they basically said they worked from pick 5 or 6 to pick 3 and landed at 3. I agree they probably called to see if they could offer a little more, but there’s no account of it. And it honestly would’ve been hard for them to put together a big enough package to get to #2 with the QB premium.

The Eagles were noted as saying they thought Wilson was a strong prospect but they thought trading down was a better way to build a team. That was the clarification of the initial report that got walked back that they were interested in trading up to #3, not #2, but only for Wilson. They may have called, but again, no account, so the use of “in fact” there is something. And given why they decided not to move up to #3 they may have known the cost to get to #2 would be too high without even calling. Certainly would’ve cost them at least one future first round pick and it doesn’t seem ridiculous they’d be unwilling to do that.

[jetstream23]

1 hour ago, sec101row23 said:

I think Edge or LB is a possibility at 23.  I know people will hate it but, I wouldn’t be shocked to see Jamin Davis or Zaven Collins selected at 23.   

This.  I’ve been on the idea of a LEO, Edge, OLB type early in this Draft for a while now.  Either at 23 or 34.  Would LOVE Zaven Collins at 34 but I don’t think he makes it that far.  And despite my hunger for this guy I do think 23 is too early.  But 23 isn’t too early for one of the elite Edge guys (if Kwity Paye drops), or maybe even an Azeez Ojulari although I’m not sure he’s the prototype size to play Salem’s LEO.

[BornJetsFan1983]

9 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I continue to be proven correct.  I have clear, logical view points - they don't require a lot fluff as they're quite straight forward.

In this case:

If JD takes defense at either 23 or 34 he will be a failure.  I have little doubt about that.

He could go edge and then CB and have a great draft here. He would give us a great pass rush and fix one of our biggest needs CB...then get lineman and other during the draft all while adding a qb in the first. It would need seen for what it is a success

[BornJetsFan1983]

6 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

This.  I’ve been on the idea of a LEO, Edge, OLB type early in this Draft for a while now.  Either at 23 or 34.  Would LOVE Zaven Collins at 34 but I don’t think he makes it that far.  And despite my hunger for this guy I do think 23 is too early.  But 23 isn’t too early for one of the elite Edge guys (if Kwity Paye drops), or maybe even an Azeez Ojulari although I’m not sure he’s the prototype size to play Salem’s LEO.

If they give us 10 plus sack a year it would be a perfect pick

[jetstream23]

28 minutes ago, Lith said:

Not sure there is a spot in R1 or R2 where I would be cofmortable rolling the dice on this guy.

 

This team can’t afford a gamble like that any earlier than #66 IMO.  It’s a true roll of the dice.  Wish the kid well, uber talented. 

[FidelioJet]

1 minute ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

He could go edge and then CB and have a great draft here. He would give us a great pass rush and fix one of our biggest needs CB...then get lineman and other during the draft all while adding a qb in the first. It would need seen for what it is a success

We literally had the worst offense in the league and one of the worst in the history of the NFL.  As of right now we've upgraded with a #2 WR.  Our QB didn't have a chance.

Not seeing or understanding how important the QB position is, just tells me the fans get the team they deserve.

[Beerfish]

32 minutes ago, Lith said:

Not sure there is a spot in R1 or R2 where I would be cofmortable rolling the dice on this guy.

 

He just tested positive for Covid as well and won't be attending the draft.

[Beerfish]

4 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

We literally had the worst offense in the league and one of the worst in the history of the NFL.  As of right now we've upgraded with a #2 WR.  Our QB didn't have a chance.

Not seeing or understanding how important the QB position is, just tells me the fans get the team they deserve.

This is correct. 

 

[jetstream23]

16 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I continue to be proven correct.  I have clear, logical view points - they don't require a lot fluff as they're quite straight forward.

In this case:

If JD takes defense at either 23 or 34 he will be a failure.  I have little doubt about that.

So 8 Offensive linemen and 4 WRs are gone by 23 somehow, yet CB Patrick Surtain fell.  You want JD to take an OL with a 3rd round grade instead of the best defender in the Draft?  Sure, that’s an unrealistic exaggeration but the point is the same.  What if it’s a choice between the 2nd/3rd best defender in the Draft and the 7th OLinemen?

The strategy you’re describing about going O regardless of the cost has already been shown by JD to not be his approach.  He demonstrated it FA despite being desperate for OLine and other positions, he’ won’t overpay (either $$$ of high value Draft picks).

[Integrity28]

19 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I continue to be proven correct.  I have clear, logical view points - they don't require a lot fluff as they're quite straight forward.

In this case:

If JD takes defense at either 23 or 34 he will be a failure.  I have little doubt about that.

Verb tense ftw.

I'll update that prior post from 6th grade to 1st grade reading level.

[Beerfish]

15 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

This.  I’ve been on the idea of a LEO, Edge, OLB type early in this Draft for a while now.  Either at 23 or 34.  Would LOVE Zaven Collins at 34 but I don’t think he makes it that far.  And despite my hunger for this guy I do think 23 is too early.  But 23 isn’t too early for one of the elite Edge guys (if Kwity Paye drops), or maybe even an Azeez Ojulari although I’m not sure he’s the prototype size to play Salem’s LEO.

Jets lose 17-3.

Offense gets blamed for not sustaining drives.

Everyone loves saleh and his top 5 defense.

Jets win 4 games

Blame is heaped on the QB.

Clue in that offense needs to be addressed to go along with our all world defense.

Look for a new QB due to the young guy being shot at 23.

 

 

[Beerfish]

4 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

So 8 Offensive linemen and 4 WRs are gone by 23 somehow, yet CB Patrick Surtain fell.  You want JD to take an OL with a 3rd round grade instead of the best defender in the Draft?  Sure, that’s an unrealistic exaggeration but the point is the same.  What if it’s a choice between the 2nd/3rd best defender in the Draft and the 7th OLinemen?

The strategy you’re describing about going O regardless of the cost has already been shown by JD to not be his approach.  He demonstrated it FA despite being desperate for OLine and other positions, he’ won’t overpay (either $$$ of high value Draft picks).

Trade up or trade down, Douglas you are the great gm.

McCagnan method of team building, oh the best player is a Dt or a safety, don't move, just take him

[FidelioJet]

2 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Verb tense ftw.

I'll update that prior post from 6th grade to 1st grade reading level.

Is that what you're left with?

If correcting grammar on an internet football message board is your thing...I say good for you.

Nice work.

[jetblue95]

21 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I continue to be proven correct.  I have clear, logical view points - they don't require a lot fluff as they're quite straight forward.

In this case:

If JD takes defense at either 23 or 34 he will be a failure.  I have little doubt about that.

 

you have NOT been proven correct.   you continue to assert your opinion and claim it is correct.  saying something over and over does not equal proof.

the chiefs did not build a SB team by drafting only offense after getting mahomes.  the texans did not follow up drafting watson with only offensive draft picks.  the bucs did not just win the super bowl by loading up on offensive draft picks.  

let's do another one.  the bills, after drafting josh allen, made 4 consecutive defensive picks that year.  the following year, they picked a DT with their first pick, and in 2020, their first pick was a DE.

proof would be showing a real world example.  can you do such, where a team follows up taking a QB high in the draft with 3 or 4 consecutive offensive players in the same draft?

 

[jetstream23]

Just now, Beerfish said:

Trade up or trade down, Douglas you are the great gm.

McCagnan method of team building, oh the best player is a Dt or a safety, don't move, just take him

Drafting for need or to try to fill holes almost never works.  Macc reached for Hackenberg in Round 2 who had like a 5th round grade.

Take the best player available in their correct Tier.  For example, maybe the Jets have 6 guys they’d take a 23.  If we get to #23 and 3 of those guys are there then you go to need to break that tie.

I want offense as badly as anyone, but I don’t support going out-of-bounds on the approach to fill a need, especially at #23 (or even #34).  It’s not like we’re looking for a LT either.  We’re trying to upgrade OGs and the RT.  Teams can do that outside of Rounds 1 and 2.  Heck, Parcells drafted Jason Fabini in Round 4 and he played almost a decade at LT.

[FidelioJet]

Just now, jetblue95 said:

 

you have NOT been proven correct.   you continue to assert your opinion and claim it is correct.  saying something over and over does not equal proof.

the chiefs did not build a SB team by drafting only offense after getting mahomes.  the texans did not follow up drafting watson with only offensive draft picks.  the bucs did not just win the super bowl by loading up on offensive draft picks.  

let's do another one.  the bills, after drafting josh allen, made 4 consecutive defensive picks that year.  the following year, they picked a DT with their first pick, and in 2020, their first pick was a DE.

proof would be showing a real world example.  can you do such, where a team follows up taking a QB high in the draft with 3 or 4 consecutive offensive players in the same draft?

 

None of those teams were the worst offense in the league and one that ranked in the top 10 worst of all times.  The Jets literally had the least talented offensive roster I've ever seen...As of right now they've added a #2 WR to that team.  That's it.  The worst OL in the league hasn't been upgraded.  

Again, you have to think outside your little of box of what people told you to think.  Circumstances matter.

It's almost like you didn't watch this team play last year.

[derp]

12 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

We literally had the worst offense in the league and one of the worst in the history of the NFL.  As of right now we've upgraded with a #2 WR.  Our QB didn't have a chance.

Not seeing or understanding how important the QB position is, just tells me the fans get the team they deserve.

The failure to support the QB won’t happen in the draft. It already happened in free agency. I’m not sure why, when they knew they were probably drafting one, the mindset would be different in the draft than it was in FA. And you don’t rely on rookies to support a young QB anyway.

Or they’ll bench him like they should and he’ll have another free agency period and draft to build up the roster.

It’s why some of us don’t think the team is ready for a QB yet. If the team needs to spend the rest of its draft picks on a QB to support him...infrastructure probably isn’t in place yet. You don’t even know if those guys can play at the NFL level until they come in.

[Integrity28]

Just now, FidelioJet said:

Is that what you're left with?

If correcting grammar on an internet football message board is your thing...I say good for you.

Nice work.

Yes. 

Grammar correction that proves that you cannot be proven right about something that hasn't happened.

It's not always easy to illustrate all the ways a person can be a dufus, but at the end of the day, it is nice work. You're right.

[K_O_Brien]

1 minute ago, FidelioJet said:

None of those teams were the worst offense in the league and one that ranked in the top 10 worst of all times.  The Jets literally had the least talented offensive roster I've ever seen...As of right now they've added a #2 WR to that team.  That's it.  The worst OL in the league hasn't been upgraded.  

Again, you have to think outside your little of box of what people told you to think.  Circumstances matter.

It's almost like you didn't watch this team play last year.

With the worst head coach, no offensive co-ordinator and the 32th ranked QB. 

I get the desire to draft offensive talent as much as possible, I share it, but going from Gase/Doggins/Darnold to Saleh/LeFleur/Wilson is a seismic upgrade, regardless of who we pick at 23 and 34.

I think you're under-selling some of the guys we already have on the roster and Corey Davis who we picked upp in free agency. 

[jetblue95]

1 minute ago, FidelioJet said:

None of those teams were the worst offense in the league and one that ranked in the top 10 worst of all times.  The Jets literally had the least talented offensive roster I've ever seen...As of right now they've added a #2 WR to that team.  That's it.  The worst OL in the league hasn't been upgraded.  

Again, you have to think outside your little of box of what people told you to think.  Circumstances matter.

It's almost like you didn't watch this team play last year.

 

again, you are offering your opinion.  that is fine, and i too share a desire to see the offense upgraded.  i think there have been more improvements than you just describe as adding a #2 WR (in addition to adding davis, a healthy, full-year mims, cole is vastly underrated, coleman is a solid RB platoon addition, and most importantly the new shannahan-inspired offensive system instead of gase feeding frank gore the ball 20 times a game offense).  but nevertheless, i want to see the jets help wilson out by improving the line and adding more weapons.

but you cannot claim you have been proven right when you cannot point to any such example as PROOF.  i've given a bunch of examples of winning teams being built around a young QB along with a mix of offensive and defensive picks.  grabbing one of the top CBs or edge rushers  with one of the day 1/2 picks isn't malpractice.  it's not the same as taking a box safety over a QB.  they are premium positions, as well as positions of need for the team.  it may not be my preference, but i certainly would understand going with one of those positions relatively early if that is how the board falls.

[nycdan]

9 minutes ago, jetblue95 said:

 

you have NOT been proven correct.   you continue to assert your opinion and claim it is correct.  saying something over and over does not equal proof.

the chiefs did not build a SB team by drafting only offense after getting mahomes.  the texans did not follow up drafting watson with only offensive draft picks.  the bucs did not just win the super bowl by loading up on offensive draft picks.  

let's do another one.  the bills, after drafting josh allen, made 4 consecutive defensive picks that year.  the following year, they picked a DT with their first pick, and in 2020, their first pick was a DE.

proof would be showing a real world example.  can you do such, where a team follows up taking a QB high in the draft with 3 or 4 consecutive offensive players in the same draft?

 

Even if he could, it would be an anecdote, not a data-driven argument.

Look at TB.  In 2019, their first five draft picks were defense.  In 2018, 3 of their first 4 picks were defense.

KC drafted Mahomes in 2017 and followed him up  with a DE before taking Hunt in the 3rd.  In 2018 they rattled off four straight defensive picks to start the draft.

CLE drafted Mayfield in 2018, followed later that round by Ward, a CB.  In 2019, four straight defensive picks to start the draft.  In 2020, they took an OL followed by three more defensive picks.

Fidelio has a theory.  It doesn't stand up to any empirical test.  But he does have the certainty of the gods so you have to admire that.

[FidelioJet]

10 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Yes. 

Grammar correction that proves that you cannot be proven right about something that hasn't happened.

It's not always easy to illustrate all the ways a person can be a dufus, but at the end of the day, it is nice work. You're right.

All other things aside - I do like the usage of Dufus

Long time since I've heard that one - but I like it!

 

[Greenseed4]

43 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

I like him and Eichenberg but not at 34.  Would hope to trade back and get him in the 40’s depending on what the Jets did at 23.  If the Jets land an AVT or Jenkins then I think they table OL for a while until 86, 107 or even 146.  Guys like Jackson Carman and Robert Hainsey come to mind for later picks.

I like Walker Little at the top of the 3rd to lock up LG. 

[FidelioJet]

7 minutes ago, K_O_Brien said:

With the worst head coach, no offensive co-ordinator and the 32th ranked QB. 

I get the desire to draft offensive talent as much as possible, I share it, but going from Gase/Doggins/Darnold to Saleh/LeFleur/Wilson is a seismic upgrade, regardless of who we pick at 23 and 34.

I think you're under-selling some of the guys we already have on the roster and Corey Davis who we picked upp in free agency. 

That is all such wishful thinking.

If you guys are under the delusion that Gase and Darnold were the major problem and not the talent i think you're going to be a rude awakening come Sept.  Especially if we take defense at 23 and 34.

That offensive roster was absolute garbage - and as it is now - it's that garbage roster plus a WR.

[Lith]

34 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

This team can’t afford a gamble like that any earlier than #66 IMO.  It’s a true roll of the dice.  Wish the kid well, uber talented. 

Not sure I would be willing to take that type of gamble at 66.

[Integrity28]

4 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

All other things aside - I do like the usage of Dufus

Long time since I've heard that one - but I like it!

 

I doubt it's been that long.

[redlichtie]

2 hours ago, sec101row23 said:

Perhaps, but I think both guys go in the first.  The league has trended towards these ultra athletic LBers, Davis is pretty freakish in his profile.  6’3” 240, 4.41 40.   He doesn’t have a ton of experience with games started, but I think a team is going to bite early on his athleticism.  

Agreed, Collins is phenomenal, wouldn’t be shocked to see him go in the top 8-16 picks....I’d probably take him over Micah Parsons who seems to be trending as first defensive player off the board 

[FidelioJet]

7 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Even if he could, it would be an anecdote, not a data-driven argument.

Look at TB.  In 2019, their first five draft picks were defense.  In 2018, 3 of their first 4 picks were defense.

KC drafted Mahomes in 2017 and followed him up  with a DE before taking Hunt in the 3rd.  In 2018 they rattled off four straight defensive picks to start the draft.

CLE drafted Mayfield in 2018, followed later that round by Ward, a CB.  In 2019, four straight defensive picks to start the draft.  In 2020, they took an OL followed by three more defensive picks.

Fidelio has a theory.  It doesn't stand up to any empirical test.  But he does have the certainty of the gods so you have to admire that.

Stop.

Each of those examples had stacked offenses prior to drafting the QB.  

In the case of Tampa they brought in the GOAT - as I've explained when you already have a franchise QB you can do more with less.....and in Tampas case they did wonders in FA with Brady.

The Jets are currently coming off one of the worst offenses in the history of the NFL.  Why is that so hard for so many of you to grasp.

Circumstances matter.

[redlichtie]

2 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

I could easily see someone like collins as the pick, then they grab Humphrey or a RT at 34 and possibly double dip in the 3rd.  That would give 3 impact starters.

People forget that after 15 or so years of running 3-4 we have totally changed our defense and Saleh needs aggressive athletic linemen and ‘backers...we are 100% in the market for a player like Zaven Collins....I hope it happens a) because I think he’s a huge talent and b) because of the meltdown it’ll cause 

[RVAJet815]

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

Stop.

Each of those examples had stacked offenses prior to drafting the QB.  

In the case of Tampa they brought in the GOAT - as I've explained when you already have a franchise QB you can do more with less.....and in Tampas case they did wonders in FA with Brady.

The Jets are currently coming off one of the worst offenses in the history of the NFL.  Why is that so hard for so many of you to grasp.

Circumstances matter.

And Adam Gase was a MAJOR factor for that deficiency. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?  No one disputes the talent gap. They need more of it, full stop. But having Gase and his lackeys the hell away from this team will do wonders for this organization in and of itself. 

[Bay Ridge Jet]

18 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

Drafting for need or to try to fill holes almost never works.  Macc reached for Hackenberg in Round 2 who had like a 5th round grade.

Take the best player available in their correct Tier.  For example, maybe the Jets have 6 guys they’d take a 23.  If we get to #23 and 3 of those guys are there then you go to need to break that tie.

I want offense as badly as anyone, but I don’t support going out-of-bounds on the approach to fill a need, especially at #23 (or even #34).  It’s not like we’re looking for a LT either.  We’re trying to upgrade OGs and the RT.  Teams can do that outside of Rounds 1 and 2.  Heck, Parcells drafted Jason Fabini in Round 4 and he played almost a decade at LT.

I agree about drafting the top player at a premium spot regardless of offense or defense .
 

I also think it’s true they need to surround Wilson with the most earnest attempt of support around him. We have 21 picks in the next two years. We are not drafting 21 players. JD has the ammo to go get the guy he wants in round 1. There is always teams looking to back out of the teens. To me, it just seems like a good spot to move up and get an AVT/Jenkins. You can still move back from 34 if you want to restore your capital. 

[FidelioJet]

1 minute ago, redlichtie said:

People forget that after 15 or so years of running 3-4 we have totally changed our defense and Saleh needs aggressive athletic linemen and ‘backers...we are 100% in the market for a player like Zaven Collins....I hope it happens a) because I think he’s a huge talent and b) because of the meltdown it’ll cause 

I agree.

Let's take a DT at 23....It's what's best for the team.  DT is likely to have the best value at 23 and be the BPA.  We have to take him - otherwise we're wasting value.  You can't draft for positional need.  

[redlichtie]

45 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

This team can’t afford a gamble like that any earlier than #66 IMO.  It’s a true roll of the dice.  Wish the kid well, uber talented. 

We got Bryce Hall in the 5th last year when he was considered a 1st or high 2nd rounder on talent....his injuries dropped him, I say this only to illustrate that Joe Douglas is not afraid to take a calculated gamble on a player like Caleb Farley

[redlichtie]

3 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I agree.

Let's take a DT at 23....It's what's best for the team.  DT is likely to have the best value at 23 and be the BPA.  We have to take him - otherwise we're wasting value.  You can't draft for positional need.  

I’m sensing you are not being altogether serious here?

DT is not a positional need....but edge/OLB very definitely is. Collins has so much versatility, he could rush off the edge, he can drop into coverage he could even replace Mosley. He would represent a very enticing option should he be there at 23.

If he’s the best player available at a position of real need then why reach for the same offensive lineman or slot receiver that you can still get at 34 or even later?....the depth at some of those offensive positions you(and I for that matter) want us to focus on is such that there’s little to differentiate the likely guys available from pick 20 through to 40....meanwhile a guy like Zaven Collins at 23 has the potential to be difference maker in our new D and there’s likely a significant drop off in talent at his position beyond him.

if Rashawn Slater or AVT is there at 23...if somehow Chase or one of the Alabama WR’s drops to 23 then for sure make the offensive guy the pick.....but smart GM’ing takes account of everything at that point including need, value, positional depth and possibly even trade offers.

[choon328]

30 minutes ago, nycdan said:

KC drafted Mahomes in 2017 and followed him up  with a DE before taking Hunt in the 3rd.  In 2018 they rattled off four straight defensive picks to start the draft.

Context.  They drafted Hunt. Already had Kelce, Tyreek Hill coming off a good Rookie year and an established top 10 offensive line. Totally different situation then the Jets are currently in. 

 

30 minutes ago, nycdan said:

CLE drafted Mayfield in 2018, followed later that round by Ward, a CB.  In 2019, four straight defensive picks to start the draft.  In 2020, they took an OL followed by three more defensive picks.

Again, context.  Drafted Nick Chubb in 2018 as well.  Drafted Njoku in 2017, drafted Antonio Calloway in the 4th rd in 2018, traded for Jarvis Landry in 2018 when he was widely considered one of the best WRs in the nfl. Traded for OBJ in 2019, signed Hunt in 2019. Had a veteran offensive line with 2 pro bowl guards during all of that. Again, a totally different situation then what the Jets find themselves in currently. 

 

30 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Look at TB.  In 2019, their first five draft picks were defense.  In 2018, 3 of their first 4 picks were defense.

In 2018 the Bucs had their QB in Winston,  Mike Evans, DeSean Jackson, Adam Humphries, Chris Godwin and OJ Howard. And 4/5ths of they offensive line were established veteran starters in the Nfl. They also drafted Ronald Jones in the 2nd round that year. They had all of those guys again in 2019 and also returned those same 4 veteran offensive lineman.  And then they went out and signed Brady and won a SB with those same players minus DeSean Jackson in 2020. Once again, the Jets are in an entirely different situation currently. 

The Jets had a bottom 5 offensive line in 2020 and did nothing to improve it. They had the worst TE situation in the nfl and did very little to improve it. They had one of the worst RB situations in the nfl and did very little to improve it. They had one of the worst WR situations in the nfl and did improve it with Davis. The Jets need talent all over this offense and in the nfl the only way to build an offense is through the draft bc teams very rarely let offensive playmakers leave in FA. It is much easier to address defense in FA, besides Edge,  than it is to address offensive skill positions. You have to draft those guys. This offseason was different bc of the shrinking cap so more playmakers were available then ever before. That won't happen again.