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12 minutes ago, Jetsbb said:

This just happened in the past few hours. Doesn't make any sense.

Makes perfect sense, he is trolling you. 

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Instead of explaining why we shouldn’t trade down ... I’ll just leave this here . U guys will like this @Mogglez @football guy 

Because this thread isn’t the only place where it happens. Post a film review?  It’s a race to see how quickly it can be derailed by children who are upset that the Jets might not get them their

Just say you paid for Matt Waldman’s RSP and be done with it.

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18 minutes ago, flgreen said:

In Sept I liked Fields too.  Wilson has MUCH better tape then Fields this season.

 

Agreed. It’s nothing against Wilson honestly, I think the kid would have done great on a team like San Fran. Ready for him. Don’t really know enough to say Fields better than Wilson or vice versa. I just think It will be tough sledding for any rookie Jets bring in too start right away. Merely going in the fact that James  Skalski tried to kill the kid in the Clemson game and he Survived it and balled out. That’s the most real thing I have to differentiate these two. 

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21 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Terrible critisism.

First off, who are these guys?

Second, it's clear one of them came in with an agenda

Third and most important - their biggest criticism came from a trick play.  Yes, they ran a flea flicker and he threw to the guy that the play was designed for (complete btw.) instead of some other receiver that was more open.  Yes, a trick played that is really designed to go to one receiver.  That was their big knock on him.  OMG...

Honestly, if you gotta dig that deep to justify your position that tells me a whole lot.

They were relatively respected YouTube evaluators until now cause I’m guessing they are not on the Wilson hype train?

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6 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Feels like the most likely reason frankly.

Odds Jets brass have been stalking this thread and so told Zach to follow some other teams?

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27 minutes ago, legler82 said:

They were relatively respected YouTube evaluators until now cause I’m guessing they are not on the Wilson hype train?

“Relatively respect youtube evaluators” LOL 

According to who? The video you posted has just over 800 views. The QB School guys last Zach Wilson video has 140k+

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I love how people are really stalking his IG to see who he's following. And then trying to act like it means something. Unless it's something you don't like....

*Zach Wilson follows Q-Will and Perine* "Oh look, it's a sign!"

*Zach Wilson follows the 49ers and Falcons, but not the Jets* "Oh it means nothing! Most likely trolling!*

Very Funny Reaction GIF

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5 minutes ago, Morrissey said:

“Relatively respect youtube evaluators” LOL 

According to who? The video you posted has just over 800 views. The QB School guys last Zach Wilson video has 140k+

I think you are conflating popularity with respect.  

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11 minutes ago, King P said:

I love how people are really stalking his IG to see who he's following. And then trying to act like it means something. Unless it's something you don't like....

*Zach Wilson follows Q-Will and Perine* "Oh look, it's a sign!"

*Zach Wilson follows the 49ers and Falcons, but not the Jets* "Oh it means nothing! Most likely trolling!*

Very Funny Reaction GIF

Following a store that has only one location that happens to be in NJ 30 minutes from Jets facility means nothing?

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47 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

Agreed. It’s nothing against Wilson honestly, I think the kid would have done great on a team like San Fran. Ready for him. Don’t really know enough to say Fields better than Wilson or vice versa. I just think It will be tough sledding for any rookie Jets bring in too start right away. Merely going in the fact that James  Skalski tried to kill the kid in the Clemson game and he Survived it and balled out. That’s the most real thing I have to differentiate these two. 

I understand what your saying Crusher, but the truth is, it's very difficult to draft a franchise QB.  Last one we drafted was 1965.  I don't know if I'm going to make the wait.  :)  

When you think one is avalible, you take him no matter what the team looks like.  If you wait to build the team, you won't be in position to draft one at 9-7.  Nobodies going to trade you a QB with the 1st or 2nd pick when they clearly need one too.

As has happened, I guess we can hope  that one falls to us in the 4th round or so.  Maybe Morgan? :)  Hasn't worked so well in the past.

I'm certainly no QB guru, don't know who is.  I love watching college QB's every year, mostly because the Jets always need one.  To me Wilson appears to have more talent then any QB I have seen in a very long time.  I like Fields, and think he has a chance to suceed in the NFL. but IMO Wilson is at another level.

I understand the fear of drafting a QB with a narrow frame like Wilson, but on the other hand Chad was 6'3" 235#.  Pretty tough kid. Being big framed Didn't work so well for him.  

IMO guys like Wilson don't come around very often.  I'll risk it rather then wait another 56 years.  JMO

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8 minutes ago, legler82 said:

I think you are conflating popularity with respect.  

If no one watches or listens to their videos how can anyone possibly respect  them? 

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1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

Terrible critisism.

First off, who are these guys?

Second, it's clear one of them came in with an agenda

Third and most important - their biggest criticism came from a trick play.  Yes, they ran a flea flicker and he threw to the guy that the play was designed for (complete btw.) instead of some other receiver that was more open.  Yes, a trick played that is really designed to go to one receiver.  That was their big knock on him.  OMG...

Honestly, if you gotta dig that deep to justify your position that tells me a whole lot.

I know exactly the play they’re talking about. Did they not also mention it was a pretty badly underthrown ball or did you decide to leave that out of your post?

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1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

Terrible critisism.

First off, who are these guys?

Second, it's clear one of them came in with an agenda

Third and most important - their biggest criticism came from a trick play.  Yes, they ran a flea flicker and he threw to the guy that the play was designed for (complete btw.) instead of some other receiver that was more open.  Yes, a trick played that is really designed to go to one receiver.  That was their big knock on him.  OMG...

Honestly, if you gotta dig that deep to justify your position that tells me a whole lot.

That was also the problem i had. Like they had to put the work in to find the negative plays. But, I appreciate it because I don’t want to be a homer

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11 minutes ago, derp said:

I know exactly the play they’re talking about. Did they not also mention it was a pretty badly underthrown ball or did you decide to leave that out of your post?

Stop, it was a trick play.  Those are what they are...

He had single coverage and put it up to his guy to make a play...and he did.

I think the point is....those are trick plays that have basically one receiver.  he had him in single coverage and threw it up forehis guy to make a play - and he did.

The ball was either under thrown or it was a back shoulder.  ZW throws a lot of back shoulder, so it's hard to tell.  My guess it was back shoulder. Everyone under throws the ball sometimes, ZW's deep ball accuracy is not in question...not even a little bit - so you can find the off throw if you're looking for one and if it's from a trick play - you're really working hard.

 

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8 minutes ago, DetroitRed said:

That was also the problem i had. Like they had to put the work in to find the negative plays. But, I appreciate it because I don’t want to be a homer

Sure, I get it.  I really do.

You need to look at the guys entire scope for sure.  ZW is not perfect by any means.  Of course he made miss throws, bad decisions - no one is claiming otherwise...He has a lot of work to do if he wants to become a top 5 QB - and no doubt he's going to have his struggles.  There are credible people with legitimate concerns about ZW's game - I know I have some.

I'm more just talking about these guys and that video.

From the first moment with those guys, specifically one of them...It was basically - I'm going against the grain - I don't like ZW and I'm going to show you why...clearly agenda driven.

And using trick plays (called by the coach) to question his decision making is just down right stupid and takes away any credibility these guy may have had.

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Interestingly enough that stop shop in NJ seems to be the reason why Zach followed Quinnen and Perrine specifically. Looking at mutual followers of the stopshop page and look at that Perrine and Quinnen come up.

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23 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Stop, it was a trick play.  Those are what they are...

He had single coverage and put it up to his guy to make a play...and he did.

I think the point is....those are trick plays that have basically one receiver.  he had him in single coverage and threw it up forehis guy to make a play - and he did.

The ball was either under thrown or it was a back shoulder.  ZW throws a lot of back shoulder, so it's hard to tell.  My guess it was back shoulder. Everyone under throws the ball sometimes, ZW's deep ball accuracy is not in question...not even a little bit - so you can find the off throw if you're looking for one and if it's from a trick play - you're really working hard.

 

Why would you throw back shoulder when your guy has a step, and what does it being a trick play have to do with anything? 

I don’t think it’s the only example, @win4ever has put together some great stuff on the draft forum, but it’s multiple things in one play. Wilson has quality protection for a trick play, misses a wide open touchdown, underthrows another touchdown, his guy makes a great play against weak competition that was harder than it had to be, and it ends up on the highlight reel.

Nobody is perfect as a prospect and we all have biases. You’re obviously very pro Wilson. It comes through in that post.

Wilson has top of the draft arm talent, a really quick release, shows a feel for anticipation, and moves well. He also had outstanding protection this year, played a weak schedule, missed reads, and has concerning tendencies against pressure like backing up. That can all be true. 

He’s a really, really fun, flashy prospect. The arm, the movement, the big plays. The protection and the schedule mean that he had opportunities to hunt downfield shots that I don’t think he would’ve had other places. His situation with the Jets will be far, far worse than it was at BYU. He’s not going to be able to play the same style in New York. 

I don’t think it’s unfair to question how he’s going to translate going from playing behind BYU’s great line against a mediocre schedule to playing for a bad football team with a bottom third of the league supporting cast against NFL caliber athletes. Doesn’t make him a bad prospect but digging into plays like that are kind of the whole point of evaluating prospects. That play wasn’t a good one and it wasn’t the only questionable one, it’s just a great example of multiple potential issues that could look really ugly in green and white on Sundays.

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33 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Sure, I get it.  I really do.

You need to look at the guys entire scope for sure.  ZW is not perfect by any means.  Of course he made miss throws, bad decisions - no one is claiming otherwise...He has a lot of work to do if he wants to become a top 5 QB - and no doubt he's going to have his struggles.  There are credible people with legitimate concerns about ZW's game - I know I have some.

I'm more just talking about these guys and that video.

From the first moment with those guys, specifically one of them...It was basically - I'm going against the grain - I don't like ZW and I'm going to show you why...clearly agenda driven.

And using trick plays (called by the coach) to question his decision making is just down right stupid and takes away any credibility these guy may have had.

Those guys formulated their opinion over watching several full games and watching plays like those over and over to try to get a feel for what he was doing. They’re then trying to condense that into an hour plus video. Of course they’re going to show you things that they think best demonstrate their perspective. That doesn’t mean it’s agenda driven.

And a missed read and an under throw on a trick play are a missed read and an under throw on a trick play. I don’t see how pointing that out is stupid. He should’ve looked at the wide open guy for a touchdown and if he led the guy he threw it to who had a step that would’ve been a touchdown. Very reasonable to think an NFL caliber athlete might have intercepted that ball.

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On 4/2/2021 at 8:32 PM, Morrissey said:

Zach’s never had anyone this talented to throw to 

 

Wouldn't it be something if #1 to #11 becomes the most successful passing tandem in NYJ  history?  

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17 minutes ago, derp said:

Why would you throw back shoulder when your guy has a step, and what does it being a trick play have to do with anything? 

I don’t think it’s the only example, @win4ever has put together some great stuff on the draft forum, but it’s multiple things in one play. Wilson has quality protection for a trick play, misses a wide open touchdown, underthrows another touchdown, his guy makes a great play against weak competition that was harder than it had to be, and it ends up on the highlight reel.

Nobody is perfect as a prospect and we all have biases. You’re obviously very pro Wilson. It comes through in that post.

Wilson has top of the draft arm talent, a really quick release, shows a feel for anticipation, and moves well. He also had outstanding protection this year, played a weak schedule, missed reads, and has concerning tendencies against pressure like backing up. That can all be true. 

He’s a really, really fun, flashy prospect. The arm, the movement, the big plays. The protection and the schedule mean that he had opportunities to hunt downfield shots that I don’t think he would’ve had other places. His situation with the Jets will be far, far worse than it was at BYU. He’s not going to be able to play the same style in New York. 

I don’t think it’s unfair to question how he’s going to translate going from playing behind BYU’s great line against a mediocre schedule to playing for a bad football team with a bottom third of the league supporting cast against NFL caliber athletes. Doesn’t make him a bad prospect but digging into plays like that are kind of the whole point of evaluating prospects. That play wasn’t a good one and it wasn’t the only questionable one, it’s just a great example of multiple potential issues that could look really ugly in green and white on Sundays.

Come on man. That was stupid criticism - and you know it.  Trick plays are designed and practiced all week - but only that week and are created to catch teams off guard and typically have one place to go with the ball - if it's not there it gets throw away.  in this case he had his guy 1:1 and threw it up for him to make a play - which, of course, he did.

I agree with the bolded.  If that is a concern of theirs, it's a legitimate concern, but that's not what they said.   I've seen plenty of people with your bolded concern and I completely understand it.  As I've stated I have real concerns with him.  Less so about the level of competition but other things I've noticed for sure. 

I do not think he's a perfect product by any means - but I just felt that video and particularly that play was a stupid one to call out.

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11 minutes ago, derp said:

Those guys formulated their opinion over watching several full games and watching plays like those over and over to try to get a feel for what he was doing. They’re then trying to condense that into an hour plus video. Of course they’re going to show you things that they think best demonstrate their perspective. That doesn’t mean it’s agenda driven.

And a missed read and an under throw on a trick play are a missed read and an under throw on a trick play. I don’t see how pointing that out is stupid. He should’ve looked at the wide open guy for a touchdown and if he led the guy he threw it to who had a step that would’ve been a touchdown. Very reasonable to think an NFL caliber athlete might have intercepted that ball.

Because you are coached to throw the ball to that guy if he is open (he was), the fact that another WR was more open  isn’t relevant, unless the guy he actually threw to was completely covered. 
 

Regardless, even if you think he executed the play horribly, it’s one play. There is virtually almost no other example in the 2020 season of him missing wide open guys deep... a criticism is valid when it happens over and over again, every QB makes every type of mistake a few times a year... 

Here is every wilson deep pass from the 2020 season... he completed 70% of his deep passes... I think he can throw deep 

 
BTW, I think the criticism about his inconsistent short game accuracy is valid. 

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8 minutes ago, QB1 said:

Because you are coached to throw the ball to that guy if he is open (he was), the fact that another WR was more open  isn’t relevant, unless the guy he actually threw to was completely covered. 
 

Regardless, even if you think he executed the play horribly, it’s one play. There is virtually almost no other example in the 2020 season of him missing wide open guys deep... a criticism is valid when it happens over and over again, every QB makes every type of mistake a few times a year... 

Here is every wilson deep pass from the 2020 season... he completed 70% of his deep passes... I think he can throw deep 

 
BTW, I think the criticism about his inconsistent short game accuracy is valid. 

I’m fairly certain there are other misreads, and I think the “it’s because that’s where you’re coached to throw it” is nonsense, honestly. He had plenty of time to look at the only other receiver. There’s no benefit of locking on to that read.

Where are the incompletions in that video? It certainly reinforces his line was excellent. And he obviously has arm talent. Nobody is questioning that. It’s how much the line and the competition factor in.

He’s not a terrible prospect. He is a difficult evaluation. There’s also the throws across the field outside the numbers he makes that defenses just don’t expect that won’t fly in the NFL, or the he attacks a different area of the field off outside zone play action than NFL teams do. It’s just not a straightforward evaluation. No quarterback prospect is. That’s why most of them bust.

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14 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Come on man. That was stupid criticism - and you know it.  Trick plays are designed and practiced all week - but only that week and are created to catch teams off guard and typically have one place to go with the ball - if it's not there it gets throw away.  in this case he had his guy 1:1 and threw it up for him to make a play - which, of course, he did.

I agree with the bolded.  If that is a concern of theirs, it's a legitimate concern, but that's not what they said.   I've seen plenty of people with your bolded concern and I completely understand it.  As I've stated I have real concerns with him.  Less so about the level of competition but other things I've noticed for sure. 

I do not think he's a perfect product by any means - but I just felt that video and particularly that play was a stupid one to call out.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion but I genuinely don’t believe it was a stupid criticism.

He had plenty of time, absolutely could have looked at the only other guy running a route and I see no reason not to do that, and didn’t throw the ball well to the guy he chose to throw it to. Shows up on the highlight film but at best it’s kind of hard to tell what happens there against higher caliber athletes. That’s what they’re trying to project.

And honestly, I think if he does stuff like that on the Jets, behind the offensive line and throwing to the pass catchers, I believe the result of that play would have been different.

Line between good plays and bad plays, wins and losses, in the NFL is pretty thin. That’s kind of Waldman’s whole thing.

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9 minutes ago, derp said:

I’m fairly certain there are other misreads. Where are the incompletions in that video? It certainly reinforces his line was excellent. And he obviously has arm talent. Nobody is questioning that. It’s how much the line and the competition factor in.

He’s not a terrible prospect. He is a difficult evaluation. There’s also the throws across the field outside the numbers he makes that defenses just don’t expect that won’t fly in the NFL, or the he attacks a different area of the field off outside zone play action than NFL teams do. It’s just not a straightforward evaluation. No quarterback prospect is. That’s why most of them bust.

Of course there might be a few other bad reads, Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady have multiple miss reads per year too. 

Zach Wilson completed 70% of his deep passes and was the highest ranked deep thrower by PFF. He threw (3) picks the whole year with one coming on his third pass of the year and another on a hail marry. 
 

here is every throw from 2020 though, let me know what you find, I couldn’t find much. 


the outside the number thing is so ridiculous. The idea that these throws would be picks at some absurd rate in the NFL makes no sense, if he was throwing so many risky inaccurate passes it would have resulted in bad things at any level, he wouldn’t of had an 80% adjust completion rate and ONE interception the whole year. The big thing that these guys fail to recognize with that critique is that he throws with Elite anticipation.... lastly, even if those throws were too risky to make in the NFL (they’re not) what is there to say that he couldn’t just adjust away from them and play it safer?

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2 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Terrible critisism.

First off, who are these guys?

Second, it's clear one of them came in with an agenda

Third and most important - their biggest criticism came from a trick play.  Yes, they ran a flea flicker and he threw to the guy that the play was designed for (complete btw.) instead of some other receiver that was more open.  Yes, a trick played that is really designed to go to one receiver.  That was their big knock on him.  OMG...

Honestly, if you gotta dig that deep to justify your position that tells me a whole lot.

I stopped when they showed a pass, under a rush, where he had the ball on the WR, a little to his left shoulder and they directed it to death.  Then claimed that by hitting his back shoulder he let the corner to defend it, even though he didnt.  And then bringing up Montana to Rice and how Walsh would scold Holmgren for saying good try or something stupid

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5 hours ago, legler82 said:

I think you are conflating popularity with respect.  

Curious.  

How have you decided these two are respected YouTube talent evaluators?  Whats your criteria that allows you to make that claim.  

 

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12 minutes ago, derp said:

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion but I genuinely don’t believe it was a stupid criticism.

He had plenty of time, absolutely could have looked at the only other guy running a route and I see no reason not to do that, and didn’t throw the ball well to the guy he chose to throw it to. Shows up on the highlight film but at best it’s kind of hard to tell what happens there against higher caliber athletes. That’s what they’re trying to project.

And honestly, I think if he does stuff like that on the Jets, behind the offensive line and throwing to the pass catchers, I believe the result of that play would have been different.

Line between good plays and bad plays, wins and losses, in the NFL is pretty thin. That’s kind of Waldman’s whole thing.

My god, you guys are actually bitching about one pass out of his career, a pass that was completed?

I dont give a F who you like I can find more tape for your guy that sucks a lot worse than this pass.  

Why cant the Fields, whoever crew just talk up Fields, theres plenty of good things to talk about.  Instead its incessant whining about what Wilson does wrong in their expert opinion

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17 minutes ago, derp said:

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion but I genuinely don’t believe it was a stupid criticism.

He had plenty of time, absolutely could have looked at the only other guy running a route and I see no reason not to do that, and didn’t throw the ball well to the guy he chose to throw it to. Shows up on the highlight film but at best it’s kind of hard to tell what happens there against higher caliber athletes. That’s what they’re trying to project.

And honestly, I think if he does stuff like that on the Jets, behind the offensive line and throwing to the pass catchers, I believe the result of that play would have been different.

Line between good plays and bad plays, wins and losses, in the NFL is pretty thin. That’s kind of Waldman’s whole thing.

Look, I definitely don't want to go back and forth on this..

But yes, if he continues to throw the ball to 1-on-1's and those passes are getting INT'd and he continues it, that's a problem.

He was throwing a lot of back shoulders and often threw jump balls (part of my concerns as well) his receivers were making those plays.  Should he have stopped because that might not work in the NFL?  

It was clearly working for him.  His guys were winning those battles and he was putting the ball into a position for them to do so.

So if you're criticism is - your worried that a lot of his success was simply because he was throwing the ball into 1-on-1 and without that he's going to have a hard time at the NFL level - I'm good with that concern.  As I stated, I actually share it to some degree.  

But if the point is that he was doing that successfully in college but in the NFL they'll get intercepted and he'll continue to do it anyway is just, IMO, silly.

 

Side note: Davis and Mims are taylor made for those back shoulder,  jump ball - anticipation type plays...the fit is amazing and likely not by accident.

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11 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Look, I definitely don't want to go back and forth on this..

But yes, if he continues to throw the ball to 1-on-1's and those passes are getting INT'd and he continues it, that's a problem.

He was throwing a lot of back shoulders and often threw jump balls (part of my concerns as well) his receivers were making those plays.  Should he have stopped because that might not work in the NFL?  

It was clearly working for him.  His guys were winning those battles and he was putting the ball into a position for them to do so.

So if you're criticism is - your worried that a lot of his success was simply because he was throwing the ball into 1-on-1 and without that he's going to have a hard time at the NFL level - I'm good with that concern.  As I stated, I actually share it.  

But if the point is that he was doing that successfully in college but in the NFL they'll get intercepted and he'll continue to do it anyway is just, IMO, silly.

 

Side note: Davis and Mims are taylor made for those back shoulder,  jump ball - anticipation type plays...the fit is amazing and likely not by accident.

If we were talking about chad Pennington I could see the concern, but this guy is a special arm talent. He can make any throw and doesn’t “need” a jump ball to be successful. There is a 6 minute cut up I posted with dozens of down the field dimes that hit guys in stride, he can obviously do it. Like you said tho, if this is what we are left to critique it probably says this guy is special. We aren’t taking about how many turnovers he has or how bad his down field completion percentage is... you know, actual results. 

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22 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Curious.  

How have you decided these are respected YouTube evaluators?  Whats your criteria that allows you to make that claim.  

 

Those of us that have been following the draft for a few years know of Waldman & Schofield.  They are mainstays of the draftnik community and podcast circuit.  There were folks doing this before JT O’Sullivan and Tim Jenkins 😅😂🤣😭

Curious why are we questioning popularity of the evaluators rather the evaluations?  Are they saying things that are wrong or ignorant?

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41 minutes ago, QB1 said:

Of course there might be a few other bad reads, Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady have multiple miss reads per year too. 

Zach Wilson completed 70% of his deep passes and was the highest ranked deep thrower by PFF. He threw (3) picks the whole year with one coming on his third pass of the year and another on a hail marry. 
 

here is every throw from 2020 though, let me know what you find, I couldn’t find much. 


the outside the number thing is so ridiculous. The idea that these throws would be picks at some absurd rate in the NFL makes no sense, if he was throwing so many risky inaccurate passes it would have resulted in bad things at any level, he wouldn’t of had an 80% adjust completion rate and ONE interception the whole year. The big thing that these guys fail to recognize with that critique is that he throws with Elite anticipation.... lastly, even if those throws were too risky to make in the NFL (they’re not) what is there to say that he couldn’t just adjust away from them and play it safer?

You’re regurgitating some stuff and misreading other things I said. I don’t think we’re going to end up on the same page, and that’s okay.

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33 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

My god, you guys are actually bitching about one pass out of his career, a pass that was completed?

I dont give a F who you like I can find more tape for your guy that sucks a lot worse than this pass.  

Why cant the Fields, whoever crew just talk up Fields, theres plenty of good things to talk about.  Instead its incessant whining about what Wilson does wrong in their expert opinion

I am in the taking a QB at 2 is stupid camp.

Why do the Wilson fans take questions about him so personally?

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