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43 minutes ago, adobolo2 said:

Exactly, wilson has a lot of big play ability but misses a lot of the simple stuff, he doesn't see the middle of the field very well.

This is completely false. 

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Instead of explaining why we shouldn’t trade down ... I’ll just leave this here . U guys will like this @Mogglez @football guy 

Because this thread isn’t the only place where it happens. Post a film review?  It’s a race to see how quickly it can be derailed by children who are upset that the Jets might not get them their

Just say you paid for Matt Waldman’s RSP and be done with it.

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17 hours ago, Philc1 said:

Yeah but those throws facing Dubuque Community College DBs looked so pretty

 

How many times can you say the same thing?  In every QB thread 

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9 minutes ago, FTL Jet Fan said:

At this point I am taking the same approach as I do with the Jets in general and that is a wait and see approach. I try not to judge these guys without as much knowledge as I can before forming an opinion on them but I do have my concerns about Wilson as I do hopes. I do like Fields but have my concerns also. 

And that is "expect the worse and you'll never be disappointed?"😃

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1 hour ago, JiF said:

That's what is wild to me, it's all the same bad habits that kill Sam and everyone here loves to point out about this game and you see all the same exact stuff, right there on tape but completely ignore it? Its weird.  And like Sam, it's one thing to get away with it in college, a different ball game in the NFL. 

I think he's going to need a ton of work and is by far, the riskiest pick in the draft.  I just dont see this huge upgrade from Sam when I watch him but 100% convinced we're taking him so I just have to hope I'm way wrong here.

 

Sam's biggest liability is his inability to see the field well.

That's not a criticism levied at Zach Wilson and it is a criticism often thrown at Justin Fields.

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2 hours ago, JiF said:

This 1 minute drill you guys are drooling over, it 4 plays, inaccurate pass but great adjustment, a check down, a slant, a wide open sideline throw CC didnt cover for some reason and then threw it 10 yards short of the endzone on the last play of the game, you'd kill Sam Darnold if he did that

 Uhhh, not sure about that one, friend. I can think of very few instances in which Sam came down the field on the last drive of the game and got us anywhere near the 2 yard line  (@buffalo rookie year, vs Miami in year 2 but only needed a FG, others examples?)

 

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55 minutes ago, adobolo2 said:

Exactly, wilson has a lot of big play ability but misses a lot of the simple stuff, he doesn't see the middle of the field very well. I presume if he is as football crazy and study's the game the way people say he does then this is coachable because he has the arm. 

I'd expect Zack to start the season on the bench for us and learn, as I said before I don't think any rookie QB has started for the Shannon coaching tree since RG3 and its the right way to play this. This is a leaning year for the Coaches and the rookie QB.

Wow, are you just making this up?  What simple stuff does he miss?  How do you complete 73% of your passes while missing the simple stuff?  LOL

Question, who was the last top 5 rookie Qb in the Shanahan tree, post RGIII?

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11 hours ago, slimjasi said:

Agreed. 

And I think you bring up an important point that bears repeating: Starting over with QBs on rookie contracts is economically and strategically sound in today's NFL. You can build a very good team very quickly if you hit it big with a good young QB who can be playing well by year 2. Yes you have to develop him and put pieces around him, but if you can get him to play well by year 2, you are in business. 

Yep. No one is trying to pay Sam 25 mill a year. Dak getting 40 mill a year, deserved or not is something to keep in mind when constructing a team. 

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3 minutes ago, HamBilly said:

No, he is correct. 

All of the scouting reports on Wilson says he misses easy completions for risky plays.

No they accuse him of passing by the simple passes for the risky plays.  Thats not missing the pass.

He completed 73% of his passes, how many did he miss?

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8 minutes ago, HamBilly said:

No, he is correct. 

All of the scouting reports on Wilson says he misses easy completions for risky plays.

Which isn't missing anything. If this is such a problem then how is is that his completion % was considerably higher than Fields or Lawrence last year?

Not taking the easy option is only a bad thing if it often backfires, and it rarely does with Wilson because more often than not he makes the riskier throw. 

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17 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I think he’s being overvalued because he prospered in a year where the entire earth was screwed to oblivion by a pandemic, playing against a bunch of punch and judy-ass Big Sky Conference hangers-on

A tight throw is a tight throw no matter if it’s between 3 Bama DB’s, 3 Costal Carolina DB’s or 3 trash cans.

read that again.

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He may be over rated.  Since there's a Namath thread I might as well say the reason I want him is like Namath he seems to have an easy grace to the way he throws a football and moves around the field.  Marino had it and when we passed on him I really couldn't believe it.  Not saying he won't be a complete bust.  I just think their's an elegance to his game that I would enjoy watching as a Jets fan.  

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26 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Wow, are you just making this up?  What simple stuff does he miss?  How do you complete 73% of your passes while missing the simple stuff?  LOL

Question, who was the last top 5 rookie Qb in the Shanahan tree, post RGIII?

Why do people get so upset and feel they have to defend a QB that might play for the jets in the future, we never seem to do this for the QBs that actually do play for us.

He does miss lots, I don't have the tools or resources to show the tape but just watch any QB evaluator break down his tape and they constantly point it out, as I say it's not something that's overly concerning because it can be coached.

I said no rookie qb has started for any coaches from the tree, if you can tell me one I'll gladly admit my mistake.

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8 minutes ago, adobolo2 said:

He does miss lots, I don't have the tools or resources to show the tape

Well then it’s probably best not to say things you no nothing about. We learn this at a young age and apply it our entire lives.

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17 hours ago, bealeb319 said:

How did that really turn out for the Bengals? He got injured and they pick three behind us. Let's wait till he has a whole season under his belt to judge?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using JetNation.com mobile app
 

Injuries happen in football.  Are you saying they should have passed on Burrow because their line wasn't up to par?   Before his injury he was looking like a true franchise quarterback.  I'm sure the Bengals are happy the drafted him and expect him be there quarterback for years to come.  This year they will take Penell and continue to build him a wall.   The truth is even if he hadn't got hurt they probably wouldn't have won more then 5 or 6 games if that much.   

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24 minutes ago, adobolo2 said:

Why do people get so upset and feel they have to defend a QB that might play for the jets in the future, we never seem to do this for the QBs that actually do play for us.

He does miss lots, I don't have the tools or resources to show the tape but just watch any QB evaluator break down his tape and they constantly point it out, as I say it's not something that's overly concerning because it can be coached.

I said no rookie qb has started for any coaches from the tree, if you can tell me one I'll gladly admit my mistake.

Because youre making stuff up? 

He doesnt "miss lots", you dont have the tools to show tape of the 27% of incomplete passes?  One more time, he completed 73% of his passes.  He didnt "miss lots."  When you say this, the agenda is apparent.  Its not on those who like Wilson.  

Whats the Shanahan tree consist of, how many HCs?  Of them how many have had top 2 over picks at QB?  So yeah, I cant name the QB.  

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19 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

Well then it’s probably best not to say things you no nothing about. We learn this at a young age and apply it our entire lives.

Fair enough, I don't have enough credit on here to have an opinion like this. I'll know my place in future.

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18 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

A tight throw is a tight throw no matter if it’s between 3 Bama DB’s, 3 Costal Carolina DB’s or 3 trash cans.

read that again.

My concern wouldn’t be whether or not he can throw the ball. My concern would be that, it appears from the taep, we’re not going to know how he handles a real pass rush until the preseason starts. Which is dicey. 

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2 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

My concern wouldn’t be whether or not he can throw the ball. My concern would be that, it appears from the taep, we’re not going to know how he handles a real pass rush until the preseason starts. Which is dicey. 

The reality is that this is true for every QB drafted. We never know how a guy is going to be able to process information and make decisions under the duress of an NFL pass rush. 

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2 minutes ago, adobolo2 said:

Fair enough, I don't have enough credit on here to have an opinion like this. I'll know my place in future.

No, definitely not what I meant lol. It’s totally cool to have an opinion, credit or no credit, your opinion matters. I just mean that your opinion in this particular manner...ehhhh...because he actually excels in the middle of the field so I kinda understood where things tie in as soon as you stated you didn’t really watch film.

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5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

My concern wouldn’t be whether or not he can throw the ball. My concern would be that, it appears from the taep, we’re not going to know how he handles a real pass rush until the preseason starts. Which is dicey. 

 

2 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

The reality is that this is true for every QB drafted. We never know how a guy is going to be able to process information and make decisions under the duress of an NFL pass rush. 

This is exactly how I was preparing to respond. I think he showed a lot of grit in the CC game film. He showed he can take hits, he can feel pressure leaking from either side and make the throw. We need better interior OL so the kid can stand in the pocket a bit and not learn bad habits like being antsy back there. (cough Sam Darnold)

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13 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

No, definitely not what I meant lol. It’s totally cool to have an opinion, credit or no credit, your opinion matters. I just mean that your opinion in this particular manner...ehhhh...because he actually excels in the middle of the field so I kinda understood where things tie in as soon as you stated you didn’t really watch film.

I'm out of work due the the pandemic in my country so I've had noting to do except engross myself into the whole Wilson debate. 

I don't have my own All 22 tape of BYU games, that's what I meant by saying I don't have the tools or resources to show examples of my opinion, I can only watch the games from the TV view point and watch other people going over the all 22.

I have seen a number of "experts" say it, Dan orlovsky (yes the same Dan who likes Darnold, so I know his opinion doesn't hold much with a lot of people around here) did a brake down yesterday and he pointed it out a few times. Every qb misses open players, it's not until the tape is gone trough with a fine tooth combe that it becomes obvious.

https://youtu.be/9CyxRhCL-qs

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1 hour ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

Sam's biggest liability is his inability to see the field well.

That's not a criticism levied at Zach Wilson and it is a criticism often thrown at Justin Fields.

Depends on who you ask.  I've noticed and others have as well, that Wilson struggles to see the middle of the field yet excels at throwing to sidelines.  And when he does use the middle of the field, its a 1 read slant or an ambulance ball or an ill-advised ball across his body on the run, probably a symptom of, being a little slow to anticipate routes using the middle of the field, the leaving the pocket so often and trusting your arm too much.  Whereas, when I watch Fields, I see someone who has to scan the entire field from the pocket because the offense requires progressions.  OSU doesnt nearly use as many rollouts which only used 1 side of the field.  It was much more of sit in the pocket and go through progression because they run so many deep routes, vert routes, sluggos and options.  

 

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1 hour ago, slimjasi said:

 Uhhh, not sure about that one, friend. I can think of very few instances in which Sam came down the field on the last drive of the game and got us anywhere near the 2 yard line  (@buffalo rookie year, vs Miami in year 2 but only needed a FG, others examples?)

 

Not sure you're following....what I was saying is hypothetical; if Sam threw the ball 10 yards short of the end zone on the last play of the game, he'd be crucified for not throwing into the endzone.  My point being, which as I'm typing this maybe it was the play call but seems like a stupid decision to throw the ball 10 yards short with no time left on the clock.

 

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1 minute ago, JiF said:

Not sure you're following....what I was saying is hypothetical; if Sam threw the ball 10 yards short of the end zone on the last play of the game, he'd be crucified for not throwing into the endzone.  My point being, which as I'm typing this maybe it was the play call but seems like a stupid decision to throw the ball 10 yards short with no time left on the clock.

 

Sure, but my point was that I'd be thrilled to just see Sam get us within 10 yards of the end zone in that spot.  I honestly don't think I would kill Sam for making that throw.

Also, I'm not sure what the play call was, but I personally didn't think there was anything wrong with that throw or decision in general and I have seen that type of play work in final play scenarios. 

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Whether he's overvalued or not -- clearly the comparison to Mahomes is part of why people are so excited about Wilson. The ball explodes out of their hands, they're adept in maneuvering in the pocket and throwing on the run, they have that multi-platform any arm angle throw ability. There's a lot of similarities in their game and since Mahomes is the best player in the league teams are naturally intrigued by a guy with similar abilities.

The success of Allena and Herbert have absolutely nothing to do with Wilson as they aren't even remotely similar players. 

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37 minutes ago, adobolo2 said:

Thank for posting! It further illustrates my point:

15 minutes ago, JiF said:

Whereas, when I watch Fields, I see someone who has to scan the entire field from the pocket because the offense requires progressions.  OSU doesnt nearly use as many rollouts which only used 1 side of the field.  It was much more of sit in the pocket and go through progression because they run so many deep routes, vert routes, sluggos and options.  

 

 

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6 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Sure, but my point was that I'd be thrilled to just see Sam get us within 10 yards of the end zone in that spot.  I honestly don't think I would kill Sam for making that throw.

Also, I'm not sure what the play call was, but I personally didn't think there was anything wrong with that throw or decision in general and I have seen that type of play work in final play scenarios. 

Sam has only led us to FG position for game winners that I recall and the college stoppage obviously changes things but I'd argue if Wilson didnt play so bad that game, they wouldnt have needed last minute heroics but I digress, this is a fair point.

I will disagree with the play call/decision, I hate depending on the catch and run play in that situation. 

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6 hours ago, JiF said:

 

I love you brother, but forgive me for interfering this lovely rant.  I will never get in the way of a good ripping of Philc but to make the comment above, shorty after this post, I just had chuckle and comment.

I watched that Coastal Carolina game, multiple times and was thoroughly unimpressed.  And it's funny you bring this game up in this thread because that game specifically I remember the announcers making the Pat Mahomes comparison because threw a laser across his body both feet in the air and nailed his guy in the #'s, pretty ironic given the thread.  3 years ago that was the biggest no-no in Football and now we're looking for this?   That game showcased the big time concerns of Zach Wilson; inaccurate, bad footwork, fading in clean pockets, running from clean pockets, inability to climb the pocket he just wants to leave it, careless with his body running the ball, hold the ball like a loaf of bread when he runs (didnt he just out right drop the ball once scrambling on this tape?).  This 1 minute drill you guys are drooling over, it 4 plays, inaccurate pass but great adjustment, a check down, a slant, a wide open sideline throw CC didnt cover for some reason and then threw it 10 yards short of the endzone on the last play of the game, you'd kill Sam Darnold if he did that...doesnt mean I didnt watch, dont know what I'm watching or just look at the stats. 

 

 

I guess you’re right.  Old habits die hard.  Whoops lol.  

Idk, I just didn’t walk away from it thinking it was a nail in the coffin for him as a prospect, just like I (eventually) came around to not totally killing Fields for the NW game and Lance for his one showing this year.  Sperms right up sums it up best, IMO.  I just happen to think there is a large collective of people who talk about that game to attack him, but not in depth enough for me to believe that they actually watched it.  It wasn’t all rainbows, but it certainly wasn’t all negative.

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7 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

I guess you’re right.  Old habits die hard.  Whoops lol.  

Idk, I just didn’t walk away from it thinking it was a nail in the coffin for him as a prospect, just like I (eventually) came around to not totally killing Fields for the NW game and Lance for his one showing this year.  Sperms right up sums it up best, IMO.  I just happen to think there is a large collective of people who talk about that game to attack him, but not in depth enough for me to believe that they actually watched it.  It wasn’t all rainbows, but it certainly wasn’t all negative.

100% and I think you know that's not me.  For example; the tape I've watched on Wilson, I by far came away the most impressed vs. Tenn. because of his late game heroics on the road in a hostile environment.  He led them to a comeback on a 1 minute drill (blown coverage but still), got them in FG range, took it to OT and made some big boy plays to help win that game.

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1 hour ago, JiF said:

Depends on who you ask.  I've noticed and others have as well, that Wilson struggles to see the middle of the field yet excels at throwing to sidelines.  And when he does use the middle of the field, its a 1 read slant or an ambulance ball or an ill-advised ball across his body on the run, probably a symptom of, being a little slow to anticipate routes using the middle of the field, the leaving the pocket so often and trusting your arm too much.  Whereas, when I watch Fields, I see someone who has to scan the entire field from the pocket because the offense requires progressions.  OSU doesnt nearly use as many rollouts which only used 1 side of the field.  It was much more of sit in the pocket and go through progression because they run so many deep routes, vert routes, sluggos and options.  

 

I’d love to see Fields in the BYU offense and vice versa for Wilson.   I think it would change the way people viewed these kids.  Fields’ athleticism makes him an even better fit for that offense than Wilson is.   

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I’d love to see Fields in the BYU offense and vice versa for Wilson.   I think it would change the way people viewed these kids.  Fields’ athleticism makes him an even better fit for that offense than Wilson is.   
No it really doesn't.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using JetNation.com mobile app

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2 hours ago, JiF said:

Depends on who you ask.  I've noticed and others have as well, that Wilson struggles to see the middle of the field yet excels at throwing to sidelines.  And when he does use the middle of the field, its a 1 read slant or an ambulance ball or an ill-advised ball across his body on the run, probably a symptom of, being a little slow to anticipate routes using the middle of the field, the leaving the pocket so often and trusting your arm too much.  Whereas, when I watch Fields, I see someone who has to scan the entire field from the pocket because the offense requires progressions.  OSU doesnt nearly use as many rollouts which only used 1 side of the field.  It was much more of sit in the pocket and go through progression because they run so many deep routes, vert routes, sluggos and options.  

 

The ambulance throws are a problem. That's a legit knock on Wilson. 

And it's odd about the OSU system. Most of the "tape" I watch is from that QB School channel, and JT O'Sullivan loves how they scheme guys open and attack defenses - generally speaking. 

But I'd agree it does seem weird they're not using Fields' athleticism with designed bootlegs, whereas clearly Wilson running that wide-zone Shanahan scheme does a lot of that.

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