Hmmmmm the Case For Darnold from a Wilson Lover!

[Charlie Brown]

4 hours ago, Phillyjet said:

This is probably the best analysis of Sam that I’ve seen.  His upside is still there.  Particularly mid-season, you could see him slip into his bad habits with lower body mechanics and occasionally lazy throws.  But the theory that he can’t read defenses is easily dispelled in this video.  That’s not his problem.  I’ve watched every throw of Darnold’s, and every throw of a NYJ QB over the last 40 years.  He is not a bust.  He was not the primary reason the Jets have sucked the last few years.

If we can get a haul for the 2nd pick, it is tempting to go that direction and actually build a complete team.  If we can’t get a haul, I’d be happy taking BPA which may be Wilson, and then having them compete in camp.

To the latter, the biggest issue there is not the locker room, it’s the fans.  Mid-season no one was talking about Wilson, yet now he is the new shiny toy.  Sometimes it takes patience to develop a player, and this system, with its quick reads could really unlock Darnold and would play to his strengths not his weaknesses.  But as many posters have said, I think the fans in NY are a real problem.  They don’t stick with guys through difficult times.  They make snappy judgments and the boo-birds begin.  That may ultimately be the reason they move Darnold, but it may also be the reason why three years from now, we are wondering who should replace Zach near the end of his rookie contract.  While Darnold is taking another team into the playoffs.  THat is same old Jets in a nutshell.

I’ll say it here again.  QB1 is not the biggest need we have in a few weeks.  Our needs are OL, WR, TE, Edge, and CB.  

I actually believe that the shoulder injury that Sam Darnold sustained in mid-season was far worse than we thought.or were told.  I also do believe that the injury made worse Darnold's fundamental mechanics problem worse at times.  Pain makes us do stupid things and Darnold already was at times making poor decisions on the field.

With Zach, what I do like his is the fact that his mechanics seem to be excellent.  I

Indeed, most of the power he seems to generate on his throws, after a significant shoulder surgery, appear to be directly tied to his tremendous technical skill, which is something we haven't seen in these parts, like EVER!!!  

So, I am in the camp of draft a QB and keep Darnold if you can't get FMV for him and let it play out!

Why, in the world would we be in favor of a rookie and a journeyman QB being on the team is beyond me after approximately 20 plus years of problematic QB play.

Finally, If we draft a QB we need a good "Dude" in that QB room and if Darnold is on the bench he won't undermine a rookie.  There is a reason why Flacco wasn't retained and it had nothing IMO to do with his arm talent. 

[DetroitRed]

People want to create a world where competition is a negative thing.  Systems that rely on competition have a pretty good track record of success 

[Gangrene]

37 minutes ago, K_O_Brien said:

WHich is true, but it's easier to clean up a guy's footwork than what's above his shoulders. 

If you haven't watched his review of Darnold, even if you hate Darnold the qb as you do, it's worth a watch.

Jenkins has reviewed the tape on both qbs. He likes Wilson's potential; he likes Darnold's elite traits. He said if he was making the decision, he'd keep Darnold...work on the issues and trade down, if possible, for picks.

[LIJetsFan]

Isn't Wilson a one year wonder?  I thought we weren't supposed to do that any more.

I would not be opposed to trading down from 2 if the package is reasonable and going with Sam for one more year (no 5th year option).  If he improves under the new CS & revamped roster then all is well and good.  If he fails again (which I expect) then our win loss record should be such that we'll be in position to try for a QB next year.  

Lot's of ifs.....

[Charlie Brown]

23 minutes ago, K_O_Brien said:

I'm sure his play would take a huge step forward. It could hardly get any worse. 

My question was, is there a modern precedent for someone in Sam's position now, with three years worth of mediocre play, becoming a top ten guy as you claimed? 

Because even if Sam's ceiling is a game-managing QB in the middle of the pack Garoppollo/Carr/Cousins/Goff range, you need to find better, as teams such as the 49ers are figuring out. And they passed on Sam for the cost of a second rounder. 

Steve  Young......

[genot]

23 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

Nah

What's their definition of an open receiver. How much pressure was the QB under when he mised an open receiver. What i do know,( what we know), is that the only receiver he had who got open, and ran a variety of routes, was Crowder. He's done very well with Darnold as his QB. 

[Patriot Killa]

26 minutes ago, NYJ1 said:

You also have a nice day. No disrespect here....

None at all. We all want what’s best for NYJ.

[ryu79]

Thought this video was insightful. Particularly on ball placement in common situations being an issue. 

That it wasn't addressed in season is coaching. I think it's also why you hear about folks like Lafleur being psyched about working with and pushing to potentially give it a shot with Sam. 

But it's a gamble and the hardest thing is our fanbase has already made its call, which makes that gamble even tougher to pull off. I think you've got to trade him at this point, just worry that most of his potential suitors have already made their moves this off season. 

[BroadwayRay]

6 hours ago, Charlie Brown said:

Hmmmmm I have been waiting for this video for a minute because this QB watcher loves Zach Wilson. Loves him!!!

Indeed, he like many others has Wilson higher rated than Lawrence!  
 

So I wanted to see what he said, and to take a peek behind what JD might be thinking and why it might be good to keep Darnold for one year even if the pick were Wilson or Fields,  take a look see:

 

This guy's take is basically, yeah, Darnold makes a lot of mistakes but I can team him not to do that, even though NFL coaches have been trying to get him not to do that for three years. 

[genot]

25 minutes ago, K_O_Brien said:

I'm sure his play would take a huge step forward. It could hardly get any worse. 

My question was, is there a modern precedent for someone in Sam's position now, with three years worth of mediocre play, becoming a top ten guy as you claimed? 

Because even if Sam's ceiling is a game-managing QB in the middle of the pack Garoppollo/Carr/Cousins/Goff range, you need to find better, as teams such as the 49ers are figuring out. And they passed on Sam for the cost of a second rounder. 

No precedent. How many 20 yr old QB''s we're named starters with a cast of garbage around them. Ws don't know what his ceiling is. He could continue to suck. He could become a game manager. Or he could become what we drafted him to be.Tell ya what. I would be more on your side of the fence, if Sam had Bowles and Bates the last three years. Irregardless of the talent around him. We know that wasn't the case. 

[BroadwayRay]

7 minutes ago, Charlie Brown said:

Steve  Young......

Not comparable. Steve Young spent five of his first six years in the NFL as a backup QB., during which time he accumulated 29 starts. Darnold has already started 38 games in three years.

[NYJ1]

43 minutes ago, genot said:

Yes, it will. Junk receivers. No running game. Bad play calling. Bad pass protection. Believe it or not, those things affect a QB's ability to perform and put points on the board. If Darnold played with High School talent, some people would still blame Darnold for not elevating they're play.

I agree. Honestly,  I have no idea if that's a wise choice or not. But like Greeny said yesterday Zach Wilson is a 50/50 proposition just like Darnold was 3 years ago. 

The only thing I know for sure is that no one, I don't care if you put Peyton Manning or any other sure fire hof QB on this team the last 3 years, would have been successful under these circumstances. And that truly gives me pause about wanting to jump the gun and trade him in favor of the shiny,  new car. He's already on our team. We can do whatever we want with him up to and including giving him a shot at being a starter. 

This, not to mention,  in the event the Jets do decide to keep Sammy and trade down from 2, we will have a lot of ammunition to take a QB next year if the need arises.....

[genot]

5 minutes ago, BroadwayRay said:

This guy's take is basically, yeah, Darnold makes a lot of mistakes but I can team him not to do that, even though NFL coaches have been trying to get him not to do that for three years. 

Excuse me. Who was the sideline coach that was working with him on his issues. 

[K_O_Brien]

9 minutes ago, Gangrene said:

If you haven't watched his review of Darnold, even if you hate Darnold the qb as you do, it's worth a watch.

Jenkins has reviewed the tape on both qbs. He likes Wilson's potential; he likes Darnold's elite traits. He said if he was making the decision, he'd keep Darnold...work on the issues and trade down, if possible, for picks.

I've watched his review. I've also watched every game Sam has played for three seasons, as I'm sure we all have. 

It's easy for Jenkins on a Youtube channel with 1,500 views to say, 'nah, I'm actually passing on Wilson, let's keep Sam'. No one is ever going to hold him accountable and taking a contrarian viewpoint actually helps his profile, as evident by the fact we have a thread devoted to him here. Jenkins the GM would be singing a different tune, if he had to allow for fifth year options, rookie contracts, job security and all that goes with it. 

Watching these videos is a nice diversion until the draft. Actions are all that mattered, we will see what NFL teams really think of Darnold in terms of what they are prepared to offer. So far, most teams have decided to look elsewhere, but there may be team(s), including the Jets that think he worth another shot. We will find out soon enough. 

 

 

[NYJ1]

10 minutes ago, genot said:

Excuse me. Who was the sideline coach that was working with him on his issues. 

Good point. Sammy never had a QB coach and his HC the last two years is widely regarded as potentially the very worst HC the Jets have ever had. Right up there with Rich Kotite. Honestly, what did Sammy have to look forward to? Mike Macagnan was an irresponsible,  incompetent bum of a GM. He gave Sammy NOTHING to work with. Sammy had the worst of circumstances the last 3 years and I don't really think that's up for debate. 

[Charlie Brown]

19 minutes ago, BroadwayRay said:

This guy's take is basically, yeah, Darnold makes a lot of mistakes but I can team him not to do that, even though NFL coaches have been trying to get him not to do that for three years. 

Hmmmmm really, what was the QB coach that had the job of improving Sam's QB play for the Jets the last three years like every other team in the NFL?

I forget his name?  

@genot seems to have the same question.....

[genot]

2 minutes ago, Charlie Brown said:

Hmmmmm really, what was the QB coach that had the job of improving Sam's QB play for the Jets the last three years like every other team in the NFL?

I forget his name?  

@genot seems to have the same question.....

Just listened to a video of Brett Favre in another thread. He had Andy Reid and Steve Mariucci as his QB coaches. All these QB's came into the league with a dedicated QB coach. The Jet's. No. Until now. George Knapp has been around for a long time.

[Grandy]

Darnold could still be a good QB, and he does some unique things. However with him failing at almost every QB fundamental, he's a full scale project if invested in. Overall, he's a ginger Bortles. He's had sh*t support but even when it's a clean pocket, he's still bottom of the barrel. 

These are issues he's struggled with forever. The notion that he'd magically fix everything at this point in his career is somewhat false hope. Believe me, I used to have a lot of faith in his talent but I always knew he was somewhat of a project with a low floor. He's had bad support, but has not shown that he can overcome adversity with regards to it. A lot of similar mechanical and pressure issues exist from college. That's why his ceiling is limited no matter what IMO. Multiple guys have come into bad situations the last few years and played head and shoulders better than Darnold. Having talent doesn't always mean it gets figured out. There may be some wow moments, but the top trait in a Franchise QB is consistent quality. He's shown unteachable talent, but never consistent quality.

Banking on Darnold suddenly figuring it out and correcting multiple detrimental flaws in his game is risky. 

[Grandy]

15 minutes ago, Charlie Brown said:

Hmmmmm really, what was the QB coach that had the job of improving Sam's QB play for the Jets the last three years like every other team in the NFL?

I forget his name?  

@genot seems to have the same question.....

Jordan Palmer, who he spends months with every off-season, and somehow still doesn't develop any QB fundamental. 

[Charlie Brown]

18 minutes ago, BroadwayRay said:

Not comparable. Steve Young spent five of his first six years in the NFL as a backup QB., during which time he accumulated 29 starts. Darnold has already started 38 games in three years.

Do you know what Young's record is when he started for TB?  What was Young's QB rating and his TD/INT ratio? ...  Oh and he didn't get those stats on the bench!

Again, I am not against Wilson but I am against silly narratives about college QBs!

This is why I was AGAINST DRAFTING DARNOLD!!!  

I remember the "Suck for  Sam" movement out here and I said then that Sam would FAIL because the team sucked and people had fantasy land beliefs about him, when he was the youngest QB who would start in NFL history, had insufficient college experience, had evidenced only ONE GOOD year of play, had poor mechanics and hadn't thrown enough passes yet in his college career to START right away in the NFL ----- couple this with ----the Jets who obviously had no PLAN to develop Sam, had the worse skill position players in the NFL, horrible OL, no consistent offensive philosophy, poor coaching and a terrible GM and again I said that = FAILURE!!!

Yet I was repeatedly assured that Darnold was a "transcendent talent" who would "lift" the Jets upward and not to worry! Now some of the same folks, a mere three years later, who were saying that stuff then are now peddling the same silliness around Wilson... No, you can't make it up.

All I am saying with Wilson is give him the chance to grow---- That means have talent around him to succeed and maybe even let him SIT for a year so he can grow, and maybe just maybe, the Jets can break the back of their own stupid trends this time! 

[Dunnie]

Define big money?  

30mill a year

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using JetNation.com mobile app

[Charlie Brown]

16 minutes ago, genot said:

Just listened to a video of Brett Favre in another thread. He had Andy Reid and Steve Mariucci as his QB coaches. All these QB's came into the league with a dedicated QB coach. The Jet's. No. Until now. George Knapp has been around for a long time.

Yet when sane folks brought up the Jets lack of a QB coach being a problem we were told "either. a player has it or they don't", they the player should be able to "coach" themselves!

Finally, the Jets are doing what every other team has been doing for the last twenty years! 

[Charlie Brown]

1 minute ago, Dunnie said:

30mill a year

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using JetNation.com mobile app
 

No one in their right mind is paying Darnold 30Million Dollars based on his poor QB play... NO ONE!

Tanny is an analyst not a GM anymore...  

[Dunnie]

I agree. Honestly,  I have no idea if that's a wise choice or not. But like Greeny said yesterday Zach Wilson is a 50/50 proposition just like Darnold was 3 years ago. 
The only thing I know for sure is that no one, I don't care if you put Peyton Manning or any other sure fire hof QB on this team the last 3 years, would have been successful under these circumstances. And that truly gives me pause about wanting to jump the gun and trade him in favor of the shiny,  new car. He's already on our team. We can do whatever we want with him up to and including giving him a shot at being a starter. 
This, not to mention,  in the event the Jets do decide to keep Sammy and trade down from 2, we will have a lot of ammunition to take a QB next year if the need arises.....

Even Trevor Lawrence is a risk.. any rookie QB is a risk.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using JetNation.com mobile app

[Dunnie]

No one in their right mind is paying Darnold 30Million Dollars based on his poor QB play... NO ONE!
Tanny is an analyst not a GM anymore...  

I agree.. which is why he will find employment elsewhere

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using JetNation.com mobile app

[Charlie Brown]

21 minutes ago, Grandy said:

Jordan Palmer, who he spends months with every off-season, and somehow still doesn't develop any QB fundamental. 

Hmmmmmm

That is an interesting answer but First Palmer is NOT EMPLOYED by the Jets - that is Darnold's private QB coach ----who now has Buffalo's QB Josh Allen playing at a high level and Second, and far more damming is the fact that the DRILLS specifically designed by Palmer to help Darnold were literally rejected and not followed by Adam (GURU) Gase.

 

[C Mart]

19 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

30mill a year

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using JetNation.com mobile app
 

No way he is in line for that. Maybe Mayfield and JAllen are but Sam doesn’t have the resume. Jets would be better off picking up his 5th yr option of $19m+ next month.  That would put him at an avg of $14m for the next 2 yrs. 

[kdels62]

3 hours ago, NYJ1 said:

My train of thought has been telling me all off season that the Jets should go all in with Sammy, but I've always wanted the Jets to still draft a QB. The Jets need to light a fire under Sammy's as$. No free rides. Let him prove he deserves to be the starter. With that said, not necessarily picking a QB at 2, but still someone to challenge Sammy.

I guess I could live with the Jets taking Wilson at 2, but I'd still like Sammy to remain with the Jets and give him an honest opportunity at winning the starting job? Now, if this done truly honestly? Don't be surprised if SAMMY wins the starting job. I'm not taking anything away from Zach Wilson but there's too many yahoos on this site that are so impressed with the bling bling new, shiny thing? I quite frankly think that's dumb.

Zach Wilson is no more of a SPECIAL QB candidate than Sammy was 3 years ago. The fact is, Sammy was just as good, if not a BETTER prospect than Zach Wilson.

I'd prefer the Jets to squeeze every bit of value out of the number 2 pick when trading down. That's why I've always suggested the Jets should pick a QB after say the 1st round. But if JD truly believes that Zach Wilson is the guy, he should take him. Put him in an honest, let the chips fall where they may, contest with Sammy. What's the harm in that? And honestly, I just don't think it's sound logic to limit your opportunities at discovering that ever elusive franchise QB? Worst case, you get a 3rd round compensatory pick when Sammy leaves in FA after this season....

This is wrong. Wilson and Fields are better prospects than Darnold. Not even close. 

PFF Grade: 83.6 

Adjusted completion percentage: 70.6%

Big time Throw percentage: 6.9%
 

PFF Grade: 95.4

Adjusted completion Percentage: 80.3%

Big Time Throw Percentage: 8.6%

 

PFF grade: 93.5

Adjusted completion Percentage: 80.8%

Big time Throw Percentage: 7.8%

[doitny]

13 minutes ago, C Mart said:

No way he is in line for that. Maybe Mayfield and JAllen are but Sam doesn’t have the resume. Jets would be better off picking up his 5th yr option of $19m+ next month.  That would put him at an avg of $14m for the next 2 yrs. 

which would still be a major overpay for him. and JD doesnt overpay for nobody.

if we keep him he plays for his contract.

[Gangrene]

1 hour ago, K_O_Brien said:

I've watched his review. I've also watched every game Sam has played for three seasons, as I'm sure we all have. 

We will find out soon enough. 

You're right, we'll find out soon enough, and we'll both cheer for whomever is taking snaps behind center on September 12th.

[BroadwayRay]

2 hours ago, Charlie Brown said:

Hmmmmm really, what was the QB coach that had the job of improving Sam's QB play for the Jets the last three years like every other team in the NFL?

I forget his name?  

@genot seems to have the same question.....

 

2 hours ago, genot said:

Excuse me. Who was the sideline coach that was working with him on his issues. 

Oh, yeah, I forgot. All of Darnold's failings are because of Gase. We should all have an Adam Gase in our lives so we don't get blamed for anything.

[BroadwayRay]

1 hour ago, Charlie Brown said:

Do you know what Young's record is when he started for TB?  What was Young's QB rating and his TD/INT ratio? ...  Oh and he didn't get those stats on the bench!

He had one bad season as a starter. The rest were all as a backup. Again, not comparable to what we've seen from Darnold.

[Charlie Brown]

1 minute ago, BroadwayRay said:

 

Oh, yeah, I forgot. All of Darnold's failings are because of Gase. We should all have an Adam Gase in our lives so we don't get blamed for anything.

Ummmmmm Gase was NOT the QB coach he was the HC & OC .......

So who was tasked with working with Darnold again, I forget?

[Charlie Brown]

1 minute ago, BroadwayRay said:

He had one bad season as a starter. The rest were all as a backup. Again, not comparable to what we've seen from Darnold.

With post like this SNOOPY you are banned from coming into the HOUSE!!!   

[adobolo2]

This board has gone from 6 new Wilson treads everyday for the last month but today the top 2 treads are about Sam and the third is about a trade down with the 49ers.........what's happening? Is it finally sinking in we are keeping sam