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If Your HC and OC Are Telling You They Can Fix Darnold, Then You...


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7 hours ago, neckdemon said:

i get that mindset......but if thats not your brand new head coaches mindset you're telling him too bad? douglas isn't a coach......i think you listen to your brand new shiny coach in this case and give him the guy(s) he wants

i doubt the shiny new coach gave a ..... its sam or nobody ultimatum. 

it was more like, ... we can fix sam ...if you want...OR fix another QB. whatever you want boss. no way JD hires these guys if they told him its sam or bust.

you got one year to fix sam.... 4-5 to make Wilson a FQB.  

 

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Point and laugh then draft a QB?

If Your HC and OC Are Telling You They Can Fix Darnold, Then You...   Realize that you hired a bunch of idiots. 

really? so you hire a highly touted head coach and OC and then you laugh in their face and go against their wishes on who they want at qb? that would be pretty dumb

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5 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

Again T0m.  If you’re argument to avoid drafting a Zach Wilson, is suggesting that we trade down for picks so we can ultimately trade them to draft another Zach Wilson type next year, it’s kind of a bad argument.

I’m not advocating drafting up at all! I’m saying the package of Darnold+8+two more firsts isn’t a bad consolation prize if they opted to bounce on Wilson. Maybe Darnold becomes passable in the Shanahan offense and you don’t have to worry about a quarterback at all. If he sucks, you’re drafting high anyway.

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You can't find a buyer willing to give up a Day 2 pick for Darnold but you're all in favor of trading away the #2 for a litany of picks to stick with the worst starting QB in the league. Makes sense

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2 hours ago, T0mShane said:

So, in this scenario, you get the 8 pick, plus another two(?) firsts. You draft Slater, or one of the receivers at 8. The season goes one of two ways:

1. Darnold becomes decent+ under LaFleur and the Jets go 8-8, 9-7.

2. Darnold continues to suck, and the Jets go 4-12, 5-11 and they get the 6 pick next year, along with two other firsts. 
 

Win win either way. 

What if they go 8-9?

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6 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I’m not advocating drafting up at all! I’m saying the package of Darnold+8+two more firsts isn’t a bad consolation prize if they opted to bounce on Wilson. Maybe Darnold becomes passable in the Shanahan offense and you don’t have to worry about a quarterback at all. If he sucks, you’re drafting high anyway.

In concept i agree, who doesn’t want multiple 1st rounders in multiple years.  In reality, we know that it’s hard to be in good position to draft qbs without trading up.  And with better talent and a more competent coaching staff, the jets probably won’t be picking 2nd or perhaps even top 5.  So as has been written here, there’s a good chance that if darnold busts (again), the jets will need to burn this additional draft capital to move up to take next year’s wilson.  And lastly, there’s always an undercurrent of a bad news bearsesque ‘wait ‘till next year’ among jet fans.  We’re terrified that if we blow our load and take our shot now, this year, and it doesn’t work, we’re screwed for all eternity, yet that’s the only way we’re ever getting out of this 10 year purgatory we’ve been in.

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11 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I’m not advocating drafting up at all! I’m saying the package of Darnold+8+two more firsts isn’t a bad consolation prize if they opted to bounce on Wilson. Maybe Darnold becomes passable in the Shanahan offense and you don’t have to worry about a quarterback at all. If he sucks, you’re drafting high anyway.

I get it.  I just have this feeling that the addition of Saleh and his staff is enough to get this team near ~6-11/7-10, which then leaves you in the awkward situation of needing to pay Sam (who I don’t think will turn it around enough to warrant a long term commitment) or trade up (ughhh).  That’s primarily where I see our respective potential  scenarios clashing.

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57 minutes ago, neckdemon said:

So when do we put him in the hall of fame? Best arm talent if anyone in the nfl? Seems a bit exaggerated

I meant of the top 5 prospects

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6 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

I get it.  I just have this feeling that the addition of Saleh and his staff is enough to get this team near ~6-11/7-10, which then leaves you in the awkward situation of needing to pay Sam (who I don’t think will turn it around enough to warrant a long term commitment) or trade up (ughhh).  That’s primarily where I see our respective potential  scenarios clashing.

Exactly, then you end up trading those extra first to move up anyways to get the QB you want, SO WHAT THE HELL IS THE POINT???

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47 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

1.  Not very likely.  Nothing on his tape tells me be he can be average.  I see a kid who is completely destroyed.

2.  Even if he is average, that means you are picking anywhere from 10-15.  A QB who is nothing more than average, that you either have to pay or move on from, and a middle of the 1st round draft pick in a very weak QB class.

My position is that we should draft a QB this year, but also retain Sam. I like this year's class, and while I like Sam and still think he has potential, I wouldn't let this opportunity pass by.  I'm fine with kicking the Sam decision/trade down the road.

Joe and the coaching staff are the experts. If they feel otherwise I'll support there decision. Me, I prefer to hedge my bets.

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48 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Josh Allen went 7. Deshaun went 12. Mahomes went 10. You don’t have to reach for this year’s Trubisky because you’re afraid of picking 6 next year.

if we picked 6th this year , 3 maybe 4 QBs are off the board. wouldnt you rather be at 2 to pick the QB you want?

sure those teams got lucky when Mahomes dropped to 10. but thats not always the case.

if the giants picked a QB that they needed Allen might not ever dropped to 7. 

the year we picked Geno in the 2nd rd he was the 2nd QB taken in the draft EJ Manuel was 1st.  next year can be that bad. or it could be great. we dont know. we do know this year many teams are raving over 5-6 QBs. and we have the 2nd pick to draft anyone not named Trevor. this is the year to draft a QB.

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I'd be happy that we have a coaching staff confident enough that they could fix Darnold. But that does NOT mean, nor has it been reported, that they don't want Wilson (or fields for that matter). Drafting a qb and starting the clock over is just smart football...and smart book keeping. If you can't move darnold for anything, fine. But you take the QB and keep your options open.

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6 hours ago, C Mart said:

If Darnold is as bad as everyone here says he is then a trade up won’t be necessary. They’ll be picking top 3 again April 2022, right? 

And I’m pretty sure in saying this. No draft person had Wilson as a top 10 pick QB for 2021 prior to at least August? 

Just as no one had Burrows Aug 2019 as a top prospect. 

Joe Douglas’ seat will be scalding red hot if the Jets are picking in the top three again next year. He’s not rolling with Darnold. 

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you gotta wonder if we drafted Josh Rosen if he would still be on this team. if the coach, the roster, and the moon are the reasons sam was bad, then it would be the same excuse for Rosen.

and if sam got drafted by Arizona he would be on a practice squad right now. 

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People on the keep Sam bandwagon are ignoring the financial aspects of this move.  Wilson comes in with 4 years on a rookie deal with a 5th year option.  The Jets wasted Darnold's rookie deal.  If the Jets exercise Darnold's 5th year option, they have to decide by early May and pay him the average of the top 10 QBs in the NF in 2022, which is above $30 million a season.  If they don't exercise the 5th year option and then don't want to lose him  after 2021, they have to either sign him long term or franchise him.  The franchise tag for QBs in 2022 will be $35 million or so.  So, would you rather have Wilson for $6 million in 2021 going up in $2 million increments to $12 million in 2025 or Darnold at $50  million plus for  2021-2022.  For me, this makes Wilson a no-brainer when you also factor in that the Jets may not draft this high again for a long time. 

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5 hours ago, Paradis said:

The difference here is you’re operating under the belief that Darnold is walking dead. They think there’s still a QB there after some spit and polish. Otherwise he’d be gone. Doesn’t matter you or I say about that, that’s their headspace 

Or that's just what they're saying to find a sucker who will offer them a high a draft pick for him.

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1 hour ago, Charlie Brown said:

This is especially true with the Jets when Sanchez, Smith nor Darnold should ever  have been starting day one!

 

Never understood starting any of them day 1. Darnold I was most comfortable with, but I saw no reason to force him in the lineup either. Should’ve started McCown first 4-6 games.

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1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

I’m not advocating drafting up at all! I’m saying the package of Darnold+8+two more firsts isn’t a bad consolation prize if they opted to bounce on Wilson. Maybe Darnold becomes passable in the Shanahan offense and you don’t have to worry about a quarterback at all. If he sucks, you’re drafting high anyway.

Yeah that’s the other argument if you think Sam is terrible and unfixable why are you saying we can’t get another great QB prospect next year and without trading up.  If they are arguing he is mediocre then that would fly more, but not many if any are declaring him mediocre it’s either he is terrible or he is good or fixable.

So I guess I’m saying the real argument should come from people who think he is mediocre and the Jets can’t win with him but won’t be bad enough to get another high pick to get a QB next year.

Also to all the guys clamoring what if another prospect doesn’t come along as good as Wilson I call BS because that’s all every drafted QB is a prospect nothing more nothing less this year next it’s equally a crap shoot.

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4 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

Yeah that’s the other argument if you think Sam is terrible and unfixable why are you saying we can’t get another great QB prospect next year and without trading up.  If they are arguing he is mediocre then that would fly more, but not many if any are declaring him mediocre it’s either he is terrible or he is good or fixable.

So I guess I’m saying the real argument should come from people who think he is mediocre and the Jets can’t win with him but won’t be bad enough to get another high pick to get a QB next year.

Also to all the guys clamoring what if another prospect doesn’t come along as good as Wilson I call BS because that’s all every drafted QB is a prospect nothing more nothing less this year next it’s equally a crap shoot.

The issue is we don'T know exactly what he is and thanks to Gase, we're out of time. Imo, Best thing for both parties is to start over. If he's here, No Gase and a better cast would probably get us closer to mediocre, but then what? Reup darnold on a wing and a prayer? No. If you're Joe D and there's a qb that turns your head, Pick that QB you want and start over. 

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9 hours ago, neckdemon said:

really? so you hire a highly touted head coach and OC and then you laugh in their face and go against their wishes on who they want at qb? that would be pretty dumb

And if Zach turns out to be a stud while Darnold remains Darnold, do you know who gets the hammer for giving up Zach? It sure won’t be the HC. The only thing saving the GM would be his guaranteed contract. 

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3 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

Yeah that’s the other argument if you think Sam is terrible and unfixable why are you saying we can’t get another great QB prospect next year and without trading up.  If they are arguing he is mediocre then that would fly more, but not many if any are declaring him mediocre it’s either he is terrible or he is good or fixable.

So I guess I’m saying the real argument should come from people who think he is mediocre and the Jets can’t win with him but won’t be bad enough to get another high pick to get a QB next year.

Also to all the guys clamoring what if another prospect doesn’t come along as good as Wilson I call BS because that’s all every drafted QB is a prospect nothing more nothing less this year next it’s equally a crap shoot.

As a guy who thinks Darnold sucks and is not the guy, I will say this:

Trading down only excites me under one scenario - we end up with two picks in the top 10 THIS year. I have no interest in watching Sam again for another year if most of the draft capital acquired from trading down isn’t coming until 2022 and 2023.

If the Jets are trading out for future 1sts, I want those 1sts used to get another top ten pick this year. If I have to watch year 4 of Darnold, I want Pitts and Slater or something similar.

Otherwise, f*ck off 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, RVAJet815 said:

The issue is we don'T know exactly what he is and thanks to Gase, we're out of time. Imo, Best thing for both parties is to start over. If he's here, No Gase and a better cast would probably get us closer to mediocre, but then what? Reup darnold on a wing and a prayer? No. If you're Joe D and there's a qb that turns your head, Pick that QB you want and start over. 

I’m ok with this if that QB is Fields.  I just think Darnold and Wilson bring the exact same thing for the Offensive system the Jets are gonna run so why do that.  If you want a QB reset I understand but it has to be Fields IMO what he brings you can’t find very often, and if you can some how package Darnold and pick 23 to move up to draft one of the 4 pass catchers that will go early in this draft more specifically Waddle would be ideal.  Could you imagine adding a 4.4 play making QB whose best trait throwing is his electric deep ball accuracy and pairing him with a guy like Waddle could give the Jets a Mahomes to Hill type of connection.

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32 minutes ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

People on the keep Sam bandwagon are ignoring the financial aspects of this move.  Wilson comes in with 4 years on a rookie deal with a 5th year option.  The Jets wasted Darnold's rookie deal.  If the Jets exercise Darnold's 5th year option, they have to decide by early May and pay him the average of the top 10 QBs in the NF in 2022, which is above $30 million a season.  If they don't exercise the 5th year option and then don't want to lose him  after 2021, they have to either sign him long term or franchise him.  The franchise tag for QBs in 2022 will be $35 million or so.  So, would you rather have Wilson for $6 million in 2021 going up in $2 million increments to $12 million in 2025 or Darnold at $50  million plus for  2021-2022.  For me, this makes Wilson a no-brainer when you also factor in that the Jets may not draft this high again for a long time. 

It’s been reported Darnold’s 5th yr option is $19m+...Deadline is May 3rd. 

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1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

I’m not advocating drafting up at all! I’m saying the package of Darnold+8+two more firsts isn’t a bad consolation prize if they opted to bounce on Wilson. Maybe Darnold becomes passable in the Shanahan offense and you don’t have to worry about a quarterback at all. If he sucks, you’re drafting high anyway.

PFF has a great way to look at the draft.

Two approaches to drafting:

1, Draft BPA at whatever position and hope they turn into a good player. Obvious McCoffee did this in all his drafts

2.  Use your high draft picks on high salaried positions. When you do that the cost savings over a decent player at that position allow you to sign additional good to very good players at the positions that do not cost a lot money. And with that savings consistent for 4 years it winds up being more additional really good players than it actually seems.

And QB is the #1 position to do that. Most of the QBs (or teams) that got to the playoffs since slotted salaries NOT named Tom Brady have QBs on rookie contracts. Including Mahomes this year, he got an extension not an increase in his rookie contract years..

Rookie first round QB has an additional value of 4 extra players

So when they analyze the 49ers trade, even with given up 2 additional firsts and a 3rd SF wins that trade almost all the time. Because not only do they get a QB but they get 3 or 4 established players which is equal or slightly better than the picks they gave away.

In the Jets case they have #2. It's value is a QB and 3-4 additional players. But many want to trade away the pick for like 3 additional picks. So in essence you would be trading Wilson for Pitts and the teambuilding element is essentially the same.

Another way to look at it is this, because the rookie contract is so valuable and because the Jets already have #2, picking Zack Wilson is essentially FREE in terms of overall team value. So we get to see what Wilson has and if he can be a franchise guy with no difference in risk from trading down. Just Wilson alone has much more value than the draft value chart because of the scarcity and value of QBs

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5 hours ago, Paradis said:

Sure but they’re largely aligned. JD would have traded Sam already if he didn’t think there was value in considering a Darnold-led push has merit. 

the grass isn’t always greener on the otherside - I don’t know why are guys are soooo anti-Darnold that even when the brass says they want to give him a sink or swim opportunity under the new watch - you treat it like treachery of highest order.

Fields and Wilson is a breath of fresh air - but if the Staff says “let’s try this first while we retool the roster, I think we can win with Sam” - well, D’alrighty then. Let’s see Rob and Mike can.
If they can make Sam work - holy sh*t, what can’t these guys do? 


Probably because the org has employed poor QB evaluators over the last 50+ consecutive years, and we no longer want to have to worry about that being an issue? 

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23 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

I’m ok with this if that QB is Fields.  I just think Darnold and Wilson bring the exact same thing for the Offensive system the Jets are gonna run so why do that.  If you want a QB reset I understand but it has to be Fields IMO what he brings you can’t find very often, and if you can some how package Darnold and pick 23 to move up to draft one of the 4 pass catchers that will go early in this draft more specifically Waddle would be ideal.  Could you imagine adding a 4.4 play making QB whose best trait throwing is his electric deep ball accuracy and pairing him with a guy like Waddle could give the Jets a Mahomes to Hill type of connection.

First of all. Wilson is flat out a better prospect than Sam. Faster release, better arm, better accuracy better decision making. Second the tape (which I actually think for Fields is not all that great) is only about half of the player evaluation. Wilson is crushing Fields in these areas. There is a reason he is dropping.

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6 hours ago, football guy said:

SF got 2 second-round picks after they benched Alex Smith for Colin Kaepernick

Alex Smith had strung together multiple quality seasons prior to that.

I’ll take the 2nd or 3rd now rather than gamble on the extremely low chance of getting two 2nds later.

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Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

Alex Smith had strung together multiple quality seasons prior to that.

I’ll take the 2nd or 3rd now rather than gamble on the extremely low chance of getting two 2nds later.

Alex also strung together 6 awful seasons prior to stringing together 1.5 seasons of efficient play... 

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26 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

Yeah that’s the other argument if you think Sam is terrible and unfixable why are you saying we can’t get another great QB prospect next year and without trading up.  If they are arguing he is mediocre then that would fly more, but not many if any are declaring him mediocre it’s either he is terrible or he is good or fixable.

So I guess I’m saying the real argument should come from people who think he is mediocre and the Jets can’t win with him but won’t be bad enough to get another high pick to get a QB next year.

Also to all the guys clamoring what if another prospect doesn’t come along as good as Wilson I call BS because that’s all every drafted QB is a prospect nothing more nothing less this year next it’s equally a crap shoot.

sam won 2, well lets say 3 cause the raider game should have been a win.

its not crazy to think that sam could still suck like last year but with a better coach making better calls could win 5-6 games. 5 wins this year would put us between 7-9. 6 wins ... 10-12...  your gonna have to trade up if were end up there.

your right about QBs being a crap shoot. but wouldnt you want to take that shot with 6 QBs?

how many 1st rd QBs are coming out next year? we dont know. we could have 3, or even 1 QB. 

 

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2 minutes ago, football guy said:

Alex also strung together 6 awful seasons prior to stringing together 1.5 seasons of efficient play... 

Eh. Bad but not awful.  From 2009-10 he put up 32 TDs to 22 INTs with 60 % completions.  

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1 hour ago, sourceworx said:

Or that's just what they're saying to find a sucker who will offer them a high a draft pick for him.

Huh. I had you pegged for one of the JN’ers on the level. Not the kind that thinks it’s that easy to fool billion dollar teams while us MB posters figured it out no probs. 

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1 hour ago, Lupz27 said:

Yeah that’s the other argument if you think Sam is terrible and unfixable why are you saying we can’t get another great QB prospect next year and without trading up.  If they are arguing he is mediocre then that would fly more, but not many if any are declaring him mediocre it’s either he is terrible or he is good or fixable.

So I guess I’m saying the real argument should come from people who think he is mediocre and the Jets can’t win with him but won’t be bad enough to get another high pick to get a QB next year.

Also to all the guys clamoring what if another prospect doesn’t come along as good as Wilson I call BS because that’s all every drafted QB is a prospect nothing more nothing less this year next it’s equally a crap shoot.

I’ll ask you this, since I don’t believe there will be a great prospect next year.

Do you believe in Sam Howell, Kedon Slovis, JT Daniels, or Matt Corral enough to potentially trade up for them next year?  Those are the names, as of today, that are expected to take jumps and be drafted in the first round next year (based on need, not necessarily talent).

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1 hour ago, football guy said:

Never understood starting any of them day 1. Darnold I was most comfortable with, but I saw no reason to force him in the lineup either. Should’ve started McCown first 4-6 games.

With everyone learning a new playbook this is the best possible year to start a rookie Qb. Let the team learn and gel together. It might be rough early on but poay benefits later

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1 hour ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

People on the keep Sam bandwagon are ignoring the financial aspects of this move.  Wilson comes in with 4 years on a rookie deal with a 5th year option.  The Jets wasted Darnold's rookie deal.  If the Jets exercise Darnold's 5th year option, they have to decide by early May and pay him the average of the top 10 QBs in the NF in 2022, which is above $30 million a season.  If they don't exercise the 5th year option and then don't want to lose him  after 2021, they have to either sign him long term or franchise him.  The franchise tag for QBs in 2022 will be $35 million or so.  So, would you rather have Wilson for $6 million in 2021 going up in $2 million increments to $12 million in 2025 or Darnold at $50  million plus for  2021-2022.  For me, this makes Wilson a no-brainer when you also factor in that the Jets may not draft this high again for a long time. 

No one on planet earth even those crazy, insane Darnold peeps are ignorant of the financial aspect. If those crazy loons in the Jets front office were insane enough to pick up Darnold's 5th year option, that means Darnold will reportedly average 14 million a year over the next two years. 

Zach Wison's rookie contract, picking second in the draft will average approximately 8.5M a year over the next four years. For those first two years, (2021, 2022)  drafting Zach is a net saving of 5.5M a year over keeping Darnold.


Even if aliens invade and take over Joe Douglas's brain forcing him to give Darnold a second contract then yes, year three and four of a Zach contract on 8.5M a year could save you 31.5 Million a year  for those final two years of his contract compared to  Darnold suddenly weirdly balling out and commanding a $40 million year contract. 

Is that the whole story? Of course not.

Going with Darnold means you get a choice of blue chip prospects Penei Sewell, Ja'Marr Chase or Kyle Pitts. or you trade down and get Slater and possible multiple picks.

But who needs a more complete NFL roster ? It's all about the quarterback right ? If you don't have a quarterback you have nothing, right?  

Zack will fix everything along with a little help from those Jamal Adams picks ? Maybe ...

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34 minutes ago, football guy said:

Alex also strung together 6 awful seasons prior to stringing together 1.5 seasons of efficient play... 

I’m not sure smith was ever as bad as Sam was last year. 

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5 hours ago, johnnysd said:

Wilson has NO "red" flags at all. He has a physical to go through to make sure the shoulder is fine, but his labrum was super minor and no one expects it to be an issue. Brees played 15 years on a significantly one with a major shoulder separation.

 

Thanks. That made me laugh out loud.

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