Zach Wilson: My Scouting

[Chrebetfan80]

On 4/8/2021 at 12:56 PM, JiF said:

I think fans get hung up in the "experts" opinions, despite the overwhelming evidence of how often they're wrong.  And then when that opinion fits their narrative, they just take it to the extreme and dont let go ie; Fields slow processor vs Watson MPH.  You even admitted to falling victim of the MPH sh*t.  It's understandable and obviously Sims (along with others) stance on Wilson is feeding the extreme reactions.  As he did last the year he said "Mahomes was the most intriguing" and rated Trubisky QB1.  He said in an interview this year, after making the Wilson QB1 take, that gun to head he'd take Lawrence #1 overall if he was a GM.  All that said, I get it and have been guilty too.

In 18, I bought into Rosen being the "processor" and bought into Darnold being the "special" talent even though I was the guy fighting the crowd who wanted to pass on QB's in 17 for the 18 class.  I hate/d Mayfield but even him, found myself in a spot where I could accept the pick.  Then we landed Sam and the off schedule stuff is ridiculous, so I just hoped he could develop and obviously wanted it as a fan, I overlooked all the obvious flaws with his fundamentals.  Well, now I'm really scared we're about to do it again.  There are so many similarities it's crazy.  Yes, Wilson's arm talent and accuracy is better, for sure but all the other stuff...whoa...terrifying but guess what, I'll probably convince myself on him too because I desperately want to be wrong.  lol

 

all completely legitimate concerns about his penchant for off platform throws.  The one caveat to this that gives me relief is my knowledge from working with QB's for years, and with working with top end QB evaluators/trainers that footwork is by far the easiest thing to fix in regards to QB play.  Now some of the off platform stuff is always going to be in his game, thats just kind of who he is as a player, he's a bit of a gunslinger and a bit of a do anything to get a throw out there (I dont think he's as much mahommes in this regard as he is more like rodgers,  Ive said that since the first time I saw him that his game to me was more rodgers than anything).   

I agree there are legit concerns over it, but I do think if you get him moving outside of the pocket, and work on his lower body mechanics you  will alleviate a lot of those concerns.  Whats extremely impressive is even with these issues, he still gets extremely impressive velocity on his throws.  Just by virtue of synching up his lower-body and torso rotation we should see an uptick in velocity even further as he refines this aspect of his game. 

[JustInFudge]

20 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

all completely legitimate concerns about his penchant for off platform throws.  The one caveat to this that gives me relief is my knowledge from working with QB's for years, and with working with top end QB evaluators/trainers that footwork is by far the easiest thing to fix in regards to QB play.  Now some of the off platform stuff is always going to be in his game, thats just kind of who he is as a player, he's a bit of a gunslinger and a bit of a do anything to get a throw out there (I dont think he's as much mahommes in this regard as he is more like rodgers,  Ive said that since the first time I saw him that his game to me was more rodgers than anything).   

I agree there are legit concerns over it, but I do think if you get him moving outside of the pocket, and work on his lower body mechanics you  will alleviate a lot of those concerns.  Whats extremely impressive is even with these issues, he still gets extremely impressive velocity on his throws.  Just by virtue of synching up his lower-body and torso rotation we should see an uptick in velocity even further as he refines this aspect of his game. 

Fair enough but I think the issue is it creates a lot of bad habits and if they're throwing him to the wolves, I'm highly concerned.  The drifting, the bailing on pockets, the sloppy footwork, leaving his feet to throw, etc.  It all comes out because of his extreme confidence in his arm and the arrogance in his play and it's just a little nerve racking when everything is 10x the speed in the NFL.  I've steady maintained, I'm not saying Zachapono cant overcome his issues  and become a good pro.  He has some natural arm talent that is truly impressive.  I just wouldnt bet my career on it and I find him to be a terrifying pick at #2 overall.  That said, trading Sam has alleviated some of that concern because at this point, it is what it is.  I might disagree with the pick but not the logic and you just have to hope they can develop him.  I just really hope they get a bridge QB in the building because I dont like the idea of throwing him to the wolves week 1.

[Chrebetfan80]

16 minutes ago, JiF said:

Fair enough but I think the issue is it creates a lot of bad habits and if they're throwing him to the wolves, I'm highly concerned.  The drifting, the bailing on pockets, the sloppy footwork, leaving his feet to throw, etc.  It all comes out because of his extreme confidence in his arm and the arrogance in his play and it's just a little nerve racking when everything is 10x the speed in the NFL.  I've steady maintained, I'm not saying Zachapono cant overcome his issues  and become a good pro.  He has some natural arm talent that is truly impressive.  I just wouldnt bet my career on it and I find him to be a terrifying pick at #2 overall.  That said, trading Sam has alleviated some of that concern because at this point, it is what it is.  I might disagree with the pick but not the logic and you just have to hope they can develop him.  I just really hope they get a bridge QB in the building because I dont like the idea of throwing him to the wolves week 1.

I dont love the idea of throwing any QB to the wolves week 1.. But thats just me, because overall, the mechanics of playign the position at the NFL level are often very different than the mechanics of playing it at the collegiate level.  It takes time to refine those, and every player learns it at a different pace. 

I will say again, footwork is the easiest of the bad traits to fix, and couple that with not having to refine his throwing motion makes it an easier undertaking than other projects.  Knapp also I very good at QB footwork drilling and will be on top of him in this regard I'm sure. 

I think you are correct in being worried since we literally just had a QB that had issues with this same thing, but Sam's issue was it was never harped on in practice AT ALL (despite jordan palmer presenting a footwork plan to the jets and pleading with them to keep up with it).  I think that iwll change a lot with better coaching here.  Look he's a little bit of that kind of player so every once in a while youre going to get one of those throws where youre like "what the hell was that". but I think over time with the style of offense and coaching that we have in place now, its slightly less of a risk than it would be other times.  Again, footwork is more correctable than many other bad habits, so to me while every bad habit represents a risk, its a risk a GM would look at as acceptable I believe. 

[Jets Voice of Reason]

1 hour ago, JiF said:

Fair enough but I think the issue is it creates a lot of bad habits and if they're throwing him to the wolves, I'm highly concerned.  The drifting, the bailing on pockets, the sloppy footwork, leaving his feet to throw, etc.  It all comes out because of his extreme confidence in his arm and the arrogance in his play and it's just a little nerve racking when everything is 10x the speed in the NFL.  I've steady maintained, I'm not saying Zachapono cant overcome his issues  and become a good pro.  He has some natural arm talent that is truly impressive.  I just wouldnt bet my career on it and I find him to be a terrifying pick at #2 overall.  That said, trading Sam has alleviated some of that concern because at this point, it is what it is.  I might disagree with the pick but not the logic and you just have to hope they can develop him.  I just really hope they get a bridge QB in the building because I dont like the idea of throwing him to the wolves week 1.

Part of this implies that the coaching staff actually figures out a way to be good teachers. Low-key look at the comments JD made about being "great teachers" with Saleh and his staff and the "leader of men" component that was obviously missing with Gase. It matters a lot and I feel like the Jets never evolved since they took away 2-a-days.

I still think Sam still skates by with too little responsibility for not figuring things out better, but it's also clear that not having a real QB coach is just malpractice on the Jets's part. @Chrebetfan80 said it well, footwork is coachable. Was inexcusable for both Sam and the staff to keep having such poor footwork in year 3.

[win4ever]

6 hours ago, Maxman said:

Hey I feel the need to address the first part. I have never held back an editorial that was critical of the Jets in anyway. If it is fair, that is all we ask. I know what you are doing will be fair, so there is no problem running an opinion article saying that Zach Wilson isn't the guy.

The reason I mentioned being concerned about running these is because you told me this was a 17 part series.  That is different than an editorial or two saying Zach's film isn't great for whatever reason.

A 17 part series, when I am not able to create much content otherwise right now due to a busy work schedule, that would be a concern. Every day a new article saying the guy sucks, when I am not putting out any other content, that is too much.

Always liked your film reviews and I respect your opinion. We just couldn't do a 17 part series on the topic. And honestly that would be the same answer if you raved about the guy.  That is all, thanks.

Yeah, I didn't mean it like stifling conversation or anything.  I think the only reason I mentioned it was because in the other QB thread, mentioned that I was posting it here, figured might as well address it as to why it's on some random blog.  I understand not wanting a series that leans away from Wilson because he kinda looks like the pick right now.  I haven't even posted it on the main board lol.  

 

[Chrebetfan80]

4 hours ago, Jets Voice of Reason said:

Part of this implies that the coaching staff actually figures out a way to be good teachers. Low-key look at the comments JD made about being "great teachers" with Saleh and his staff and the "leader of men" component that was obviously missing with Gase. It matters a lot and I feel like the Jets never evolved since they took away 2-a-days.

I still think Sam still skates by with too little responsibility for not figuring things out better, but it's also clear that not having a real QB coach is just malpractice on the Jets's part. @Chrebetfan80 said it well, footwork is coachable. Was inexcusable for both Sam and the staff to keep having such poor footwork in year 3.

It was even more egregious when you take into account there was a plan laid out for them to correct it and it was ignored.  

I wont try to convince anyone that Gase is actually a very very smart offensive coach even though if you watch the all 22 and talk to people that understand his offensive thought process, he is indeed very smart... The issue was he was inflexible, pigheaded, and lacked a pure vision for what he wanted.  That led to only trying to mentally prepare Sam for the rigors his offense demanded (rigors unfitting of a QB in Sams stage of development) and not physically prepare him when anyone coming out saw how impacted his throws were by his absolutely poor mechanics.  His poor footwork consistently led to his down the field accuracy issues, and also his velocity on intermediate throws.   Now if he fixes all of that In carolina is he a pro bowler?  Idk because his processing of the field both pre and post snap were an absolute mess.  If i had to guess?  He plays much better with a simplified system and reads (in an offense similar to what we had under bates where sam got better as the season progressed). But I think Sam will always give you those head scratching moments.. Thats the type of player he is.. he's going to do well there but also throw 15 ints+ a year (my opinion). 

Footwork though is absolutely correctable and something I think the Jets will harp on with Wilson as they slowly bring him along.  Id be surprised if there were many games where wilson was over 25 passing attempts, I think they're going to run the ball, support him with easy reads and roll outs, and build this kid the right way.  If they do his pure arm talent and athleticism will absolutely shine i believe. 

[win4ever]

6 hours ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

all completely legitimate concerns about his penchant for off platform throws.  The one caveat to this that gives me relief is my knowledge from working with QB's for years, and with working with top end QB evaluators/trainers that footwork is by far the easiest thing to fix in regards to QB play.  Now some of the off platform stuff is always going to be in his game, thats just kind of who he is as a player, he's a bit of a gunslinger and a bit of a do anything to get a throw out there (I dont think he's as much mahommes in this regard as he is more like rodgers,  Ive said that since the first time I saw him that his game to me was more rodgers than anything).   

I agree there are legit concerns over it, but I do think if you get him moving outside of the pocket, and work on his lower body mechanics you  will alleviate a lot of those concerns.  Whats extremely impressive is even with these issues, he still gets extremely impressive velocity on his throws.  Just by virtue of synching up his lower-body and torso rotation we should see an uptick in velocity even further as he refines this aspect of his game. 

I'll say one thing that I was extremely impressed by, he gets velocity on a ball rolling to his left and throwing an out route without planting his foot.  It was like a regular out route, but I don't think I've ever seen a college prospect do that where he basically created all the torque from his hips.  The throw was a normal one, but doing it from that platform was unbelievable.  

The issue I had was, there wasn't really any reason to do so.  I see a bunch of throws where he's throwing off-platform when he has enough space to plant his foot perfectly down.  He's nowhere near as impressive, when he does it under pressure, which defeats the purpose at times.  I love that he CAN do it, and it's all about building blocks and tools.  However, I see him use it in situations where it's not as needed.  

I think I said it a few times.  On pure arm talent, velocity, ball placement, accuracy, etc he's QB1 in this class.  No one makes those "Ok, damn he made that" throws like him.  My concern really is everything else.  I find the competition to be a major issue, his recklessness and lack of processing this year.  And that's before we worry about his shoulder history as well.   

[win4ever]

6 hours ago, JiF said:

Fair enough but I think the issue is it creates a lot of bad habits and if they're throwing him to the wolves, I'm highly concerned.  The drifting, the bailing on pockets, the sloppy footwork, leaving his feet to throw, etc.  It all comes out because of his extreme confidence in his arm and the arrogance in his play and it's just a little nerve racking when everything is 10x the speed in the NFL.  I've steady maintained, I'm not saying Zachapono cant overcome his issues  and become a good pro.  He has some natural arm talent that is truly impressive.  I just wouldnt bet my career on it and I find him to be a terrifying pick at #2 overall.  That said, trading Sam has alleviated some of that concern because at this point, it is what it is.  I might disagree with the pick but not the logic and you just have to hope they can develop him.  I just really hope they get a bridge QB in the building because I dont like the idea of throwing him to the wolves week 1.

Yeah, I think he has amazing potential, but far too many risks.  I have my comp at Jordan Love with Ryan Fitzpatrick level confidence.  5 plays a game, where you see that potential and go "That's my guy".  But all the other times, you worry about him.  I worry about his transition to the NFL, especially because it doesn't even look like we're going to have anyone offer competition.  I mean we can sign some random veteran, but that's basically just clipboard holding.  

If this was last year, sitting at 11, I could see it.  Too much to trade up, wait for him to drop, fall in love with potential and go from there.  This year, Fields is a better option, especially at 2.  Having that kind of athleticism with throwing accuracy sets a nice floor, while not really giving up anything in terms of ceiling.  

[Chrebetfan80]

11 minutes ago, win4ever said:

I'll say one thing that I was extremely impressed by, he gets velocity on a ball rolling to his left and throwing an out route without planting his foot.  It was like a regular out route, but I don't think I've ever seen a college prospect do that where he basically created all the torque from his hips.  The throw was a normal one, but doing it from that platform was unbelievable.  

The issue I had was, there wasn't really any reason to do so.  I see a bunch of throws where he's throwing off-platform when he has enough space to plant his foot perfectly down.  He's nowhere near as impressive, when he does it under pressure, which defeats the purpose at times.  I love that he CAN do it, and it's all about building blocks and tools.  However, I see him use it in situations where it's not as needed.  

I think I said it a few times.  On pure arm talent, velocity, ball placement, accuracy, etc he's QB1 in this class.  No one makes those "Ok, damn he made that" throws like him.  My concern really is everything else.  I find the competition to be a major issue, his recklessness and lack of processing this year.  And that's before we worry about his shoulder history as well.   

Bio-mechanically speaking, and from a QB training standpoint generating the torque from his hips and by dissociation of the hips and the core is where you want to generate the velocity for throws from.  What is impressive is that, as you pointed out, he does that as good if not better than anyone from an off platform throw.   Again, footwork is extremely correctable, and I believe it is very feasibly to surmise that he will more consistently throw from a solid platform as he is coached up to do so than rather not.  Again, it would be fair to say that he will always have that in his game at times, and there will be plenty of times where he'll make a throw off platform and we'll all be like "why dude?"  but thats part of his playing style.. he's a little bit of a gunslinger in that mold and I dont think you can ever fully break some of those habits.

All your concerns are fair,  I wont poo poo those too much.  I think it comes down to what you are comfortable drafting and what fits best with the style of offense you want to employ. Coaching will obviously play a huge role in this too which is why I feel more comfortable with Wilsons lower body mechanics as I know those will be heavily harped on to get corrected.  

 

[win4ever]

20 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

Bio-mechanically speaking, and from a QB training standpoint generating the torque from his hips and by dissociation of the hips and the core is where you want to generate the velocity for throws from.  What is impressive is that, as you pointed out, he does that as good if not better than anyone from an off platform throw.   Again, footwork is extremely correctable, and I believe it is very feasibly to surmise that he will more consistently throw from a solid platform as he is coached up to do so than rather not.  Again, it would be fair to say that he will always have that in his game at times, and there will be plenty of times where he'll make a throw off platform and we'll all be like "why dude?"  but thats part of his playing style.. he's a little bit of a gunslinger in that mold and I dont think you can ever fully break some of those habits.

All your concerns are fair,  I wont poo poo those too much.  I think it comes down to what you are comfortable drafting and what fits best with the style of offense you want to employ. Coaching will obviously play a huge role in this too which is why I feel more comfortable with Wilsons lower body mechanics as I know those will be heavily harped on to get corrected.  

 

Yeah, his ability to create velocity, especially rolling to the left is impressive without the footwork.  I really hope Saleh or the offensive side actually have a plan on developing him because Gase seemed like he just didn't care.  I think there was some serious control issues with Gase, as evidenced by him secretly taking over play call duties after he supposedly gave it up.  Like he had this secret plan, but couldn't share it, so others might steal it or something.  I remember breaking down his Miami film and thinking he was going to be good because the play designs were fine.  He just didn't make it any easier to develop a QB to understand the plays.  

My overall contention is I think Fields is a better prospect than Wilson.  I don't think Fields needs nearly as much work, and the upside if both reach their ceiling is very similar (MVP caliber guys).  I think his style also fits better in this offense.   But once we draft him, I'm all Zach Wilson and dreaming on those highlight reel throws.  

I could be completely wrong in what I'm seeing, lol.  

[win4ever]

Interception/Possible Interceptions:  https://jetsfilmreview.com/2021/04/12/zach-wilson-interceptions-possible-interceptions/

Concerns Under Pressure:  https://jetsfilmreview.com/2021/04/12/zach-wilson-concerns-under-pressure/

Explain This Defense: https://jetsfilmreview.com/2021/04/12/zach-wilson-explain-this-defense/

I think this concludes the 2020 one, unless people specifically want a "Bad Reads" ones that I haven't written yet.  Going to focus on 2019 this weekend if I get the time.  

[Maxman]

3 hours ago, win4ever said:

Yeah, I didn't mean it like stifling conversation or anything.  I think the only reason I mentioned it was because in the other QB thread, mentioned that I was posting it here, figured might as well address it as to why it's on some random blog.  I understand not wanting a series that leans away from Wilson because he kinda looks like the pick right now.  I haven't even posted it on the main board lol.  

 

Thanks. I just wanted to clarify.  I appreciate you taking the time to put all this together, good stuff.

[Chrebetfan80]

10 hours ago, win4ever said:

Yeah, his ability to create velocity, especially rolling to the left is impressive without the footwork.  I really hope Saleh or the offensive side actually have a plan on developing him because Gase seemed like he just didn't care.  I think there was some serious control issues with Gase, as evidenced by him secretly taking over play call duties after he supposedly gave it up.  Like he had this secret plan, but couldn't share it, so others might steal it or something.  I remember breaking down his Miami film and thinking he was going to be good because the play designs were fine.  He just didn't make it any easier to develop a QB to understand the plays.  

My overall contention is I think Fields is a better prospect than Wilson.  I don't think Fields needs nearly as much work, and the upside if both reach their ceiling is very similar (MVP caliber guys).  I think his style also fits better in this offense.   But once we draft him, I'm all Zach Wilson and dreaming on those highlight reel throws.  

I could be completely wrong in what I'm seeing, lol.  

Gase just was too focused on mentally developing Sam since the amount of responsibility pre and post snap was a lot.  Great offense for a guy like Peyton, or even if some how he was ever hooked up with Brady or Rodgers.. Which i get it "anyone would be great with a hall of fame QB" but its more about their high level of processing pre and post snap that would make them very successful in that system. Sam wasnt there yet so it all fell apart.  So that would be terrible for a guy like Wilson, and even a guy like Fields. 

Personally, I see Wilson as a better fit for this offense, I think i would say its a more natural fit where as Fields I think would be better served in an offense like buffalo with how they slowly brought a long Josh Allen.  If we had hired Dabol I probably would be more into Fields for this team.. The combination of having some designed QB runs early in his career with easy reads and inside zone playaction passing would fit him better.  I think the outside zone boots and roll outs with deep/intermediate passing will fit Wilsons skill set much better.  Thats my opinion though i fully understand if people disagree. 

[TheMo]

2 hours ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

Gase just was too focused on mentally developing Sam since the amount of responsibility pre and post snap was a lot.  Great offense for a guy like Peyton, or even if some how he was ever hooked up with Brady or Rodgers.. Which i get it "anyone would be great with a hall of fame QB" but its more about their high level of processing pre and post snap that would make them very successful in that system. Sam wasnt there yet so it all fell apart.  So that would be terrible for a guy like Wilson, and even a guy like Fields. 

Personally, I see Wilson as a better fit for this offense, I think i would say its a more natural fit where as Fields I think would be better served in an offense like buffalo with how they slowly brought a long Josh Allen.  If we had hired Dabol I probably would be more into Fields for this team.. The combination of having some designed QB runs early in his career with easy reads and inside zone playaction passing would fit him better.  I think the outside zone boots and roll outs with deep/intermediate passing will fit Wilsons skill set much better.  Thats my opinion though i fully understand if people disagree. 

Thank you for actually having a conversation. It’s quite refreshing in these parts lately. My concern when it comes to competition is this. It might all be a wash for the most part except when it comes to him vs dlineman. All of sudden what’s it going to be like when he has a lineman 2-3 feet closer while trying to make that off platform throw. It’s why I didn’t like him not running live. The competition level is why I have Fields ahead of him. Plus I think he did a lot of things Wilson does but in a different system. Wilson is dominoes kind of analysis. If those back pedals start turning into sacks and throw aways his whole profile begins to crumble. That is my concern when the competition levels up significantly. 

[JustInFudge]

20 hours ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

I dont love the idea of throwing any QB to the wolves week 1.. But thats just me, because overall, the mechanics of playign the position at the NFL level are often very different than the mechanics of playing it at the collegiate level.  It takes time to refine those, and every player learns it at a different pace. 

I will say again, footwork is the easiest of the bad traits to fix, and couple that with not having to refine his throwing motion makes it an easier undertaking than other projects.  Knapp also I very good at QB footwork drilling and will be on top of him in this regard I'm sure. 

I think you are correct in being worried since we literally just had a QB that had issues with this same thing, but Sam's issue was it was never harped on in practice AT ALL (despite jordan palmer presenting a footwork plan to the jets and pleading with them to keep up with it).  I think that iwll change a lot with better coaching here.  Look he's a little bit of that kind of player so every once in a while youre going to get one of those throws where youre like "what the hell was that". but I think over time with the style of offense and coaching that we have in place now, its slightly less of a risk than it would be other times.  Again, footwork is more correctable than many other bad habits, so to me while every bad habit represents a risk, its a risk a GM would look at as acceptable I believe. 

Fair enough, I'm just not so sure guys like them who are so reliant on improvisation and such school yard types really ever do overcome it.  Favre was still guilty of it late into his career.  I think a lot of the school yard gun slingers do it unconsciously because that's their DNA.  It's not like he hasnt been getting coaching for years not just at BYU but personal coaching as well.  He has, for sure and I doubt they're teaching him to have poor mechanics. 

I just think it all's systematic, feet are wrong often because he bails so much and then fundamentals go out the window.  When he bails, leaves his feet, heel clicks, keep the ball below his waist, throw's across the middle of the field, off target, etc....it's all connected, IMO.  Again, I doubt his coaches are teaching him poor mechanics.  I guess you're just hoping you can coach it out but there are numerous examples of it not clicking.  On the flip side, some dudes are just so uber talented they get away with it.   I dont see Wilson as that kind of talent but I cant speak to his mental make up, maybe he's capable of developing with further reinforcement.  I just think the Jets have their work cut out for them and the situation sucks.  I really hope they bring in a bridge QB and give him the year why they develop the roster.

[sec101row23]

3 hours ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

Gase just was too focused on mentally developing Sam since the amount of responsibility pre and post snap was a lot.  Great offense for a guy like Peyton, or even if some how he was ever hooked up with Brady or Rodgers.. Which i get it "anyone would be great with a hall of fame QB" but its more about their high level of processing pre and post snap that would make them very successful in that system. Sam wasnt there yet so it all fell apart.  So that would be terrible for a guy like Wilson, and even a guy like Fields. 

Personally, I see Wilson as a better fit for this offense, I think i would say its a more natural fit where as Fields I think would be better served in an offense like buffalo with how they slowly brought a long Josh Allen.  If we had hired Dabol I probably would be more into Fields for this team.. The combination of having some designed QB runs early in his career with easy reads and inside zone playaction passing would fit him better.  I think the outside zone boots and roll outs with deep/intermediate passing will fit Wilsons skill set much better.  Thats my opinion though i fully understand if people disagree. 

Totally agree.  I think Gase was just a miserable fit with a very young developing QB.  I don’t think he is good at teaching or coaching an offense to inexperienced QBs.  When you consider that Gase didn’t even have a QB coach for Sam, you really see the incompetence and arrogance on his part.  
 

Having talked to a lot of college coaches over the past decade or so, they will tell you how you teach and coach your philosophies varies from QB to QB.  There isn’t a one size fits all approach, kids learn and retain differently and knowing how to adjust your approach is critical.  Again, I think Gase was just a terrible teacher of his offense.  
 

The biggest task this new staff has is teaching and developing this rookie QB, let’s hope this staff is much better than what we have seen in past few seasons.  

[section314]

8 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

Totally agree.  I think Gase was just a miserable fit with a very young developing QB.  I don’t think he is good at teaching or coaching an offense to inexperienced QBs.  When you consider that Gase didn’t even have a QB coach for Sam, you really see the incompetence and arrogance on his part.  
 

Having talked to a lot of college coaches over the past decade or so, they will tell you how you teach and coach your philosophies varies from QB to QB.  There isn’t a one size fits all approach, kids learn and retain differently and knowing how to adjust your approach is critical.  Again, I think Gase was just a terrible teacher of his offense.  
 

The biggest task this new staff has is teaching and developing this rookie QB, let’s hope this staff is much better than what we have seen in past few seasons.  

Agree with this. One interesting thing. I read an article months ago about how Tanneyhill was praising Gase for helping him become a better QB. It had nothing to do with mechanics, any of that kind of stuff. Was entirely about all the pre-snap stuff, the concept of plays and the offense, etc. It was all preparation based, and Tanneyhill said it was almost at the end of his first year with the Titans that it all kicked in. He basically said that Gase prepared him from the neck up to play the position. Found it very interesting.

[Chrebetfan80]

39 minutes ago, TheMo said:

Thank you for actually having a conversation. It’s quite refreshing in these parts lately. My concern when it comes to competition is this. It might all be a wash for the most part except when it comes to him vs dlineman. All of sudden what’s it going to be like when he has a lineman 2-3 feet closer while trying to make that off platform throw. It’s why I didn’t like him not running live. The competition level is why I have Fields ahead of him. Plus I think he did a lot of things Wilson does but in a different system. Wilson is dominoes kind of analysis. If those back pedals start turning into sacks and throw aways his whole profile begins to crumble. That is my concern when the competition levels up significantly. 

Fine concerns... I can understand where people put that on their list of traits they want in players, guys who play only top flight competition.  I think theres definitely merrit in the fact that he played against lesser competition than others in this draft so i wont say youre wrong, I just put less into that than maybe other evaluators. 

To me if we're going to weight the competition so heavily then we'd have to give mac jones a big bump, or kyle trask a big bump considering they play all SEC talent this year and dominated.  I just think its hard to quantify to what extent it makes up how the prospect will translate to the next level.  Sure absolutely I think the point has merrit, and I think its certainly something you must consider when projecting players.  

The one thing i have a lot of faith in is this coaching staffs ability to develop players.. Just be virtue of things ive heard and people I've talked to you get a sense that they have some really great teachers on this staff so I've looked at that and said "ok yes Wilson has footwork issues, but i feel they are correctable and this staff + the style of offense should alleviate a lot of those issues". Again this is my take on it. 

[Chrebetfan80]

1 hour ago, JiF said:

Fair enough, I'm just not so sure guys like them who are so reliant on improvisation and such school yard types really ever do overcome it.  Favre was still guilty of it late into his career.  I think a lot of the school yard gun slingers do it unconsciously because that's their DNA.  It's not like he hasnt been getting coaching for years not just at BYU but personal coaching as well.  He has, for sure and I doubt they're teaching him to have poor mechanics. 

I just think it all's systematic, feet are wrong often because he bails so much and then fundamentals go out the window.  When he bails, leaves his feet, heel clicks, keep the ball below his waist, throw's across the middle of the field, off target, etc....it's all connected, IMO.  Again, I doubt his coaches are teaching him poor mechanics.  I guess you're just hoping you can coach it out but there are numerous examples of it not clicking.  On the flip side, some dudes are just so uber talented they get away with it.   I dont see Wilson as that kind of talent but I cant speak to his mental make up, maybe he's capable of developing with further reinforcement.  I just think the Jets have their work cut out for them and the situation sucks.  I really hope they bring in a bridge QB and give him the year why they develop the roster.

I can understand why his tendancies to be a little bit of a school yard player can give people pause, but I think he plays under structure a little more than he's given credit for, but yes he does do a lot of things that to some may cause concern and unease when evaluating a QB.  

I would say again the structure of the offense will help a lot of these issues and from all accounts he's an extremely coachable kid.  Lafluer, Knapp and Calabrese will definitely be a good coaching staff to work with.. Knapp in particular is very good. Again you never know how these things iwll pan out, but if I'm a GM and I trust my coaching staff to develop players then I worry less about this since I do believe to a large extent his issues are correctable. 

[Chrebetfan80]

1 hour ago, sec101row23 said:

Totally agree.  I think Gase was just a miserable fit with a very young developing QB.  I don’t think he is good at teaching or coaching an offense to inexperienced QBs.  When you consider that Gase didn’t even have a QB coach for Sam, you really see the incompetence and arrogance on his part.  
 

Having talked to a lot of college coaches over the past decade or so, they will tell you how you teach and coach your philosophies varies from QB to QB.  There isn’t a one size fits all approach, kids learn and retain differently and knowing how to adjust your approach is critical.  Again, I think Gase was just a terrible teacher of his offense.  
 

The biggest task this new staff has is teaching and developing this rookie QB, let’s hope this staff is much better than what we have seen in past few seasons.  

this is correct... Having coached a lot of QB's myself and working with a lot of QB trainers for pro and collegiate players I can say that there may never be a similar program in place ever for getting a guy to get to the points you need him to be at. 

From just a pure coaching standpoint you have to re-evaluate how you do things yearly because players change season to season and what works one year may not work the next.  

As jets fans we're like jilted lovers where we take past traumas and project them onto new scenarios.  And its perfectly understandable considering the history of the franchise.  What I would say is that for the first time in a long time we are positioned to adequately coach a rookie qb and have not only a system that iwll make it easy for them to assimilate, but coaches that will harp on fundamentals and teach the game in the right way. 

[Philc1]

Look it’s Zach Wilson’s shoulder

 

[win4ever]

God, I hate the writing aspect about breaking down film.   Would anyone really care if I only breakdown Utah/Tenn/USC from 2019 for Wilson? Do people care about SD State game?  I think I'm at 20K words just for those 3 games lol.  Might have to post it in like 6 parts for each game.  

[JohnnyLV]

On 4/19/2021 at 11:13 PM, win4ever said:

God, I hate the writing aspect about breaking down film.   Would anyone really care if I only breakdown Utah/Tenn/USC from 2019 for Wilson? Do people care about SD State game?  I think I'm at 20K words just for those 3 games lol.  Might have to post it in like 6 parts for each game.  

I think the break downs are great, but maybe at this point the most useful thing might be an analysis of how the Jets will get him to succeed

[win4ever]

7 hours ago, johnnysd said:

I think the break downs are great, but maybe at this point the most useful thing might be an analysis of how the Jets will get him to succeed

 

7 hours ago, johnnysd said:

I think the break downs are great, but maybe at this point the most useful thing might be an analysis of how the Jets will get him to succeed

I just don't have the time to be honest.  Even now, I'm cutting out the SD State game, even though I wrote about 10 plays into it, but I just don't have time. I'll probably write up the scouting and post on Saturday. It would take too much time to break down the SF offense, and we don't even know which aspects are being installed.  It'd be a lot of work for mere speculation.  

I think Fields would fit much better into the system.  I really wanted to break down why Fields was better than Wilson but I can't take too much time away from family/work.

[The Crusher]

On 4/9/2021 at 1:08 PM, maury77 said:

@win4ever great post. I know the hours you put into it, but frankly, this is why I'm not around here as often anymore. I literally could have predicted every single response that has been made. 

@QB1 I've got a great Idea. Why don't you post some of your own all 22 video breakdown of Wilson (not highlights, not what Chris SImms said) and you can breakdown for us examples of Wilson refuting the videos that win4ever put together. 

Or that fat lazy mod can finally get around to banning QB1

[The Crusher]

On 4/10/2021 at 3:30 PM, nycdan said:

If we do pick Fields, there are a few members here who will probably spend some time on crystal meth and Jack Daniels.

Don’t knock it my cousin  Twitchy lost  30 pounds on that diet. 

[The Crusher]

On 4/15/2021 at 5:51 PM, Philc1 said:

Look it’s Zach Wilson’s shoulder

 

Oh Phil, U so cray cray 

[maury77]

59 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

Or that fat lazy mod can finally get around to banning QB1

Did that happen?

[The Crusher]

9 minutes ago, maury77 said:

Did that happen?

Yea finally. I was putting it off because busy eating. He actually came back as Nicoo so I killed that one too. I’m hungry, need a snack. 

[win4ever]

Finally Done with 2019 film and final scouting report.  I had to break them into different parts because they were too long, and I was worried about it loading correctly.  I'd love to hear feedback on the things mentioned in them.  I went in about 1/4 of the way into the San Diego State game, but I just don't have much free time to break it down in detail.  

Wilson vs. Utah (Part 1): https://jetsfilmreview.com/2021/04/24/zach-wilson-scouting-utah-2019-part-1/

Wilson vs. Utah (Part 2)https://jetsfilmreview.com/2021/04/24/zach-wilson-scouting-utah-2019-part-2/

 

Wilson vs. Tennessee (Part 1); https://jetsfilmreview.com/2021/04/24/zach-wilson-scouting-tennessee-2019-part-1/

Wilson vs. Tennessee (Part 2): https://jetsfilmreview.com/2021/04/24/zach-wilson-scouting-tennessee-2019-part-2/

Wilson vs. Tennessee (Part 3): https://jetsfilmreview.com/2021/04/24/zach-wilson-scouting-tennessee-2019-part-3/

 

Wilson vs. USC (Part 1): https://jetsfilmreview.com/2021/04/24/zach-wilson-scouting-usc-2019-part-1/

Wilson vs. USC (Part 2): https://jetsfilmreview.com/2021/04/24/zach-wilson-scouting-usc-part-2/

Wilson vs, USC (Part 3): https://jetsfilmreview.com/2021/04/24/zach-wilson-scouting-usc-part-3/

 

Zach Wilson: Final Scouting Report Summary:  https://jetsfilmreview.com/2021/04/24/zach-wilson-scouting-report-summary/

[JohnnyLV]

1 hour ago, win4ever said:

Finally Done with 2019 film and final scouting report.  I had to break them into different parts because they were too long, and I was worried about it loading correctly.  I'd love to hear feedback on the things mentioned in them.  I went in about 1/4 of the way into the San Diego State game, but I just don't have much free time to break it down in detail.  

Wilson vs. Utah (Part 1): https://jetsfilmreview.com/2021/04/24/zach-wilson-scouting-utah-2019-part-1/

Wilson vs. Utah (Part 2)https://jetsfilmreview.com/2021/04/24/zach-wilson-scouting-utah-2019-part-2/

 

Wilson vs. Tennessee (Part 1); https://jetsfilmreview.com/2021/04/24/zach-wilson-scouting-tennessee-2019-part-1/

Wilson vs. Tennessee (Part 2): https://jetsfilmreview.com/2021/04/24/zach-wilson-scouting-tennessee-2019-part-2/

Wilson vs. Tennessee (Part 3): https://jetsfilmreview.com/2021/04/24/zach-wilson-scouting-tennessee-2019-part-3/

 

Wilson vs. USC (Part 1): https://jetsfilmreview.com/2021/04/24/zach-wilson-scouting-usc-2019-part-1/

Wilson vs. USC (Part 2): https://jetsfilmreview.com/2021/04/24/zach-wilson-scouting-usc-part-2/

Wilson vs, USC (Part 3): https://jetsfilmreview.com/2021/04/24/zach-wilson-scouting-usc-part-3/

 

Zach Wilson: Final Scouting Report Summary:  https://jetsfilmreview.com/2021/04/24/zach-wilson-scouting-report-summary/

Great write up. It's interesting that you essentially list him as the best in all the skills that track the best to the NFL, but just cannot get past the "level of competition" concern. I don't agree with it, nor really the progression concern as there are many examples where he goes through his reads well and seems like an easy adjustment in the NFL. On the other hand, the looking off defenders trait is not only advanced in Wilson it is rare in QB prospects. As an example Darnold never really possessed this trait not really ever learned it in the NFL. It is in my opinion one of the things that makes Zach a no brainer at #2.  Having this trait is not only a skill but shows an ability to recognize defensive structures and assignments. It is huge and glad you recognize it.

You had one statement that I wanted to present an alternative to you

Between 2020 and 2019, there are vast differences with Wilson.  He’s much more aggressive in 2020 than 2019, which begets the question if he derived that confidence from his level of skill or his level of competition?  

The answer to this question is actually neither of those, though the real reason certainly lead to more confidence. If you read the King write up of Wilson, the answer is that he worked extremely, maybe more correctly obsessively in developing both his QB skills, body and especially football knowledge even driving 800 miles each week to work out each weekend with Beck. His coach said he was obsessive about watching tape and would call him late at night and weekends to discuss it. His work ethic is another reason I feel he will be great.

In the end I am not worried about the level of competition at all. It's not like he had a very good season against his competition. He had the best ever season. And like Simms says "a throw is a throw"

[win4ever]

1 minute ago, johnnysd said:

Great write up. It's interesting that you essentially list him as the best in all the skills that track the best to the NFL, but just cannot get past the "level of competition" concern. I don't agree with it, nor really the progression concern as there are many examples where he goes through his reads well and seems like an easy adjustment in the NFL. On the other hand, the looking off defenders trait is not only advanced in Wilson it is rare in QB prospects. As an example Darnold never really possessed this trait not really ever learned it in the NFL. It is in my opinion one of the things that makes Zach a no brainer at #2.  Having this trait is not only a skill but shows an ability to recognize defensive structures and assignments. It is huge and glad you recognize it.

You had one statement that I wanted to present an alternative to you

Between 2020 and 2019, there are vast differences with Wilson.  He’s much more aggressive in 2020 than 2019, which begets the question if he derived that confidence from his level of skill or his level of competition?  

The answer to this question is actually neither of those, though the real reason certainly lead to more confidence. If you read the King write up of Wilson, the answer is that he worked extremely, maybe more correctly obsessively in developing both his QB skills, body and especially football knowledge even driving 800 miles each week to work out each weekend with Beck. His coach said he was obsessive about watching tape and would call him late at night and weekends to discuss it. His work ethic is another reason I feel he will be great.

In the end I am not worried about the level of competition at all. It's not like he had a very good season against his competition. He had the best ever season. And like Simms says "a throw is a throw"

Thanks.  

I agree with you in that, there are a LOT of things to love.  The ability to look off defenders is extremely valuable, but the issue is progression reads and being able to look off defenders have to co-exist and he doesn't do so.  He does one very well, both in 2019 and 2020, but his reads aren't that good in 2020.  What I noticed from 2020 to 2019 is that he's far less aggressive on the same reads with deep passes, because those teams have athletes that can match up with their receivers.  I think I pointed out one go-route where Wilson threw the ball when the receiver was 2 steps behind the defender running down the field, and yet he still threw it because he knew his guy was just better.  

I do think the competition makes a big difference though, because it lends itself to confidence.  This is a completely anecdotal experience, but I think of it like playing Madden on easy mode.  There are certain throws that I know will be open 90% of the times, which makes me take risks that I otherwise wouldn't take against even competition.  I haven't played in awhile, but just strictly talking psychology, the opponents strength plays into your confidence is risk.  Wilson shows supreme confidence in 2020, and that's really good, a QB needs confidence.  My issue is, what happens when those 90/10 balls turn to 40/60 balls?  Does he maintain his confidence?  Because I see the same confidence issues with Darnold/Geno where plays that were working in college doesn't work in the NFL and they turned confidence into doubt.  You can see in the 2019 film that he's far less aggressive down the field because he's making mistakes down the field.  If his aggression goes away, then so does the Mahomes/Rodgers track because those guys thrive because they go through the progressions well.   

However, I completely agree the trait to look off defenders is very rare, and he's the best at it in this class.  However, it's at the risk of progression reads, which is why I compared him to Fitzpatrick, because he had the exact same issue.  He would pre-determine a route from the start, and then do everything possible to set up that route.  When things are great and he reads the defense pre-snap, you have Fitzmagic.  When things aren't good and he doesn't make the right reads, you have Fitztragic.  

I really wish they had their regular schedule, because then it would been so much easier to scout him.  If he did this against 2019 level competition, then I would have no problem with the pick at all.  

Now if he works out the flaws and gets coached up, he'll be great, although I think that's true for a lot of guys.  For example, if Jordan Love learns to go through progressions better, he'd be a monster.  I think Fields is less risky, and fits the scheme better,  I really wanted to break down Fields as well, but just didn't have time.  

To be honest, I don't really buy into these pre-draft stories because they are all positive.  I remember some crap about Geno being a savant because he learned to paint at a young age or something.  How Darnold is unfazed by pressure because he's chill, etc.  

I'm not really saying Wilson sucks, just that I like Fields better.  Jordan Love with Fitzpatrick mental skills has potential to be a stud.  I just think Fields is a much safer bet.  But I could be wrong, lol.  I thought Darnold was safer than Allen and here we are lol.  Although I hate Tribusky as well.  Win some, lose some. 

[win4ever]

I did want to add @johnnysd, I appreciate the thoughtful reply where you are challenging the content.  I know we're on opposite sides as to who we want, but there's no guarantee I'm right, you're wrong or vice versa, so I really do appreciate the discussion.  

[JohnnyLV]

4 minutes ago, win4ever said:

Thanks.  

I agree with you in that, there are a LOT of things to love.  The ability to look off defenders is extremely valuable, but the issue is progression reads and being able to look off defenders have to co-exist and he doesn't do so.  He does one very well, both in 2019 and 2020, but his reads aren't that good in 2020.  What I noticed from 2020 to 2019 is that he's far less aggressive on the same reads with deep passes, because those teams have athletes that can match up with their receivers.  I think I pointed out one go-route where Wilson threw the ball when the receiver was 2 steps behind the defender running down the field, and yet he still threw it because he knew his guy was just better.  

I do think the competition makes a big difference though, because it lends itself to confidence.  This is a completely anecdotal experience, but I think of it like playing Madden on easy mode.  There are certain throws that I know will be open 90% of the times, which makes me take risks that I otherwise wouldn't take against even competition.  I haven't played in awhile, but just strictly talking psychology, the opponents strength plays into your confidence is risk.  Wilson shows supreme confidence in 2020, and that's really good, a QB needs confidence.  My issue is, what happens when those 90/10 balls turn to 40/60 balls?  Does he maintain his confidence?  Because I see the same confidence issues with Darnold/Geno where plays that were working in college doesn't work in the NFL and they turned confidence into doubt.  You can see in the 2019 film that he's far less aggressive down the field because he's making mistakes down the field.  If his aggression goes away, then so does the Mahomes/Rodgers track because those guys thrive because they go through the progressions well.   

However, I completely agree the trait to look off defenders is very rare, and he's the best at it in this class.  However, it's at the risk of progression reads, which is why I compared him to Fitzpatrick, because he had the exact same issue.  He would pre-determine a route from the start, and then do everything possible to set up that route.  When things are great and he reads the defense pre-snap, you have Fitzmagic.  When things aren't good and he doesn't make the right reads, you have Fitztragic.  

I really wish they had their regular schedule, because then it would been so much easier to scout him.  If he did this against 2019 level competition, then I would have no problem with the pick at all.  

Now if he works out the flaws and gets coached up, he'll be great, although I think that's true for a lot of guys.  For example, if Jordan Love learns to go through progressions better, he'd be a monster.  I think Fields is less risky, and fits the scheme better,  I really wanted to break down Fields as well, but just didn't have time.  

To be honest, I don't really buy into these pre-draft stories because they are all positive.  I remember some crap about Geno being a savant because he learned to paint at a young age or something.  How Darnold is unfazed by pressure because he's chill, etc.  

I'm not really saying Wilson sucks, just that I like Fields better.  Jordan Love with Fitzpatrick mental skills has potential to be a stud.  I just think Fields is a much safer bet.  But I could be wrong, lol.  I thought Darnold was safer than Allen and here we are lol.  Although I hate Tribusky as well.  Win some, lose some. 

Yeah I have said many times that its not so much that Wilson is good and Fields is bad but rather both are really good and it is a choice of who you think is better.

For me personally I have big issues with Fields though I recognize his athleticism. Obviously I am not privy to talking to him live or anything but I really don't like the way he comes across in interviews. In addition throwing out the throwing part of pro days, the one thing I noticed in the pro days is how the other players there were reacting to the QB. Alabama players LOVE Jones. Wilson's players seem to be at ease and very positive, smiling to Zach, but Fields was just aloof and alone. In this area, I thought Mills was pretty impressive he could be a hidden gem.

The other thing that bothers me about Fields is just sort of like "football awareness" People say he can't go through progressions and that is not true, Jeremiah says he can't commit to his second read, also not true. But I see a general "slowness" to his game. On his passes a lot of times there is like a little micro pause where it seems he needs to like double check before letting go. Darnold had this as well and I think it lead to a lot of his struggles.  Also his pocket awareness to me seems really mediocre at best. I think both of these will be really hard to overcome in the NFL.

In terms of the 90/10 -50/50 ball thing, JT in his videos keeps saying "dime or jump ball ?" but after watching him game after game after game throw the 90/10 ball as you mention I just sort of think he is just that good.

[JohnnyLV]

29 minutes ago, win4ever said:

I did want to add @johnnysd, I appreciate the thoughtful reply where you are challenging the content.  I know we're on opposite sides as to who we want, but there's no guarantee I'm right, you're wrong or vice versa, so I really do appreciate the discussion.  

As do I.