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Don't you wish you had more legitimate complaints about Joe Douglas?


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3 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

Sorry dude, this thinking just makes no sense....

So, you mean to tell me that it is better to take a guard at #23, even though this draft is deep with OL, if Kwity Paye fell somehow to 23?  
Mind-boggling.....truly.

 

I agree we better not see a defensive player till the 2nd round. The Jets have been going defense forever and still can't stop anyone. Especially in a league designed to score.  

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No more, "why couldn't he convince Joe Thuney to sign with the 2-14 Jets over the back-to-back AFC champs?"  Or, "remember that time he took a backup QB with the second of three fourth rounders?

Being miserable and treating the GM like dirt is every Jets fan’s god given right.

I’ve been in a seething rage since we drafted James Morgan (over that great nickel corner whose name I can’t spell on the Rams!!) my wife left me over it  

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4 hours ago, slats said:

While I also want to see the Jets build around their new QB, and definitely want an IOL by pick #34, I'm also perfectly okay with them improving the defense as well. It's a team game. It's not like the only players who help the QB play offense. A defense who can get off the field on third down or get a turnover gives the QB more chances. 

I don't think JD could ever please the all offense crowd. He went offense with his first two picks last year, and 5/9 overall (one being a punter), and will go offense (obviously) at #2 this year and -I strongly suspect- with at least one of his next two picks. Have to build a complete team, though. I liked that his first few FA pickups this year were a WR, and Edge, and a core special teamer. Tells me he's trying to build the whole team. 


Jets have 10 picks. Outside of the QB at #2, he has 4 more through rounds 1-3.  So...

JD could go like Jaelan Phillips at #23 and go OL at #34 and I' be fine with that.  Still has room for a TE-RB.  Shockingly may use one for CB too.

IMO...JD will pick players that represent a combination of best impact and positional need.  

So outside of the QB pick...

If some of these players are Pro-Bowl caliber or a notch below.  And most of the rest future starters or depth pieces...then JD is hitting on his picks like a competent GM should.  And he can pick'em as he sees fit.

Reality is...that this team won't be fixed in just this draft.  But it should be after the 2022 FA-Trade-Draft process.  Jets should be ready to roll by then.

JMO.

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4 hours ago, slats said:

No more, "why couldn't he convince Joe Thuney to sign with the 2-14 Jets over the back-to-back AFC champs?" 

Or, "remember that time he took a backup QB with the second of three fourth rounders? I'm still not over that!" 

Or, "I can't believe he's signing guys who might not even make the final roster. Why doesn't he sign eighty-five starters?" 

Don't worry, kids, your time is coming! 

With this draft, the Jets will be cemented as Joe Douglas' team, for better or worse. He's got his hand-picked head coach. And not just the only coach who would take his calls, but a highly sought after head coaching candidate. In a few weeks, he'll have his shiny new hand-picked QB as well. Imagine? No longer having to bitch about a QB taken at #125 because now you can bitch about one taken #2 overall! How much fun is that going to be?!?

Depending on any draft picks trades, over two years he will have added three first round picks, two seconds, four thirds and four fourths. Three years worth of top half picks over the course of two. His free agents, too, on his terms. 

The team was dog **** when he stepped into the building in June of 2019. He cut Maccagnan's second pick that year before the season. He dug up the grave of Ryan Kalil because he recognized that the OL was in terrible shape. But coming in after the prime free agency period and the draft, there was little he could do but self-scout and the results have been a significant purge and rebuild in pretty short order.

Everything isn't going to be fixed in this draft, but a lot of things should be in place by the time it's done. We talk about the endless rebuild here but if Joe Douglas does his job well in the draft, we shouldn't be talking about the rebuild continuing next offseason. We should be talking about filling the last few holes, and maybe someone like me who hates taking RBs too early can start entertaining that idea next year when they have two firsts and two seconds to spend. No one should be expecting playoffs this year, but we should expect a team that looks competent and competitive with far fewer holes than they had in June of 2019. A team poised to get back into the post-season. 

And you guys will have things far more substantial to talk about other than who they're talking to about their backup QB spot. Should be fun! 

this might be the best post i have seen you write in recent memory of many good ones. Unfortunately I think after the draft is done it is going to more of the same, all arguably and probably most likely good balanced picks that address multiple positions with more impact players at the top and a probably a trade back to get more lottery tickets in the back of the draft. 

Joe will be Joe and sure we will have some of that "how could have taken player x with the second draft pick of that round, what were you thinking" take from a few fans. 

Its crazy to think we will have a good plan and execution to get us back to contender in the league. Yeah probably not all fixed this draft but with all these picks I think we will be better than some other teams roster wise. Its damn near exciting to think about really.

Alot of ???? abotu how good everyone will produce and coach but damn these jets they sucked me back in

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49 minutes ago, David Harris said:

It appears to me that Joe Douglas will be the best GM we've ever had.  Yup, we won 2 games and just traded away our savior Sam Darnold after ruining him, yup we let Robby Anderson walk for nothing, whatever, this thing had to be stripped down to it's foundation and that process is almost complete but won't be until we get rid of the $16 million dead cap still left over from Mac - holy sh*t I can't believe we still have $16 mill dead cap this year!  That's another elite player or at least 2 very good players worth of cap room we'll have next off season.  It will take another year to get rid of CJ Mosely's crazy contract, we can cut him after 2022 for 3 mill dead cap hit.  So really it will be 2023 until this team is fully Joe Douglas's with every roster spot and every cap dollar being his.

We have a really healthy cap after this year.  Not a single overpriced aging veteran outside of Mosely (again Mac's fault).  

We will have a rookie contract QB with unlimited upside.

Tons of draft capital to support the rookie and build this team out.  Don't expect 2021 to be great, there are too many holes to fill in one off season and we have what I think will be an awesome new HC and offensive system that will need a little seasoning.

The cap is going to go up significantly after 2022.  We will retain our pillars of QW and Mekhi Becton and continue to add more.

We will be able to sign FA's with our healthy cap and a QB on a rookie deal.

The culture will change.  The SOJF's will wash off the soul grime we've been bathing in for 50 years.  

The practice facility is top notch.  New cutting edge medical staff.  Owner's stepping back.  JD stepping in with a clear plan.  New energetic, inspirational, and smart HC who is young and hungry.  New OC who is versed in the Shanahan system who also happens to be brothers with a great offensive mind.  The front office is built out with experienced and successful guys.  All of our position coaches are of the same mind, capable and going to be all gas, no brakes.

I really think the Jets are at a pivoting to respectability.  I think we are on the path to becoming a well respected, well run organization similar to the Ravens and Steelers. It's not going to all happen in 2021 but I think we are on the road to it.

Jim Carrey Chance GIF

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4 hours ago, peebag said:

2-14 isn't enough?

If that fell at his feet it would be.  It falls primarily on the guy before him who botched 5 straight draft classes.  Did you see @TeddEY's thread, by chance?  It's brutal.  Douglas could have tried to go on a spending spree like Maccagnan did his first year in New York, but he didn't because he has the long game approach in mind.  2-14 was better than 6-10 for this team.

But in 2021 and beyond, even I admit he'll be out of excuses.  Even with a rookie QB under center, this team needs to look good out there, with his first 2 draft classes leading the way.  Playoffs aren't my expectation in 2021, but highly competitive football and something in the 7-9 or 8-8 neighborhood is.  2022 - playoffs are the expectation for sure.

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4 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

Sorry dude, this thinking just makes no sense....

So, you mean to tell me that it is better to take a guard at #23, even though this draft is deep with OL, if Kwity Paye fell somehow to 23?  
Mind-boggling.....truly.

Unless a pretty special defensive talent falls to 23, my preference would be to trade down to a spot where we feel comfortable taking the IOL. 

And I'm very confident this is exactly what Douglas intends to do, also.  Much like last year, we didn't trade down from our first pick (# 11), but we DID trade down from our 2nd rounder.  Thus, since we're likely sticking at 2, I think there's an excellent chance we look to move down from 23 unless a guy we didn't expect to be there falls to us.

But, yes, if a solid defensive player falls to us at 23, I'm good with it, as long as we're using # 34 for offensive purposes.

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Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

Unless a pretty special defensive talent falls to 23, my preference would be to trade down to a spot where we feel comfortable taking the IOL.  

But, yes, if a solid defensive player falls to us at 23, I'm good with it, as long as we're using # 34 for offensive purposes.

LOTS of options.  If Kwity happened to fall to #23, you take him.  But there is a chance here to move down from #23 and #34, and STILL get some great picks on both OL and CB.  

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4 hours ago, slats said:

While I also want to see the Jets build around their new QB, and definitely want an IOL by pick #34, I'm also perfectly okay with them improving the defense as well. It's a team game. It's not like the only players who help the QB play offense. A defense who can get off the field on third down or get a turnover gives the QB more chances. 

I don't think JD could ever please the all offense crowd. He went offense with his first two picks last year, and 5/9 overall (one being a punter), and will go offense (obviously) at #2 this year and -I strongly suspect- with at least one of his next two picks. Have to build a complete team, though. I liked that his first few FA pickups this year were a WR, and Edge, and a core special teamer. Tells me he's trying to build the whole team. 

 

Too many people seem to separate "QB" and "offense" for some reason.  They think a QB can't function without X number of elite players around him, so "offense" doesn't really include the QB in a weird way.  You either need a "great offense" before you draft the QB, or you need to go absolutely ham on offense after you get your QB, devoting every possible resource to those other 10 spots on the field.

Meanwhile, it really works the other way around.  A competent QB will make this offense look very good, and some of our deficiencies will go away.  Even Flacco did that last year.  Perriman and Mims looked like real, starting-caliber WR's (or at least WR3 level) with him under center.  

Obviously, we all @GATA pray that Wilson is that guy who can lift up the offense right away, much like Justin Herbert just did in Los Angeles.  

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1 hour ago, Wonderboy said:

Gase went 7-9 before ultimately sinking. That 7-9 season was a total illusion. They stunk big time. Easy schedule and really didn’t play.  My hope is they show progress in their overall competitiveness.  Last year the Chargers lost several games by a few points. Their offense rocked under Herbert.  That’s what I’m hoping for.  An offense that can score points and a team that plays hard and is no pushover. Wins in time will come.  Good teams find a way to win. 

I agree with this. Just as the inflated record of 7 wins a couple years ago was an illusion, so could an artificially deflated record if the team is young and developing.

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30 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

Getting rid of players and accumulating picks has mostly been the easy part though.  And, JD largely did well in getting value return on guys like Leo Williams, Jamal and now Sam Darnold.  But that's a minor part of how you evaluate a GM.  Getting all the picks in the world is nice, but it's how he uses them that matters.  In that regard we've had a mixed bag of results thus far.... Becton, Mims and Hall look like good picks so far.  The jury is still out on Zuniga, Cam Clarke, Mann, Davis, Perine and Morgan but Year 2 is when we expect to find out to what degree those guys will become contributors.

In a nutshell, yes. That’s what this post is about. I like the way he does business, the way he forms relationships, his trades, the methodology that appears to be involved. It’s all good. The complaints about him so far, IMHO, have been mostly trivial. Judging mid-round rookies coached by the worst head coach ever with the worst starting QB in the league (as has been repeated here ad nauseam) doesn’t seem entirely fair, but that’s changing. 

This year it’s really his team. The purge is almost complete, as a significant percentage of the roster will now be his draft picks and FA acquisitions. It’s his hand-picked head coach leading his hand-picked QB. The rebuild won’t be done, but it needs to be close to complete, otherwise the cycle will just continue. And none of us wants that. The Jets had the first 4000 yard passer in pro football history, it’s really about time for them to have their second. Rex has been vilified around here but, man, I could use a couple deep playoff runs. This is Joe D’s shot at that, right now. 

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4 hours ago, Creepy Lurker said:

I approve of this message. The current fire Joe Douglas thread is premature. Only I can decide when it’s ok to fire the GM. My ex-captain status grants me those powers. 

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2 hours ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

I once bought a plate of sliders for my friend at a bar. He took them into the bathroom stall. People booed him. They actually booed him. 

The wisdom of the crowd....

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5 hours ago, slats said:

but if Joe Douglas does his job well in the draft, we shouldn't be talking about the rebuild continuing next offseason. We should be talking about filling the last few holes, and maybe someone like me who hates taking RBs too early can start entertaining that idea next year when they have two firsts and two seconds to spend. No one should be expecting playoffs this year, but we should expect a team that looks competent and competitive with far fewer holes than they had in June of 2019. A team poised to get back into the post-season.

The "legitimate complaints about Joe Douglas" will start if he doesn't do his job in this draft and that includes taking Wilson. His FA signings and the other draft picks will have to - in own words - hit.

The bottom line will be as you said "we should expect a team that looks competent and competitive".

If this teams looks like crap, for any reason then JD deserves serious criticism. We'll know if he's any good at the end of 2021.

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5 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I’ve been in a seething rage since we drafted James Morgan (over that great nickel corner whose name I can’t spell on the Rams!!) my wife left me over it

 

I thought see said it was your small hands!

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5 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

It's about developing the QB.  Right now it can't be about winning and losing.

JD tore this thing down the past two years and chose to start the rebuild with a QB at #2 overall.  Developing that QB needs to the first, second and third priority of this organization.

I'm all for a balanced team and once you develop the QB he should be able to carry the offense with less talent - but right now Zach Wilson's development should be the ONLY thing that matters.

Sure - having a good defense can help a QB but not as much as having a good OL, RB, TE or WR's...

Two other things to consider..

Defense was supported better in FA to date

Defense already and still has more talent than the offense.  You can probably go offense at 23 and 34 and the defense will still have the better roster.

 

Damn straight. Now that JD has made the decision to go forward with Wilson he must do everything he can to support him.

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4 hours ago, slats said:

The idea of taking a RB or TE when there's an Edge or CB they like as much or better turns my stomach. If JD feels one of those defensive positions is too much value to pass up at #23 or #34, I'm completely and totally fine with that. If he spends both of those picks on defense, I'll be less fine. I really like the idea of getting an OT with one of those picks who plays guard this year and takes over for Fant next. 

You can find starting TEs, RBs, and Gs in the middle rounds virtually every year. I'd like to see a couple of his mid/late picks from last year show something under the new staff, and for him to keep filling the queue with developmental talent in this year's draft. 

RB and TE are non premium positions and if JD wastes a top pick on one it will be very telling. I want OL and WR with #23 and #34 but if an exceptional edge or CB falls to us then it a decision JD will have to live with.

 

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2 hours ago, Mike135 said:

JD pulled off a good trade with Jamal.  He also drafted Becton.

That's about all the good he's done so far.

Now for the negatives...  he failed miserably to build a solid oline last year.  No one expected to go from worst to average at the oline in one offseason, but he went from worst to worst.  

Yes PFF has the 2020 Jets oline at 29th (yippee!), but they were the worst in pass protection.

He also somehow managed to downgrade our WR corps last year.

Effectively he wasted Sam's 3rd year, and now he reportedly had lost faith in Sam.  So we now need to use our 2nd overall pick on a QB, instead of getting a haul in return for trading it.

JD is on shakey ground imo.

Hey, if things turn around this season, then he's on track to be a good one.  But I'm grading him at a C- so far.

It's frankly too early grade him. It's like grading Herakles right after you gave him a shovel to clean the Augean Stables. By next draft, we'll have a truer sense of what Douglas's grand scheme is. Until then, we're in the very early quarters of a long game.

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13 minutes ago, Big_Slick said:

The "legitimate complaints about Joe Douglas" will start if he doesn't do his job in this draft and that includes taking Wilson. His FA signings and the other draft picks will have to - in own words - hit.

The bottom line will be as you said "we should expect a team that looks competent and competitive".

If this teams looks like crap, for any reason then JD deserves serious criticism. We'll know if he's any good at the end of 2021.

100%
 
The team that hits the field this year is his team. No excuses. Last year, it was what was left while the Jets carried a ton of dead cap from bad Maccagnan contracts and draft picks dumped, coached by the coach Mac hired. 

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People are gonna doom and gloom everything till we get some results. I’m down with JD.

I could see taking Phillips or Farley at 23, if not for those two then all offense all the time except maybe a LB in rounds 3 or 4

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3 hours ago, David Harris said:

I really think the Jets are at a pivoting to respectability.  I think we are on the path to becoming a well respected, well run organization similar to the Ravens and Steelers

curb your enthusiasm ok GIF

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7 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

If it takes defense at 23 or 34 they'll be plenty to complain about. 

Because we dont need defensve players?

If he takes D at either 23 or 34 and uses the rest of the draft for OL, WR whatever no one should complain

 

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5 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

We want fewer things, not more things to be concerned about.  JD has clearly been working to dig the Jets out of a talentless hole full of bad contracts.  The past 18-24 months he was doing the dirty work, the unglamorous stuff.  But we're now clearly at the point where he needs to acquire talent and stop shipping it off.  The Cap is largely clear, draft picks have been accumulated, he has a nearly clean slate.  In less than 3 weeks he will have both his own hand-picked HC and QB in place.  Saleh and Wilson be JD's ride or die guys!

Getting rid of players and accumulating picks has mostly been the easy part though.  And, JD largely did well in getting value return on guys like Leo Williams, Jamal and now Sam Darnold.  But that's a minor part of how you evaluate a GM.  Getting all the picks in the world is nice, but it's how he uses them that matters.  In that regard we've had a mixed bag of results thus far.... Becton, Mims and Hall look like good picks so far.  The jury is still out on Zuniga, Cam Clarke, Mann, Davis, Perine and Morgan but Year 2 is when we expect to find out to what degree those guys will become contributors.

One thing is clear about JD though, he is methodical and has a plan.  I haven't seen him make any panic moves except for some bad emergency band-aids (ex. Center Ryan Kalil) that were somewhat unavoidable early on.  The one downside to his approach is that it doesn't fit well with an impatient fanbase.  That's not his fault, it's ours.  We need to keep in mind that while many fans have been watching, waiting for 5, 10, 30 years for this team to become consistently good, in his mind JD is just getting started.  And for Robert Saleh he is undefeated as the Jets HC so these guys don't carry or feel anywhere near the kind of frustration that the fanbase does.

For me, the evaluation will be pretty simple.  Does JD acquire good players and use his draft picks well on guys that contribute over the longterm?

This is a well thought out post. Thank you for it. One thing is for sure moving forward. We as a fan base need to stop blaming Mac for all our ills. For better or worse this is without a doubt JDs team. So now his work needs to start to translate into wins.....otherwise why are we doing this? To say how great our cap space is or our draft capital. Wins, it’s all about winning 

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2 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Because we dont need defensve players?

If he takes D at either 23 or 34 and uses the rest of the draft for OL, WR whatever no one should complain

 

If, say, Patrick Surtain is somehow there at 23, you sprint to the podium.  This is a very deep OL draft.  There is a good chance that a great player slips to 34.  I have no problem going CB at 23.  I’d understand it.

CC: @Jetsfan80 because I meant to quote you as well.

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Only possible complaints I can think of:

1.  Second go at FA with a lot of "show me" contracts that really haven't paid off yet.

2.  The Morgan pick was a waste if he doesn't turn to be out a long term backup we can flip.

3.  OL rebuild is still in order and needs attention.

Outside of that I have nothing to complain about.

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26 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

If, say, Patrick Surtain is somehow there at 23, you sprint to the podium.  This is a very deep OL draft.  There is a good chance that a great player slips to 34.  I have no problem going CB at 23.  I’d understand it.

CC: @Jetsfan80 because I meant to quote you as well.


Yup, we’re in lock step agreement on this.

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28 minutes ago, pdxgreen said:

Only possible complaints I can think of:

1.  Second go at FA with a lot of "show me" contracts that really haven't paid off yet.

2.  The Morgan pick was a waste if he doesn't turn to be out a long term backup we can flip.

3.  OL rebuild is still in order and needs attention.

Outside of that I have nothing to complain about.

I don't like the Morgan pick but the Perine pick was far worse. Just a nothing prospect in a worthless position. I still can't get over it.

The bigger crime of that draft was not double dipping at WR. It was insane how many late round picks were productive and everyone seen it coming. I think this draft will be similar but we seem to have sorted it in free agency and not sure how I feel about that. 

The first free agency was a total whiff. We'd have been better off overpaying for Robby and Conklin rather than Perriman and Fant. I'd be shocked if we don't feel similarly about Linsley and Thuney after this season although they may have been less likely to join anyways. 

Douglas' record has been mixed at best. His greatest achievement has been clearing the decks and getting the draft picks, but picks are not players and the hard part is yet to come. 

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9 hours ago, slats said:

Premium position with premium picks, especially as you're still rebuilding. 

QB (check!), OT, WR, Edge, CB

He really shouldn't be looking at any other positions that high. 

I’d add C/OG. In todays NFL with teams trying to get pressure up the middle, IOL should not be overlooked especially w/a rookie/young QB.  A case can be made RTs can be found mid-draft. 

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11 hours ago, bitonti said:

Here are actual reasons to criticize Joe Douglas 

Ryan Kalil 

Kaare Vedvick 

Robby Anderson

George Fant making double Brandon Shell 

Most of last years draft picks 

And soon, flushing his career on a small mid major dude without a signature win 

 

Can’t believe he signed that kicker and old center. Thanks for proving OPs point 

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