For those still wishing for Fields, get in here! We're going to his proday tomorrow again

[FidelioJet]

42 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Basically you’re acting like my 18 year then. If they don’t for whatever reason... lol I will never let you live it down. Including mailing you cum rags for fun. 

Will you be okay if I do this to you when the Jets do take him?

[joewilly12]

55 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Basically you’re acting like my 18 year then. If they don’t for whatever reason... lol I will never let you live it down. Including mailing you cum rags for fun. 

[jetswinbaby!]

It's odd that JD was not at Fields' 2nd Pro Day...

If Wilson had a 2nd Pro Day, would he miss that one also?

I don't think so...

I think it is a strong indication of where he's going with the pick...

[Paradis]

47 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

You are correct and I get your point, but when I'm reading posts about how ZW is scrambling and making off platform throws was solely for selfish reasons to show off, when he could have stayed int the pocket - not panicking or making bad decision - but doing it on purpose to create a highlight reel  - and then seeing multiple people agree with that statement.

Talk about creating friction.  Me saying the Jets are taking Wilson (when the world pretty much knows they are) as opposed to claiming, basically as fact, that ZW is a selfish fool that made great plays to the detriment of his team in order to increase his draft status and/or ego...

Tell me, which of those is creating more friction?

And that is just one example - there are countless posts making ridiculous claims about ZW that are entirely unfounded yet stated as fact.

 

Dude. You’re in a  position I’ve never known. In all the years of following the draft I’ve never been even remotely close to feeling confident that a player I loved was going to be selected by the Jets. Enjoy it… Why get into arguments? At this point if people were sway-able, they’d have been swayed.  I would let the player do the talking for me. Don’t think David Johnson is more than a 3rd down back? ...we’ll see who gets the last laugh. 

If ever I’m fortunate enough to be in your shoes, I’m  not gonna squander with getting into bullheaded absolutist arguments,… If only because I wouldn’t want to jinx it lol.

...but We’ve all been in those situations where you’re not entirely sure you like the direction the team is going in, so show some empathy and take a diplomatic approach to those conversations

45 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Will you be okay if I do this to you when the Jets do take him?

I expect Wilson to be picked 

[Gangrene]

15 hours ago, football guy said:

Social media culture makes people so polarized/binary about these kinds of things, which results in the overly emotional/sensationalistic takes. Kyle Shanahan can be a fan of Justin Fields yet not prefer him as the type of QB to run his system. It doesn't have to be so toxic, but for whatever reason it is. God forbid someone suggests Fields won't be the pick and some fans (both Jets/49ers) act like you've... 

*flashes back to better times*

 

I do wonder if Kyle Shanahan was at Justin Fields work outs for support more than anything else. He has worked with him in football camps since high school. I suspect in the face of the rumors and the subsequent politicized backlash that he might might be trying to do Fields a solid...

What is apparent on a 49'er forum and here on Jet Nation is how quickly the fan base in a qb needy team will coalesce in factions shouting down alternative opinions with their own absolute truths.

We put these qbs on pedestals, a golden calf that fans dance around until the losses begin to pile up.

Three years ago, there were five highly touted qbs,  Mayfield, Darnold, Rosen, Jackson and Allen. The talk was that Jackson needed the right team fit for his unique style of play, that Rosen had personality questions relating to his leadership qualities and hunger for the game. Allen's accuracy was the big worry despite his incredible arm and Darnold's interceptions gave some pause.  Mayfield's height was his only significant question. 

So far of those five highly touted qbs, the two outliers, Jackson and Allen are the qbs who have hit...they both landed in stable franchises. Mayfield is decent with a good cast/ good coach around him. Darnold is trending down but has a chance to prove the doubters wrong in Carolina with Rosen being the likely bust.

Leadership, hunger for the game and likability seem to count for something...not matter how accurate or athletic you are. 

I am amazed that despite all our 21st century forensic examination, what an inexact science it is. Like you have said team fit matters, coaching/surrounding talent matters. I suspect if any of the other four qbs from the 2018 class were drafted by the jets, there would still be a giant question mark over any of those four if they were the Jets qb coming into the 2021 draft.

Today in the history of Jets quarterbacks, ex jets qbs are mocked by the fan base. Only Joe Namath has escaped the wrath. "Noddle Arm"  "Intercepteverde" .  One really bad play will be remembered for  a decade or more. "Butt Fumble",  "Bubby Shovel Pass Brister". One poster needed to describe Darnold masturbating to a photo of Josh Allen. When the fan base turns, it get ugly quickly.

Will Zach Wilson be the first qb since Namath to stay healthy long enough and win enough games so he doesn't become next Jets qb to be vilified and cast out by the same mob that once crowned him Prince ? History suggests he is no sure thing.

 

 

 

[FidelioJet]

10 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Dude. You’re in a  position I’ve never known. In all the years of following the draft I’ve never been even remotely close to feeling confident that a player I loved was going to be selected by the Jets. Enjoy it… Why get into arguments? At this point if people were sway-able, they’d have been swayed.  I would let the player do talking for me. Don’t think David Johnson is more than a 3rd down back? ...we’ll see who gets the last laugh. 

If ever I’m fortunate enough to be in your shoes, I’m certainly not gonna squandered with getting into bullheaded absolutist arguments,… If only because I wouldn’t want to jinx it lol.

...but We’ve all been in those situations where you’re not entirely sure you like the direction the team is going in, so show some empathy and take a diplomatic approach to those conversations

I expect Wilson to be picked 

Here's the thing though.

Yes, I like Zach Wilson - but I like these other guys too - always have.  Specifically Fields - I think he's a great talent and would be happy to have him.  If I'm wrong and they take JF I'll be excited because the professionals watched countless hours of film, spoken with the player many times, watched him throw live and came away thinking he's the best prospect.  I can watch game film on YouTube - which ultimately is nothing.

I'm not at all saying we're taking ZW because I really like him - I'm saying that because I'm just confident it's what's going to happen.    There have been enough rumors, leaks, hints etc....that are so one-sided and understanding the draft history - this late in the game and this high - it would be beyond shocking if it wasn't the case.  

I guess if I left some room for being wrong would make this okay?  almost certain? 99% certain?  Seriously, what's the strongest wording I could use without creating friction?

[DetroitRed]

Jets were never taking Fields.  Darnold would be back, if Fields were the only other option

[legler82]

15 minutes ago, Gangrene said:

I do wonder if Kyle Shanahan was at Justin Fields work outs for support more than anything else. He has worked with him in football camps since high school. I suspect in the face of the rumors and the subsequent politicized backlash that he might might be trying to do Fields a solid...

What is apparent on a 49'er forum and here on Jet Nation is how quickly the fan base in a qb needy team will coalesce in factions shouting down alternative opinions with their own absolute truths.

We put these qbs on pedestals, a golden calf that fans dance around until the losses begin to pile up.

Three years ago, there were five high touted qbs,  Mayfield, Darnold, Rosen, Jackson and Allen. The talk was that Jackson needed the right team fit for his unique style of play, that Rosen had personality questions relating to his leadership qualities and hunger for the game. Allen's accuracy was the big worry despite his incredible arm and Darnold's interceptions gave some pause.  Mayfield's height was his only significant question. 

So far of those five highly touted qbs, the two outliers, Jackson and Allen are the qbs who have hit...they both landed in stable franchises. Mayfield is decent with a a good cast/ good coach around him. Darnold is trending down but has a chance to prove the doubters wrong in Carolina with Rosen being the likely bust.

Leadership, hunger for the game and likability seem to count for something...not matter how accurate or athletic you are. 

I am amazed that despite all our 21st century forensic examination, what an inexact science it is. Like you have said team fit matters, coaching/surrounding talent matters. I suspect if any of the other four qbs from the 2018 class were drafted by the jets, there would still be a giant question mark over any of those four if they were the Jets qb coming into the 2021 draft.

Today in the history of Jets quarterbacks, ex jets qbs are mocked by the fan base. Only Joe Namath has escaped the wrath. "Noddle Arm"  "Intercepteverde" .  One really bad play will be remembered for  a decade or more. "Butt Fumble",  "Bubby Shovel Pass Brister". One poster needed to describe Darnold masturbating to a photo of Josh Allen. When the fan base turns, it get ugly quickly.

Will Zach Wilson be the first qb since Namath to stay healthy long enough and win enough games so he doesn't become next Jets qb to be vilified and cast out by the same mob that once crowned him Prince ? History suggests he is no sure thing.

 

 

 

Damn Fields is getting sympathy visits now.  How the mighty has fallen.

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, legler82 said:

Todd McShay ESPN

Tony Pauline PFN

Daniel Jeremiah NFLN

PFF

Sporting News

To name a few

 

Whats this a list of?

 

[legler82]

Just now, Jet Nut said:

Whats this a list of?

 

Draft “experts” and sites that weren’t high on Mahomes but are super high on Wilson.  It’s my ass backwards overcompensation list.

[Paradis]

45 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

 Wednesday nights. Missionary.

[Jet Nut]

2 minutes ago, legler82 said:

Draft “experts” and sites that weren’t high on Mahomes but are super high on Wilson.  It’s my ass backwards overcompensation list.

Thanks, wasnt sure 

But do remember, most on the list have Fields pretty much 2b to Wilsons 2a

[maury77]

29 minutes ago, jetswinbaby! said:

It's odd that JD was not at Fields' 2nd Pro Day...

If Wilson had a 2nd Pro Day, would he miss that one also?

I don't think so...

I think it is a strong indication of where he's going with the pick...

Who knows? 

For Wilson's pro day the Jets sent Douglas, La Fleur and Saleh

https://jetswire.usatoday.com/2021/03/26/new-york-jets-zach-wilson-pro-day-2021-nfl-draft-joe-douglas-robert-saleh-mike-lafleur/

For Field's 1st pro day, the Jets sent Douglas, La Fleur and Rex Hogan (Saleh couldn't go because his wife was about to give birth)

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/ny-justin-fields-pro-day-nfl-draft-20210330-2d4rnsi4czgl5duogwtbed75gy-story.html

No one has revealed who from the Jets went to Fields second pro day. We only know Douglas didn't go, but I'm curious if Saleh went because it would then mean that all the people that went to go see Wilson also went to see Fields. 

Only Douglas and Hogan went to see Trevor Lawrence

https://jetswire.usatoday.com/2021/02/12/joe-douglas-rex-hogan-jets-attendance-trevor-lawrence-pro-day/

Only Douglas went to see Trey Lance

https://sny.tv/articles/jets-gm-joe-douglas-attends-north-dakota-state-qb-trey-lance-s-pro-day-workout

I don't think anyone from the Jets went to see Mac Jones. 

What does this all mean? Who the hell knows. But the Jets have sent the most people to go see Wilson and Fields. 

[legler82]

2 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Thanks, wasnt sure 

But do remember, most on the list have Fields pretty much 2b to Wilsons 2a

This has nothing to do with Fields.  It has to do with not seeing the unworldly talent in Mahomes 2017 then hyping up Wilson now as the next Mahomes when he is a far inferior talent to Mahomes IMO.  It doesn’t make sense to me.

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, legler82 said:

This has nothing to do with Fields.  It has to do with not seeing the unworldly talent in Mahomes 2017 then hyping up Wilson now as the next Mahomes when he is a far inferior talent to Mahomes IMO.  It doesn’t make sense to me.

I was just pointing out the differences between what the different "experts" rankings

We have no idea how these QBs will work out.  Mahomes is a top QB, its unfair to go on about how any college QB isnt Mahomes.  Lawrence isnt Mahomes.  But he may turn out to be as good, no one can be so sure.  And so could Wilson no one knows for sure at this point.  Just like no one thought Allen would be and he sure was a year ago. 

[playtowinthegame]

1 hour ago, maury77 said:

Who knows? 

For Wilson's pro day the Jets sent Douglas, La Fleur and Saleh

https://jetswire.usatoday.com/2021/03/26/new-york-jets-zach-wilson-pro-day-2021-nfl-draft-joe-douglas-robert-saleh-mike-lafleur/

For Field's 1st pro day, the Jets sent Douglas, La Fleur and Rex Hogan (Saleh couldn't go because his wife was about to give birth)

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/ny-justin-fields-pro-day-nfl-draft-20210330-2d4rnsi4czgl5duogwtbed75gy-story.html

No one has revealed who from the Jets went to Fields second pro day. We only know Douglas didn't go, but I'm curious if Saleh went because it would then mean that all the people that went to go see Wilson also went to see Fields. 

Only Douglas and Hogan went to see Trevor Lawrence

https://jetswire.usatoday.com/2021/02/12/joe-douglas-rex-hogan-jets-attendance-trevor-lawrence-pro-day/

Only Douglas went to see Trey Lance

https://sny.tv/articles/jets-gm-joe-douglas-attends-north-dakota-state-qb-trey-lance-s-pro-day-workout

I don't think anyone from the Jets went to see Mac Jones. 

What does this all mean? Who the hell knows. But the Jets have sent the most people to go see Wilson and Fields. 

 

As for Fields, I'm not sure why we can't get anymore information regarding who the Jets sent for his second pro day. You'd think that kind of information in today's day and age would have been leaked by now. All I know is I hope Robert Saleh went due to the fact he missed the first Fields pro day. Trey Lance's second pro day is April 19, but I don't feel the Jets will send anyone to that, unless of course the Jets go to Lance's 2nd pro day in the guise of due diligence, but instead are using that visit as a place to seed a trade on draft day. Bottom line, I think things are fluid regarding what the Jets will eventually do with their 2nd overall pick in 2 weeks in Cleveland on Thursday night. 

[legler82]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

I was just pointing out the differences between what the different "experts" rankings

We have no idea how these QBs will work out.  Mahomes is a top QB, its unfair to go on about how any college QB isnt Mahomes.  Lawrence isnt Mahomes.  But he may turn out to be as good, no one can be so sure.  And so could Wilson no one knows for sure at this point.  Just like no one thought Allen would be and he sure was a year ago. 

You completely missed my point and I take offense to no one thought Allen would be where he is.

[maury77]

30 minutes ago, playtowinthegame said:

 

As for Fields, I'm not sure why we can't get anymore information regarding who the Jets sent for his second pro day. You'd think that kind of information in today's day and age would have been leaked by now. All I know is I hope Robert Saleh went due to the fact he missed the first Fields pro day. Trey Lance's second pro day is April 19, but I don't feel the Jets will send anyone to that, unless of course the Jets go to Lance's 2nd pro day in the guise of due diligence, but instead are using that visit as a place to seed a trade on draft day. Bottom line, I think things are fluid regarding what the Jets will eventually do with their 2nd overall pick in 2 weeks in Cleveland on Thursday night. 

Realistically, there are only 2 explanations why they went to see Fields

1) They are not 100% decided what direction they want to go at 2 (although they may be 99.9% there); or

2) They want people to believe #1 to force a trade-up. 

[RogerVick1980]

15 hours ago, football guy said:

Social media culture makes people so polarized/binary about these kinds of things, which results in the overly emotional/sensationalistic takes. Kyle Shanahan can be a fan of Justin Fields yet not prefer him as the type of QB to run his system. It doesn't have to be so toxic, but for whatever reason it is. God forbid someone suggests Fields won't be the pick and some fans (both Jets/49ers) act like you've... 

*flashes back to better times*

 

Yep.. Also Fields has been thought of as QB1 or QB2 for a few years which gets in fans heads so they think how can he slip when realistically he was never thought of as a sure thing by NFL people.  just because draft Twitter experts have had Fields as QB1 or QB2 for years doesn’t mean the NFL does.

I never realized the ego nfl draft evaluators have till recently.

Like if you disagree with them on a player they take it as a personal alight that someone disagrees with them.

 

 

[Lith]

If we go Wilson, I hope this is true.  If we pass on him, I do not want him falling to NE.

[RogerVick1980]

Odds in Vegas have jumped up for Fields going to SF.

I think that’s an overreaction to people  seeing Shanahan talking and smiling with Fields and people running with it.

[derp]

3 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Here's the thing though.

Yes, I like Zach Wilson - but I like these other guys too - always have.  Specifically Fields - I think he's a great talent and would be happy to have him.  If I'm wrong and they take JF I'll be excited because the professionals watched countless hours of film, spoken with the player many times, watched him throw live and came away thinking he's the best prospect.  I can watch game film on YouTube - which ultimately is nothing.

I'm not at all saying we're taking ZW because I really like him - I'm saying that because I'm just confident it's what's going to happen.    There have been enough rumors, leaks, hints etc....that are so one-sided and understanding the draft history - this late in the game and this high - it would be beyond shocking if it wasn't the case.  

I guess if I left some room for being wrong would make this okay?  almost certain? 99% certain?  Seriously, what's the strongest wording I could use without creating friction?

I expect the Jets will take Zach Wilson.

That said, the Jets haven't been a big rumors, leaks, hints franchise lately - the rumors have largely if not entirely been wrong with Douglas as GM - and I actually think this is early and definitely not late for rumors as far as draft history goes.

[football guy]

4 hours ago, legler82 said:

Some QBs do fail because of their circumstances but I felt Mahomes was one of the rare ones incapable of that.  He could have failed to reach his ceiling but a flat out bust? I couldn’t see it.

We were running a version of the WCO.  He was ultimately drafted by the contemporary godfather of that offense.  So scheme fit was not an issue either despite many Jets fans’ claims. 
 

 

Appreciate this and I agree with a lot of your stuff here. To add to it, Mahomes played in a system that was beyond simple which scared people, but he was a wizard on the board which left people in shock. They didn't understand how he had such deep knowledge of passing concepts and defenses when he wasn't responsible for knowing any of it in college, nor did it show up on tape. 

My issue was not that I didn't think he could fit in the WCO, rather, I felt he needed to land with the right coaching staff that would get him to become more efficient down-to-down and channel his explosive plays. He was so reckless in college, but you saw that raw talent on display every time he went "school yard bullsh*t" mode. So part 1: must have a good, proven QB coach who could teach him to play from within the pocket (pretty much the opposite of Fields, who is already sturdy and has solid mechanics in a clean pocket, but doesn't have the special qualities outside of structure). The stuff Mahomes had in college is stuff you can't teach, and any team who could find a way to corral it and get more consistent play out of him I felt would be landing the next Aaron Rodgers. 

The second part of the equation: not all WCOs are created equal. To say that a player "fits the WCO" undersells it a little bit. The WCO is a passing philosophy and shared terminology more than a scheme, and the amount of sub-schemes that have since branched off of it now feels endless. Most of the teams in the NFL have their own twist and varying blocking schemes. Take it from Kyle Shanahan: when a reporter sat down for a 1-on-1 interview with him to connect his implementation of the WCO and bringing it back to the Bay Area (Walsh), Kyle responded: "I don't ******* run the west coast offense." So there's that lol. Coaches don't use labels to explain their scheme, they describe it in philosophy, but for us that's too difficult. Instead, I see them in my own basic categories...

• Shanahan's WCO - pocket movement designed to get players in space and to set up aggressive big-play passing, traditional I-formation and 1TE (12 personnel & 21 personnel), wide zone blocking scheme, and primarily run from under center... run sets up the pass (heavy play-action, pre-snap motion, and roll-out usage, requiring QB to throw on the run)... run game is made up of 2 primary plays: inside/outside zone, draw plays (fool defense to think it's a pass play) are not used
• Reid's modern WCO/AR - blend of Air Raid/Vertical passing with pocket movement, spread out (heavy 3WR sets), flex blocking scheme (gap/inside zone), and primarily run out of shotgun... pass sets up the run (play-action from under center/rpo, pre-snap motion)... run game is made up of diverse running game with draws and counters and draws (make defense think pass then run)
• Baltimore's WCO - Read option merged with option-routes and plays designed to the middle of the field (2WR/2TE/2RB), flex blocking scheme (power/man), primarily run out of shotgun... run sets up the pass (all play-action is RPO; limited roll-out usage)... run game is power-running scheme with RPO based (make defense think run then pass)  
• Gruden/McCarthy/Payton's WCO - the closest thing to Walsh's WCO but modernized... conservative, ball-control oriented passing, blend of inline, bunch, and spread out looks (heavy 3WR sets), flex blocking scheme (gap/man/inside zone), and primarily run from the shotgun... pass sets up the run... run game is made up of diverse running game with draws and counters and draws (make defense think pass then run)

Yes, I think Mahomes would have fit into all of them to some degree, and I think he would've been successful as long as he was awarded the time and coaching necessary to get him into the right headspace, but Reid's modernized version- which incorporates a ton of spread and Air Raid (which Mahomes played in college)-allows him to get the ball out of his hands quickly on ball control plays and then allows him to pick and choose when he's ready to make plays outside of structure. I think he honestly landed in the perfect spot. Is that to say he wouldn't have been a great QB if say the Saints moved up for him? No, because Payton would've used him more like he did Romo than Brees because he's adaptable. That being said, I'm very opposed to the thought that John Morton and Jeremy Bates would've gotten the most out of him in this chaotic environment that lacked the weapons, stability, and coaching to develop a raw and reckless player. Bates knew how to coach a QB, but not great, and he was not a good play-caller... he didn't put the QB in as good of positions as he could have game-plan wise. 

 

Now if we were to dive deep on Fields it would be a different angle. I think Fields is more refined mechanically and a much better decision-maker than Mahomes was, but he's not as loose-armed/doesn't have as much throw-power (no one does), he's not as flexible of an athlete as a thrower nor does he consistently throw off-platform as well (feels more comfortable in the pocket). I don't know where he is on the board, but I'm assuming he's at least good... the OSU offense was more predetermined than TT was though. I think if you told me Fields was going to play in an "Air" Erhardt-Perkins option-styled offense and awarded time, I would take him over Mahomes as a prospect if they were in the same draft class. If you told me it's going to be one of the offenses above, I'd take Mahomes. If you gave me all of them and threw Zach Wilson into the mix, I'm taking him over all. It's not that I think he'll be the next Mahomes, but to me, it's really easy to project his game and at the very least he should be a very good, Matthew Stafford-like QB. Maybe better, maybe worse, but I feel that's a safe projection, whereas Mahomes/Fields are more volatile and depended on scheme/coaching/situation... ultimately this is just my perspective, and I'm not expecting you to take it as gospel either... you have your perspective and that's great; I just love talking X-Os and football strategy/philosophy

[adobolo2]

13 minutes ago, football guy said:

Appreciate this and I agree with a lot of your stuff here. To add to it, Mahomes played in a system that was beyond simple which scared people, but he was a wizard on the board which left people in shock. They didn't understand how he had such deep knowledge of passing concepts and defenses when he wasn't responsible for knowing any of it in college, nor did it show up on tape. 

My issue was not that I didn't think he could fit in the WCO, rather, I felt he needed to land with the right coaching staff that would get him to become more efficient down-to-down and channel his explosive plays. He was so reckless in college, but you saw that raw talent on display every time he went "school yard bullsh*t" mode. So part 1: must have a good, proven QB coach who could teach him to play from within the pocket (pretty much the opposite of Fields, who is already sturdy and has solid mechanics in a clean pocket, but doesn't have the special qualities outside of structure). The stuff Mahomes had in college is stuff you can't teach, and any team who could find a way to corral it and get more consistent play out of him I felt would be landing the next Aaron Rodgers. 

The second part of the equation: not all WCOs are created equal. To say that a player "fits the WCO" undersells it a little bit. The WCO is a passing philosophy and shared terminology more than a scheme, and the amount of sub-schemes that have since branched off of it now feels endless. Most of the teams in the NFL have their own twist and varying blocking schemes. Take it from Kyle Shanahan: when a reporter sat down for a 1-on-1 interview with him to connect his implementation of the WCO and bringing it back to the Bay Area (Walsh), Kyle responded: "I don't ******* run the west coast offense." So there's that lol. Coaches don't use labels to explain their scheme, they describe it in philosophy, but for us that's too difficult. Instead, I see them in my own basic categories...

• Shanahan's WCO - pocket movement designed to get players in space and to set up aggressive big-play passing, traditional I-formation and 1TE (12 personnel & 21 personnel), wide zone blocking scheme, and primarily run from under center... run sets up the pass (heavy play-action, pre-snap motion, and roll-out usage, requiring QB to throw on the run)... run game is made up of 2 primary plays: inside/outside zone, draw plays (fool defense to think it's a pass play) are not used
• Reid's modern WCO/AR - blend of Air Raid/Vertical passing with pocket movement, spread out (heavy 3WR sets), flex blocking scheme (gap/inside zone), and primarily run out of shotgun... pass sets up the run (play-action from under center/rpo, pre-snap motion)... run game is made up of diverse running game with draws and counters and draws (make defense think pass then run)
• Baltimore's WCO - Read option merged with option-routes and plays designed to the middle of the field (2WR/2TE/2RB), flex blocking scheme (power/man), primarily run out of shotgun... run sets up the pass (all play-action is RPO; limited roll-out usage)... run game is power-running scheme with RPO based (make defense think run then pass)  
• Gruden/McCarthy/Payton's WCO - the closest thing to Walsh's WCO but modernized... conservative, ball-control oriented passing, blend of inline, bunch, and spread out looks (heavy 3WR sets), flex blocking scheme (gap/man/inside zone), and primarily run from the shotgun... pass sets up the run... run game is made up of diverse running game with draws and counters and draws (make defense think pass then run)

Yes, I think Mahomes would have fit into all of them to some degree, and I think he would've been successful as long as he was awarded the time and coaching necessary to get him into the right headspace, but Reid's modernized version- which incorporates a ton of spread and Air Raid (which Mahomes played in college)-allows him to get the ball out of his hands quickly on ball control plays and then allows him to pick and choose when he's ready to make plays outside of structure. I think he honestly landed in the perfect spot. Is that to say he wouldn't have been a great QB if say the Saints moved up for him? No, because Payton would've used him more like he did Romo than Brees because he's adaptable. That being said, I'm very opposed to the thought that John Morton and Jeremy Bates would've gotten the most out of him in this chaotic environment that lacked the weapons, stability, and coaching to develop a raw and reckless player. Bates knew how to coach a QB, but not great, and he was not a good play-caller... he didn't put the QB in as good of positions as he could have game-plan wise. 

 

Now if we were to dive deep on Fields it would be a different angle. I think Fields is more refined mechanically and a much better decision-maker than Mahomes was, but he's not as loose-armed/doesn't have as much throw-power (no one does), he's not as flexible of an athlete as a thrower nor does he consistently throw off-platform as well (feels more comfortable in the pocket). I don't know where he is on the board, but I'm assuming he's at least good... the OSU offense was more predetermined than TT was though. I think if you told me Fields was going to play in an "Air" Erhardt-Perkins option-styled offense and awarded time, I would take him over Mahomes as a prospect if they were in the same draft class. If you told me it's going to be one of the offenses above, I'd take Mahomes. If you gave me all of them and threw Zach Wilson into the mix, I'm taking him over all. It's not that I think he'll be the next Mahomes, but to me, it's really easy to project his game and at the very least he should be a very good, Matthew Stafford-like QB. Maybe better, maybe worse, but I feel that's a safe projection, whereas Mahomes/Fields are more volatile and depended on scheme/coaching/situation... ultimately this is just my perspective, and I'm not expecting you to take it as gospel either... you have your perspective and that's great; I just love talking X-Os and football strategy/philosophy

I'm probably wrong on this but I was lead to believe that the Shanahan offence was based around a qb staying on script, a kind of do what we tell you and you will be successful. 

Leflour went the green bay and told Rodgers to stop going off script and it's got him MVP of the league.

This is why the 49ers are been linked with Jones.

Fields is supposed to have great accuracy and pocket presence so I don't get why you don't think he is a good fit for the leflour offence at the jets?  Also Wilson seems to take the decision of plays into his own hands by throwing deep (successfully) when there seemed to be recievers who had been schemed open underneath, I'm not saying wilson is not a good QB for the jets but don't understand why Fields who has been doing what we need longer is not.

[legler82]

1 hour ago, football guy said:

Appreciate this and I agree with a lot of your stuff here. To add to it, Mahomes played in a system that was beyond simple which scared people, but he was a wizard on the board which left people in shock. They didn't understand how he had such deep knowledge of passing concepts and defenses when he wasn't responsible for knowing any of it in college, nor did it show up on tape. 

My issue was not that I didn't think he could fit in the WCO, rather, I felt he needed to land with the right coaching staff that would get him to become more efficient down-to-down and channel his explosive plays. He was so reckless in college, but you saw that raw talent on display every time he went "school yard bullsh*t" mode. So part 1: must have a good, proven QB coach who could teach him to play from within the pocket (pretty much the opposite of Fields, who is already sturdy and has solid mechanics in a clean pocket, but doesn't have the special qualities outside of structure). The stuff Mahomes had in college is stuff you can't teach, and any team who could find a way to corral it and get more consistent play out of him I felt would be landing the next Aaron Rodgers. 

The second part of the equation: not all WCOs are created equal. To say that a player "fits the WCO" undersells it a little bit. The WCO is a passing philosophy and shared terminology more than a scheme, and the amount of sub-schemes that have since branched off of it now feels endless. Most of the teams in the NFL have their own twist and varying blocking schemes. Take it from Kyle Shanahan: when a reporter sat down for a 1-on-1 interview with him to connect his implementation of the WCO and bringing it back to the Bay Area (Walsh), Kyle responded: "I don't ******* run the west coast offense." So there's that lol. Coaches don't use labels to explain their scheme, they describe it in philosophy, but for us that's too difficult. Instead, I see them in my own basic categories...

• Shanahan's WCO - pocket movement designed to get players in space and to set up aggressive big-play passing, traditional I-formation and 1TE (12 personnel & 21 personnel), wide zone blocking scheme, and primarily run from under center... run sets up the pass (heavy play-action, pre-snap motion, and roll-out usage, requiring QB to throw on the run)... run game is made up of 2 primary plays: inside/outside zone, draw plays (fool defense to think it's a pass play) are not used
• Reid's modern WCO/AR - blend of Air Raid/Vertical passing with pocket movement, spread out (heavy 3WR sets), flex blocking scheme (gap/inside zone), and primarily run out of shotgun... pass sets up the run (play-action from under center/rpo, pre-snap motion)... run game is made up of diverse running game with draws and counters and draws (make defense think pass then run)
• Baltimore's WCO - Read option merged with option-routes and plays designed to the middle of the field (2WR/2TE/2RB), flex blocking scheme (power/man), primarily run out of shotgun... run sets up the pass (all play-action is RPO; limited roll-out usage)... run game is power-running scheme with RPO based (make defense think run then pass)  
• Gruden/McCarthy/Payton's WCO - the closest thing to Walsh's WCO but modernized... conservative, ball-control oriented passing, blend of inline, bunch, and spread out looks (heavy 3WR sets), flex blocking scheme (gap/man/inside zone), and primarily run from the shotgun... pass sets up the run... run game is made up of diverse running game with draws and counters and draws (make defense think pass then run)

Yes, I think Mahomes would have fit into all of them to some degree, and I think he would've been successful as long as he was awarded the time and coaching necessary to get him into the right headspace, but Reid's modernized version- which incorporates a ton of spread and Air Raid (which Mahomes played in college)-allows him to get the ball out of his hands quickly on ball control plays and then allows him to pick and choose when he's ready to make plays outside of structure. I think he honestly landed in the perfect spot. Is that to say he wouldn't have been a great QB if say the Saints moved up for him? No, because Payton would've used him more like he did Romo than Brees because he's adaptable. That being said, I'm very opposed to the thought that John Morton and Jeremy Bates would've gotten the most out of him in this chaotic environment that lacked the weapons, stability, and coaching to develop a raw and reckless player. Bates knew how to coach a QB, but not great, and he was not a good play-caller... he didn't put the QB in as good of positions as he could have game-plan wise. 

 

Now if we were to dive deep on Fields it would be a different angle. I think Fields is more refined mechanically and a much better decision-maker than Mahomes was, but he's not as loose-armed/doesn't have as much throw-power (no one does), he's not as flexible of an athlete as a thrower nor does he consistently throw off-platform as well (feels more comfortable in the pocket). I don't know where he is on the board, but I'm assuming he's at least good... the OSU offense was more predetermined than TT was though. I think if you told me Fields was going to play in an "Air" Erhardt-Perkins option-styled offense and awarded time, I would take him over Mahomes as a prospect if they were in the same draft class. If you told me it's going to be one of the offenses above, I'd take Mahomes. If you gave me all of them and threw Zach Wilson into the mix, I'm taking him over all. It's not that I think he'll be the next Mahomes, but to me, it's really easy to project his game and at the very least he should be a very good, Matthew Stafford-like QB. Maybe better, maybe worse, but I feel that's a safe projection, whereas Mahomes/Fields are more volatile and depended on scheme/coaching/situation... ultimately this is just my perspective, and I'm not expecting you to take it as gospel either... you have your perspective and that's great; I just love talking X-Os and football strategy/philosophy

My QB evaluation is much more simple.  Special arm talent is always the trump card.  When you have said arm talent it generally moves you to the front of my line assuming some minimum measurables threshold are met and no character concerns.  Mahomes had that special arm a la Rodgers, Stafford, George, Cutler...etc.  If I was in the camp that put Wilson in that tier of arm talent, he’d be my #1 QB too.  Alas, I don’t view his arm talent to be at that level.  

Short of elite arm talent, I fall back to the best combination of traits w/ enough evidence of aptitude and desire to maximize their potential.  Josh Allen was that for me in 2018 and Fields is that for me in 2021.  Too often I see Jets fans elevate or downgrade QB prospects based on their belief in our current CS’s ability or inability to develop.  We tend to lean towards the perceived most ready prospect as opposed to who we think could be the best under the right environment (i.e., most upside).  Aside from having lightning quick release and the propensity to throw off platform more often, I don’t see any thing Wilson does so much better than Fields that the gap could not be closed via coaching and personal development.  On the other hand Fields will likely always be bigger, faster, stronger...etc.  

Some put tremendous value in having a quick release; I can respect that.  My only counter to that is that there are good and bad QBs with quick releases.  In fact, Shanahan, whose offense we will be running, might be replacing his quick release QB with Fields in a couple of weeks.  With regards to off platform throws, if it’s something your QB is doing often, then generally there is something wrong with your offensive line and/or QB.  Having the “ability” to throw off platform should be the requirement not the “tendency” to IMO.

[Philc1]

2 hours ago, RogerVick1980 said:

Odds in Vegas have jumped up for Fields going to SF.

I think that’s an overreaction to people  seeing Shanahan talking and smiling with Fields and people running with it.

Fields - if he does pan out in the nfl - his ceiling is essentially Kaepernick when he has Jim Harbaugh micromanaging him

 

I’ve seen some interviews of him.  His attitude is not great and I suspect he’s been doing badly in interviews and that is why he’s dropping.  He did transfer out of Georgia because he couldn’t get along with the coaching staff tho there was a incident I won’t be discussing to be fair.

[adobolo2]

Hope joe douglas reads this from Casserly.....take Pitts at #2 and fields at #23 ????

 

[Philc1]

2 minutes ago, adobolo2 said:

Hope joe douglas reads this from Casserly.....take Pitts at #2 and fields at #23 ????

 

If that happens that would be our best draft in a very long time 

[Big_Slick]

8 hours ago, bitonti said:

After watching Sams happy feet /off platform mechanics for 3 years I just want the next guy to set his feet and throw it on time 

This whole off platform mechanics thing is not as impressive as everyone hypes it to be 

I'd rather they build a line than rely on kids to play schoolyard ball 

Unfortunately it looks like JD has decided to go with the QB with the off platform mechanics ability rather than trading down and building the teams foundation.

[Big_Slick]

7 hours ago, Paradis said:

And you missed the point, like an 18 yr old. It’s not about you. It’s about not inciting friction on the board. Be better than that. 

I agree with FidelioJet. All indications point to Wilson being the pick. No friction. 99% It's what's going to happen.

[RogerVick1980]

19 minutes ago, Big_Slick said:

Unfortunately it looks like JD has decided to go with the QB with the off platform mechanics ability rather than trading down and building the teams foundation.

We have tons of draft picks and  cap space going forward to keep improving the foundation.

I don’t get why some of you act like if we draft Wilson then we’re handcuffed from improving this team at all  for the next 5 years.

 

 

[legler82]

Simms hedging a tiny but.  

 

[Big_Slick]

25 minutes ago, RogerVick1980 said:

We have tons of draft picks and  cap space going forward to keep improving the foundation.

I don’t get why some of you act like if we draft Wilson then we’re handcuffed from improving this team at all  for the next 5 years.

 

 

Yes we have the draft picks to start building the foundation but we'll have to wait until the end of day 2 to find out.

If we take a CB, edge and a RB with three of the first four picks Wilson will be running for his life.

[Jet Nut]

4 hours ago, legler82 said:

You completely missed my point and I take offense to no one thought Allen would be where he is.

I was for taking Allen and caught a lot of grief.  I know all the crap I took for saying those off the chart physical traits were too tempting.  At best Allen was the 3rd or 4th choice for most.  I went back and forth with one of our long time posters who thought I was crazy when I said comp % doesn't = inaccurate 

 

[RogerVick1980]

14 minutes ago, Big_Slick said:

Yes we have the draft picks to start building the foundation but we'll have to wait until the end of day 2 to find out.

If we take a CB, edge and a RB with three of the first four picks Wilson will be running for his life.

Let’s wait and see what we do in the draft. Also this isn’t a one year thing.. next year is still gonna be rebuild mode we’re not gonna be a playoff team next year it’s about building.