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I see them drafting another end fairly early in the draft.  Gregory Rousseau could be a good fit and seems to be falling in mock drafts.  The 49ers used a lot of resources on the defensive line.  
 

I think people are sleeping on Phillips.  He could be a good surprise in the new scheme.  
 

I also see Fatukasi traded.  An ideal partner would be the Falcons who may be moving on from a guy like Deion Jones at LB.  Fatukasi would fit better in their new defense, and Jones would be an ideal fit here.  
 

I am a little worried about Rankins health wise, but Shepherd and Franklin Meyers (along with Phillips at times) should be good enough for Now.  

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good explanation of the 4-3 versus 3-4. as an arm chair fan i always picture many of these guys being interchangeable.  there's a little nuances to be considered with regard to the guy's size and speed.  here's to hoping the change to 4-3 pays off.

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13 hours ago, Butterfield said:

I see them drafting another end fairly early in the draft.  Gregory Rousseau could be a good fit and seems to be falling in mock drafts.  The 49ers used a lot of resources on the defensive line.  
 

I think people are sleeping on Phillips.  He could be a good surprise in the new scheme.  
 

I also see Fatukasi traded.  An ideal partner would be the Falcons who may be moving on from a guy like Deion Jones at LB.  Fatukasi would fit better in their new defense, and Jones would be an ideal fit here.  
 

I am a little worried about Rankins health wise, but Shepherd and Franklin Meyers (along with Phillips at times) should be good enough for Now.  

I agree, it seems like pick 23 will def be an edge based on how the draft will fall

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I think we look to trade Foley Fatukasi at some point. He’s very good but the DL rotation we used in past years is not Robert Saleh’s thing. Saleh will play the studs for more downs than Williams did. Between Rankin’s, Quinnen, Shepherd (good fit for this defense) and the inside out diversity of JFM and Kyle Phillips there will be a log jam for snaps and Foley could bring in a high draft pick. 

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14 hours ago, clayton163v said:

Well the Jets have gone and done it.  We have abandoned the 3-4 two-gap system and switched to a 4-3 one-gap system.  These gaps refer to the spaces between the offensive lineman.  To the left and right of the Center is the "A" gap and the space between the Guard and Tackle is the "B" gap.  In a 3-4 system, the Nose Tackle is responsible for the "A" gap on either side of the Center.  Hence the name "two-gap" as the Nose must watch both gaps.  The ends on either side must watch the inside gap between the Guard and Tackle and the outside gap wide of the Tackle.  In a 3-4 alignment the defensive lineman must stand his ground, read the play and make the tackle inside the A or B gaps.  While there are variations on the theme, that is the basic idea.

In a 4-3 defense, the defensive lineman attacks the gap that they are assigned in a given alignment.  They work in tandem with the linebackers to plug holes and prevent open running lanes.  The Jets will now feature the 4-3 and it requires a change in personnel.  Some personnel, like Quinnen Williams and Kyle Phillips, are scheme versatile.  They can play two-gap or one-gap both inside and outside and remain effective.  As a general rule, 3-4 lineman need more size to stand their ground and 4-3 lineman must have some quickness to penetrate gaps.  The alignment will frequently shift right or left in unison or stunt far more often than is seen with a 3-4. 

A 4-3 alignment requires a pass rushing defensive end who can bend around the Tackle and rush the passer.  The Jets signed Carl Lawson to do just that.  Quick and fast, Lawson has shown that he can bend the edge and drive NFL tackles crazy with his movement.  It is more than just sacks.  On passing downs, Lawson will be able to shut off his side of the line which allows the interior lineman to collapse the pocket.  It has been a long time since the Jets had a bona fide pass rusher (John Abraham was the last one).  I am looking forward to seeing what Lawson can do with a decent pass rush coming up the middle.  The downside of Lawson is he is not an ideal every down player.  When the other team runs at him I expect us to shift right or send the MIke into his B gap.  We can expect him to come off the field on short yardage and be sent after the QB on passing downs.   While we will flip him from side to side, he will only appear at defensive end and only come up the middle on stunts.     

Quinnen WIlliams was the top lineman of a deep class due to his scheme versatility.  Ourlads wrote "He is a tough assignment to block because he can alter his approach snap to snap. It is hard to find such elite levels of play across multiple styles."  As a result, there will be little drop off in his play as we switch to the 4-3.  He is the young star of our line and will continue to cause havoc.  He can penetrate playing one-gap and stand his ground playing two-gap.  He is equally effective against the run and the pass.  He will only come off the field for a blow as opposed to certain situations like Lawson.  Unlike the 3-4 where Quinnen never played the nose, in the 4-3 he is a threat to appear at any of the four positions and in any role for a particular alignment.  We have collected a number of defensive lineman with quality inside out ability who possess scheme versatility. 

Sheldon Rankins was a real coup for the Jets.  We needed an experienced 4-3 tackle and he is a good fit for the new scheme.  This guy is a genuine pest and has plenty of NFL experience.  Playing alongside Quinnen on passing downs and in the regular defense, opposing offensive lines will have their hands full trying to keep him out of the backfield.  Rankins is a disruptive presence.  Like Quinnen Williams, he is scheme versatile and will be effective anywhere on the defensive line.  He too will come out only when he needs a blow.

While there will be an all out competition to start at the other end in our new alignment, I expect Kyle Phillips to emerge as the starter when all is said and done.  Kyle played remarkably well for us in a 3-4 as a two-gap five technique.  He demonstrated that he can stand his ground but also showed excellent range.  I think he is a better fit for a 4-3 alignment due to his range.  But he cannot be pigeonholed as a defensive end, he has inside out versatility.  Like Rankins, I expect Phillips to appear anywhere on the line and in any role.  In many ways, he was more effective than both Quinnen Williams and Leonard Williams during his rookie season.  I bet Coach Saleh is looking forward to his return to health.  I know I am.   

Vincent Curry has arrived on a one-year "prove it" deal for short money.  He may turn out to be a steal if he has anything left in the tank.  He has proven adept throughout his career as a pass rushing end in a 4-3 alignment.  I expect him to give Kyle Phillips a run for his money as the starting defensive end but think he will lose out to the versatile Phillips.  Nevertheless, I expect him to emerge on passing downs with fresh legs and loaded for bear.   

Jabari Zuniga had a lost rookie season.  His high ankle sprain knocked him out for half the year and stole the explosiveness that made him a high draft pick.  Ourlads warned that he was "built for the trenches from the knees up but has basketball player calves and ankles."  Well, the downside of his draft grade got him last season and the worry that he will suffer lower leg injury proved correct.  But  like Rankins, Phillips and Quinnen he is scheme versatile and is a genuine pass rushing threat.  A solid NFL comparison for him is Justin Tuck.  Like Tuck, when he is healthy he can be difficult to stop inside on passing downs.  At least that is the hope.  When healthy in college he demonstrated a lot of quality tape in his four years as a starter.  Now lets all hope he can stay healthy and carve out a role in our new defense.  I do not see him starting but ideally he will join Quinnen, Curry,  Lawson and Rankins in our pass rushing defensive alignment playing inside at the three technique. 

John Franklin-Myers emerged for the Jets playing two-gap end in our 3-4 as the five technique when Kyle Phillips when down last year.  He proved that he can rush the passer and protect his gaps.  For him to remain effective in the new alignment he will have to penetrate his gap and make tackles.  For him to start at 4-3 end he will need to show he has the range to set the edge.  He has the size to play inside but is not the ideal 4-3 defensive end.  He has much to prove.  I agree that he was a nice surprise last season, but this is a very different alignment and unlike Kyle Williams, he did not demonstrate range across the line of scrimmage. 

Folorunso Fatukasi really emerged these last two seasons and held up just fine after the late season trade of McClendon to the Bucs.  But in a penetrating 4-3 alignment, he will have to demonstrate that he can disrupt the play and reset the line of scrimmage.  Unlike our other defensive tackles, Fatukasi is no threat to line up at end.  Built like a tank, he is a bull who is tough to move and proved an ideal "0" technique nose tackle.  As a defensive tackle he will still be useful on short yardage but I cannot see him dislodging Quinnen, Rankins and Phillips inside in our starting alignment.  He is too one-demensional for a 4-3 tackle.  I would not be surprised to see him and/or John Frankin-Myers traded during training camp for a low round draft pick. 

Nathan Shepard is a giant end who is well suited to the 3-4.  In a 4-3, he becomes a defensive tackle.  He has had an up and down career for the Jets thus far.  I see him as a decent option at tackle inside particularly if we move Fatukasi and/or Myers.  He is on the bubble.

Bryce Huff will have to make the team as a defensive end.  His primary competition will come from John Franklin-Myers.  However, unlike Franklin-Myers, he lacks scheme versatility to play inside.  While I like him as a stand up pass rusher with enough movement skills to play outside linebacker in a 3-4, he will have to put his hand in the dirt and beat out more versatile players.  I do not see it but would be delighted to see him prove me wrong.  He is on the bubble.

Tanzel Smart is a short tough tackle who likely does not have the movement skills to make the Jets in their new 4-3 scheme.  He is on the bubble.

The players we have on the bubble will be at the mercy of the upcoming draft.  I think the Jets will be faced with the reality that the best player on the board at 23 will likely be one of the pass rushing defensive ends like Paye or Phillips.  I too want offense.  But value is value and we were 2-14.  

 

Thank you very much for your insightful, educational post!

But I completely disagree with you regarding the #23 pick.  You might be 100% correct, in that the best value will be at defensive end.  But we are devoid of talent on the offensive line, wide receiver and cornerback, and there will be excellent value at one or more of those 3 positions at #23.

"Need" must be factored in the decision making process of this draft, and to ignore the need to pick the best player at #23 is a huge mistake IMO.

Becton and Mims addressed (2) huge needs in last years draft, and the Jets must address the (3) biggest needs in our #2 pick, our #23 pick, and our #34 pick.  Getting a starter of need at these three draft positions is an absolute must!

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14 hours ago, Beerfish said:

I have been hoping to go to a 4-3 for many years now. 

To me it simply allows your good Dlineman to have a much bigger impact.

It also allows for a larger pool of Dline players rather than the NT and 3/4 DE thing,

I agree man.  Creating pressure with the 4 Down Linemen is best case imo.  

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Good discussion 4-3 vs 3-4. Lots of insight into how these formations differ.

Comes across as a bit optimistic. This is the Jets we are talking about. But I am on your side.

I think JD will focus on other areas in the draft. But if the value is there he will go bpa.

OL!  I feel like a broken record. 

 

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6 hours ago, Alka said:

Thank you very much for your insightful, educational post!

But I completely disagree with you regarding the #23 pick.  You might be 100% correct, in that the best value will be at defensive end.  But we are devoid of talent on the offensive line, wide receiver and cornerback, and there will be excellent value at one or more of those 3 positions at #23.

"Need" must be factored in the decision making process of this draft, and to ignore the need to pick the best player at #23 is a huge mistake IMO.

Becton and Mims addressed (2) huge needs in last years draft, and the Jets must address the (3) biggest needs in our #2 pick, our #23 pick, and our #34 pick.  Getting a starter of need at these three draft positions is an absolute must!

What we need and what is best value are two different things.  It is possible that Jenkins or Vera-Tucker are available at 23.  They are good value there.  But only because they offer versatility since they can play tackle.  They are not necessarily better than "guard only" players who are FAR cheaper in terms of draft capital.  Same with Moore or Bateman at wideout.  But if Paye or Phillips are also there, they are harder to find players.  You cannot find guys with their potential late in the draft and are much better value - from draft to draft - at 23.  Both would be instant starters at 4-3 defensive end.  The way I look at this draft, I have concluded that this is the most likely scenario.  

I too want offense.  But small receivers like Moore and Bateman, can be found later.  I say this even though I LOVE both players.  I really do.

On the line we desperately need guards but "guard only" players with solid starting grades can be found in the 5th round.  Last year, one of the guards with a 3d round grade who was projected as a starter - Onwenu - went to the Patriots in the 6th round and started all 16 games at right tackle.  The best guard in last year's draft went in the fourth round (Solomon Kindley - Fins).  ALL of the other guards with starting grades ended up in the starting lineup too.   I would draft the guards with starting grades beginning with our 4th round pick and I would continue to draft them - along with linebackers - until I have at least two of them and would not be averse to three if that is how the draft unfolds.   It is a question of value, utility and the distribution of starting players across the league.  There are a lot of late round picks starting at linebacker and guard.

I cannot justify passing up a quality starting defensive end when I know we will be drafting guards and linebackers late in the draft who will have a genuine chance to start and will surely make the team.

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3 hours ago, addage said:

Good discussion 4-3 vs 3-4. Lots of insight into how these formations differ.

Comes across as a bit optimistic. This is the Jets we are talking about. But I am on your side.

I think JD will focus on other areas in the draft. But if the value is there he will go bpa.

OL!  I feel like a broken record. 

 

Of course it is optimistic.  I am a homer and proud of it.  😀 

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I'm not interested in whether they call it a 4-3 or 3-4 base defense. That formation is likely going to be used less than 30% of the time. The nickel defense is likely to be the most frequently used formation. Also, wasn't Saleh the leader (by # of snaps) using a 5-2 defense over the last couple years? 

Considering the Bills lead the league in using 11 personnel and we're likely to see a massive uptick in that formation from the Dolphins (I don't know wth the patriots will do since they don't have someone capable of throwing the ball on their team right now).. it seems that whether the Jets use a 3-4 or a 4-3 matters less than ever. The "base" defense is a thing of the past. 

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2 hours ago, clayton163v said:

What we need and what is best value are two different things.  It is possible that Jenkins or Vera-Tucker are available at 23.  They are good value there.  But only because they offer versatility since they can play tackle.  They are not necessarily better than "guard only" players who are FAR cheaper in terms of draft capital.  Same with Moore or Bateman at wideout.  But if Paye or Phillips are also there, they are harder to find players.  You cannot find guys with their potential late in the draft and are much better value - from draft to draft - at 23.  Both would be instant starters at 4-3 defensive end.  The way I look at this draft, I have concluded that this is the most likely scenario.  

I too want offense.  But small receivers like Moore and Bateman, can be found later.  I say this even though I LOVE both players.  I really do.

On the line we desperately need guards but "guard only" players with solid starting grades can be found in the 5th round.  Last year, one of the guards with a 3d round grade who was projected as a starter - Onwenu - went to the Patriots in the 6th round and started all 16 games at right tackle.  The best guard in last year's draft went in the fourth round (Solomon Kindley - Fins).  ALL of the other guards with starting grades ended up in the starting lineup too.   I would draft the guards with starting grades beginning with our 4th round pick and I would continue to draft them - along with linebackers - until I have at least two of them and would not be averse to three if that is how the draft unfolds.   It is a question of value, utility and the distribution of starting players across the league.  There are a lot of late round picks starting at linebacker and guard.

I cannot justify passing up a quality starting defensive end when I know we will be drafting guards and linebackers late in the draft who will have a genuine chance to start and will surely make the team.

I think my feelings on this subject have been molded by the many, many years of being a Jets fan and watching the Jets draft players over the years.

Question:  Can you tell me the last time the Jets drafted an offensive lineman in the 4th round or later that turned into a gem?  I actually can only think of Brian Winters in the 3rd round, and he had his flaws.  So, let me say in the 3rd round or later?  To my recollection, history has not been kind to the Jets picking any offensive linemen in the 3rd round or later that really became a winner for the Jets.  Please don't tell me Joe Fields, because that was like forever ago.

My point is an obvious one: The Jets have a history of failure on the offensive line with players not drafted in the first or second round.  If you don't learn from history, you will repeat it.  I'm sorry, but I want certainty.  I want the Jets to draft a offensive lineman with either the 23rd pick or the 34th pick.  With JD ignoring the offensive line this offseason, and this unit needing upgrades, it would be criminal to ignore this unit until the 3rd round or later, especially with our new quarterback coming in and needing some protection.  

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13 minutes ago, Alka said:

 

Question:  Can you tell me the last time the Jets drafted an offensive lineman in the 4th round or later that turned into a gem?  I actually can only think of Brian Winters in the 3rd round, and he had his flaws.  So, let me say in the 3rd round or later?  To my recollection, history has not been kind to the Jets picking any offensive linemen in the 3rd round or later that really became a winner for the Jets.  Please don't tell me Joe Fields, because that was like forever ago.

 

Well part of the challenge is we have drafted so few of them overall the past decade.

So I looked.  I came up with either Brandon Shell in the 5th round of 2016 but I'm not sure he qualifies as a gem, or else Jason Fabini in the 4th round of the 1998 draft.

That is sad.

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9 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Well part of the challenge is we have drafted so few of them overall the past decade.

So I looked.  I came up with either Brandon Shell in the 5th round of 2016 but I'm not sure he qualifies as a gem, or else Jason Fabini in the 4th round of the 1998 draft.

That is sad.

Unfortunately Brandon Shell doesn't qualify, since he didn't last with the Jets. He was gone after 2 or 3 years.  

Jason Fabini was drafted 23 years ago.  That was the last time that the Jets drafted someone after the 2nd round that was a gem.  

I will repeat myself:  The Jets must draft an offensive lineman with either the #23 or #34 pick!!!

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Quinnen, Lawson, Rankins, Fatukasi, JFM, Curry, Zuniga, Huff.  

I'm not sure you can really declare Edge a need at anywhere near the level of OL at this point.  Heck, you could even argue OLB is a bigger need.  That lineup is pretty good.  A lot depends on what we can get at the other DE spot (Curry maybe?) but unless there is a real imbalance in value, I am not so sure we'll draft a DE at #23.

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11 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Quinnen, Lawson, Rankins, Fatukasi, JFM, Curry, Zuniga, Huff.  

I'm not sure you can really declare Edge a need at anywhere near the level of OL at this point.  Heck, you could even argue OLB is a bigger need.  That lineup is pretty good.  A lot depends on what we can get at the other DE spot (Curry maybe?) but unless there is a real imbalance in value, I am not so sure we'll draft a DE at #23.

Can never have enough pass rushers. But I'm OK with either O-line or edge at #23.

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Excellent post! I haven't seen you around, but welcome to the board!

As I stated the other day in a different thread I fully expect Saleh to take a few guys from our front seven and switch their positions and roles. Obviously this is to be expected due to the change in scheme.

Don't know if I agree with your assessment of pick 23 as I think we need a Center. That's the base of your offense QB, LT, OC.

However with all the picks we have I don't rule out JD trading up or down as we need help at pretty much every position on the team in all three phases.

Seriously if we stay at 23 could you argue that we shouldn't go O'line? CB, WR, EDGE, RB, OLB? What the hell don't we need? Lol at some point I expect a safety and a kicker cuz we don't have any of those either!

Very interesting and intriguing time for Jets fans, there's a lot on the horizon.

 Anyway like I said welcome to the board that was a good read.

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Good read. Mostly agree except with picking DE at 23. Value or not I think JD really needs to draft for need on offense. Sure the defense has holes but there still seems to be this thought process on the board that we need to fix the defense before addressing offense, and offensive players can be "gotten later". We have used this philosophy for like a decade, and it has really hurt is.

IMO the Jets need to go into the draft with the thought that we will need to win games 34-24 this year and then plug up the defense next year. I am not saying don't draft any defensive players I am saying the Jets need to pause on selecting defense with their higher picks. 

When we drafted Sam we went defense 3 of the 4 next picks and the 1 that was offense was a non blocking TE. We cannot repeat that mistake.

You "might" be able to get an OK offensive lineman later but in general high picks on OL and especially OG are among the safest of all picks in the draft.

I would greatly prefer a Top OG than use that pick on an end. EDGE, defensive line and CB are among the riskiest of picks.

We are taking a QB at #2. If we want to have him last 12-15 years then we need to get the best offensive help possible. To be honest I would be OK with every pick used on offense. Carolina did it with defense last year and no one really blinked an eye.

My gut feel is we will be much better at rushing the QB with 4 under Saleh, but slightly worse against the run. 

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