Our Corners and Safetys

[clayton163v]

Last year the Jets played a lot of man to man press coverage with a one high safety.  In that alignment - against two wide receivers - the free safety provides deep help and the strong safety opportunistically attacks the line of scrimmage.   When a corner makes a mistake - for example - on a stop and go, the free safety must be able to get over the top to help out or the corner can get burned.   This famously happened in the Raider game last year when Carr chucked it to Ruggs on a stop and go and smoked Lamar Jackson to beat us with five seconds left in the game.  Just one bad step can burn you in man to man.  Especially when the safety is playing one high as it was there.  Why we were not in cover two is a good question.  Why poor Lamar Jackson was in off coverage was an even better question.  In off coverage, the player lines up five to ten yards off the line of scrimmage.  The Jets blamed Gregg Williams and he got canned.  I bring up this awful memory (or glorious celebration if you were in the tank for Trevor club) to illustrate the gambling nature of man to man coverage.  It allows you to blitz, but it isolates and exposes defensive backs to a touchdown burn over a single wrong step.  In the case of Lamar Jackson, it can also expose a player's shortcomings.  Lamar is a bump and run corner who is adept at press and bail technique.  To ask him to play off coverage in man to man is asking for it.  It is not his strength.  To play him off the line is to be wooden-headed about your scheme as you jam a square peg into a round hole.  However, press and bail coverage is ideal for a zone scheme.  A zone scheme - by definition - always provides help to a corner who is responsible for an area and hands off the coverage as it progresses.

Safeties in a matchup zone will frequently find themselves responsible for coverage as a route progresses.  The corner will hand off the receiver as the safety comes into coverage.  As players cross the field, they get handed off.  Linebackers also have coverage responsibilities.  A Safety's ability to read run/pass is critical to a matchup zone.  Unlike single-high alignments.  Matchup zones frequently use safeties interchangeably and blur the distinction between strong and free safety.  The scheme places an emphasis on teamwork and requires the right personnel to make it work.  Big corners who can tackle and press at the line of scrimmage are at a premium.  As are safeties who can cover.  Smaller corners who can run with speedy wideouts are less important. 

This year, we will be playing a lot of matchup zone with multiple looks and a lot of 4-2-5 and 3-2-6 coverage schemes depending on down, distance and place on the field.  This scheme puts its emphasis on a secondary that can read run/pass, press and bail and tackle running backs together as a unit.  While Rex Ryan liked to blitz with man to man coverage, he also used a lot of disguised matchup zone where the defensive lineman dropped into shallow coverage to allow the strong safety or linebackers to blitz.  Herman Edwards used a great deal of cover two with matchup zone.  Both schemes prevent the big play so long as the secondary can tackle.  While the Jets of the last few years used some zone, we were primarily a man to man team and we used a lot of off coverage.  It was a misuse of our personnel imo.

Our new coach's modus operandi uses press and bail coverage and a matchup zone.  Given our personnel, it makes a lot of sense.

Bryce Hall came to the Jets as a fifth round pick in last year's draft.  He suffered a profound injury to his lower leg the previous year and was a gamble by the front office.  Nevertheless, Ourlads still gave him a second round grade.  He missed the first half of the season and was inserted into the starting lineup the moment he became active.  Asked to play off coverage with a lot of man to man, he showed his draft grade and was stout the rest of the way.  This was remarkable when you consider he is a big corner who is adept at press coverage and is at home on the line of scrimmage.  He played well anyway.  While many on the board complain that our corners are the weak link on the defense since they are composed of a bunch of late round picks and undrafted free agents.  I strongly disagree.  Bryce Hall was a coveted player and a certain first round pick were it not for the injury late in his final year in college.  The severity of his injury and the league-wide knowledge that he would not be healed until late in the year is why teams shied away from him.  It had nothing to do with his pre-draft pedigree which was stellar.  Yet despite the injury, he still carried a second round grade.  C'mon.  We already have a draftee who can claim the right to be the number one corner on the Jets and that is Bryce Hall.  It is not where you draft a player.  It is what the pro scouts think of them and the scheme they will be asked to execute as a professional.  You need to be a good fit.  That Hall played well in a scheme that did not utilize this strengths bodes well for him.  I think the sky is the limit.  His injury was so severe, that he was not fully healed last season.  He will be 100% come training camp.  I am looking forward to it. 

Bless Austin came to the Jets as a sixth round pick in 2019.  He too fell in the draft due to injury.  In his case, he had blown out a knee.  Something he had already done twice going back to high school.  But the truth is if you rehab these injuries and you are young, you can come back even stronger than before.   He fell in the draft because of the injury and because the league knew of his previous injury history and the fact that he would not be ready until later in the season - if at all.  When he got activated, he turned heads and got on the field even though he was not 100%.  He had a lot riding on his second year on the Jets.  After a player is drafted, a team hopes that the player will adopt a professional attitude and develop.  Austin knew going into camp that we had not only drafted a corner, we had traded for a veteran during the draft and signed another to be our number one. 

This is what Bless Austin looked like when he came to camp:

The word is RIPPED.  He came to camp a man possessed.  Fully healthy, it soon became obvious to the coaches that he and Lamar Jackson - see infra - were WAY better than the castoffs from the Colts.  Both Desir and Wilson were CUT to make room for the kids.  Furthermore, as boundary corners, they were better than Brien Poole who was sent back to the nickle where he turned in a fine season - for awhile.   Austin was the Jets #1 corner for much of the season.  Despite being asked to play off the ball and also in man to man, he seized and held onto the starting job.  Yes, it was an up and down season.  But a good part of that was the scheme for which he was a poor fit.  He is a perfect player for the matchup zone that Saleh intends to run.  The zone scheme requires corners to have size since they will have to press receivers at the boundary.  They will then have to bail and cover until they hand off the receiver to the next box in the zone.  A key feature is the ability to read run/pass and get involved in the tackle on running plays.  As anyone who watched last season knows.  Bless Austin can tackle.  He hits so hard I worry about it given his injury history.  Our young corners are the brightest position group on the entire team and it is not just Hall and Austin.

Lamar Jackson came to the Jets as one of three undrafted free agent corners hoping to get noticed.  Bigger than Hall or Austin, Jackson is an ideal press and bail corner.  As we saw in his matchup finale against the Raiders, he is not a man to man corner.  So what?  Yes, he had his ups and downs.  But he did have his ups.  Lamar Jackson started nearly half the season!  Sent two veterans into the street.  Desir was picked up by the Ravens and went straight into the game (including the playoffs).  Jackson is a big press corner who tackles well and was asked to do too much last season as a rookie.  He fits what Saleh wants from his corners to a "T".  He is a rough tackler who has value to a team that is running a match up zone.  Said Ourlads:  "Size makes him attractive for a team that plays a lot of press. Will need to develop as a zone corner."  He is exactly what we would need to acquire were he not already on the Jets.  As those who have been reading my posts know, the NFL is all about finding players who possess the traits that fit the scheme that the team utilizes.  Lamar Jackson is a fit.  It is as simple as that.  Yes, he was free stuff (he carried a 6th round grade out of Nebraska).  But that does not diminish his value as a fit in the new scheme.  And boundary corners are harder to find than nickle backs.  We have three that fit our scheme.

Javelin Guidry was another of the undrafted free agents who came to the Jets hoping to get noticed.  His clocked 4.25 40 would have been the fastest at the combine had he been invited out of Utah.  Ourlads gave him a 6th round grade and said: "He projects to slot corner on a team that emphasizes press".  They note he is a solid tackler.  Gentleman, Poole - despite his fine year - missed the last seven games of the season.  Guess who was our starting nickle?  Yes.  It was Guidry.  And he played well enough that the Jets have not yet resigned Poole.  We may yet do so.  I think the Jets will be opportunistic at corner.  But it is by no means a priority.  If we cut any of these four young corners, they will be picked up instantly and will make the active roster.  I see no reason to try to replace them. 

Rounding out the depth are Corey Ballentine who is a castoff from the Giants and the veteran Bennett Jackson.  Neither took playing time from the three rookies and are no threat to take their jobs imo.  I fully expect the Jets to add another Corner.  It will be in the draft or a veteran free agent.  Many have mentioned Richard Sherman.  I like that idea so long as he realizes he is here to mentor the youngsters and his time as the man who stirs the drink is past.  I suspect that the Jets have made this clear via the $ we are offering (i e - a one year offer for short money - see Vincent Curry).

At Safety, the Jets have tagged Marcus Maye and he has signed it.  It is my hope that the Jets intend to extend him after the draft.  Maye is a solid and versatile Safety who can play both free or strong and has shown he can read run/pass and close on the ball.  I am not sure what else the man can do to prove he belongs.  I have no doubt that if the Jets let him test the market, he will be gone in an instant.  If he played for somebody else, he would be changing teams.  But the Jets are so bereft of talent, that he got the tag.  It is ironic that his tag number is less than he would yield on the open market.  As for this season, Maye's versatility makes him ideal for the new scheme.  He can cover, help out deep or read run from the deep safety spot and close on the line of scrimmage to make the tackle.  How many times have we seen him make a tackle on the line of scrimmage and how many times have we been burned by a failure to make the right read?  I will tell you.  Often and almost never.   He is a good fit for the scheme and is a key for this season.

Lamarcus Joyner is a newcomer to the Jets and is another good fit for the scheme.  He can play the deep safety and has plenty of experience in zone coverage.  He is both versatile and has had some salad days during his career.  Here's hoping that he has plenty of tread on his tire.  We are going to need it.

Ashtyn Davis had mixed bag of a season last year.  At times he looked lost at the free safety spot and contributed little to either the run or pass.  Towards the end of the season we saw some progress.  As a prospect coming out of the draft, he carried a mid-second round grade.  I thought he was clearly the BAP when we grabbed him in the third.  Said Ourlads:  "Can chase all over the field and is consistently around the ball. Solid zone defender with range and angles to the ball."  I thought his rookie year was a disappointment.  Since he is suited to zone and was highly touted, let's hope he makes the leap this year.  There isn't much depth behind Davis. 

We really need Joyner and/or Davis to develop since Maye cannot do it alone.  I expect us to add a safety in the draft.  Given that I expect us to extend Maye, Joyner is a solid veteran and Davis was a relatively high draft choice that draftee/undrafted free agent should be in the later rounds. 

Many want to draft a corner at 23 or 34.  I believe this is an error.  While there are some good corners that should be available, that does not mean they are a fit for a matchup zone scheme.  In my opinion we already have the young corners that fit our new scheme.  Moreover, two of them were highly touted prospects who fell to the Jets solely due to injury.  Hall and Austin are the high draft picks that many are clamoring for (this is the sort of English up with which I will not put).  I think it is folly to give up on them.  This is doubly true when you consider that all have shown promise even though it was a rookie + first year show towards the end of the season.  It was when Hall, Austin, Guidry and Jackson were playing together that I realized that the Jets were not going to go 0-16.  With a scheme that fits these young players, all we need is a pass rush.  Here's hoping.

 

 

[Integrity28]

I don’t know how to scout for zone DBs, but I know this ... putting all your eggs in the basket of tight coverage, when the league penalizes tight coverage, is stupid.

Im looking forward to an absolutely ravenous front-7, and a secondary that cleans up the messes that our DL and LBers make.

[derp]

Great post. I’d also add that as Douglas likes to fill at future holes in advance, he’s already got Hall and Austin signed at least through next year. Hardee was a ST signing but presumably offers corner depth as well and is signed three years. And Ballentine is signed next year if he makes the roster. I think they can add somebody via the draft if they like but agree with you it’s less of a priority than others positions with the scheme and the guys there. Think it’s a good spot to see what they have and address holes next offseason.

Also agree they’ll draft a safety. Need another guy for depth and currently Maye and Joyner are only signed for one year. Next year is just Davis. Really hope he steps up this year.

[adobolo2]

Thank you, great post and Very insightful.

There are only 3 corners that are real 1st round talent in this draft in surtan, horn and newsome. Then there is the question mark over Farley's injury so if they don't get any of those it's a big drop of and up to Joe to find diamonds in the ruff like his did with Hall last year.

[BCJet]

Saleh's defense is an absolutely perfect for Bryce Hall.  Yes he can play press, but he is best skill is his awareness and understanding of defense which is why he will excel in this type of system.  Draft pedigree is interesting because had Hall actually been a high 2nd round pick, no one would he worried about him but because he was a 5th, he's a ?  He has the ability to be an excellent NFL player and should be able to lock down one CB spot for a long time.

I hope we wait on CB and find another player like Hall who falls for whatever reason (Ambry Thomas of Michigan for example) and who is a fit for this defense.  

[More Cowbell]

Sorry, didn't  read the whole post but in the Raiders game, Williams sent the house on that last play and left his corners on an island and got burned. With that little amount of time left, 2 S and 2 DB should have been standing on the GL and he should have subbed all the LB's for DB's and rushed 3 with everyone else dropping into coverage

 IOW's, prevent D. He did the exact opposite.  

[Sammybighead]

1 hour ago, clayton163v said:

Many want to draft a corner at 23 or 34.  I believe this is an error.

Couldn’t agree more. Offense, offense, offense, please

[Sonny Werblin]

Good post. Love your observations on Lamar Jackson. The guy really had a great season for an undrafted free agent. I was concerned that he would be thrown to the wolves after being screwed by Williams with his man coverage all out blitz in the Raider game. I have no idea how you are supposed to cover Ruggs one on one in that situation -- stay deep, he beats you on a slant and has open field ahead of him; stay up and he beats you deep.  Jackson should have punched Williams in the face after that call.

[varjet]

I agree with the general sentiment that we should mostlyroll with the DBs we have for this season.  Maybe look for value In the lower rounds/UDFA.

[peebag]

2 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

I don’t know how to scout for zone DBs, but I know this ... putting all your eggs in the basket of tight coverage, when the league penalizes tight coverage, is stupid.

Im looking forward to an absolutely ravenous front-7, and a secondary that cleans up the messes that our DL and LBers make.

see ya in 2050!

[mrcoops]

Good post, I have been saying similar things leading up to this draft.

Our team likes its young corners, and they are good fits for the Saleh scheme.

People hoping that we are going to pick man-cover CBs high are set to be disappointed. If we add to the position in this draft, it will be with mid to late round picks.

A guy like Ambry Thomas, as mentioned above, would be an ideal pick in the later rounds - a talented guy who would normally go higher, and who is a good scheme fit.

[Beerfish]

I am concerned and alarmed at the total devaluing of the secondary just because our secondary is weak ans Saleh does not put pressure on them.

You still need players, they still have to be good and be able to cover.  There are good zone busting teams.

We may not need pro bowlers at all of these spots but we need upgrades.

The incumbent CBs show promise but are really untested long term (at least hall is)

Maye is a decent player Davis was up and down.

[choon328]

I've been saying similar things about the CB's for about 5 days now in the other threads.  The 49ers drafted 3 CB's in 4 years while Saleh was the DC and none higher than the 3rd. 

In his 4 years in SF as the DC, 4 of their 8 picks in rounds 1 and 2 were on defense.  3 defensive lineman,  1 MLB. It tells you what positions they value the most on that defense. 

Also, keep in mind, over that same time period in the 1st and 2nd rounds they drafted 4 offensive players. 3 WR's, 1 Tackle. 

 

Here are some mid rd CB's that the Jets should be looking at based on a zone scheme fit:

 

Israel Mukuamu, South Carolina, 3rd-5th

Marco Wilson, Florida 3rd-5th

Deommodore Lenoir, Oregon 4th-6th

Keith Taylor, Washington 4th-6th

Thomas Graham, Oregon 4th-6th

[CTJetsFan]

1 hour ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Good post. Love your observations on Lamar Jackson. The guy really had a great season for an undrafted free agent. I was concerned that he would be thrown to the wolves after being screwed by Williams with his man coverage all out blitz in the Raider game. I have no idea how you are supposed to cover Ruggs one on one in that situation -- stay deep, he beats you on a slant and has open field ahead of him; stay up and he beats you deep.  Jackson should have punched Williams in the face after that call.

I liked Jackson too and thought he generally played well for an undrafted rookie with no off-season.

I agree that Williams' call in that situation was ridiculous. However, Jackson showed no situational awareness on that play and actually bit on Ruggs' out (or in...I forget) move.  Jackson has to know in that situation that under no circumstance can you let Ruggs get behind you with the game on the line.

[choon328]

7 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

I am concerned and alarmed at the total devaluing of the secondary just because our secondary is weak ans Saleh does not put pressure on them.

You still need players, they still have to be good and be able to cover.  There are good zone busting teams.

We may not need pro bowlers at all of these spots but we need upgrades.

The incumbent CBs show promise but are really untested long term (at least hall is)

Maye is a decent player Davis was up and down.

The scheme makes CB's look better as long as they play within it. Just like the offensive scheme makes QB's look better. The 49ers and Seahawks all rolled with young mid to late rd CBs who fit well in the scheme and they have all performed well as a unit. We're so used to being so dependent on great CB play bc of a totally opposite schematical concept that it's frightening to look at the uncertainty at CB. But the scheme itself will help alleviate the unknown. It always has.

[choon328]

3 minutes ago, CTJetsFan said:

I liked Jackson too and thought he generally played well for an undrafted rookie with no off-season.

I agree that Williams' call in that situation was ridiculous. However, Jackson showed no situational awareness on that play and actually bit on Ruggs' out (or in...I forget) move.  Jackson has to know in that situation that under no circumstance can you let Ruggs get behind you with the game on the line.

In this scheme he won't have to worry about that anymore. And his situational awareness will grow with the. He's a young kid. 

[CTJetsFan]

3 minutes ago, choon328 said:

In this scheme he won't have to worry about that anymore. And his situational awareness will grow with the. He's a young kid. 

Agree

[Lith]

Great analysis @clayton163v.  Thanks

I have been one of the guys saying we need an influx of talent at CB position, waiting for the FA signing that never came, and hoping to add a starter in day 1 otr 2.  You have talked me off the ledge.  Would still llike to see some talent added between now and the start of camp - especially given the injury history of our top 2 guys, but I am excited to see the young guys in the new scheme.

[kdels62]

Just get 1 guy that can start. 

I like Bless and Hall but Bless was bad last year. Hall was good but so was Bless as a rookie. Bring in a guy either with a high draft pick or FA to start and the secondary becomes much better.

[JetsFanShawn]

and QB RB T LB WR

[Ecuadorian Jet]

I would love Adebo as CB  and Deablo as S in the draft.  

[varjet]

JD says he is going to get a QB and build the lines.

That would tell me that at 23 his draftboard should look like:

Kwitty Paye

Creed Humphrey

AVT

Teven Jenkins.  

at 34 there should a WR replacement for Crowder.

[Ecuadorian Jet]

Just now, varjet said:

JD says he is going to get a QB and build the lines.

That would tell me that at 23 his draftboard should look like:

Kwitty Paye

Creed Humphrey

AVT

Teven Jenkins.  

at 34 there should a WR replacement for Crowder.

I hope not, the defensive line does not need such high talent help. It should be:
2:QB
23:Creed Humphrey
34: Trey Smith

[varjet]

1 hour ago, Ecuadorian Jet said:

I hope not, the defensive line does not need such high talent help. It should be:
2:QB
23:Creed Humphrey
34: Trey Smith

I don't think Paye is there, but I think he grades far higher than 23, and the Jets could use a second DE.

If you look at prior drafts Centers as gifted as Humphrey also go higher than 23.  So I think we are looking at Jenkins or one of the Gs there.

[jeremy2020]

Safetys sounds like an Egyptian god. 

 

Are you a God?

[clayton163v]

14 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

I don’t know how to scout for zone DBs, but I know this ... putting all your eggs in the basket of tight coverage, when the league penalizes tight coverage, is stupid.

Im looking forward to an absolutely ravenous front-7, and a secondary that cleans up the messes that our DL and LBers make.

I think I can help you here.  I do not know how to scout for zone corners either.  But I know somebody who does.  The Ourlads draft guide costs $40 and is well worth the money.  Unlike the pundits and websites, they do not clickbait, print photos or pitch Fanduel to your children.  Just page after page of reviews in fine print.  I want the Jets to be on the lookout for corners with useful attributes - like special teams play - who have experience in a zone system.   I do not care if they are undrafted free agents.  I would also sign a veteran for short money.

I too am looking forward to the new 4-3.  The 3-4 made sense once upon a time and still does if you land Lawrence Taylor or Terrell Suggs.  But they are such rare players.  The Jets were like Ponce De Leon for the last 20 years.  I am glad we gave up on the snipe hunt and went with a scheme that features player attributes that can actually be found.  Let's go Quinnen and Lawson!

 

13 hours ago, derp said:

Great post. I’d also add that as Douglas likes to fill at future holes in advance, he’s already got Hall and Austin signed at least through next year. Hardee was a ST signing but presumably offers corner depth as well and is signed three years. And Ballentine is signed next year if he makes the roster. I think they can add somebody via the draft if they like but agree with you it’s less of a priority than others positions with the scheme and the guys there. Think it’s a good spot to see what they have and address holes next offseason.

Also agree they’ll draft a safety. Need another guy for depth and currently Maye and Joyner are only signed for one year. Next year is just Davis. Really hope he steps up this year.

Good points about including Hardee since he is young and will be a Jet for the next three seasons.  The Saints played him last season due to injury.  He had two picks.  Perhaps Douglas sees something there.  I only know we are going to love his bat-sh!t crazy attitude on special teams coverage units.  He is the only player mentioned in the same breath with the Patriots' Mathew Slater.  That is some heady company.  I really credit Douglas for grabbing him while the Saints were dealing with salary cap issues.  I have no doubt that if we had waited, the Saints would have found the money to match our offer.

 

13 hours ago, adobolo2 said:

Thank you, great post and Very insightful.

There are only 3 corners that are real 1st round talent in this draft in surtan, horn and newsome. Then there is the question mark over Farley's injury so if they don't get any of those it's a big drop of and up to Joe to find diamonds in the ruff like his did with Hall last year.

Horn may not be a fit, but great players are great players and will thrive regardless of scheme.  Otherwise, I just cannot justify taking another corner over a bona fide pass rushing defensive end.  They are always first round picks.  As was clear, I really like our current crop of corners and WANT to roll with them.  I feel the same way about the the top safeties.

 

13 hours ago, BCJet said:

Saleh's defense is an absolutely perfect for Bryce Hall.  Yes he can play press, but he is best skill is his awareness and understanding of defense which is why he will excel in this type of system.  Draft pedigree is interesting because had Hall actually been a high 2nd round pick, no one would he worried about him but because he was a 5th, he's a ?  He has the ability to be an excellent NFL player and should be able to lock down one CB spot for a long time.

I hope we wait on CB and find another player like Hall who falls for whatever reason (Ambry Thomas of Michigan for example) and who is a fit for this defense.  

I wholeheartedly agree.  The obsession with Bryce Hall's draft spot and the failure to notice that he was a bona fide first round pick before the injury leaves me flummoxed.  Same with Austin.  Now if both were small man to man corners, I would understand a complaint that they do not fit the scheme.  I love Fatukasi, but I know he just does not fit our scheme anymore.   But Hall, Austin and Jackson are perfect fits.  I would not be surprised if Saleh discussed them during his interview, how he would use them in his defensive scheme and why he thought they would be successful.

 

13 hours ago, Sammybighead said:

Couldn’t agree more. Offense, offense, offense, please

I could not agree more.  I want offense.  I just hope that the draft falls that way for us.  I do not think we are going anywhere this season as we are in no position to reload.  We are in a full rebuild and must take the Best Available Player with our early choices. 

 

12 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Good post. Love your observations on Lamar Jackson. The guy really had a great season for an undrafted free agent. I was concerned that he would be thrown to the wolves after being screwed by Williams with his man coverage all out blitz in the Raider game. I have no idea how you are supposed to cover Ruggs one on one in that situation -- stay deep, he beats you on a slant and has open field ahead of him; stay up and he beats you deep.  Jackson should have punched Williams in the face after that call.

Not only was it daft to leave him without deep help but to have him playing off coverage was silly.  He is not Aaron Glenn.  Just watch the replay. 

 

12 hours ago, varjet said:

I agree with the general sentiment that we should mostlyroll with the DBs we have for this season.  Maybe look for value In the lower rounds/UDFA.

I would look to add a veteran corner who is a scheme fit to compete in training camp.  Short money only.  As for the draft, I would look to add a safety.  At corner, we are pretty well stocked with young players to develop.  But we do need a veteran to pull it all together.

 

11 hours ago, mrcoops said:

Good post, I have been saying similar things leading up to this draft.

Our team likes its young corners, and they are good fits for the Saleh scheme.

People hoping that we are going to pick man-cover CBs high are set to be disappointed. If we add to the position in this draft, it will be with mid to late round picks.

A guy like Ambry Thomas, as mentioned above, would be an ideal pick in the later rounds - a talented guy who would normally go higher, and who is a good scheme fit.

I have noticed your lonely quest to be honest with others on the board.  You are correct imo, especially about the scheme.  I too think it unwise to go corner early and think the coveted draft picks we need are already on the team.

 

11 hours ago, Beerfish said:

I am concerned and alarmed at the total devaluing of the secondary just because our secondary is weak ans Saleh does not put pressure on them.

You still need players, they still have to be good and be able to cover.  There are good zone busting teams.

We may not need pro bowlers at all of these spots but we need upgrades.

The incumbent CBs show promise but are really untested long term (at least hall is)

Maye is a decent player Davis was up and down.

I would add a veteran to the mix.  But I cannot justify another corner - much less a high draft pick - until I have evaluated the current personnel in the new system.  They are good fits and showed promise.  We do need to add a safety and I think the free agent crop has been picked clean.  I would not be surprised to see a mid-round pick.  Somebody who can tackle and play zone.

 

11 hours ago, choon328 said:

 

 

I've been saying similar things about the CB's for about 5 days now in the other threads.  The 49ers drafted 3 CB's in 4 years while Saleh was the DC and none higher than the 3rd. 

In his 4 years in SF as the DC, 4 of their 8 picks in rounds 1 and 2 were on defense.  3 defensive lineman,  1 MLB. It tells you what positions they value the most on that defense. 

Also, keep in mind, over that same time period in the 1st and 2nd rounds they drafted 4 offensive players. 3 WR's, 1 Tackle. 

Here are some mid rd CB's that the Jets should be looking at based on a zone scheme fit:

Israel Mukuamu, South Carolina, 3rd-5th

Marco Wilson, Florida 3rd-5th

Deommodore Lenoir, Oregon 4th-6th

Keith Taylor, Washington 4th-6th

Thomas Graham, Oregon 4th-6th

Sorry about the change in your print.  I did not know how to undo the white background.  It makes it hard to read in with the black background. 

Good post.  I have noticed your posts about corners in the other threads and wrote some of what I included in the opening post in support of your comments.  The 49er corners are big guys who tackle well and play press and bail.  Just like the ones that Saleh will inherit on the current team.  I will write more fully on the draft in upcoming posts as we get closer to the draft.  You have a good list of players who fit.  Perhaps some of them will go undrafted or we can take them late.  The Jets would be an enticing destination for them.  Personally, I want to use our late draft picks on Wills, Mikes, "Guard only" and "Center only" players.  I think we can find the starters we seek there.  Undrafted free agents are also a possibility.  Especially for Wills and Mikes.

 

11 hours ago, choon328 said:

The scheme makes CB's look better as long as they play within it. Just like the offensive scheme makes QB's look better. The 49ers and Seahawks all rolled with young mid to late rd CBs who fit well in the scheme and they have all performed well as a unit. We're so used to being so dependent on great CB play bc of a totally opposite schematical concept that it's frightening to look at the uncertainty at CB. But the scheme itself will help alleviate the unknown. It always has.

It does make corners look better.  After all, zone defenses are primarily pass defenses which are designed to deny the big play.  The rub - and there is always a counter-argument  - is your corners must be able to read run/pass and come in to make the tackle.

10 hours ago, Lith said:

Great analysis @clayton163v.  Thanks

I have been one of the guys saying we need an influx of talent at CB position, waiting for the FA signing that never came, and hoping to add a starter in day 1 otr 2.  You have talked me off the ledge.  Would still llike to see some talent added between now and the start of camp - especially given the injury history of our top 2 guys, but I am excited to see the young guys in the new scheme.

I too am excited to see what the youngsters can do with the new scheme.  I am sure they feel a bit persecuted and have an "us against the world" attitude in the defensive backfield meetings.  Not a bad thing at all when you think about it.  I am sure there is some unity amongst our very young secondary.

 

10 hours ago, kdels62 said:

Just get 1 guy that can start. 

I like Bless and Hall but Bless was bad last year. Hall was good but so was Bless as a rookie. Bring in a guy either with a high draft pick or FA to start and the secondary becomes much better.

I agree we should bring in a veteran.  As for a starting job, if he can wrest it from the youngsters, then so be it.  But he will have to take it by force.  I am only interested in short money offers.  I suspect Douglas sees it the same way since we have not signed anyone and there is clearly one more roster spot.  After the draft, absent something weird (Horn falling to 23 - not going to happen), I expect a veteran to some in on a one-year deal ala Vincent Curry.

 

7 hours ago, varjet said:

JD says he is going to get a QB and build the lines.

That would tell me that at 23 his draftboard should look like:

Kwitty Paye

Creed Humphrey

AVT

Teven Jenkins.  

at 34 there should a WR replacement for Crowder.

I too think we should take Douglas at his word.  While this thread is about the secondary and I do not want to hijack my own thread, I'll bite.

I think that Paye and Phillips would be the BAP at 23 if they are there and I think that one will.  You have to build inside out and that means lineman.  It is just too hard to find pass rushers later.  While I like AVT and Jenkins, they are only considered first round picks because of their versatility.  Both offer inside out versatility at tackle and guard.   But that really does not mean that they are better at guard than the "guard only" players with starting grades that can be found in the 4th-6th rounds.  I will write extensively about the guards who fit our wide zone blocking scheme in later posts.  As for Creed Humphrey, there is lot to like there.  But the addition of another center/guard in Feeney to go along with McGovern makes drafting one high unlikely.  If we desire a center, I would go for a "center only" prospect.  Like "guard only" prospects, they can be excellent professionals they carry lesser grades because they are one-dimensional.  Given that we took a versatile inside out player in Clark last season and have another in Edoga and have two center/guards on the roster - we can afford to bring in a couple of "guard only" and a "center only" type.  We have two 4th round picks and two 5th round picks.  Lets use them wisely and build inside out.  

Use the early picks on guys who can help us long term and can only be found early.  People like Paye and Phillips.  At 34, I am opportunistic.  If Moore, Bateman, Harris or Etienne is there, I am going to grab one of them if we do not go wideout/running back at 23 (which I would only do if the board fell very badly for us). 

 

7 hours ago, Ecuadorian Jet said:

I hope not, the defensive line does not need such high talent help. It should be:
2:QB
23:Creed Humphrey
34: Trey Smith

You can make the argument that Humphrey would help us long term.  But you can always take a center high.  Each and every year they are there.  Pass rushing edge ends are not always there.  You have to grab them when they are available.  If we were reloading, it would be different.  But we are rebuilding and trying to make it work.  Gotta take the long view.  Drafting "guard only" and "center only" players later is the way to go for us given the talent available in this year's draft.  But I do like Humphrey a lot more than AVT or Jenkins who I see as inside out tackles.   We need some muscle inside.  So what if they cannot play tackle. 

 

5 hours ago, varjet said:

I don't think Paye is there, but I think he grades far higher than 23, and the Jets could use a second DE.

If you look at prior drafts Centers as gifted as Humphrey also go higher than 23.  So I think we are looking at Jenkins or one of the Gs there.

Me too.  But when I look at the draft, both Phillips and Paye are falling well out of the top ten due to all the QBs.  All it would take is for a few surprises and they will both be there.  Some of the clubs picking ahead of us - Washington - need an offensive tackle so badly that AVT and/or Jenkins may be gone even though they lack left tackle potential imo.  Once that starts happening, if - say Harris - goes early, then the possibility becomes a likelihood.  Let's hope so.  Many on the board have speculated that Douglas will trade back for value at 23.  They may be right.  There is a talent drop off around pick 12 imo. 

 

 

[Ecuadorian Jet]

@clayton163v if we are drafting a QB at 2, which we are, we better do the right thing, which we didn't do with Dar old, and establish the o-line with as much top talent as possible. Back to back o-line with 23 and 34 is the way to go.

We already signed Lawson, and can get a second pass rusher in the later rounds, such as Hamilcar Rashed.

[jetstream23]

17 hours ago, varjet said:

I agree with the general sentiment that we should mostlyroll with the DBs we have for this season.  Maybe look for value In the lower rounds/UDFA.

There seems to be a lot of CB value in the Round 4-6 area.  I'm far from an expert but just looking at rankings and such, there are a few high end guys, maybe 3-4 worthy of a 1st round pick, another handful in Rounds 2-3, but then like 12 guys who could be solid picks early on Day 3.  And, the fact that we're not looking for a lockdown, man coverage guy like a Revis probably means there are quite a few guys who can fit here.

[jetstream23]

1 hour ago, Ecuadorian Jet said:

@clayton163v if we are drafting a QB at 2, which we are, we better do the right thing, which we didn't do with Dar old, and establish the o-line with as much top talent as possible. Back to back o-line with 23 and 34 is the way to go.

We already signed Lawson, and can get a second pass rusher in the later rounds, such as Hamilcar Rashed.

Further, the Jets not only signed Lawson, they also signed Rankins and Vinny Curry to a team that has some DLine talent already with Quinnen, Foley, Kyle Phillips, etc. and who drafted a DE in the 3rd round last year.

On offense.... well, we signed that Feeney guy from the Chargers.

[Philc1]

22 hours ago, varjet said:

I agree with the general sentiment that we should mostlyroll with the DBs we have for this season.  Maybe look for value In the lower rounds/UDFA.

If we do that I doubt we win more than 4 games next season 

[slats]

18 hours ago, varjet said:

JD says he is going to get a QB and build the lines.

That would tell me that at 23 his draftboard should look like:

Kwitty Paye

Creed Humphrey

AVT

Teven Jenkins.  

at 34 there should a WR replacement for Crowder.

You had me until that last line. Crowder's replacement could come after the third round, because he doesn't need to play this year. Crowder will be the slot in the last year of his contract. He's a reliable player, and JD isn't going to replace him with a rookie in his rookie QB's first season. Also think that Douglas would like to start getting into the comp pick game sooner rather than later, and letting Crowder's contract run out can help in that regard. 

[Dunnie]

Me too.  But when I look at the draft, both Phillips and Paye are falling well out of the top ten due to all the QBs.  All it would take is for a few surprises and they will both be there.  Some of the clubs picking ahead of us - Washington - need an offensive tackle so badly that AVT and/or Jenkins may be gone even though they lack left tackle potential imo.  Once that starts happening, if - say Harris - goes early, then the possibility becomes a likelihood.  Let's hope so.  Many on the board have speculated that Douglas will trade back for value at 23.  They may be right.  There is a talent drop off around pick 12 imo. 
 
 

Great thing is our position in round 2

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