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Jets made worst trade of draft?


Rhg1084
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I thought the loss of the 3rd round picks was tough because we were losing out on guys like Jabril Cox and Kendrick Green, but in retrospect the Jets did not even want their pick at the end of the 4th round.  They wants lots of picks in 5-6.  

I think history will show the 3rd round this year to not be great, and AVT to be another guard in the DeCastro/Thuney mold. For five years under contract.  

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39 minutes ago, STLuLu said:

I hear you. I'm very skeptic and critical of the Jets but it's tough love coming from people like you and I. I'm talking about the unusual hate from outsiders like people on national televised sports talk shows who are suppose to be neutral. But that would make it that much sweeter if they did finally win another Super Bowl.

Pundits are a trailing indicator. The Patriot ball washing only started when they started winning rings. If your reputation/job depends on your being right more often then being wrong calling the Jets to stink is playing with house money. Likewise, the talking heads will switch licky split if Jets start winning.

Jets control the narrative by their play on the field.

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i really like the player AVT , but we didnt have to have the BEST guard in the draft.

you guys would have LOVED any OL at 23. plus the WR we adding at 34 you guys would have been just as excited.

the thing is yes the 2 3rd rd picks we gave up. there were alot of good players there.

3 TEs went. i dont know much but i hear Tremble was a really good blocking TE. could have been really nice in our run game.

WR Amari Rodgers went there too. you guys would have wet your pants if we got a 2nd WR. plus i think he will be a steal. 

and LB Jabril Cox went in the 4th a few picks behind Carter. now do it however you want. take carter with the 2nd 3rd rd pick and Cox with our 4th or take Cox with the 3rd rd pick. 

we missed out on 2 players who would have contributed alot to this team.

im sure you guys have a list of who you would have taken in the 3rd rd. it doesnt have to be my picks. whatever floats your boat.

if you really wanted a Guard i would have been fine if we drafted Wyatt in the 3rd. 

and who says we dont need a Tackle? is are RT some ALL pro or something? 

im not going to be like some guys on this board and harp on this for years.....and tell you how good these players are that we could have had if we didnt do this trade. but since this thread is about the trade im saying my peace.

i really like AVT. i cant wait to see him and Becton give us an ALL-PRO left side of our line. i just think that i would have liked whatever OL we drafted at 23, and the 3rd rd picks would have been starters in year 2 the latest which would have made are team better than with the trade.

 

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7 hours ago, jgb said:

If the Jets don’t like be “hated” they should do something about being so worthy of hate. I also judge every move with skepticism until I see some sort of results. That’s where I am with this team and I’m a lifelong fan.

The Jets are not hated.  They are laughed and made fun of by the media and by fans of other teams.  Jets are alwys good for a few laughs.  But it is a narrative we have earned over the past decade. 

To change the narrative, the team has to win.  Lets win some games and give other teams and fanbases reason to hate us.  And it does seem like we are getting a bit more respect from the media sicne the Saleh hire.

 

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 Even the most responsible critics of the trade up aren't taking the following into account---(1) the zone-blocking superb scheme fit and (2) with Becton, Vera Tucker gives the Jets the first thing that opposing DCs have to scheme against sent Brandon M. in 2015.

Regarding (2), With Pitts not realistically available, the threat now presented by our left-side running game is the absolutely best and SUREST thing that we could do to help ZW.  Worth paying a price to nail that down.

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12 minutes ago, Alworth said:

 Even the most responsible critics of the trade up aren't taking the following into account---(1) the zone-blocking superb scheme fit and (2) with Becton, Vera Tucker gives the Jets the first thing that opposing DCs have to scheme against sent Brandon M. in 2015.

Regarding (2), With Pitts not realistically available, the threat now presented by our left-side running game is the absolutely best and SUREST thing that we could do to help ZW.  Worth paying a price to nail that down.

What some fans and TV critics don't get is JD and Saleh are putting together their vision of how to build the team..Just because they don't do what some others wanted doesn't make them wrong..

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16 hours ago, Jamax99 said:

Raiders scewed up , they took a 2nd round player instead of Darrisaw ,  if that happened , Vikes miss out of Tucker and Darrisaw for sure.   But i still think Tucker will be a pro bowl guard.   He can also play LT if Becton goes down. 

He can play RT too...AVT gives a lot of flexibility along our OL

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8 hours ago, Scott Dierking said:

I can never understand why GM’s of the teams that I follow never value players exactly the same way that I do. I also cannot comprehend that their vision for the team does not exactly align with mine.

This has happened EVERY year that I have followed this incredibly stupid franchise of the Jets. When will they get someone that gets it right, based on my particular vision?

Thanks Evan roberts

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5 hours ago, Beerfish said:

The problem is they did not trade to get marshall.  He just happened to be there for that pick.  The trade made no sense at all value wise, seemed like a big favor to the Chiefs.  No big deal in the big scheme of things it was just weird.

Or possibly trading down from #226 to #207 ensured JD that he would get one of his players in the last groupings. 226 might have been a perceived risk of missing out. 

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10 minutes ago, Cyberjet said:

Or possibly trading down from #226 to #207 ensured JD that he would get one of his players in the last groupings. 226 might have been a perceived risk of missing out. 

Simply not enough of a pay off moving down 16 spots in one round to move up 19 in the next and have the same net # of picks.

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3 hours ago, jgb said:

Pundits are a trailing indicator. The Patriot ball washing only started when they started winning rings. If your reputation/job depends on your being right more often then being wrong calling the Jets to stink is playing with house money. Likewise, the talking heads will switch licky split if Jets start winning.

Jets control the narrative by their play on the field.

Yes, but even when the Jets were legitimate, in consecutive AFC title games, it was still LOLJets. 

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9 hours ago, Lith said:

The Jets are not hated.  They are laughed and made fun of by the media and by fans of other teams.  Jets are alwys good for a few laughs.  But it is a narrative we have earned over the past decade. 

To change the narrative, the team has to win.  Lets win some games and give other teams and fanbases reason to hate us.  And it does seem like we are getting a bit more respect from the media sicne the Saleh hire.

 

Yep—in today’s world when the victim card is so strong people create villains. There is no conspiracy or cabal of haters — the Jets just usually stink.

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6 hours ago, SackExchangeNYJ said:

Yes, but even when the Jets were legitimate, in consecutive AFC title games, it was still LOLJets. 

Sad you missed that run, it was so fun. That team and Rex got so much good pub, Hard Knocks etc Rex was the hottest coach in the league. Goes to show the difference between “brash” and “buffoon” is W/L record.

Mangini also had a legendary honeymoon period. The coverage about Saleh has been basically 100% positive also. Hell the media is more optimistic than fans like me who now require evidence to be optimistic.

(A) there is no anti-Jets conspiracy only an anti-loser bias and (B) even if there was, it’s not an excuse to keep sucking.

The best thing to do with “da haterzz” is to prove them wrong and shove it down their throats. The Jets haven’t been able to do that. Bad teams deserve bad coverage. The same talking heads mocking the Jets will be gushing if Jets start winning. It’s their business model.

 

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  • 3 months later...
29 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

Interesting take from Leger this morning..

 

 

Some of us have said repeatedly that the Jets should have taken another olienman in this draft.  That is my one big critique of douglas drafts so far, not doubling down on positions of need in drafts that are strong in those areas,

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6 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Feeney is garbage. As much as I love the guy, he will get Zach killed if he ever sees playing time. 

Agreed, but I don’t think JDs plan was for him to start, in fact he was probably plan C.   The injuries to AVT and Clarke are forcing Feeney’s playing time 

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On 5/2/2021 at 6:44 AM, More Cowbell said:

I don't  get all the talk about Darrisaw not being able to play G. The transition from going to inside from outside is easier than the other way around and Darrisaw  could have played RG which we also need. 

I believe there were concerns about medical issues with Darrisaw. AVT was the safer choice. 

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image.thumb.png.d7ec4781f97ecb5c89f36c8dc2242a6a.png

I've said it once and I'll say it again; the trade up for the #1 ranked and #1 rated interior O-lineman in Alijah Vera-Tucker wasn't a must. 

Because now...

E2MwvyPXEAARo18.jpg

Will become our next Brick-of-Gold for the next 10+ years. 

And I think they'll become an even more DOMINANT duo too (once reaching @Maxman max potential) 

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On 5/1/2021 at 10:11 PM, Rhg1084 said:

Well, that's a hot take I guess.

I think reasonable folks would wait, and evaluate the trade in light of the results. 

If AVT is a perennial all-pro, and he helps support and protect the development of Wilson, as we hope, the cost was more than reasonable, even for "just a guard".   And I say that as a guys who, in the moment, wanted Darrisaw.  

Hard to call it a bad trade before AVT has even taken a regular season snap IMO.  But as I've said alot lately, everyone is in a rush to be right on the internet first I guess.

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1 hour ago, Rhg1084 said:

this trade not looking so bad now?

One thing about grading draft day trades.  One cannot get lost in how well the player worked out after the trade.  The thing to keep in mind is the exchange of value - the trade chart - and the other is the "what might have been" SO LONG AS IT IS REASONABLE.  When the available draft guidance gives a player a third round grade and that player is taken in the third round, it is fair to note that in trading a third round pick we gave up a specific player(s).  When they play similar positions, you  can even compare apples to apples.  

First, on Darrisaw.  I was aghast at reports that the Jets were considering him.  He wasn't right and had not been able to work out for teams before the draft.  It was a clear red flag that crossed him off my board.  There were teams that saw it my way too.  I suppose it reveals just how hard it is to find a viable candidate for the LT spot.  And the lengths teams are willing to go . . . he was damaged goods. 

On Wyatt Davis.  He needs to be on a man-to-man blocking scheme where his lack of lateral agility will not hinder his play.  He would be a disaster in a wide zone scheme. 

Now for the trade.  At the time, I noted that while the trade chart clearly favored the Vikings.  Nevertheless, the cost to move up: two third round draft choices and our late 1st  for the AVT pick and a late fourth (63 spots behind the later 3d we gave up) WAS REASONABLE.  Just look at what the Bears had to give the Giants to move up right in front of us.  The Giants cleaned them out.  Had we coughed up that much scratch I would have gone bonkers (a 5th in 2021, a 4th in 2022 and next year's #1).  So some prospective is in order.  It is easy to see that Douglas did very well on the terms of the trade.

As for the wisdom of the trade, the jury is most definitely still out on that one.  Not only is AVT laid up with an injury that routinely ends whole seasons (a torn pec means season ending IR folks) but the "what might have been" is not encouraging either.  Now AVT might be just fine.  it might just be a strain.  But with the injuries to Clark and Edoga and the retirement of Alex Lewis, it is now officially a big deal.  AVT must take the field.  Besides, there is something about the AVT/GVR guard tandem that I find appealing. 

While the opening post noted the injured Darrisaw and the slow to develop Wyatt Davis, neither made sense for our wide zone scheme.  According to the scouting reports, the top two wide zone scheme guards in the draft were Kendrick Green (3d - Steelers) and Quinn Menerz (3d - Broncos).  Both are tearing up the pea patch and are expected to start.  We could have had BOTH of them for the two third round picks we gave up in the trade and this is not hindsight.   It was my desired scenario during the draft and I was not the only one on the board at the time.  AVT was - and remains - the second best Guard in this draft (Slater had the edge and did go earlier).  AVT is thought to be scheme versatile and able to move well enough to perform well in a zone scheme while giving you solid run blocking skill with that "get low" power that you only find in the early rounds of the draft.

Will AVT work out?  I dunno.  I sure hope so because he was so expensive.  But the terms of the trade were fair and a whole hell of a lot better than what another team had to pay right before we made our move.  But Green and Menerz are the true comparisons and both look great at the present time.  Their availability with our draft picks is not only factual given where they were drafted, but is reasonable based on their pre-draft grades. 

 

1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

Some of us have said repeatedly that the Jets should have taken another olienman in this draft.  That is my one big critique of douglas drafts so far, not doubling down on positions of need in drafts that are strong in those areas,

I certainly thought so.  Had I been in charge I am not sure what I would have done with our later 1st round pick.  It depends on what was on offer since I was wide open to a trade down.  But I would have taken BOTH Green and Menerz had I gotten the chance.  I would have even danced a little jig.

1 hour ago, sec101row23 said:

Agreed, but I don’t think JDs plan was for him to start, in fact he was probably plan C.   The injuries to AVT and Clarke are forcing Feeney’s playing time 

Yes.  But that was the Giant's #2 defensive line out there.  Leo would have eaten Feeney.  Who is up if AVT cannot go and Feeney goes down?  McDermott.  That's who.  By  the way, McDermott played pretty well last season (when he was not at LT).  The only offensive line reserve about whom that was true. 

1 hour ago, DoubleDecker said:

Meanwhile a guy I and many were  lamenting about not picking, might not even play this season! I'm good with AVT

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/32044027/bears-ot-teven-jenkins-back-surgery-team-hopes-return-season

I did not want Teven Jenkins.  Too many red flags about his technique.  The scouting report said he created highlight film blocks by lunging but in the NFL you cannot get away with it.  Ourlads warned teams he needed to be "reworked from head to toe".   Like Darrisaw, it goes to show just how desperate teams are for LTs. 

55 minutes ago, All Gas, No Gase said:

I believe there were concerns about medical issues with Darrisaw. AVT was the safer choice. 

There were with Darrisaw.  He could not work out and it was a red flag.  Zimmer sounds like a moron in that quote. 

39 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Well, that's a hot take I guess.

I think reasonable folks would wait, and evaluate the trade in light of the results. 

If AVT is a perennial all-pro, and he helps support and protect the development of Wilson, as we hope, the cost was more than reasonable, even for "just a guard".   And I say that as a guys who, in the moment, wanted Darrisaw.  

Hard to call it a bad trade before AVT has even taken a regular season snap IMO.  But as I've said alot lately, everyone is in a rush to be right on the internet first I guess.

It is all about AVT.  If he is a long-term starter, nobody will care about the terms of the trade.  If Menerz and Green are better players, I will nag the entire board forever (nah, I really do try to keep things positive and informative).  : )

25 minutes ago, JazzyJet said:

Well I mean, if his pec ever heals we can gloat a bit more.

Ah, a veteran Jet fan.  Always aware that the light at the end of the tunnel could be an oncoming train and only a fool follows the Jets into the tunnel without some evidence.  I salute you.  And you are correct in all respects.   

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15 minutes ago, clayton163v said:

One thing about grading draft day trades.  One cannot get lost in how well the player worked out after the trade.  The thing to keep in mind is the exchange of value - the trade chart - and the other is the "what might have been" SO LONG AS IT IS REASONABLE.

I respectfully disagree with this methodology of evaluation.

In my opinion, the only metric that matters in a draft is outcome.  Did we get the player we wanted and did that player then play well/produce for us.

Making a great "trade chart" trade to draft a bad player who doesn't produce, no matter how good the trade looked on paper, is still a bad trade.  Players and picks have no value outside how they produce.  Perceived chart or prospect value is pure theory, production is actual value.

Conversely, making a poor trade on the trade chart (i.e. reaching) or a trade that in the views of draftnicks is poor but that gets the guy we wanted who then produces very well, is still a good trade in my view.

I think too many people forget the point of the draft, and that is to get good productive franchise-building players. 

It isn't to "win" on draft day, or get the best draft chart value or other similar "win the draft" metrics.  We want to win football games, not draft days.

Nor is a what-if generally valid, as anything after a change is made (i.e. we don't trade) is fantasy projection, no one knows how a draft plays out if a move that was made isn't made.  This is especially true the further you get away from the pick in question.  

I don't begrudge folks who look at the draft differently, I just don't see the draft itself as the win, I see the player and his production as the win.

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The trade value chart was merely an effort to provide a uniform baseline of value for a draft slot without consideration of team need or the player available.  The chart is great when swapping picks before the draft, but the chart goes out the window when picks are traded for the purpose of landing a particular player. I don't think this guy is very bright. 

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1 hour ago, clayton163v said:

One thing about grading draft day trades.  One cannot get lost in how well the player worked out after the trade.  The thing to keep in mind is the exchange of value - the trade chart - and the other is the "what might have been" SO LONG AS IT IS REASONABLE.  When the available draft guidance gives a player a third round grade and that player is taken in the third round, it is fair to note that in trading a third round pick we gave up a specific player(s).  When they play similar positions, you  can even compare apples to apples.  

First, on Darrisaw.  I was aghast at reports that the Jets were considering him.  He wasn't right and had not been able to work out for teams before the draft.  It was a clear red flag that crossed him off my board.  There were teams that saw it my way too.  I suppose it reveals just how hard it is to find a viable candidate for the LT spot.  And the lengths teams are willing to go . . . he was damaged goods. 

On Wyatt Davis.  He needs to be on a man-to-man blocking scheme where his lack of lateral agility will not hinder his play.  He would be a disaster in a wide zone scheme. 

Now for the trade.  At the time, I noted that while the trade chart clearly favored the Vikings.  Nevertheless, the cost to move up: two third round draft choices and our late 1st  for the AVT pick and a late fourth (63 spots behind the later 3d we gave up) WAS REASONABLE.  Just look at what the Bears had to give the Giants to move up right in front of us.  The Giants cleaned them out.  Had we coughed up that much scratch I would have gone bonkers (a 5th in 2021, a 4th in 2022 and next year's #1).  So some prospective is in order.  It is easy to see that Douglas did very well on the terms of the trade.

As for the wisdom of the trade, the jury is most definitely still out on that one.  Not only is AVT laid up with an injury that routinely ends whole seasons (a torn pec means season ending IR folks) but the "what might have been" is not encouraging either.  Now AVT might be just fine.  it might just be a strain.  But with the injuries to Clark and Edoga and the retirement of Alex Lewis, it is now officially a big deal.  AVT must take the field.  Besides, there is something about the AVT/GVR guard tandem that I find appealing. 

While the opening post noted the injured Darrisaw and the slow to develop Wyatt Davis, neither made sense for our wide zone scheme.  According to the scouting reports, the top two wide zone scheme guards in the draft were Kendrick Green (3d - Steelers) and Quinn Menerz (3d - Broncos).  Both are tearing up the pea patch and are expected to start.  We could have had BOTH of them for the two third round picks we gave up in the trade and this is not hindsight.   It was my desired scenario during the draft and I was not the only one on the board at the time.  AVT was - and remains - the second best Guard in this draft (Slater had the edge and did go earlier).  AVT is thought to be scheme versatile and able to move well enough to perform well in a zone scheme while giving you solid run blocking skill with that "get low" power that you only find in the early rounds of the draft.

Will AVT work out?  I dunno.  I sure hope so because he was so expensive.  But the terms of the trade were fair and a whole hell of a lot better than what another team had to pay right before we made our move.  But Green and Menerz are the true comparisons and both look great at the present time.  Their availability with our draft picks is not only factual given where they were drafted, but is reasonable based on their pre-draft grades. 

 

I certainly thought so.  Had I been in charge I am not sure what I would have done with our later 1st round pick.  It depends on what was on offer since I was wide open to a trade down.  But I would have taken BOTH Green and Menerz had I gotten the chance.  I would have even danced a little jig.

Yes.  But that was the Giant's #2 defensive line out there.  Leo would have eaten Feeney.  Who is up if AVT cannot go and Feeney goes down?  McDermott.  That's who.  By  the way, McDermott played pretty well last season (when he was not at LT).  The only offensive line reserve about whom that was true. 

I did not want Teven Jenkins.  Too many red flags about his technique.  The scouting report said he created highlight film blocks by lunging but in the NFL you cannot get away with it.  Ourlads warned teams he needed to be "reworked from head to toe".   Like Darrisaw, it goes to show just how desperate teams are for LTs. 

There were with Darrisaw.  He could not work out and it was a red flag.  Zimmer sounds like a moron in that quote. 

It is all about AVT.  If he is a long-term starter, nobody will care about the terms of the trade.  If Menerz and Green are better players, I will nag the entire board forever (nah, I really do try to keep things positive and informative).  : )

Ah, a veteran Jet fan.  Always aware that the light at the end of the tunnel could be an oncoming train and only a fool follows the Jets into the tunnel without some evidence.  I salute you.  And you are correct in all respects.   

DWC. Is that you? 

 

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On 5/1/2021 at 10:14 PM, New York Mick said:

It wasn’t a good trade but they got the players they wanted 

Do you realize that the Jets haven't had a decent left guard since Faneca played left guard for them. The players thrown out by other teams that we picked up didn't work out.  The drafted players in the 3rd round and down didn't work, and the players we traded for by giving up a 7th or 6th round draft pick didn't work.

The Jets needed a "sure thing" and they felt that getting up to get Vera Tucker was the "sure thing" that they needed.

To other teams who didn't miss time and time again it may not have been a good trade.  For the Jets, it was a great trade.  To finally nail down their left guard to play next to Becton, and solidify the running game to the left side hopefully for the next decade, the trade made all the sense in the world.

I could care less what others think, and I can promise you 1000% that Joe Douglas could care less what other people feel about the trade as well.

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