Keelan Cole will be the biggest surprise on this Jet offense

[MichaelScott]

8 hours ago, Paradis said:

l

My job professionally is pick out the entitled/enabled a$$holes and deal with them. I don't even need to raise my gaze from the monitor to know you'd be on my radar. Your defensiveness really gives you away. 

I'm legitimately intrigued by this. You could literally be the peanut guy for the field level seats behind home plate at Yankee stadium, a local kindergarten teacher or Chief of Staff at the Whitehouse ??

[Shockwave]

I feel like Cole was a great signing especially when you consider his analytics. 

Im still wondering when we cut crowder/other guys. You know you might even be able to resign crowder to a cheaper deal. Look at teams cap numbers. Crowder is not getting 10m a year in this market. 

Its either that or he gets traded for another guy on a 1 year deal. 

[Joe W. Namath]

Even Keelan Cole wouldnt believe there is a 5 page thread on Keelan Cole.

Whos our 5th corner?  Lets start a thread about him leading the league in picks.

[MichaelScott]

7 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Correct.  We do not need the money this year so I am not sure what saving $10 mil this year does for us.  If I remember correctly, this is the last year of crowder's contract and hes off the books for next year.

So if we do not need the 10mil this year, there is really no reason to cut a good player who can be a safety valve for a rookie qb.

?!!

If we were in financial hell and needed to get under the cap, no brainer cut. 

If that extra 10 mil  was the difference I'm them sighing a top tier player in FA, also makes plenty sense. 

Getting rid of veteran talent and locker room leadership on a young team to save money we aren't even spending is stupid, imo. He's been our only remotely productive player for 3 years.

Not for nothing, but I want Mims and Moore to have Crowder with them on the practice field this summer. You can't underestimate the impact of veteran leadership with such a young team, imo. Likewise, that was huge reason why I wanted them to keep Maye. He's more to that D than just what we see on on field. 

There was a reason this team didn't rip each other apart and played their asses off every minute of last season and I'm willing to bet it had little to nothing to do with Adam Gase

[Joe W. Namath]

12 minutes ago, MichaelScott said:

?!!

If we were in financial hell and needed to get under the cap, no brainer cut. 

If that extra 10 mil  was the difference I'm them sighing a top tier player in FA, also makes plenty sense. 

Getting rid of veteran talent and locker room leadership on a young team to save money we aren't even spending is stupid, imo. He's been our only remotely productive player for 3 years.

Not for nothing, but I want Mims and Moore to have Crowder with them on the practice field this summer. You can't underestimate the impact of veteran leadership with such a young team, imo. Likewise, that was huge reason why I wanted them to keep Maye. He's more to that D than just what we see on on field. 

There was a reason this team didn't rip each other apart and played their asses off every minute of last season and I'm willing to bet it had little to nothing to do with Adam Gase

Solid post.  Could not agree more.

[choon328]

2 hours ago, clayton163v said:

This is a good description of Cole.  He is solid depth who brings versatility to the receiving group.  He can credibly line up a the Z, X or Slot because he has height, weight, speed and hands.  I do not believe the Jets signed him to be the starting player at any of those spots.  This is particularly true when you look at the 49er offense which ran a lot of two-tight end and fullback sets where there are only two wideouts on the field.  But last season, the depth at wide receiver COLLAPSED.  I believe that Douglas came into the off-season with a list of things to accomplish.  I believe that #1 on his list was to improve the quality, depth and versatility of our wide receivers.  I think he did just that and Cole is part of it.  But I also think Coles was an opportunistic signing.   Cole bit on a one-year deal for short money.  Douglas reasoned that was a lot better than what we had and he would have killed for it mid-season last year.

As I wrote above, we had to act.  Douglas threw stuff at the wall and there is no doubt that we are better and deeper than we were.  But starting jobs are up for grabs.  Nobody is penciled in for the whole year.  People are going to have to produce or in comes Cole, etc.

Cole might show up anywhere.  Versatility is his calling card.  I do not want to throw rocks at Crowder, since I believe him to be in the upper half of the NFL as a slot receiver.  But Crowder is only going to play the slot going forward.  Given the depth of the receivers, I expect him to take a pay cut or be moved elsewhere. 

Some heady company there.  While I would dance the Watusi if Moore proves to be that guy, I would be happy with Deebo Samuel or Carolina's Shunault or the Giants new toy Toney.  A gadget guy who can do many things.  I agree the upside is a starting Z who has such agility that he can punish press corners when they miss and force teams to double him.  But I am prepared for the possibility that he is less than that.  We will still get plenty of use out of him.  Unlike Crowder, he is an excellent gadget player.  The end around and moving him into the backfield or putting him in motion all present opportunities to get him the ball in space.  His 4.3 speed makes him deadly.  His stop and go, simply freezes defenders.  Even when he has the ball.  Moore is a nice player, but Smith and Brown were the best players in the league at times.  A bit much to ask and I believe that the Jets are not counting on that outcome, nor are they discounting it either.  They intend to find out if he can play outside better than our other players. 

This is the key truth from the posts in this topic imo.  The 49er offense prioritizes the running game with the wide zone scheme.  This places a priority on the ability of the outside receivers to block at the point of attack.  It is also the forte of Corey Davis who is a savage blocker.  Barring injury or ineffectiveness, I think PepPep is right that Davis will lead the team in receptions.  I also expect him to lead the team in snaps.  I also think he is our #1 until somebody proves otherwise.  I do believe others will get a chance.  

Mims will be given every opportunity to be the other starting wideout.  Like Davis, Mims can play the Z or X in any formation and is a plus blocker.  But he is going to have to produce if he wants to hold off the charge from Cole and Moore.  Both are good players and I agree with the opening post that Cole is not somebody to forget.  

As for Herndon, I think many Jet fans overrate receptions for tight ends and underrate the contribution to the running game as an inline blocker.  Last season, the other tight ends had a golden opportunity to put Herndon on the bench as the injuries and dropped passes sapped his future with the club.  But they could not do it.  It was not because they were terrible receivers, but because Herndon is a far better blocker than most tight ends in the NFL.  He can seal the edge with finality, does not get blown up in mass protect and gets to the second level when we go strong side with wide zone runs.   His combination of strength and agility inline is hard to find.  That is why he emerged as the starter as a rookie, not because he also proved he can smoke linebackers in coverage.  If he can just reliably squeeze the easy passes, he will have a long career as an inline tight end.  I like Yeboah as a free agent, but he has a mountain to climb before he can block with the likes of Chris Herndon.  It is why he is our starter.  I agree with PepPep that he needs to stay healthy.  He also cannot let us down with drops on easy catches.  But fellas, be realistic about replacing him.  He gets the job done up front.  He even does it well. 

This is all true about Crowder.  Cole can offer decent play in the slot and so can Moore.  Crowder was a regular as the slot guy in last year's offense.  This year, there will be two-tight end sets and plenty of fullback sets.  $10 million is a lot to pay for a slot guy when you do not use the slot all the time.  It is also a lot to pay for insurance.  I expect Douglas to be patient and see how things shake out in training camp.  But if the judgment of the coaches put Cole or Moore ahead of Crowder, then he will have to take a pay cut or he will be traded or cut.  I take for granted that the starting wide receivers will be Davis and Mims.  They just fit better than Cole or Moore because they can play the Z or X and are plus blockers. 

This is indeed the hope.  But I doubt the Jets will hang their hat there.  They will give Moore the chance to shine outside and beat out Mims or Davis to be our #1.  But that is not the plan imo.  I think the plan is to use him like Deebo Samuel.  A gadget player who gets the ball in space out of the backfield, in motion or in the slot.  Either way, I expect this unusual dimension is something Moore brings to the table that Davis, Mims and Cole do not.  Nor does Crowder.  Moore is truly electric.  

As I wrote above, I see the Coles' signing as Douglas being opportunistic.  Cole is a solid NFL veteran who can help anybody.  So was Cotchery.  If Cole can deliver that kind of performance, they he is most welcome.  But Davis, Mims, Moore and Crowder present stiff competition for snaps.  But given the state of the Jets last year at wideout, I believe the coaches will not ignore production in training camp.  I think Cole was promised an honest chance to play.  I think that was an honest promise. 

I am doubtful that Crowder can remain on the roster at $10 million.  It is not that I am cheap with Woody's money, it is the sheer depth of the other guys and the fact that all but Moore have proved they can produce outside.  Crowder has a more limited venue to prove his worth.  But I think the Jets will not act until training camp is well underway and we can see what we have. 

As for Cole moving into a starting role.  If somebody stumbles or get hurt, ole reliable Cole becomes the starter because he can backup at all spots.  We were 2-14.  Anybody can be shoved to the bench if others start to shine.  But based on his rugged nature, I have to assume that Mims is a better fit than any of our guys except Davis.  If Mims has reason to fear another player, it is Moore.  If Moore becomes the starting Z, they Davis will be the X.  Mims - a former spread offense receiver - can play in the slot or out of the backfield.  Like Cole, he too is versatile. 

Douglas values versatility.  We have seen it at guard with Feeney and McGovern (center/guards), at tackle (Clark), at safety (Nasirildeen and Sherwood) and defensive line (Rankins).  It is what he likes about Cole.  Me too.  It is why I think Crowder is facing an uphill battle.  But Douglas is patient too.  I doubt he will act until training camp is well underway.        

Nice clean statement.  That is the ideal.  If he stumbles . . . or Moore is the bomb . . .

I like Crowder.  But NFL teams do not pay $10 per year for insurance.  He must earn a role in the offense or he will be asked to take a pay cut or he will be traded or cut.  I realize you dislike this result and are haunted by what happened last season.  But I doubt Douglas intends to keep him no matter what happens in training camp.  There will be competition and some guys are going to lose out.  And remember, Crowder got his golden opportunity to prove he could play outside last season and he failed.  That is working against him imo.  It - along with pure opportunity - is why we signed Cole.

I like Cole, but I think he is the backup plan and somebody who will get his chance.  But Mims and Davis are better blockers and we will be a run first offense.  Especially early in the season as we try to avoid 3d and long.  If any of our wide receivers will return punts, it will be Moore who is an electrifying returner.  It is his forte. 

I get it, totally do and I'll be nervous as well to cut Crowder because by all accounts he is everything you want in locker-room and on the field.

Me too.  But if he is truly a reserve, then he has to take a pay cut. 

But truthfully we can withstand an injury to one of our WR's because there is more depth there now with Cole.  Even if Mims or Davis go down - Cole can step in seamlessly.  I also expect the other guys like Vyncent Smith to come back better now that they are healthy.

This.  Along with pure opportunity led Douglas to sign Cole.

There's only a handful of times we will have 4 wide receivers on the field, if all healthy those four should be Cole, Moore, Mims, Davis because those are now our best 4.  Any other play you have Crowder in you are taking Moore off the field which is hurting the development of Moore plus hurting your offense because Moore (imo) offers much more right now with his insanely low drop rate and ability to YAC -  he's a 4.32 guy with incredible sticky hands and mature route running.  His comps have been Antonio Brown, Tyler Lockett and Steve Smith. 

We will seldom have four Wideouts on the field.  Laflur likes to disguise his looks.  It prevents the defense from locking in to what we intend to run.  If we are going to go four wideouts, then he will bring Carter into the game and put him in motion. 

Also our Shanahan offense spreads the ball around a lot; a lot of passes to RB's and TE's so Crowder is going to give you what, maybe 4-6 catches a game if he were playing full time.  Is that worth $10 million dollars this year.  No chance IMO.  Yes we currently have the cap space but by spending that money now on a redundant and less talented player iyou are taking that money away from next year's cap where it can roll over and get us a stud.  $10 mill is a huge salary. 

Yes.  Plus, when Crowder is in the huddle, you know he is going into the slot.  With Cole, he might line up anywhere.  Remember, Mims can play in the slot. 

David Decastro gets $10 mill a year.  Joe Haden gets $10 mill a year.  We can get a starting player that is very good and fills a need next year for what we are paying Crowder who definitely won't be resigned after this season anyway.

While it looks good when you write it that way, the truth is good players seldom get loose.  Decastro has never been on the market.   Joe Haden got released and was on the discarded pile - as opposed to a coveted free agent attracting league wide bidding.  Unfortunately, extra cap space allows good teams to retain their own players.  It seldom allows a team to acquire scarce starting talent unless you pay a premium.  I give Douglas credit for not back loading contracts and trying to clean up the mess from our previous GM.  But unlike many on the board I miss Leonard Williams and wish we had resigned him  He can help anybody and that includes us.  Players have been fleeing the Jets.  But you cannot buy a team in the NFL. 

Keep Crowder through TC in case of injury to a Jets WR or another team's WR where you can trade him.  But other than a significant pre-season injury to our current wideouts Crowder just doesn't add up. 

Yes.  Exactly.

100% true.  We will be a run first offense and that will depress the reception numbers for the wide receivers.  Your point about the 49er offense is spot on.   LaFlur likes to disguise his looks.  You cannot do that with three wide receivers in the game.  You can with a two-tight end look or if you use a fullback who can catch the ball.  It diminishes the utility of a slot only receiver like Crowder and underscores that the Jets see Moore as a gadget player or the starting Z.  I too see Moore as akin to Deebo Samuel's role in the 49er offense. Some body whose versatility disguises what you are trying to do.

As for trading for a veteran tight end.  I think it depends on what we must offer.  For a late round pick?  Sure.  Straight up for Crowder or along with a late round pick?  Sure.  For a second round pick?  I would be absolutely stunned.  And dismayed.  It is not like we are contenders.  Our team is filled with young players and question marks that need answers. 

 

I think a 4th and a late pick would get it done for someone like Engram who is on the last year of his deal. I think TE is the one position on the team where there is no short or long term prospects for the position so I'd be willing to invest a little more to get that handled. Whatever it takes to give Wilson the best chance to develop should be on the table. That should be the main priority of the organization and I think the draft proved that it is. A trade for a veteran pass receiving TE would not surprise me. 

[JetBlue]

26 minutes ago, choon328 said:

I think a 4th and a late pick would get it done for someone like Engram who is on the last year of his deal. I think TE is the one position on the team where there is no short or long term prospects for the position so I'd be willing to invest a little more to get that handled. Whatever it takes to give Wilson the best chance to develop should be on the table. That should be the main priority of the organization and I think the draft proved that it is. A trade for a veteran pass receiving TE would not surprise me. 

Kenny Yeboah says hello.  I am not trading for Engram when the guy we have could actually turn out to be better and cheaper to boot.  Wait at least until training camp to see what we have in Yeboah.   

[choon328]

11 minutes ago, JetBlue said:

Kenny Yeboah says hello.  I am not trading for Engram when the guy we have could actually turn out to be better and cheaper to boot.  Wait at least until training camp to see what we have in Yeboah.   

Yeboah was undrafted for a reason. At best he's 2 years away from contributing.

Going into a season counting on an undrafted TE to be the starting TE in an offense that relied upon heavily in the pass and run game is a disaster waiting to happen. The Jets need to eliminate question marks around Wilson in order to set him up for success. Leaving that hole open and pinning your hopes to an undrafted TE to step up and start is like building a house and then installing a tarp on top of the house instead of a roof. I'm not sure why the Jets would go 95% on an offensive rebuild and then leave the last remaining 5% up to chance. 

[ryu79]

Funny thread. 

Let us rejoice that while we don't have a #1 - we actually have three, THREE dudes who COULD be in Davis, Mims and Moore. 

I know all three are unproven but this is exciting!

And that's before you even factor in that Crowder is really consistent and Cole is promising. 

[HawaiisOnlyJetsFan]

1 hour ago, choon328 said:

Yeboah was undrafted for a reason. At best he's 2 years away from contributing.

Going into a season counting on an undrafted TE to be the starting TE in an offense that relied upon heavily in the pass and run game is a disaster waiting to happen. The Jets need to eliminate question marks around Wilson in order to set him up for success. Leaving that hole open and pinning your hopes to an undrafted TE to step up and start is like building a house and then installing a tarp on top of the house instead of a roof. I'm not sure why the Jets would go 95% on an offensive rebuild and then leave the last remaining 5% up to chance. 

I don't think a pass catching TE is as important to this offense as you believe it is. Solid inline and down field blocking are far more important. We're not the 9ers and we don't have George Kittle. This idea some of you have that we are trying to create an identical copy of San Frans offense is dumbfounding. Shanahan wasn't force feeding Tamme and Hooper in Atlanta and they did just fine (offensively). 

[choon328]

7 hours ago, HawaiisOnlyJetsFan said:

I don't think a pass catching TE is as important to this offense as you believe it is. Solid inline and down field blocking are far more important. We're not the 9ers and we don't have George Kittle. This idea some of you have that we are trying to create an identical copy of San Frans offense is dumbfounding. Shanahan wasn't force feeding Tamme and Hooper in Atlanta and they did just fine (offensively). 

The TE is and has always an essential part of that offense. It's a run first offense that utilizes the TE in just about every situation. Nobody said anything about force feeding the TE. And I do whoever the Jets to run a very very similar offense to what the 49ers have been running. That's the point of bringing over their OC. It's the reason why Saleh can say that the system LaFleur is bringing over si the best in the world. It's bc its the Shanahan system. The only difference will probably be utilizing Wilson's athleticism more bc Garrapolo is a ******* statue.

Here is Shanahan as an OC with TE:

2008: Owen Daniels 70 Rec, 2nd on team

2009: Owen Daniels (injured) 40 rec in 8 games played

2010: Chris Cooley, 77 rec, 2nd on team 

2011: Fred Davis, 59 rec, 2nd on team

2012: Logan Paulsen 10 games started 25 rec, Davis 8 games played due to injury 24 rec, 49 total rec good for #1 on team 

2013: Jordan Reed 45 rec, 2nd on team

2014: Jordan Cameron 24 rec in 9 games (Injured). On pace to be 2nd on team in rec

2015: Jacob Tamme, 59 rec, 3rd on team behind Julio and a HB

2016: Jacob Tamme 5 starts (Injured) 22 rec/Hooper (Rookie) 3 starts 19 rec. 41 Total rec in 8 starts

Please don't try to suggest that the TE isn't an integral part of this offense. Throughout Shanahans history leading an offense everywhere he's went and no matter who the TE was they were always a big part of the offense. 

The Jets need a TE desperately 

[Jethead]

Herndon's contribution as a blocker tends to be overshadowed by his attacks of the dropsies or tendency to disappear at times.Would like to see us strengthen the position but not sure who would really help. Ertz is tempting but would probably be too pricey for what we would get. 

 

[slats]

11 hours ago, Shockwave said:

I feel like Cole was a great signing especially when you consider his analytics. 

Im still wondering when we cut crowder/other guys. You know you might even be able to resign crowder to a cheaper deal. Look at teams cap numbers. Crowder is not getting 10m a year in this market. 

Its either that or he gets traded for another guy on a 1 year deal. 

There's no rush. The Jets have no cap issues. I wouldn't expect any decisions on Crowder until training camp, unless they're sure they don't need him and want to do him the favor of cutting him early. I think they'll want to see how healthy their WRs are this year, first, and how the new additions look before doing anything rash. If anything, Crowder is probably gonna find himself in a position of either accepting a pay cut or being cut before the rosters get trimmed. 

[32EBoozer]

10 hours ago, JetBlue said:

Kenny Yeboah says hello.  I am not trading for Engram when the guy we have could actually turn out to be better and cheaper to boot.  Wait at least until training camp to see what we have in Yeboah.   

I’m sure him & Moore will be roommates after mini camp. Moore looks like a focused dude. Tape and playbook 5 nights/week.

[HawaiisOnlyJetsFan]

14 hours ago, choon328 said:

The TE is and has always an essential part of that offense. It's a run first offense that utilizes the TE in just about every situation. Nobody said anything about force feeding the TE. And I do whoever the Jets to run a very very similar offense to what the 49ers have been running. That's the point of bringing over their OC. It's the reason why Saleh can say that the system LaFleur is bringing over si the best in the world. It's bc its the Shanahan system. The only difference will probably be utilizing Wilson's athleticism more bc Garrapolo is a ******* statue.

Here is Shanahan as an OC with TE:

2008: Owen Daniels 70 Rec, 2nd on team

2009: Owen Daniels (injured) 40 rec in 8 games played

2010: Chris Cooley, 77 rec, 2nd on team 

2011: Fred Davis, 59 rec, 2nd on team

2012: Logan Paulsen 10 games started 25 rec, Davis 8 games played due to injury 24 rec, 49 total rec good for #1 on team 

2013: Jordan Reed 45 rec, 2nd on team

2014: Jordan Cameron 24 rec in 9 games (Injured). On pace to be 2nd on team in rec

2015: Jacob Tamme, 59 rec, 3rd on team behind Julio and a HB

2016: Jacob Tamme 5 starts (Injured) 22 rec/Hooper (Rookie) 3 starts 19 rec. 41 Total rec in 8 starts

Please don't try to suggest that the TE isn't an integral part of this offense. Throughout Shanahans history leading an offense everywhere he's went and no matter who the TE was they were always a big part of the offense. 

The Jets need a TE desperately 

In no way did I suggest that TEs aren't integral to the scheme. My point is that of the TEs you suggested, they are all decent to good receivers but questionable to bad blockers (except for ertz, who just old and an injury liability). Hence their usefulness isn't going to move the needle and are in no way as direly needed as you are making them out to be, especially if we have to trade for them. 

[Paradis]

On 5/5/2021 at 7:01 PM, JetBlue said:

Kenny Yeboah says hello.  I am not trading for Engram when the guy we have could actually turn out to be better and cheaper to boot.  Wait at least until training camp to see what we have in Yeboah.   

i don't want to dampen anyone's optimism, but I would temper your expectations with Kenny. If i'm wrong, i'll be overjoyed... If he sticks in the nfl, it's going to be as a blocker IMO. 

[JetBlue]

6 minutes ago, Paradis said:

i don't want to dampen anyone's optimism, but I would temper your expectations with Kenny. If i'm wrong, i'll be overjoyed... If he sticks in the nfl, it's going to be as a blocker IMO. 

I don't know, I think you are underrating him a bit.  I think he is much further along as a receiver than as a blocker.  Not that he is a bad blocker because he isn't and he really works at it but he needs to add a few pounds and get a little stronger in his upper body.   Still, with his athleticism, size, hands and speed, I find it hard to believe he won't make the team and make an impact as a rookie.  Especially considering who we have at TE.   At the very least he is projects as a solid move TE with the potential to develop to also be an In line TE.   I really believe he is going to surprise. 

[#27TheDominator]

I understand wanting the guy, but I want no part of Engram.  I feel like he is a rich man's Herndon.  He is a way better player, but for all his flashes of brilliance, he kills drives and makes obvious blunders.  Frustrating to me. 

[Jethead]

Ertz may not be a good enough blocker or be too expensive,  but he's not old. Would still kick the tires.