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The Benefits of a Saleh 4-2-5 from an un-trained eye.


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12 minutes ago, 32EBoozer said:

For years we have not had a #1 CB to shut down team #1 WR’s. How many 4th & long were just back shoulder PI completions. How many times would our DBs take their eye off the Qb as he ran for a 12 yd. 1st down? LB trying to cover a RB on a wheel route (David Harris)

With Saleh system, ball & WR stays in front of players. No need to track QB and WR. Layers of defense and a requirement to watch the Qb and react to the ball. Stephon Diggs is a great route runner and clinician. He twists CB in knots..... hopefully no longer. Give him his 15 yard sit down in a zone.... he can’t kill you there. Allen will have less opportunity to run with 6’2” 4.6 forty LB’s. A very solid front 4 with internal push with QW and Rankins and Lawson off edge. If Zuniga, Hamilcar or Huff can get pressure off the other side I can see us matching up well with Buffalo as long as our OL holds up and our personnel mart he’s the system.

A vet like Sherman or Nelson could be the cherry on top!

Don't forget Vince Curry as another spot duty candidate for some outside rush opposite Lawson.

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It’s going to come down to the pass rush. If QW and Rankins can stay healthy and get a good push on the interior, Lawson and JFM should be able to clean up and have nice sack numbers.

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1 hour ago, jgb said:

Defense is going to take longer to put into place than  offense. Just a feeling.

Going from a 3-4 to a 4-2-5?   nah.

I mean, the D Linemen all have different jobs, and you will have 2 linebackers on the field far more than 3 (or 4).   Otherwise, what can go wrong?

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3 hours ago, 32EBoozer said:

 

 

This excellent post from @Shockwave also expounds on the type of DB Saleh wants!
 

 

So how does this relate to the Jets 

Apparently this was a big thing for our draft class as this is a Robert Saleh's thing just like Dan Quinn as we will be running that Seattle D. 

Right after we drafted Sherwood and hamsah nasirildeen the first thing we likely all thought is: This is very different for the Jets. 

Both have arm lengths over 34. Its super apparent when you watch these guys they play big. Do these guys kind of remind anyone of a poor mans Kam Chancellor? Yea they do. 

Pinnock has very long arms for his size with a big vertical and was a WR. He was drafted by us in the 5th round. That sound like anyone elses story you know? Yea - Thats Richard Shermans exact story and exactly when he was drafted. 

So Gentleman while the Jets may not be speaking much of this please note we are absolutely attempting to make our version of the Legion of Boom on defense. Perhaps the above guys bust but you can clearly see the type of players we will want moving forward year to year.  

Except Joe Douglas is going to put his spin on it - He's going to get long players with extremely high character/High RAS and we are going to trade down a ton so we have multiple lottery tickets on this sort of player. I absolutely love it. 

Yes...

These are the attributes in players...that JD-Saleh are interested in to build the team with.  High character.  Love football.  Team captain types.  Smart and with multi-positional versatility.  Combined with speed and athleticism.  I believe one of these drafted players was nominated a couple of times for a scholarly athlete award.  

With a position coach like Tony Oden and others...these hybrid type players can surprise...and be coached to play significantly above their draft grades.  Many forget that most of that Legion Of Boom were like in that 4th-6th rounds area of the draft.  Just where the Jets drafted.

Don't know if this will be a consistent philosophical pattern.  Where Jets draft predominately for O in rounds 1-3.  And predominately use 4-7 for D.   I'm sure after evaluations after each season this...would be tweaked even if there is a pattern.  If Jets are weak at premium positions they would be targeted in those earlier rounds.  Edge-DT as well as OL-WR.  But CB-LB could be predominately drafted mid rounds as happened this year.  Same for RB.   TE is important for WCO so could be valued more in 2nd-4th rounds if a good one's available.

I'm truly impressed with the kind of symmetry Jets so far are forging...with the players they're bringing in.  Especially in this draft with Saleh's defense.  

IMO JD-Saleh are building a rock solid foundation...for what I call the 3 C's to emerge this season.

Culture...Chemistry...Competitiveness.  And then move forward into another FA-trade-draft process.  And coming out of it...as a consistent playoff team building towards a Lombardi Trophy.   

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13 minutes ago, GreenReaper said:

Yes...

These are the attributes in players...that JD-Saleh are interested in to build the team with.  High character.  Love football.  Team captain types.  Smart and with multi-positional versatility.  Combined with speed and athleticism.  I believe one of these drafted players was nominated a couple of times for a scholarly athlete award.  

With a position coach like Tony Oden and others...these hybrid type players can surprise...and be coached to play significantly above their draft grades.  Many forget that most of that Legion Of Boom were like in that 4th-6th rounds area of the draft.  Just where the Jets drafted.

Don't know if this will be a consistent philosophical pattern.  Where Jets draft predominately for O in rounds 1-3.  And predominately use 4-7 for D.   I'm sure after evaluations after each season this...would be tweaked even if there is a pattern.  If Jets are weak at premium positions they would be targeted in those earlier rounds.  Edge-DT as well as OL-WR.  But CB-LB could be predominately drafted mid rounds as happened this year.  Same for RB.   TE is important for WCO so could be valued more in 2nd-4th rounds if a good one's available.

I'm truly impressed with the kind of symmetry Jets so far are forging...with the players they're bringing in.  Especially in this draft with Saleh's defense.  

IMO JD-Saleh are building a rock solid foundation...for what I call the 3 C's to emerge this season.

Culture...Chemistry...Competitiveness.  And then move forward into another FA-trade-draft process.  And coming out of it...as a consistent playoff team building towards a Lombardi Trophy.   

Would much rather have 5-6 mid tier players being coached up & playing as a team than 1 upper tier player doing his thing at a non-premium position which CB is in Saleh system. Edge and LB

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32 minutes ago, Raideraholic said:

Good luck with that one , as the 5’8 midget a major liability in coverage.

Played out of position....bad coaching!

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2 minutes ago, Raideraholic said:

5’8 is 5’8 .   That isn’t going to get it done against the bigger Wr, and the Te’s in coverage.  

Why sign him then? Bad coaching. Raiders play man2man?

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A little funny singing such praise for this defense when it was kind of the way Bowles wanted it.  They drafted Darren Lee because he was fast and do the things that this saleh defense will be asking. Of course having the physical attributes doesn’t always mean a good player.

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11 minutes ago, rangerous said:

A little funny singing such praise for this defense when it was kind of the way Bowles wanted it.  They drafted Darren Lee because he was fast and do the things that this saleh defense will be asking. Of course having the physical attributes doesn’t always mean a good player.

I'll never forget the day that Bart Scott railed for like 5 mins on his show blasting Lee. The point that always stuck with me...."I' ve never seen a LBer in the NFL that avoids contact." Bart said/says a bunch of crazy stuff, but that was right on.

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57 minutes ago, section314 said:

I'll never forget the day that Bart Scott railed for like 5 mins on his show blasting Lee. The point that always stuck with me...."I' ve never seen a LBer in the NFL that avoids contact." Bart said/says a bunch of crazy stuff, but that was right on.

yep.  that's true but at the same time the guy was fast and that's the point i am making.  also both bowles and spagnola used 4-2-5 defenses in the superbowl.  this seems to be something that's catching on.

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19 minutes ago, rangerous said:

yep.  that's true but at the same time the guy was fast and that's the point i am making.  also both bowles and spagnola used 4-2-5 defenses in the superbowl.  this seems to be something that's catching on.

Agree totally.

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1 hour ago, rangerous said:

yep.  that's true but at the same time the guy was fast and that's the point i am making.  also both bowles and spagnola used 4-2-5 defenses in the superbowl.  this seems to be something that's catching on.

I think it's pretty much the base defense of the entire league. The 3-4 is a run-stopping scheme that's become less and less relevant in the league's current passing age. And with those offenses running 3-WR sets a majority of the time, defenses have to be in the nickel the majority of the time to compensate. 

I'm really hoping last year's third rounders find a place in this system. Seems tailor made for both of them.  

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11 minutes ago, slats said:

I think it's pretty much the base defense of the entire league. The 3-4 is a run-stopping scheme that's become less and less relevant in the league's current passing age. And with those offenses running 3-WR sets a majority of the time, defenses have to be in the nickel the majority of the time to compensate. 

I'm really hoping last year's third rounders find a place in this system. Seems tailor made for both of them.  

People get bogged down in the defensive front alignment but it is really the coverage and blitzing philosophies that define a defense.

For over the last decade we have had defensive coaches that were super aggressive blitz happy guys with mostly man coverage single high DB alignments.

Have never been a fan of that philosophy myself. I think of it as the "exclamation point" defenses as they led to a lot of notable stops on drives (!!! for us) but also led to a LOT of 3rd and long conversions (!!!! for them) Bowles, Williams and Rex did not want a PBU or tackles short of the sticks, they wanted a sack.

Saleh is different, he won't blitz much and we will play mostly Cover 2 and Cover 3 zone. Prevent the big plays, prevent the long 3rd down conversion, pretty much the opposite of what we have gotten used to.

Looking at our draft seems like we want to have the WILL and nickel in more hybrid box roles, very much like the role Adams played, but instead still having 2 deep safeties. Penetrators in the front 4. We will likely be slightly worse in run defense but better in coverage than last year.

Williams insisted on playing off man coverage last year which is like the worst situation of a CB that is not elite. And the defenses we have had really need those elite 1st round type CBs. We might not see us ever draft a CB early on this team.

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13 minutes ago, slats said:

I think it's pretty much the base defense of the entire league. The 3-4 is a run-stopping scheme that's become less and less relevant in the league's current passing age. And with those offenses running 3-WR sets a majority of the time, defenses have to be in the nickel the majority of the time to compensate. 

I'm really hoping last year's third rounders find a place in this system. Seems tailor made for both of them.  

Davis I see his potential. Zuniga in your estimation is capable of lining up across from Lawson? I like Huffs potential from a speed/bend quotient over Zuniga. Can you explain what you saw of him in college and last year that give you hope?

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7 minutes ago, 32EBoozer said:

Davis I see his potential. Zuniga in your estimation is capable of lining up across from Lawson? I like Huffs potential from a speed/bend quotient over Zuniga. Can you explain what you saw of him in college and last year that give you hope?

He has the athletic ability to get it done, and I think that playing strictly at DE instead of having to worry about any other LB type duties will make the job that much easier for him. Take a lot of the thinking out of it. I don't know if I could point to anything that I saw from him last year -I barely remember seeing him- but hope springs eternal! Jabari-Zuniga-RAS-19387.png?resize=806%2

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20 hours ago, 32EBoozer said:

As could LaMarcus Joyner. Don’t sleep on him.

I can't sleep on him, he is tiny, and I am much too large. That would be impossible.  

Animated GIF

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23 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

The way my also untrained eye sees it...

Saleh prizes a strong organic pass rush (4 guys who can generate pressure without tricks, crazy schemes, bringing up LBs and Safeties, etc.).  He wants to pressure, harass and force the opposing QB into making early throws, bad throws, etc. and then he wants his zone defense and a secondary with average talent to feast on those bad passes and cleanup the mess.  You can't have studs at every level of the D.... I think Saleh mostly wants his upfront.

This is a contrast to someone like Rex who "manufactured" as pass rush and ran things like overloads, blitzes, etc.  Rex's philosophy at times was, "If you have 5 or 6 blockers for your QB then I'm bringing 7 pass rushers.  You can't stop them all."  He counted on his excellent CBs, elite guys like Revis and very good ones like Cromartie to lock things down if his guys up front couldn't get to the QB quickly.

The talent in Rex's D was in the back end, the talent in Saleh's D will be up front I think.

We're going Edge with one of those two 1st round picks next year.  Saleh wants his Nick Bosa here with the Jets.

Rex learned his system from his Dad, the creator of the 46 Defense (which I Loved)... always attacking, creating pressure & hitting the QB & as you stated having very good shutdown CB's to allow the attackers to get to the QB... In today's football,  where if you sneeze on a QB or WR you're getting a flag it's very difficult for that type of defense to be effective... Saleh's "D" is more apt to be successful in today's NFL. 

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On 5/5/2021 at 11:50 AM, 32EBoozer said:

For years we have not had a #1 CB to shut down team #1 WR’s. How many 4th & long were just back shoulder PI completions. How many times would our DBs take their eye off the Qb as he ran for a 12 yd. 1st down? LB trying to cover a RB on a wheel route (David Harris)

With Saleh system, ball & WR stays in front of players. No need to track QB and WR. Layers of defense and a requirement to watch the Qb and react to the ball. Stephon Diggs is a great route runner and clinician. He twists CB in knots..... hopefully no longer. Give him his 15 yard sit down in a zone.... he can’t kill you there. Allen will have less opportunity to run with 6’2” 4.6 forty LB’s. A very solid front 4 with internal push with QW and Rankins and Lawson off edge. If Zuniga, Hamilcar or Huff can get pressure off the other side I can see us matching up well with Buffalo as long as our OL holds up and our personnel mart he’s the system.

A vet like Sherman or Nelson could be the cherry on top!

Since the rules have been made to encourage offense, specifically passing, I have been saying the best base defense is a one gap 4-2-5 with the DB/LB being the flex position vs. 3-4-4 with the DE/LB being the flex.  It is the way to go. 

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On 5/5/2021 at 10:50 AM, 32EBoozer said:

For years we have not had a #1 CB to shut down team #1 WR’s. How many 4th & long were just back shoulder PI completions. How many times would our DBs take their eye off the Qb as he ran for a 12 yd. 1st down? LB trying to cover a RB on a wheel route (David Harris)

With Saleh system, ball & WR stays in front of players. No need to track QB and WR. Layers of defense and a requirement to watch the Qb and react to the ball. Stephon Diggs is a great route runner and clinician. He twists CB in knots..... hopefully no longer. Give him his 15 yard sit down in a zone.... he can’t kill you there. Allen will have less opportunity to run with 6’2” 4.6 forty LB’s. A very solid front 4 with internal push with QW and Rankins and Lawson off edge. If Zuniga, Hamilcar or Huff can get pressure off the other side I can see us matching up well with Buffalo as long as our OL holds up and our personnel mart he’s the system.

A vet like Sherman or Nelson could be the cherry on top!

Why wouldn't you just use the more common term of "nickel"? It's the most commonly used defense in football in the modern NFL at 60%ish compared to 30% for "base defense" (3/4 or 4/3).

Sherman also seems more like a backup/rotional/fill-in player at this point. Good guy to have, but counting on him game-on and game-out might be too much. Of course, he'd still be an upgrade on this team right now. 

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7 hours ago, jeremy2020 said:

Why wouldn't you just use the more common term of "nickel"? It's the most commonly used defense in football in the modern NFL at 60%ish compared to 30% for "base defense" (3/4 or 4/3).

Sherman also seems more like a backup/rotional/fill-in player at this point. Good guy to have, but counting on him game-on and game-out might be too much. Of course, he'd still be an upgrade on this team right now. 

Nickel could mean max coverage in a two gap 34 vs. a one gap 4-2-5.  Nickel also suggests a package vs. a base defense.  Assignments are also different in a nickel package vs. a base 4-2-5.  They also position differently; 

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On 5/5/2021 at 11:11 AM, jetstream23 said:

The way my also untrained eye sees it...

Saleh prizes a strong organic pass rush (4 guys who can generate pressure without tricks, crazy schemes, bringing up LBs and Safeties, etc.).  He wants to pressure, harass and force the opposing QB into making early throws, bad throws, etc. and then he wants his zone defense and a secondary with average talent to feast on those bad passes and cleanup the mess.  You can't have studs at every level of the D.... I think Saleh mostly wants his upfront.

This is a contrast to someone like Rex who "manufactured" as pass rush and ran things like overloads, blitzes, etc.  Rex's philosophy at times was, "If you have 5 or 6 blockers for your QB then I'm bringing 7 pass rushers.  You can't stop them all."  He counted on his excellent CBs, elite guys like Revis and very good ones like Cromartie to lock things down if his guys up front couldn't get to the QB quickly.

The talent in Rex's D was in the back end, the talent in Saleh's D will be up front I think.

We're going Edge with one of those two 1st round picks next year.  Saleh wants his Nick Bosa here with the Jets.

FWIW w have 2 pro bowl caliber Safeties in Maye and Joyner and we have no idea how some of our young CB's will fair in the Zone D.

This is going to be a wait and see situation, also keep in mind we drafted 3 Hybrid type players that will be in or at least hopefully contributing on passing downs/3rd and long situations. 

I have no doubt Saleh and his staff will be coaching these guys up and going full motivation mode so we really have a lot of unknowns as to how all of this will shake out. I think our corners will fair better in this system and have more opportunity to create turnovers. Should be fun to watch . I think the Jets have a ton of talent on defense and could turn out to be special 

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Excited!!! Only took, 20 years? Hey on the bright side at least we didn’t trade or cut all those linemen we drafted over the last decade and they’ll finally Flourish 

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8 hours ago, jeremy2020 said:

Why wouldn't you just use the more common term of "nickel"? It's the most commonly used defense in football in the modern NFL at 60%ish compared to 30% for "base defense" (3/4 or 4/3).

Sherman also seems more like a backup/rotional/fill-in player at this point. Good guy to have, but counting on him game-on and game-out might be too much. Of course, he'd still be an upgrade on this team right now. 

The Baron nailed my response better than I could ever express!! What he said!

👍

1 hour ago, THE BARON said:

Nickel could mean max coverage in a two gap 34 vs. a one gap 4-2-5.  Nickel also suggests a package vs. a base defense.  Assignments are also different in a nickel package vs. a base 4-2-5.  They also position differently; 

 

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On 5/6/2021 at 9:48 AM, slats said:

I think it's pretty much the base defense of the entire league. The 3-4 is a run-stopping scheme that's become less and less relevant in the league's current passing age. And with those offenses running 3-WR sets a majority of the time, defenses have to be in the nickel the majority of the time to compensate. 

I'm really hoping last year's third rounders find a place in this system. Seems tailor made for both of them.  

What the base defense is called is much less important to how the defense is called.  Reacting real time and adjusting is everything.  

In 2009 and 2010, Rex's base defense, if he even had a base defense was more or less a two gap 34.  I say  more or less because you hardly ever saw the same thing twice.  There was a lot of over-load blitzing with pressing CB's but there was also a lot of variation in the coverage.  You saw man, zone, a combo of man and zone, loaded zone... Funneling the receivers inside, funneling them outside...  All sort of things.  You also saw all sorts of blitz types.  46 with both OLB's lined up on the weak side, zone blitz, read blitz.  All manner of stuff.  It wasn't what he called the base defense that was key.  It was the way he ran the defense based on real-time game action,

I figure it will be the same for Saleh.  He may call it a 4-2-5 as a base, but I'm sure it will be loaded with flexibility. 

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