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Trade up and pick of AVT being scrutinized (merged)


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With how things played out, I would have gone:

23: Teven Jenkins OL

66: Tommy Tremble TE

86: Quinn Meinerz C

Other options at CB: Aaron Robinson, Benjamin St-Juste, Ifeatu Melifonwu

I don't think we addressed offensive line enough as we could have last week....

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I agree.  I am so pissed we traded up for Revis when we could of got 2-3 mediocre to bad players

All you hear from them is about getting “value” for picks and how you should never trade up unless it’s for a QB and blah blah blah. While I get the fact that as a whole since the draft is a crap

At the end of the day the PFF analysts are a 6'9 foot failed baseball player, an Irishman who got the job because he was a good poster on an NFL forum, a lad who was the first person kicked off the ba

I enjoy their analysis. They gave us a 'A' grade at the end of the day, so it's all good. The problem with the Darrisaw reference is Minnesota had no way of known he'd fall to them at 23 when they made the trade. He could easily have been taken by Las Vegas, Washington and Indianapolis and the Vikings would then have been scrambling to take a Cosmi, Leatherwood, Eichenberg etc.

With a veteran QB, Minny could afford to take the risk of not taking a top tier o-lineman.  With Wilson, we couldn't. And analytics doesn't allow for nuance. Douglas took a 'bird in the hand' approach rather than hoping the board would fall a certain way. 

When the trade was announced, I liked it rather than loved it. We overpaid slightly. But had we offloaded our 107 in exchange instead of 86, we would have 'won' the trade per the trade chart, likely have taken Carter anyway, so the net outcome for NYJ is exactly the same. 

 

 

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On Move The Sticks, they liked the Jets trade up but in talking about the league in general, they always talk about how an oline is only as good as it's weakest starting player. They contend that opposing defenses scheme around teeing off on the weakest player on a teams oline.

Maybe in a zone scheme the line will perform better but If Clarke does not beat out Van Roten or we get lucky someone's last minute pre-season cut (like we did with Pete Kendall when he was cut from Arizona before the 2004 season), Van Roten and Fant on the right side of the line will continued to be targeted by opposing defenses. 

Derrishaw wasn't as highly rated as Vera Tucker, but having Derrishaw, at 23, Elijah Moore in the second round and then drafting guard and center with the two third round picks, seemed to me like a better use of resources for oline depth i.e. keeping Wilson off IR.

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So the rebuttal is essentially (assuming we consider people can't tell the future) take what the draft gives you correct? With the cost being third-round draft picks, I've no issue with JD aiming for potentially elite rather than potentially serviceable (more often than not third round picks are not elite)

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2 hours ago, derp said:

I think the Vera-Tucker selection is nuanced. If it boiled down to athleticism to play guard, Kendrick Green who the Steelers took with pick 87 (Jets could have theoretically taken him with either third rounder) is probably more athletic than AVT and did an awesome job on outside zone plays last year.

They had him graded more highly than the pick they traded up to, he’s potentially got the versatility to play tackle (maybe a replacement for Fant down the road or a spot left tackle if Becton continues missing snaps), and he’s a definite day one starter on a line that can use one.

I don’t know what they would’ve done with the picks but it could have been significant. I’m boring and fall in the middle. Those picks are useful and the multiple swings on players are important. More importantly iOL isn’t exactly a premium position - to really justify the trade up and pick that high he probably needs to be a Pro Bowl guard. Safe bet to be good though which is at least helpful and the Pro Bowl level play isn’t exactly out of the question which is pretty cool. I think he’ll turn out well.

Let's play an alternate reality game where we stay at 23, take an OL there (for simplicity's sake so we don't re-scramble their entire draft), and then grab the best guys on the board at 66 and 86. Teven Jenkins, Christian Darrisaw, whoever.  Who's there at those later picks who they take? (Again, no RB, leave Carter at 4)

At 66, where do they go? Double dip OL with Mayfield or Green? CB with Robinson or St. Juste? Edge with Koonce? Let's say Tommy Tremble at 66 and then what, Davis, Greene, or Meinerz at 86? 

That's definitely a nice set of picks but it's not easy to say you'd prefer it to a certain very good LG to protect your new QB, which is pretty much AVT's floor

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1 minute ago, yvj said:

So the rebuttal is essentially (assuming we consider people can't tell the future) take what the draft gives you correct? With the cost being third-round draft picks, I've no issue with JD aiming for potentially elite rather than potentially serviceable (more often than not third round picks are not elite)

this is assuming you can't get elite or close to it in 3rd round which teams routinely do. No one would be shocked if say Vera-Tucker and Wyatt Davis had similar careers.

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2 hours ago, RogerVick1980 said:

All you hear from them is about getting “value” for picks and how you should never trade up unless it’s for a QB and blah blah blah.

While I get the fact that as a whole since the draft is a crapshoot it’s better to have more picks then less and you should probably trade down more then up in general but there is so much nuance in football with scheme fit and other things to say don’t ever trade up is foolish.

The Jets feel Tucker is the athletic guard they need in Lafleurs system. They probably felt the guards they could take later on wouldn’t be nearly as athletic as him to run their scheme.

They also don’t want a repeat of the Darnold situation and want to protect their QB as much as possible so I get why they did it.

Like I I said I’m not anti analytics more info is good but I feel they take the human element out of it and deal strictly with value and numbers and it doesn’t work that way.

I remember PFF had a former GM on and they were telling him why don’t gm’s trade down basically all the time and the GM said you need a partner. Not every pick  is someone looking to move up into your spot.

I think you need a balance of numbers and nuance and human feel.

The analytics only deals with numbers and value.

 

 

I think it depends on how Darrisaw works out for The Vikes. 

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18 minutes ago, K_O_Brien said:

I enjoy their analysis. They gave us a 'A' grade at the end of the day, so it's all good. The problem with the Darrisaw reference is Minnesota had no way of known he'd fall to them at 23 when they made the trade. He could easily have been taken by Las Vegas, Washington and Indianapolis and the Vikings would then have been scrambling to take a Cosmi, Leatherwood, Eichenberg etc.

With a veteran QB, Minny could afford to take the risk of not taking a top tier o-lineman.  With Wilson, we couldn't. And analytics doesn't allow for nuance. Douglas took a 'bird in the hand' approach rather than hoping the board would fall a certain way. 

When the trade was announced, I liked it rather than loved it. We overpaid slightly. But had we offloaded our 107 in exchange instead of 86, we would have 'won' the trade per the trade chart, likely have taken Carter anyway, so the net outcome for NYJ is exactly the same. 

 

 

I think Minnesota had a great idea that Darrisaw would be there. Hence why they traded down. They knew after Slater was drafted they knew taking Darrisaw right there was an overdraft.

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19 minutes ago, Gangrene said:

On Move The Sticks, they liked the Jets trade up but in talking about the league in general, they always talk about how an oline is only as good as it's weakest starting player. They contend that opposing defenses scheme around teeing off on the weakest player on a teams oline.

Maybe in a zone scheme the line will perform better but If Clarke does not beat out Van Roten or we get lucky someone's last minute pre-season cut (like we did with Pete Kendall when he was cut from Arizona before the 2004 season), Van Roten and Fant on the right side of the line will continued to be targeted by opposing defenses. 

Derrishaw wasn't as highly rated as Vera Tucker, but having Derrishaw, at 23, Elijah Moore in the second round and then drafting guard and center with the two third round picks, seemed to me like a better use of resources for oline depth i.e. keeping Wilson off IR.

The Jets have already stated they would have taken Michael Carter at 66. 

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2 hours ago, RogerVick1980 said:

I agree and when I first heard the deal I thought maybe it was a little too much to give up but then thought about it and heard the Jets plan and  I feel better about it. I’m just saying I don’t think it’s some awful move like the analytics guys are saying.

One guy tweeted they could have had Darrisaw and Wyatt Davis instead of just Tucker.

Well maybe they didn’t like either of those guys for what their running or in general? 

Also it’s not really fair to expect the Raiders to pass on Darrisaw for Leatherwood

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23 minutes ago, Gangrene said:

On Move The Sticks, they liked the Jets trade up but in talking about the league in general, they always talk about how an oline is only as good as it's weakest starting player. They contend that opposing defenses scheme around teeing off on the weakest player on a teams oline.

Maybe in a zone scheme the line will perform better but If Clarke does not beat out Van Roten or we get lucky someone's last minute pre-season cut (like we did with Pete Kendall when he was cut from Arizona before the 2004 season), Van Roten and Fant on the right side of the line will continued to be targeted by opposing defenses. 

Derrishaw wasn't as highly rated as Vera Tucker, but having Derrishaw, at 23, Elijah Moore in the second round and then drafting guard and center with the two third round picks, seemed to me like a better use of resources for oline depth i.e. keeping Wilson off IR.

Right, and i imagine that douglas will be upgrading the other spots on the OL as well.  It’s not about how the line looks this year, but what about 2, 3 and 4 years from now.  Presumably the ‘weakest link’ will be considerably stronger than it is now, and that’s what he was going for.  It’s also important to consider the trade in the context of how important it is to get quality OL starters for the rookie qb, and that they have 4 picks in the first 2 rounds next year to address other needs.  Analytics only views the trade in a vacuum and that’s ok as long as we understand the limitations.  

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20 minutes ago, Doggin94it said:

Let's play an alternate reality game where we stay at 23, take an OL there (for simplicity's sake so we don't re-scramble their entire draft), and then grab the best guys on the board at 66 and 86. Teven Jenkins, Christian Darrisaw, whoever.  Who's there at those later picks who they take? (Again, no RB, leave Carter at 4)

At 66, where do they go? Double dip OL with Mayfield or Green? CB with Robinson or St. Juste? Edge with Koonce? Let's say Tommy Tremble at 66 and then what, Davis, Greene, or Meinerz at 86? 

That's definitely a nice set of picks but it's not easy to say you'd prefer it to a certain very good LG to protect your new QB, which is pretty much AVT's floor

All this, but I think it's also built around two questions and then a context:

1. Is it worth drafting a guard at 14? Sometimes. 

2. Is it worth trading up to 14 for a guard? Oof. Maybe? Probably not but it depends. 

The problem is that everything in those two questions is built on normal drafting circumstances. This year? Anything but that. I think this year the right move was to go in and get guys you are the surest about being good based on unprecedented and chaotic circumstances. If one of them is a guard, so be it. In a draft where third rounders held the least amount of value that we'll ever see in our lifetimes, yeah it was probably worth it this time around. 

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14 minutes ago, Morrissey said:

this is assuming you can't get elite or close to it in 3rd round which teams routinely do. No one would be shocked if say Vera-Tucker and Wyatt Davis had similar careers.

Davis landed in a good spot as did AVT. INTERESTING to track their careers.

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Everything is situational.  It's why metrics and PFF numbers don't work when constructing a team.  

Looking at the value of any individual you can find merits in PFF (or other analytics)

The value of a Franchise QB is almost incalculable....In the Jets case they're all in on Zach Wilson - and they clearly understand this..

AVT's value to the Jets is much higher than a team with an established QB or a strong OL.

It's not just about the position it's about developing the QB - that takes precedence over anything else.

The Jets clearly understand this - this was the best move of the draft.  JD knew what was right and had the courage to execute it.  Anyone trying to judge this move without context should not be taken seriously.

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All you hear from them is about getting “value” for picks...
To me, "value" doesn't just mean taking a guy that I think should have been drafted earlier. I look at draft value as where your evaluation and the players availability meet your need.

I know so many preach 'don't draft need' but when a player you have rated high is available in a spot you're at or can reasonably can get to and it's in your top remaining position of need, that's value to me.

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1 hour ago, Gangrene said:

On Move The Sticks, they liked the Jets trade up but in talking about the league in general, they always talk about how an oline is only as good as it's weakest starting player. They contend that opposing defenses scheme around teeing off on the weakest player on a teams oline.

Maybe in a zone scheme the line will perform better but If Clarke does not beat out Van Roten or we get lucky someone's last minute pre-season cut (like we did with Pete Kendall when he was cut from Arizona before the 2004 season), Van Roten and Fant on the right side of the line will continued to be targeted by opposing defenses. 

Derrishaw wasn't as highly rated as Vera Tucker, but having Derrishaw, at 23, Elijah Moore in the second round and then drafting guard and center with the two third round picks, seemed to me like a better use of resources for oline depth i.e. keeping Wilson off IR.

This is not 100% true. With AVT the Jets can leave him and Becton on an island, and then the protections can be used to help the weak guard if needed. Assuming he is what we think he is an elite guard improves the entire OL. IOL gets downplayed because a lesser talent can be an "OK" guard but very top guards are gamechangers. There is just not that many of them

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In a vacuum the analytics guys are correct. Over time the move the Jets made will net less talent for the Jets than staying pat.

But this assumes that all evaluations are the same (and in this case also match the PFF grade) and are not affected by skill of the GM and his staff. 

If we allow that Douglas evaluation of AVTs prospects in the NFL is more accurate and has a higher upside than the median value, the trade can even be lopsided in favor of the Jets. Several analysts say that he will be Martin/Nelson level. If that is true it is a fantastic trade.

Also though the analysis looks at picks sort of as pass/fail. Well AVT likely has a floor of above average guard so again that is in the Jets favor.

It's sort of like saying Negranu would be the same poker player online and in person, which is clearly not true because in person he can pick up on all the tells and body language of the players around him

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1 hour ago, Doggin94it said:

Let's play an alternate reality game where we stay at 23, take an OL there (for simplicity's sake so we don't re-scramble their entire draft), and then grab the best guys on the board at 66 and 86. Teven Jenkins, Christian Darrisaw, whoever.  Who's there at those later picks who they take? (Again, no RB, leave Carter at 4)

At 66, where do they go? Double dip OL with Mayfield or Green? CB with Robinson or St. Juste? Edge with Koonce? Let's say Tommy Tremble at 66 and then what, Davis, Greene, or Meinerz at 86? 

That's definitely a nice set of picks but it's not easy to say you'd prefer it to a certain very good LG to protect your new QB, which is pretty much AVT's floor

Yeah I think where the analytics stuff kind of falls apart is not taking into account that teams that have a while in between picks might have taken someone way earlier. Is the new pick happening at #23 or might they have taken Moore at #23 and it’s actually someone else at #34. Same with #86, #107, and Carter.

I’m sure they *could* have done something I would’ve preferred without reading up but I’m less confident I actually would have preferred what they did without trading up.

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12 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

In a vacuum the analytics guys are correct. Over time the move the Jets made will net less talent for the Jets than staying pat.

But this assumes that all evaluations are the same (and in this case also match the PFF grade) and are not affected by skill of the GM and his staff. 

If we allow that Douglas evaluation of AVTs prospects in the NFL is more accurate and has a higher upside than the median value, the trade can even be lopsided in favor of the Jets. Several analysts say that he will be Martin/Nelson level. If that is true it is a fantastic trade.

Also though the analysis looks at picks sort of as pass/fail. Well AVT likely has a floor of above average guard so again that is in the Jets favor.

It's sort of like saying Negranu would be the same poker player online and in person, which is clearly not true because in person he can pick up on all the tells and body language of the players around him

It’s a sample size issue. In the long run you’re better off trading down or not trading up but there are certainly situations that trading down would be the better option.

I do think Douglas will be trading down more than he trades up, too.

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4 hours ago, RogerVick1980 said:

All you hear from them is about getting “value” for picks and how you should never trade up unless it’s for a QB and blah blah blah.

While I get the fact that as a whole since the draft is a crapshoot it’s better to have more picks then less and you should probably trade down more then up in general but there is so much nuance in football with scheme fit and other things to say don’t ever trade up is foolish.

The Jets feel Tucker is the athletic guard they need in Lafleurs system. They probably felt the guards they could take later on wouldn’t be nearly as athletic as him to run their scheme.

They also don’t want a repeat of the Darnold situation and want to protect their QB as much as possible so I get why they did it.

Like I I said I’m not anti analytics more info is good but I feel they take the human element out of it and deal strictly with value and numbers and it doesn’t work that way.

I remember PFF had a former GM on and they were telling him why don’t gm’s trade down basically all the time and the GM said you need a partner. Not every pick  is someone looking to move up into your spot.

I think you need a balance of numbers and nuance and human feel.

The analytics only deals with numbers and value.

 

 

The only reason the Tucker trade is being made a stink by many is what the Vikings picked with those 3 picks shown below. OK it is a good haul, but we obviously would not have picked the QB, and even though it is 2 Olineman neither one is rated so high for a G as Tucker who is also rate very highly as a LT. Now if he becomes an all world OLineman and helps solidify the Jets Oline, and the 2 below are good but not in the same ballpark as Tucker, then maybe it won't be mentioned all that much in a year or two when we know for sure. But , as far as draft rating, Tucker was ranked by most in the top 10 and the best G in the draft, whereas for the two below Darrisaw was rated probably between top 15-20, while Wyatt Davis was rated to be a 3rd rounder.  

OT Darrisaw

QB Mond

G Wyatt Davis

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41 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

This is not 100% true. With AVT the Jets can leave him and Becton on an island, and then the protections can be used to help the weak guard if needed. Assuming he is what we think he is an elite guard improves the entire OL. IOL gets downplayed because a lesser talent can be an "OK" guard but very top guards are gamechangers. There is just not that many of them

I'm still skeptical that Becton can stay healthy for a full season.

Vera Tucker is a player with exciting potential and I understand you're a big Wilson proponent but ZW he had all day to sit back behind the BYU oline last season; we'll see how much the Jets can replicate that BYU level of protection for him in the AFC East alone.  Miami added Jaelen Philips, the Bills added Greg Rousseau, the Pats added Christian Barmore and Ronnie Perkins. Not a bad bunch of rookies to test the Jets oline, if they manage to see some playing time for their respective teams. Roll on September.

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4 hours ago, undertow said:

Every GM has their own board and I know this may sound crazy but it's not always the same as a bunch of reporters and Youtube scouts.  Douglas obviously valued AVT much higher then what he could have got at 23 so he moved up.  Similarly and contrary to popular belief he probably didn't value Mims that much and had a bunch of players grouped together so he moved down last year.  What this years draft proved to me is he's not married to one draft ideology and is flexible....thankfully.

JD showed a lot a flexibility over the past two years.  I agree with your first point.  Most of us casual fans see the ADP and want to get value but often the draft board is built with a sense of confidence in each pick.  This often comes from the interconnections between coaches (NFL & College) and the scouts.  Many players just do not make the list especially the higher draft picks for one reason or another.  The Jets had confidence that AVT will work professionally and schematically.  I hope they are right.   

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3 hours ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

The analytics people loved the Jets draft (PFF gave the Jets an A) while at the same time thought the trade up was not a smart analytic decision.  They feel the value of Darrishaw (that fell to 23) plus the 2 3rd round picks was worth more than just Tucker. 

That's a fair critique. It's OK for a GM to sometimes make those types of decisions if they truly love a player, especially when he has spent the last 2 years accumulating a boat load of picks. 
 

There's no guarantee that Darrishaw would have lasted until 23 and the Jets could have lost out on both he and AVT.

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1 hour ago, Gangrene said:

I'm still skeptical that Becton can stay healthy for a full season.

Vera Tucker is a player with exciting potential and I understand you're a big Wilson proponent but ZW he had all day to sit back behind the BYU oline last season; we'll see how much the Jets can replicate that BYU level of protection for him in the AFC East alone.  Miami added Jaelen Philips, the Bills added Greg Rousseau, the Pats added Christian Barmore and Ronnie Perkins. Not a bad bunch of rookies to test the Jets oline, if they manage to see some playing time for their respective teams. Roll on September.

Yes Wilson was pressured the least but still like 20% of the time and if the Top 5 he was best against pressure. 

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6 hours ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

If Becton is only D'brick, I'll be pretty disappointed.  

Brick was rock solid for us. 3 time pro bowl LT. Not any random good player at possibly the second most important position in the league. I’d love to see Becton be Brick but of course it’ll be pleasant surprise if one of our picks end up being all-pro, for a change. 

Anyways I wasn’t comparing the players. Becton does have more upside. Can he realize it? I hope so. 

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4 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Everything is situational.  It's why metrics and PFF numbers don't work when constructing a team.  

Looking at the value of any individual you can find merits in PFF (or other analytics)

The value of a Franchise QB is almost incalculable....In the Jets case they're all in on Zach Wilson - and they clearly understand this..

AVT's value to the Jets is much higher than a team with an established QB or a strong OL.

It's not just about the position it's about developing the QB - that takes precedence over anything else.

The Jets clearly understand this - this was the best move of the draft.  JD knew what was right and had the courage to execute it.  Anyone trying to judge this move without context should not be taken seriously.

Minnesota understands this too. Three of their first four picks were 2 offensive lineman and a quarterback

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5 hours ago, RutgersJetFan said:

They are not saying the Jets should not trade up for good players. They are saying positional value matters when grading drafts. Trading up for interior linemen is a risky venture because if he doesn't turn into a great player then it's probably not worth the trade because you can find good interior linemen with picks later than 14th overall. Trading up for skill positions falls lower on the risk/reward scale because on an individual level those positions on average can have larger overall impacts on a win. Trading up for an average CB or WR is different than trading up for an average G. Everyone agrees AVT is a great prospect, it's a matter of how good does a guard have to be to justify trading up for him in the first round; great.

Fair Play. Lots of great responses from you later on in the thread - Just using the above to segway into the PFF positional value debate. 

I am a big fan of analytics in general and in other sports they are gospel like baseball. But in football they are only one piece of the pie. What they don't take into account is year to year variations especially during a covid year and individual teams draft tendencies. 

Before we start lets just let it be known PFF missed horribly on Josh Allen as well as Justin Herbert. They were terribly wrong on both.  So yea I value some of their statistics but just like all information out there everyone has to take what they say with a grain of salt. 

For example we theres an argument that the Jets could find  lineman in the middle rounds? Well we drafted Chuma Edoga in the 3rd and Cam Clarke in the 4th in the last two years. While I still have high hopes for them they both are likely bench players.  Yea it certainly works for several other teams but not us at this point. Lets check out this thread from Pro Football Reference. 

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2015/2/20/8072877/what-the-statistics-tell-us-about-the-draft-by-round

The Success Rate of First Round OLine is 83%. Among the highest hit rates at any position. The 3rd Round is only 40%. So while Jason or PFF may make these general comments in a vacuum - I would think looking at our particular situation Douglas wanted to address the Oline up top was about not taking chances. Especially when Sam was getting killed back there and we have a rookie QB coming in. 

Now Let me take this one step further in why Jason is wrong as well as PFF. They are grading these guys in a historical model like its a normal year. 

Yet all we heard all offseason is:

1- Many Teams only had 10-15 graded first round picks this year. 

2-Many teams were drafting guys in round 5 that would be UDFA's in normal years. 

So Obviously the grading of players was totally different this year. Them being drafted in particular round this year meant less then ever. 

Going Further regarding the Lineman this year: This was the craziest lineman class to grade ever. All Short arms. So many position changes. So many random Variables. For ex

1 - Sewell got drafted as a RT. If he's generational how does he slip to 7 and get moved to RT?

2- While I like Slater he has short arms and can anyone say he is a lockdown LT in the NFL?

3- AVT is the top lineman to actually play this year. Nuts no?

4- Per Jeremiahs Tweet 

It was all over the map this year. Leatherwood so high? Eichenberg is guard or tackle? Really the whole class is a guard or tackle? It's like the write up for every player. 

5- As I mentioned these guys are loving the trade for the Vikings but the whole trade for the Vikings only makes sense if Darrisaw hits. Right? He's a Premium Position?

Well how many Franchise LT's get passed on by 23 teams. If Darrisaw is a franchise LT why would the Vikings trade down? Why did the BEST Gm in the league pass on him at 21? Well heres his response. 

Quote

It doesn’t sound like Colts brass was particularly high on the top-shelf LT prospects. “It just didn’t match up,” Ballard said, via Stephen Holder of The Athletic. “How many true left tackles were in the draft? We’ll see. … If you’re gonna draft a guy that high, and you’re drafting him to be a left tackle, you’d like to know that he’s going to be that his whole career.”

https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/colts_gm_chris_ballard_tries_to_justify_not_drafting_a_left_tackle/s1_14819_34800452

Last note - Tevin Jenkins was ranked in the late 30's to 40's by every reputable draft guy by the end and we literally passed on him. Yes - he took Ossai's soul but he too was passed on time and time again by teams with needs at the position. While he was ranked in the late 30's-40's AVT was a top 7 player on our board

Jason/PFF is absolutely Wrong- The Answer was not to stay put and draft Tevin Jenkins 15 spots before his actually ranking. What are we the Raiders? The answer was to not hope to get lucky in the midrounds with offensive lineman - We tried that - It has not worked. You just got Darnold Killed and we have a 200 pound rookie QB coming in. You can not take that chance. You take a top 7 player on your board and the number 1 lineman that actually played football this year. 

In a Vacuum I can see what they are saying. In a historical model where your grading thousands of trades I see what they are saying. But for THIS team in THIS covid draft those guys are dead wrong. 

Jets had their best draft in 20 years. Ill be on the side of Joe Doulas and Chris Ballard in this debate. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Jet2020 said:

Brick was rock solid for us. 3 time pro bowl LT. Not any random good player at possibly the second most important position in the league. I’d love to see Becton be Brick but of course it’ll be pleasant surprise if one of our picks end up being all-pro, for a change. 

Anyways I wasn’t comparing the players. Becton does have more upside. Can he realize it? I hope so. 

If Becton has a 10 year career, 3 pro bowls, 0 All pros, and then quits, yes, I would be hugely disappointed with a player with his size, ability,  and potential. 

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7 hours ago, Shockwave said:

Just my opinion here. 

In this years draft we drafted 10 players. In next years draft we have like 13 picks. Thats before UDFA's and FA. At a certain point we are going to be drafting backups high meaning we are not going to have depth issues. 

To compete with Mahomes eventually we need several All Pro's. Not Fill in's or JAG's. 

If Joe Douglas thinks theres a All Pro or Pro Bowler on the board he needs to move up. I am absolutely confident we could get the Wyatt Daviss of the World later in the draft as those guys are completely replaceable. 

We are talking about giving up 3rd round picks here. 

We need blue chip players.  A few top 5 guys at their positions.  AVT should be that.  Getting a Zach Martin caliber guard for a couple thirds is worth it. 
 

Becton and Quinnen will be top 5 guys at their position. AVT hopefully is next.  

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9 hours ago, Morrissey said:

Minnesota understands this too. Three of their first four picks were 2 offensive lineman and a quarterback

I think Minn. had a very good draft. 

Really doesn't change the fact that the Jets situation and the Viking situation are entirely different.  Situational nuance matters.

Jets trading up, imo, was the best move in the draft

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If Becton has a 10 year career, 3 pro bowls, 0 All pros, and then quits, yes, I would be hugely disappointed with a player with his size, ability,  and potential. 
The guy was one of the top LTs, he missed All Pro to HOF Joe Thomas (1st team All-Pro 6 of those 10 years) and Andrew Whitworth and some other guys that made one but didn't have great careers. The guy never missed a game in his career. Would you rather he made an all pro team or two and missed big chunks of multiple seasons or averaged 10-12 games a year like Jake Long, Ryan Clady and numerous other 1-2 time all pro selections?

Joe Thomas is the gold standard, I'll give you that, but he's like the Jeter of LTs for that time period.
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18 hours ago, adobolo2 said:

At the end of the day the PFF analysts are a 6'9 foot failed baseball player, an Irishman who got the job because he was a good poster on an NFL forum, a lad who was the first person kicked off the bachelorette and a guy who just tells stories about his alcoholic father and criminal mother......I'll take joe Douglas decision to trade up over that bunch's critique of it.

I would love to see a link on this.  Not being snarky, as I believe you 100 %.  I just badly want to read many, many words about this rag-tag group of useless misfits.  

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