Trade up and pick of AVT being scrutinized (merged)

[slats]

Drafting a guard at #14 is suspect enough without trading away two third round picks for the privilege of drafting a guard. I don't hate the trade but I really don't like it, either, and feel it deserves the scrutiny it's getting. I understand the importance of fixing the OL, but I'm really not too sure that AVT is two third round picks better than what might've been available at #23. Would've been Jenkins, at least. Then in the third he could've picked up another to hedge his bet. 

It comes down to AVT needing to be a stud out of the gate to make it worth it. And even then, you're kinda rationalizing the value. But if it leads to Zach Wilson becoming a successful QB, no one will care. 

[Morrissey]

7 minutes ago, Shockwave said:

A week later and I still can't believe people are upset at trading 3rd round picks to potentially acquire a Pro Bowl or All Pro player. 

It's the 3rd round. The chance of these picks hitting are usually have a  30% of hitting as opposed to the 86% chance of lineman hitting in round 1. Our last few 3rd round picks have been Jachai Polite, Chuma Edoga and Zuninga. 

There are just so many factors specifically in this draft most are ignoring. We settled on Wilson a month before the draft so this was extremely thought out. It was a Covid draft in which the talent was depleted and 3rd rounders may have been selected in the 5th round in other years per several scouts pre draft. The Bears gave up a future first(Premium Pick) a few picks before this yet we were able to make this trade for 3rds (Non Premium picks). Our mid round lineman (Edoga + Clarke) have not sniffed the field and lastly this pick reinforces Douglas's other high picks (Wilson + Becton). 

How many times did you all read that there were only 15 true first round graded players this year? Meaning the 23rd pick would have been a second round graded player? If your staring at the Jets draft board and your looking at Tevin Jenkins ranked 40th on your board and AVT ranked 7th well then I would think you would be pretty pumped about the move. 

So while PFF and these other guys certainly are making a point- Its only one piece of the pie when your evaluating the trade and who we picked up. 

For me - Its a week after and the theme Im seeing in all the FA and Draft decisions are the Jets are swinging for the fences attempting to get All Pro's rather then average players and I love it. I truly hope the Jets continue to be aggressive in FA/the Draft like they did this year from the Lawson signing to the AVT selection all the way down to Pinnock/Marshall picks. Best offseason in 20 years. 

Where exactly are you pulling these %'s from?

[Morrissey]

I take Teven Jenkins and Quinn Meinerz over just AVT.... all day every day

[JoJoTownsell1]

I'm old enough to remember when this board wanted a GM that did everything in his power to rebuild the offensive line. 

[section314]

13 hours ago, Dcat said:

OMG. Cadigan. Cadigan turned out to be a stiff.  Wasn't Mike Haight a guard picked in round 1 also or was it round 2? 

RD #1, and most had him as a 3-4 rd guy.

[Augustiniak]

33 minutes ago, slats said:

Drafting a guard at #14 is suspect enough without trading away two third round picks for the privilege of drafting a guard. I don't hate the trade but I really don't like it, either, and feel it deserves the scrutiny it's getting. I understand the importance of fixing the OL, but I'm really not too sure that AVT is two third round picks better than what might've been available at #23. Would've been Jenkins, at least. Then in the third he could've picked up another to hedge his bet. 

It comes down to AVT needing to be a stud out of the gate to make it worth it. And even then, you're kinda rationalizing the value. But if it leads to Zach Wilson becoming a successful QB, no one will care. 

the draft strategy was interesting, contrasting their approach to offensive line vs defensive secondary.  for OL, they drafted only 1 guy the entire draft, but they wanted a guy they considered to be a stud, and they wanted a guard.  They could have drafted a center or RT later on but passed.  they wanted one top guard prospect, period.  they had enough picks to add more OL if they wanted, and they clearly could have stayed at 23 and opted for alternative OL strategies.

by contrast, for db, they took 5 guys and seem content to let the numbers game and pure odds dictate who emerges.  it's as if they don't care who is good and who isn't, as long as they hit on, say, 2 of the 5.  

now consider free agency.  the top OL go for top dollar.  there's still quite a few decent dbs out there.  good OL are hard to get, and are valued more, perhaps way more, on average, than a good safety or cb.  this also dovetails with the jets not in any rush to sign maye, who i believe won't be here in 2022.

[DoubleDown]

41 minutes ago, Shockwave said:

A week later and I still can't believe people are upset at trading 3rd round picks to potentially acquire a Pro Bowl or All Pro player.

I don't think you are going to run into many upset Jets fans if AVT becomes a Pro Bowl or All Pro player.  But that's the thing.  In order for this trade to be considered a win for the Jets long term, that's exactly what AVT needs to become.  If he becomes an average or solid OG, it's a bad move for the Jets.

[HawkeyeJet]

Lots of arguments about could have had this OL plus that OL later that would be way better than trading up for AVT.

That may be true, it may not be true, but it seems to get ignored at OL more than any other position that scheme matters.  Jenkins is the most common name I see, but he's not a a great zone blocking prospect.  So by taking Jenkins the Jets would be gambling on two things.  1) Jenkins can play Guard and 2) He can produce in the zone scheme even though his traits don't necessarily point to that being the case.

[GreenReaper]

It's the QB...stupid!

Three years ago...Jets drafted with #3 pick...a rookie QB...Sam Darnold.  Surrounded by poor OL protection and weapons.  He failed miserably.  Jets had to do it again.  Use the #2 pick and draft another QB...Zach Wilson.

They moved up and also drafted AVT.  Considered the best OG prospect in the draft.  Most importantly...a top 10 talent on JD's big board.  AVT playing alongside Becton should allow Jets left side of the OL...the blindside to the QB...to be a dominate one.  

PROTECTION:  Mission accomplished.

 

Jets had WR Elijah Moore as a 1st round prospect...high on JD's big board.  After Day 1 of the draft...Moore was still available.  Jets happily pounced on Moore and drafted him with their pick #34.

On Day 3 Jets were surprised to see RB Michael Carter still available.  And pounced on him with pick #107.  Carter lead the Nation in most runs of 20+ yards and had excellent receiving skills.

WEAPONS:  Mission accomplished.

Again...it's the QB...stupid! 

 

 

  

[isired]

the draft strategy was interesting, contrasting their approach to offensive line vs defensive secondary.  for OL, they drafted only 1 guy the entire draft, but they wanted a guy they considered to be a stud, and they wanted a guard.  They could have drafted a center or RT later on but passed.  they wanted one top guard prospect, period.  they had enough picks to add more OL if they wanted, and they clearly could have stayed at 23 and opted for alternative OL strategies.
by contrast, for db, they took 5 guys and seem content to let the numbers game and pure odds dictate who emerges.  it's as if they don't care who is good and who isn't, as long as they hit on, say, 2 of the 5.  
now consider free agency.  the top OL go for top dollar.  there's still quite a few decent dbs out there.  good OL are hard to get, and are valued more, perhaps way more, on average, than a good safety or cb.  this also dovetails with the jets not in any rush to sign maye, who i believe won't be here in 2022.

I think the 'strategy' in the secondary was dictated by the trade up to grab AVT. I have to believe that the Jets would have gone secondary with one if not both of the R3 picks if they sat tight and got an OL at 23. But I also can't blame them for valuing AVT much higher than any other G prospect, especially considering scheme. Its not a stretch to say he could wind up the only day 1 starter in the group.

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, slats said:

Drafting a guard at #14 is suspect enough without trading away two third round picks for the privilege of drafting a guard. I don't hate the trade but I really don't like it, either, and feel it deserves the scrutiny it's getting. I understand the importance of fixing the OL, but I'm really not too sure that AVT is two third round picks better than what might've been available at #23. Would've been Jenkins, at least. Then in the third he could've picked up another to hedge his bet. 

It comes down to AVT needing to be a stud out of the gate to make it worth it. And even then, you're kinda rationalizing the value. But if it leads to Zach Wilson becoming a successful QB, no one will care. 

By my memory, you were against drafting O-line high for most of the leadup to this draft, till the very end when (I think) you realized it was likely going to happen, regardless of if you like it or not.  In that light, the post above is to be expected.  You always seem to have thought O-line could be filled in the later rounds.

We'll see...drafting a Guard that high after trading up is in fact a risky move for a GM.  I think you're right to say that AVT needs to produce and produce immediately in order to help justify the trade-up and selection.  I also think you're right in that if Wilson is kept clean and free from pounding, no one is going to remember this trade.  It's not like we're stocked with hugely successful third round picks, generally.

JD has set the stage:  Everything on the NY Jets is about Wilson first and foremost.  Our future depends on him, and he will depend on being protected.  That is AVT's job and value, if he does it.

[JohnnyLV]

I am baffled why this is such a gigantic issue with people. 

1. We did NOT give up 2 3rd rounders, we gave up 1 3rd rounder and trade down with the other 57 spots, the equivalent VALUE of a low third rounder but we still had a pick. So in the end we picked 1 less player, not 2

2. Hindsight is awesome in criticizing the draft. At the time of the trade, you could not assume that Jenkins or Darrishaw would be there at 23 and we also have no idea what his value was on NFLs boards, but it seems Jenkins was really valued at a 2nd round grade. And we would have taken the same player we got at 34 so we would have lost the value of a 3rd rounder there anyway in hindsight. None of the analytics guys mention that.

3. So the value guys are saying that lesser prospects at 23, 66 and 86 are better than prospects at 14 and 143. There is NO way to know this. Yes the Jets could have gotten 2 guards instead of 1 but both would have been lesser prospects than AVT.  

6. We traded 143 for 154 and 186. So in the end we wound up with AVT, Michael Carter II and Nazrildeen as opposed to something like Jenkins at 34, and something like Brady Christensen and probably Michael Carter at running back way earlier. At 23 JD has stated he would have taken Moore at that spot, so 2 of our selected players would have likely been the same based on our draft board but much earlier

It is impossible to know how players pan out but first round guards are incredibly safe picks which ironically is the reason the draft geeks do not like them because on analytics alone a G in the 3rd round is similar in value to one in the 1st. But that value is done without any regard to a teams scouting. The whole argument is idiotic. We will know in 3 years (sooner on AVT likely) but I would not bet money that

Moore/Jenkins/Christensen/ Carter is better than AVT MC2 and Nazrildeen especially since we got 2 of those players at much lower spots than expected. 

 

[slats]

23 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

the draft strategy was interesting, contrasting their approach to offensive line vs defensive secondary.  for OL, they drafted only 1 guy the entire draft, but they wanted a guy they considered to be a stud, and they wanted a guard.  They could have drafted a center or RT later on but passed.  they wanted one top guard prospect, period.  they had enough picks to add more OL if they wanted, and they clearly could have stayed at 23 and opted for alternative OL strategies.

by contrast, for db, they took 5 guys and seem content to let the numbers game and pure odds dictate who emerges.  it's as if they don't care who is good and who isn't, as long as they hit on, say, 2 of the 5.  

now consider free agency.  the top OL go for top dollar.  there's still quite a few decent dbs out there.  good OL are hard to get, and are valued more, perhaps way more, on average, than a good safety or cb.  this also dovetails with the jets not in any rush to sign maye, who i believe won't be here in 2022.

Agree all around. He was clearly focused on nailing his offensive picks to support the QB. While in the second half of the draft, he was obviously focused on the defense but seemed to trust the coaches to get the most out of the big, long, athletic guys he targeted late. At worst, they have a large selection of guys who should be useful on special teams.  

I get that offensive linemen are getting paid nowadays. The fact that the NFL tagging system doesn't differentiate between LT and every other position on the line is really helping to get every OL paid. And that's fine. I could see it leading to AVT only being here for five or six years before he's simply unaffordable (a good problem to have). And again, that's no big deal if his play leads to Zac Wilson developing into a true franchise QB. 

[derp]

It’s a funny mix of risky and conservative.

First round guards have a low bust rate, but excluding the 2013 top ten guards in that awful draft class, guards taken as high as the middle of the first are usually Pro Bowl level players. Lot of pressure to warrant that pick.

My guess is that if Douglas viewed the worst case to be an improved OL to protect the rookie QB and best case to be adding a Pro Bowl guard, it’s a good risk/reward specific to the Jets.

There’s a shot to do something like what Dallas did several years ago and just build an insane OL that carries the team for a bit with a rookie QB - only if Saleh makes it happen on the other side of the ball there’s a defense too.

Hope he ends up being a Pro Bowler. Would be a lot of fun.

[slats]

8 minutes ago, Warfish said:

By my memory, you were against drafting O-line high for most of the leadup to this draft, till the very end when (I think) you realized it was likely going to happen, regardless of if you like it or not.  In that light, the post above is to be expected.  You always seem to have thought O-line could be filled in the later rounds.

We'll see...drafting a Guard that high after trading up is in fact a risky move for a GM.  I think you're right to say that AVT needs to produce and produce immediately in order to help justify the trade-up and selection.  I also think you're right in that if Wilson is kept clean and free from pounding, no one is going to remember this trade.  It's not like we're stocked with hugely successful third round picks, generally.

JD has set the stage:  Everything on the NY Jets is about Wilson first and foremost.  Our future depends on him, and he will depend on being protected.  That is AVT's job and value, if he does it.

Your memory is faulty. There was an obvious need, and once the Jets failed to land a significant upgrade in free agency it was very clear that he was going to have to take an OL by pick #34, and I was all for that. I even started a thread on the subject. 

I do feel that the OL should be filled out with later picks. Rookie starters on the IOL are frequently found in the third round, and players drafted later (or not drafted at all) frequently develop into starters after a year or two of training in an NFL system. I definitely, 100% feel that's the proper way to build an OL. I have no problem whatsoever with two first rounders on there, I will have a problem if he triple-dips in the first next year, though.

I'm hoping that Joe Douglas starts drafting more developmental OL next year. He skipped it this year because he couldn't completely ignore the defense so, after ignoring it for four rounds, he double-dipped at WLB and CB. But he needs to get bodies in the queue as Fant and McGovern's contracts expire. 

[fullblast]

It's hard for me to look at the Jets' first 4 selections and come away upset with anything they did in those rounds. They did give up value with the trade up, but they also selected a player at 107 in Carter who they probably would have taken at 66 (according to JD himself), so they got some value back there as well.

So let's say they stood pat and picked at their original spots.

23 - Jenkins
34 - Moore
66 - Carter
86 - Green
107 - Jabril Cox? (Going by their day 3 defensive strategy this might have been the pick)

That's... better? I guess? From a quantity standpoint this looks better on paper, but the reality of it is the Jets viewed AVT as a significantly better prospect than either Jenkins or Green. They had him as their 7th overall rated player in the draft. It's also questionable whether they had a higher grade on a guy like Kendrick Green or Wyatt Davis than they do on Cam Clark, who they expect to compete for the other G spot this summer. That likely also factored into their decision.

I really can't knock the trade up from a football standpoint. I'd rather go for the home run than a bunch of doubles, and they clearly view AVT as a home run.

[Shockwave]

1 hour ago, Morrissey said:

Where exactly are you pulling these %'s from?

Theres several things to read that may vary a few percentage points depending on your criteria but heres one for you. Theres alot of numbers out there if you search for them. 

Quote

Historic Success Chart

The numbers show us the following outline for finding consistent starters:

1st Round - OL (83%) LB (70%) TE (67%) DB (64%) QB (63%) WR (58%) RB (58%) DL (58%)

2nd Round - OL (70%) LB (55%) TE (50%) WR (49%) DB (46%) QB (27%) DL (26%) RB (25%)

3rd Round - OL (40%) TE (39%) LB (34%) DL (27%) WR (25%) DB (24%) QB (17%) RB (16%)

4th Round - DL (37%) TE (33%) OL (29%) LB (16%) WR(12%) DB (11%) RB (11%) QB (8%)

5th Round - TE (32%) DB (17%) WR (16%) OL (16%) DL (13%) RB (9%) LB (4%) QB (0%)

6th Round - TE (26%) OL (16%) DL (13%) WR (9%) DB (8%) RB (6%) LB (5%) QB (0%)

7th Round - DB (11%) OL (9%) QB (6%) WR (5%) DL (3%) LB (2%) RB (0%) TE (0%)

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2015/2/20/8072877/what-the-statistics-tell-us-about-the-draft-by-round

 

[Dcat]

14 minutes ago, fullblast said:

So let's say they stood pat and picked at their original spots.

23 - Jenkins
34 - Moore
66 - Carter
86 - Green
107 - Jabril Cox? (Going by their day 3 defensive strategy this might have been the pick)

That's... better? I guess? From a quantity standpoint this looks better on paper, but the reality of it is the Jets viewed AVT as a significantly better prospect than either Jenkins or Green. They had him at their 7th overall rated player in the draft. It's also questionable whether they had a higher grade on a guy like Kendrick Green or Wyatt Davis than they do on Cam Clark, who they expect to compete for the other G spot this summer. That likely also factored into their decision.

I really can't knock the trade up from a football standpoint. I'd rather go for the home run than a bunch of doubles, and they clearly view AVT as a home run.

A lot of people just refuse to accept the bolded part.  It pretty much renders the "value" dissenters irrelevant.  If AVT is rated #7 on JD's board and he moves to 14 to get him and it happens to be a position of dire need, then of course you do it.  

Is the issue is people not being happy with JD's valuation of this player? 

So tired already of the one note song that he could have taken a pair of guards in rd 3 later!  This is what upsets people?  Um... so I guess it's cool to totally ignore/disregard/disrespect JD's evaluation of this player?  Look, if JD had AVT rated stratospherically higher than the other OL that coould have been had at 23 and in the third,  do you still think he should have waited for them and passed on his vision that Becton and AVT anchor this line and command the protection of Wilson for a football generation, much like Brick and Mangold were to do for Pennington.  Thumbs up for JD from me.

Let's just hope Zach Wilson is more durable than Chad Pennigton and that Becton/AVT build a left side shield to keep it that way.

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, Dcat said:

A lot of people just refuse to accept the bolded part.  It pretty much renders the "value" dissenters irrelevant.  If AVT is rated #7 on JD's board and he moves to 14 to get him and it happens to be a position of dire need, then of course you do it.  

Is the issue is people not being happy with JD's valuation of this player?  So what that he could have taken a pair of guards in rd 3 later? This is what upsets people?  Um... if JD had AVT rated stratospherically higher than those guys do you still think he should have waited for them and passed on his visionthat Becton and AVT anchor this line and command the protection of Wilson for a football generation, much like Brick and Mangold were to do for Pennington.  Let's just hope Zach Wilson is more durable than Chad Pennigton and that Becton/AVT build a left side shield.

i think what a lot of folks here can't get happy about is the pure value of trading up this much for 'just a guard' even though we all want to see vast improvement on the OL.  

[Rhg1084]

Joe Thuney just signed an $80m contract and he’s average. AVT is projected to be pro bowl caliber. No issues with the trade 

[Morrissey]

11 minutes ago, Rhg1084 said:

Joe Thuney just signed an $80m contract and he’s average. AVT is projected to be pro bowl caliber. No issues with the trade 

compared to other positions... that's not a lot

[Sammybighead]

30 minutes ago, fullblast said:

It's hard for me to look at the Jets' first 4 selections and come away upset with anything they did in those rounds. They did give up value with the trade up, but they also selected a player at 107 in Carter who they probably would have taken at 66 (according to JD himself), so they got some value back there as well.

So let's say they stood pat and picked at their original spots.

23 - Jenkins
34 - Moore
66 - Carter
86 - Green
107 - Jabril Cox? (Going by their day 3 defensive strategy this might have been the pick)

That's... better? I guess? From a quantity standpoint this looks better on paper, but the reality of it is the Jets viewed AVT as a significantly better prospect than either Jenkins or Green. They had him as their 7th overall rated player in the draft. It's also questionable whether they had a higher grade on a guy like Kendrick Green or Wyatt Davis than they do on Cam Clark, who they expect to compete for the other G spot this summer. That likely also factored into their decision.

I really can't knock the trade up from a football standpoint. I'd rather go for the home run than a bunch of doubles, and they clearly view AVT as a home run.

Nice post. The quick answer is this: we don't know if it's better. However, if JD felt AVT was a blue-chip prospect who fell and he had a chance to move up and take him, I applaud the move whole heartedly. If this kid does end being a pro-bowler and we passed on the chance to take him to get 2 bums instead, we'd all kill JD for not moving.

I remember a few years back when Laremy Tunsil started to fall I was screaming at the TV for Mac to move and get him. And before you say "well, Tunsil was a premier LT prospect and AVT is just a guard", allow me to correct you. AVT is NOT JUST A GUARD. Go back and look at his tape as a LT. That versatility puts him over the top. When Fant or Becton, god forbid, miss a game or two due to injury and AVT moves over and give you high level play at tackle, you'll be thanking your lucky stars you have a GM with half a brain who valued him highly.

Bottom line: if you told any Jets fan you can get Wilson, AVT and a couple offensive weapons before the draft, every one of us would have asked "where do I sign?"

Therefore, it's absurdly unfair for us to criticize JD for making it happen. Thankfully, most of the criticism appears to be coming from the outside and not Jets fans. That's fine, they're programmed to believe everything the Jets do is wrong. That will not change until the Jets actually do prove them wrong consistently.

[ZachEY]

16 hours ago, RutgersJetFan said:

In any other year viewing trades in a vacuum from a positional standpoint makes sense. 2021 was just a preposterous year for trying to grade all of these guys and I think the positional aspect of things had to get thrown out the window in hindsight. So many unsure things, if it took a couple of third rounders to ensure your first 3 picks were starters then you have to take that regardless of position. 

Another thing that's not being discussed, and perhaps should be, is that the Jets again have two 1s, and two 2s next year.

I don't believe it's much of a stretch to think the Jets could leave next years draft with a top 3 EDGE, top 3 CB, top 3 RT, and a top 3 TE.

For that reason, I think you also have a little more flexibility re: value at this time to go get a player you think is going to be elite in a position of need, even if at a lower value position.

[RutgersJetFan]

7 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Another thing that's not being discussed, and perhaps should be, is that the Jets again have two 1s, and two 2s next year.

I don't believe it's much of a stretch to think the Jets could leave next years draft with a top 3 EDGE, top 3 CB, top 3 RT, and a top 3 TE.

For that reason, I think you also have a little more flexibility re: value at this time to go get a player you think is going to be elite in a position of need, even if at a lower value position.

Maybe, who knows. In any other year to justify not only taking a guard at 14 but also trading up for said guard means the guy has to be an All Pro. I think that holds true regardless of what you have going on and it's an unnecessary move in any other draft simply due to the volume of starting guards that get acquired after the first vs other positions. This one? Not so much. Do what you have to do to take 1. who played and 2. who's good and call it a day. 

[Rhg1084]

35 minutes ago, Morrissey said:

compared to other positions... that's not a lot

It’s a lot for a guard. And I’d rather have AVT and cap space then Thuney and two extra 3rd round picks 

[HawkeyeJet]

21 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Another thing that's not being discussed, and perhaps should be, is that the Jets again have two 1s, and two 2s next year.

I don't believe it's much of a stretch to think the Jets could leave next years draft with a top 3 EDGE, top 3 CB, top 3 RT, and a top 3 TE.

For that reason, I think you also have a little more flexibility re: value at this time to go get a player you think is going to be elite in a position of need, even if at a lower value position.

I think you nailed it here.  I think this is a big part of the equation is overlooked.  I think this year brought two things.  A correction to the mistakes they made with Darnold and a real lack of information about draft prospects as the draft went on.

So I think what happened is that JD made a clear decision that we will do everything we can to insulate Wilson with players we really believe in early, and we are comfortable using draft assets this year to do it.  

Then next year when the draft/scouting process is back to normal, you'll see a more broad view to team building than you did this year. 

[Morrissey]

 

[Tranquilo]

2 minutes ago, Morrissey said:

 

We weren't looking for a RT, let it go lol

[Morrissey]

1 minute ago, Tranquilo said:

We weren't looking for a RT, let it go lol

Ignore me if you don't like what I have to say.

[Tranquilo]

3 minutes ago, Morrissey said:

Ignore me if you don't like what I have to say.

Just saying that he was never an option. It's like getting mad the Jets didn't select Lawrence Taylor.

[Morrissey]

22 minutes ago, Tranquilo said:

Just saying that he was never an option. It's like getting mad the Jets didn't select Lawrence Taylor.

LT was taken #2. Jets picked #3... so how does that make any sense?

Actually don't answer.

[Tranquilo]

26 minutes ago, Morrissey said:

LT was taken #2. Jets picked #3... so how does that make any sense?

Actually don't answer.

Hyperbole. I meant it as taking Lawrence Taylor in this draft. That's how unlikely we were to take Darrishaw. I compared him to a legendary player that wasn't available in the 2021 draft.

[Jet Nut]

Its simple, JD and the Jets staff had Vera-Tucker ranked top 10 in this draft.

If theyre close to being right this deal is better than fine with me

[Lith]

I get some fans being upset with the trade.  We gave up a lot.  But we did it to get a guy we wanted.  This narrative that we could have taken an immediate impact starter on the OL with one of our 3rds is overblown.  Is it possible we could have gotten an immediate solid starter like Cushenberry, Jackson or Lewis last year?  Of course.  Could we have gotten a future stud like Joe Thuney or Orlando Brown?  Sure.  But those guys are the exceptions.  These are the 33 linemen selected in R3 since 2016.  Some solid players, but a lot of jags and busts.  Dan Feeney, Pat Elflein and Chuma Edoga are much more representative of the typical R3 lineman than Thuney or Brown.

Player	Draft Tm	Year	Starts (Career)	GS as rookie	Approx Value (PFR)
Joe Thuney	NE	2016	80	16	46
Mason Cole	Ari	2018	32	16	13
Lloyd Cushenberry	Den	2020	16	16	7
Jonah Jackson	Det	2020	16	16	8
Damian Lewis	Sea	2020	16	16	10
Michael Deiter	Mia	2019	15	15	7	(lost starting job by year 2)
Pat Elflein	Min	2017	49	14	27
Nate Davis	Ten	2019	28	12	17
Brandon Parker	LVR	2018	19	12	6	(lost starting job year 2)
Graham Glasgow	Det	2016	71	11	36
Orlando Brown	Bal	2018	42	10	31
Dan Feeney	LAC	2017	57	9	30
Chuma Edoga	NYJ	2019	12	8	3
Tyre Phillips	Bal	2020	8	8	5
Bobby Evans	LAR	2019	7	7	4
Isaac Seumalo	Phi	2016	40	4	16
Martinas Rankiin	Hou	2018	10	4	3
Chukwuma Okorafor	Pit	2018	19	3	9
Le'Raven Clark	Ind	2016	15	3	3
Trey Pipkins	LAC	2019	8	3	4
Matt Hennessy	Atl	2020	2	2	0
Matt Peart	NYG	2020	1	1	0
Alex Cappa	TB	2018	29	0	18
Shon Coleman	Cle	2016	16	0	6
Joseph Noteboom	LAR	2018	15	0	7
Geron Christian	Was	2018	8	0	3
Connor Mcgovern	Dal	2019	8	0	5
Rees Odhiambo	Sea	2016	7	0	4
Max Tuerk	Sdg	2016	0	0	0
Antonio Garcia	NE	2017	0	0	0
Yodny Cajuste	NE	2019	0	0	0
Josh Jones	Ari	2020	0	0	0
Lucas Niang	KC	2020	0	0	0

[Sammybighead]

1 hour ago, Rhg1084 said:

It’s a lot for a guard. And I’d rather have AVT and cap space then Thuney and two extra 3rd round picks 

He's not just a guard.

Agree on the second point although I'd feel a lot better with Thuney and AVT.