Trade up and pick of AVT being scrutinized (merged)

[#27TheDominator]

1 hour ago, Tranquilo said:

We weren't looking for a RT, let it go lol

Isn't that another potential reason to question the draft? 

[Tranquilo]

Just now, #27TheDominator said:

Isn't that another potential reason to question the draft? 

I think IOL needed more of an upgrade, but you can question that if you want

[Claymation]

3 hours ago, Morrissey said:

I take Teven Jenkins and Quinn Meinerz over just AVT.... all day every day

Why? One is a 2nd round talent and the other is a 3rd round talent.

And for the record, PFF had Andrew Thomas as their highest ranking OL last year. Josh Jones as their 14th ranked prospect who didn't have one start for Arizona last year after being selected in the 3rd round. 

[kdels62]

I do get the value perspective but there’s an evaluation that has to get made that alters everything. In the early days of the Tangini there was a dedication to finding good fits and getting targets, that works. It built the core of those AFC championship teams. However, what JD accomplished was better because he manipulated the board to give him a lot of picks and dart throws in the later rounds. 

If AVT is a top guard he becomes a value sooner rather than later, and more importantly there will be on field production.

[dcJet]

AVT was expensive, he needs to be top 10, re-signable guard for the trade to be worth it.  

[dcJet]

5 hours ago, Morrissey said:

I take Teven Jenkins and Quinn Meinerz over just AVT.... all day every day

No way.  We tried doing multiple side-stage lineman before.  Time for quality not quantity. 

[Morrissey]

If you read this forum before the draft no one would have questioned Teven Jenkins at 23.

Now he's "side-stage lineman" and not a Round 1 talent .. I guess neither is Elijah Moore.

[TokyoJetsFan]

People upset we couldnt even sway Thuney with all the money in the world during the off-season, but trade up for the best guard in the draft.  How else are you supposed to acquire a quality guard lol? These guys just don’t become available during free agency. 

[dcJet]

5 minutes ago, Morrissey said:

If you read this forum before the draft no one would have questioned Teven Jenkins at 23.

Now he's "side-stage lineman" and not a Round 1 talent .. I guess neither is Elijah Moore.

We'll know soon.  AVT vs Jenkins.  

[Jets Voice of Reason]

1 hour ago, Morrissey said:

If you read this forum before the draft no one would have questioned Teven Jenkins at 23.

Now he's "side-stage lineman" and not a Round 1 talent .. I guess neither is Elijah Moore.

Teven Jenkins 100% dropped because of medical/his interviews. On the field he's a 1st round grade in my opinion. Surprised that we passed on him twice.

[Augustiniak]

7 minutes ago, Jets Voice of Reason said:

Teven Jenkins 100% dropped because of medical/his interviews. On the field he's a 1st round grade in my opinion. Surprised that we passed on him twice.

Jets clearly wanted a guard not a tackle.

[Augustiniak]

1 hour ago, TokyoJetsFan said:

People upset we couldnt even sway Thuney with all the money in the world during the off-season, but trade up for the best guard in the draft.  How else are you supposed to acquire a quality guard lol? These guys just don’t become available during free agency. 

Jets were supposed to luck into an all star guard in the later rounds.

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, Morrissey said:

If you read this forum before the draft no one would have questioned Teven Jenkins at 23.

Now he's "side-stage lineman" and not a Round 1 talent .. I guess neither is Elijah Moore.

No, there seemed to be a lot who didnt want him at 23.

The rest of the NFL agreed with those people

[Jet Nut]

9 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

Jets clearly wanted a guard not a tackle.

A 1st round top guard, top 10 player in their view over a 2nd round tackle 

[Barton]

Anyone else see a guy who is probably a damn solid pass blocker but not a mauler in the running game? 

I'm glad we picked him but I didnt see him mauling people on highlights in the running game, FWIW.

[#27TheDominator]

13 minutes ago, Barton said:

Anyone else see a guy who is probably a damn solid pass blocker but not a mauler in the running game? 

I'm glad we picked him but I didnt see him mauling people on highlights in the running game, FWIW.

If you read the draft profiles, I don't think anybody says he is a mauler.  He is supposed to be a guy that can move and wall guys off.  The description sounds dead on like the kind of guy you want for ZBS.

[Shockwave]

Re: Tevin Jenkins

Just incase people forgot: We passed on him twice. 

We have Jamison Crowder who is one of the better slot guys in the league and we were literally trying to trade up for a slot in Elijah Moore. So it's not like we cared about investing extra resources in a player we liked. 

Several rumors Tevin Jenkins has some medical red flag situation. Also keep in mind he didn't become that mauler until this year as a 23 year old and many think is just a RT. Had injury issues at the end of last year. 

AVT is two years younger than him and if his arms were like 1 inch longer he likely would have been drafted as a LT. I mean even with the 32's if Slater was gone he was who everyone thought the Chargers would take pick 13 to play LT. But hes been a stud since 20 and fully healthy/not missing games. 

These two guys are completely different animals. I don't really think they are in the same conversation. 

[Sammybighead]

5 hours ago, Morrissey said:

If you read this forum before the draft no one would have questioned Teven Jenkins at 23.

Now he's "side-stage lineman" and not a Round 1 talent .. I guess neither is Elijah Moore.

If you read this forum before the draft, everyone also preferred AVT over all other options.

[slats]

17 hours ago, Sammybighead said:

He's not just a guard.

Agree on the second point although I'd feel a lot better with Thuney and AVT.

Was never going to happen (unless he dropped to #23, which also wasn't going to happen). Jets only have AVT because they missed out on Thuney. 

16 hours ago, dcJet said:

AVT was expensive, he needs to be top 10, re-signable guard for the trade to be worth it.  

In the dream world where JD, Saleh, Wilson and Becton are all here having success five years from now, it's hard to imagine them resigning AVT. AVT is an expensive OL tourniquet. He was brought in to solidify the OL to help with the QB's development. Now Joe Douglas needs to start drafting the athletic OL that drop every year that fit the profile they're looking for their zone scheme, bring them in, coach them up, and groom them to move into the starting lineup. That's how good teams do it. 

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, slats said:

Was never going to happen (unless he dropped to #23, which also wasn't going to happen). Jets only have AVT because they missed out on Thuney. 

In the dream world where JD, Saleh, Wilson and Becton are all here having success five years from now, it's hard to imagine them resigning AVT. AVT is an expensive OL tourniquet. He was brought in to solidify the OL to help with the QB's development. Now Joe Douglas needs to start drafting the athletic OL that drop every year that fit the profile they're looking for their zone scheme, bring them in, coach them up, and groom them to move into the starting lineup. That's how good teams do it. 

Generally agree, but they could get by with extending the two he's drafted so far; it's just likely to take away from elsewhere if he is still paying decent-or-better veteran FA money to any of the remaining 3 OL slots. If he does fill those other 3 with say 2 mid/late round picks and a lower-priced veteran, with time still left on their rookie deals, then he could keep not just Becton but AVT as well. 

Which brings up the other thing that so many - I forget what you named the group, but the OL-ites - conveniently overlook, which is no successful GM I can think of has used a 1st round pick on 3 current OL starters (unless at least one of those 3 picks is like a decade removed from the present season), so he should now be done drafting OL that high. If, certainly by the year(s) it's time to extend Becton/AVT, he can't fill the remaining 3 positions with good starters, by spending a combination of lower-priced FA contracts and mid & lower round draft picks, then it's a poor reflection on him as some type of OL guru.

There's plenty of time yet before extending either one, but he can't only start drafting mid/late round OLmen only when there's a hole following the prior season's end: that's not how a pipeline works. He needs to draft them before they're absolutely needed - and if they're deemed good enough to start as rookies, all the better - so you know what you've got ahead of the next FA period and (doubly) don't misguidedly put too much faith in a lower-percentage pick the coaches haven't yet assessed firsthand in practice/games. 

[jamesr]

20 hours ago, dcJet said:

AVT was expensive, he needs to be top 10, re-signable guard for the trade to be worth it.  

For the trade value perhaps; but if he turns out to be a solid re-signable guard, but not Top 10, it'll still have been a good pick, even if it still gets considered an overpay on the trade up.

 

[Dupe]

The draft was a dream come true. The infatuation with Jenkins is crazy.  You guys with your silly mock drafts think you’re smarter than GMs who scout, interview prospects, family and coaches. AVT is an all around blue chip thats going to help turn an area of dire need into a strength.  Be thrilled that the Jets managed to get him and stop straining your brain cells.  You need them.  

[Jets723]

I was perfectly fine with trading up.  Did it sting to lose those third rounders? Of course BUT the luxury of having a lot of picks is that you can sacrifice a little bit to get your guy.  We still had 10 picks.  Next year we have 11 with 4 of them probably in the top 50

[Sperm Edwards]

If AVT is all that, like the Jets had him graded to be, and is the type of guard that'd command maybe not top 3 but still about top 10 LT money, I'm more than fine with it.

Where we sit today, it sure doesn't seem like Douglas got optimal value, but the Jets have a zillion picks and could afford this luxury instead of guessing at who's almost as good, also almost as good in the Jets blocking scheme, plus whether that player will even still be there when we pick lower down. An awful lot of that criticism is based on what we now know, only with the benefit of hindsight, as to how long the alleged next-best guy(s) lasted. 

However if AVT's just ok, then it was a bad trade up with like 10 more day 1-2 OL prospects still on the board, and it means they just graded him too generously and made a poor decision as a result. 

Hopefully not, and most seem to think he's got it in him to be a special guard, so we'll see. 

[Augustiniak]

Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

If AVT is all that, like the Jets had him graded to be, and is the type of guard that'd command maybe not top 3 but still about top 10 LT money, I'm more than fine with it.

Where we sit today, it sure doesn't seem like Douglas got optimal value, but the Jets have a zillion picks and could afford this luxury instead of guessing at who's almost as good, also almost as good in the Jets blocking scheme, plus whether that player will even still be there when we pick lower down. An awful lot of that criticism is based on what we now know, only with the benefit of hindsight, as to how long the alleged next-best guy(s) lasted. 

However AVT's just ok, then it was a bad trade up with like 10 more day 1-2 OL prospects still on the board, and it means they just graded him too generously and made a poor decision as a result. 

Hopefully not, and most seem to think he's got it in him to be a special guard, so we'll see. 

trade value is one thing, but really what we're ultimately wondering is, how good is douglas as a talent evaluator.  never heard any team complain about trade value by trading up for a guy who turned out to be really good.

[JoJoTownsell1]

2 hours ago, Dupe said:

The draft was a dream come true. The infatuation with Jenkins is crazy.  You guys with your silly mock drafts think you’re smarter than GMs who scout, interview prospects, family and coaches. AVT is an all around blue chip thats going to help turn an area of dire need into a strength.  Be thrilled that the Jets managed to get him and stop straining your brain cells.  You need them.  

15/16 OG/T's were taken after AVT in the first 3 rounds. In all likelihood 1 or 2 of those will be better than AVT because the odds dictate that (no matter how much JD likes AVT I am sure he would rather have 15 highly ranked OL). So you can be sure that in a couple of years there will be clowns who will come in here and cherry-pick the 1 or 2 that are better than AVT and say "See we should have just stayed at 23". 

It's always easy to second guess when you have the option of picking from a pool of 15 players

[Augustiniak]

2 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

15/16 OG/T's were taken after AVT in the first 3 rounds. In all likelihood 1 or 2 of those will be better than AVT because the odds dictate that (no matter how much JD likes AVT I am sure he would rather have 15 highly ranked OL). So you can be sure that in a couple of years there will be clowns who will come in here and cherry-pick the 1 or 2 that are better than AVT and say "See we should have just stayed at 23". 

It's always easy to second guess when you have the option of picking from a pool of 15 players

The point for douglas was not to pick the best one or else.  The point was to pick the one who had the best chance of being at least good.

[Sperm Edwards]

7 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

trade value is one thing, but really what we're ultimately wondering is, how good is douglas as a talent evaluator.  never heard any team complain about trade value by trading up for a guy who turned out to be really good.

We'll find out a lot more about him this year. Pretty much everyone in round 1 (never mind the top half of round 1) is rated as really good on draft day. I want him to be right.

[derp]

The other thing that could have given AVT value for the Jets specifically is the Jets may view AVT as a better than replacement level left tackle.

Becton misses snaps. It’s very feasible that AVT sliding over a spot to LT and a backup guard is better than, say, Edoga at LT or flipping Fant to LT and Edoga at RT.