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Video On Saleh's defensive scheme


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3 minutes ago, choon328 said:

I think it's possible you see 4 of the 6 guys drafted from rds 5-7 become solid contributors this year with possibly 2 starting. That doesn't very often in the NFL.

If this were to happen, the core of the defensive roster would almost be filled. You add one more draft to put the icing on the cake and suddenly you have 6-7 new guys who are on rookie contracts, can start and contribute early. 
 

That’s a huge IF though. 

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1 minute ago, Patriot Killa said:

If this were to happen, the core of the defensive roster would almost be filled. You add one more draft to put the icing on the cake and suddenly you have 6-7 new guys who are on rookie contracts, can start and contribute early. 
 

That’s a huge IF though. 

It is a huge IF, but the Jets plan on taking all of their best assets and utilizing them. If you go through all 6 of their scouting reports you will see that all of what they do well match what they're going to be asked to do in this defense. That is already setting them up for success. It's just a matter of coaching them up and developing them. 

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I’m expecting the D to just be ok this year. There’s going to be a learning curve.

The key is going to be those draft picks in 2022. Unlike this year, next year’s draft is pretty healthy at Corner and Edge. Getting two top flight prospects at those key positions is going to be critical.

We’re one good offseason away.

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11 minutes ago, choon328 said:

It is a huge IF, but the Jets plan on taking all of their best assets and utilizing them. If you go through all 6 of their scouting reports you will see that all of what they do well match what they're going to be asked to do in this defense. That is already setting them up for success. It's just a matter of coaching them up and developing them. 

Scheme fit gets left out of the middle rounds sometimes and I never understand why. You see a lot of BPA in the mid rounds, but does that BPA translate to your scheme? Does the BPA’s game naturally have what your scheme asks for to succeed?

enjoyed the approach JD took. He knew that our roster was thin and a good % of the players we do have in the 2nd and 3rd levels of the defense didn’t fit the new scheme appropriately.

Often, you see GM’s accidentally give their coach a square peg to stick in a round hole when they’re so focused on making a good pick based on college performance and potential, instead of balancing that thought process out with how they may translate to their new NFL team’s scheme.

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2 minutes ago, Butterfield said:

They really need Lawson to be good, and someone to step up on the other side of him. Got to think DE will be a target in next years draft.  

I’m not sure about drafting a DE so soon. I love Franklin Meyers (I don’t think many of you realize just how good he was last season)

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11 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

Scheme fit gets left out of the middle rounds sometimes and I never understand why. You see a lot of BPA in the mid rounds, but does that BPA translate to your scheme? Does the BPA’s game naturally have what your scheme asks for to succeed?

enjoyed the approach JD took. He knew that our roster was thin and a good % of the players we do have in the 2nd and 3rd levels of the defense didn’t fit the new scheme appropriately.

Often, you see GM’s accidentally give their coach a square peg to stick in a round hole when they’re so focused on making a good pick based on college performance and potential, instead of balancing that thought process out with how they may translate to their new NFL team’s scheme.

That's why it's so important for the coaching staff and front office to be on the same page. It's also why teams like the Ravens are always good and always draft well. They know the types of players they're looking for and they target them. 

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2 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

I’m not sure about drafting a DE so soon. I love Franklin Meyers (I don’t think many of you realize just how good he was last season)

You can never have enough pass rushers

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28 minutes ago, choon328 said:

Watching this video you can see why the Jets drafted Jamien Sherwood and Hamsah Nasirildeen. They are perfect fits for this defense with their versatility to play in the box and drop into coverage. The one thing this defense values most in their linebackers is speed, play recognition and tackling ability and they both have all 3. One of them will start as the 3rd Linebacker week 1 with Davis and Moseley.

The other thing you notice after watching this video is how important it is to find CB's who can excel playing with their eyes forward and who can drive to the ball. This is where guys like Pinnock and Echols can really be homerun picks late in the draft. They are really suited for this type of coverage and have the athleticism and tackling ability to become solid players and potential starters. It also gives you a lot of hope for guys like Hall and Austin who are both really suited week for this scheme as well. More so than man to man. 

The more you look at the defensive players they drafted and the scheme(s) they'll be utilizing the more you realize that JD and the Jets had a great day 3. I think it's possible you see 4 of the 6 guys drafted from rds 5-7 become solid contributors this year with possibly 2 starting. That doesn't happen very often in the NFL. 

If you think about teams who get a lot of production from late round picks on the defensive side you think about the Seahawks and 49ers. Most of that is bc "zone only" CB's are undervalued heavily in the nfl. So you can get a long, athletic zone CB late in the draft who can excel in this scheme like a Richard Sherman. 

I'm sensing a little danger here.  I love the idea of a base 4-2-5 defense for "today's NFL", but I'm starting to get the idea that Saleh is a "devotee" of a specific system.  I've had quite enough of that with Gase.  I *hope* Saleh is not another cement-head out to jam square pegs into round holes in search of past glory. 

Rex's defense was formidable due to his ability to assess the moment and adjust for the moment at the moment.  What he called his base defense was not all that important.   There was also tremendous flexibility in all three levels of his defense.

I had reservations about a coach that publicly announces "extreme violence" on his wristband, but now I'm really concerned to see that Saleh  was hell bent on recreating" a particular system. 

That's bad news.  

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7 minutes ago, choon328 said:

You don't hire a defensive HC for him to run a different system. He runs a 4-3 under base defense but utilizes Safety type players as the 3rd LB. Off of that he runs many variations of zone coverages. Rex tried to confuse QBs and offenses with blitzes, Saleh does it with coverages. Same philosophy, different strategy. 

As far as the "square peg in round hole" comment there's a reason they signed Davis, Lawson, Curry and Rankins. All of them are round pegs to fit round holes on the defense. It's the same reason they drafted 6 defensive players all of whom are a fit for the his base system. The Jets are turning over the depth of the roster to fit his system. The only potential starter on defense that I'm not sure fits this system is Moseley bc I'm not sure after 2 years away he's going to be quick enough to play the Bobby Wagner/Fred Warner role. Davis is a much better fit in the middle of this defense in my opinion. 

Also, after the 2018 season Saleh adopted the wide 9 scheme and made his coverage schemes more versatile and less predictable. That following 2019 season they went to the SB. He's already proven he can adapt his defense. 

"play the Bobby Wagner/Fred Warner role."

Play the role ???  That says it all.  And as far as mixing coverage... Rex used as many different types of coverage as he did different types of blitz packages.  

Any way you spin it, I'm not excited to hear of any coach that looks to find new players to fit into old roles.  

Like Parcells would say.  We are not picking up where we left off last year.  Changing one starter changes the entire team. 

I hope this guy does not turn out to be a pseudo tuff-guy cement head that can't adapt

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57 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

I'm sensing a little danger here.  I love the idea of a base 4-2-5 defense for "today's NFL", but I'm starting to get the idea that Saleh is a "devotee" of a specific system.  I've had quite enough of that with Gase.  I *hope* Saleh is not another cement-head out to jam square pegs into round holes in search of past glory. 

Rex's defense was formidable due to his ability to assess the moment and adjust for the moment at the moment.  What he called his base defense was not all that important.   There was also tremendous flexibility in all three levels of his defense.

I had reservations about a coach that publicly announces "extreme violence" on his wristband, but now I'm really concerned to see that Saleh  was hell bent on recreating" a particular system. 

That's bad news.  

As @choon328 said, it's not an issue due to the different types of personnel packages and coverages that are run within the scheme.

Example, in the 4-2-5-, the 2 "strong safeties" (of the 5 DBs)  could be more LB types or more CB/safety types based on down and distance and opposition personnel. The 4 man line can have different mixes of rushers and run stuffers based on down and distance and opposition personnel. Same with the 2 LBs.

Plus no defensive coordinator in the NFL these days plays one type of front/LB pairing/coverage.

 

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4 minutes ago, CTJetsFan said:

As @choon328 said, it's not an issue due to the different types of personnel packages and coverages that are run within the scheme.

Example, in the 4-2-5-, the 2 "strong safeties" (of the 5 DBs)  could be more LB types or more CB/safety types based on down and distance and opposition personnel. The 4 man line can have different mixes of rushers and run stuffers based on down and distance and opposition personnel. Same with the 2 LBs.

Plus no defensive coordinator in the NFL these days plays one type of front/LB pairing/coverage.

 

I understand that fully... 

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1 hour ago, choon328 said:

They will never draft a CB high to play in a zone scheme. It's a terrible allocation of resources for this scheme. The highest drafted CB's for the Seahawks since 2011 was a 3rd pick in 2017, 1 4th and 2 5th rd picks.

I use them as the example bc that is the basis of Saleh’s defensive philosophy. Since 2011 the Seahawks have averaged 8th in Points Allowed and 10th in Yards Allowed. All of that success without drafting a CB higher than the 3rd round. 

I think what you'll see next year is a replacement for Moseley and another pass rusher taken in the either the 1st or 2nd round. This two positions are much more vital and valued to this defense than CB.

You’re probably right. I just would like a top end corner prospect that is a ballhawk like Richard Sherman. I know he was drafted 102. But if there’s a ball hawking zone corner that has a 1st round grade and is available with the Seattle pick, I’m taking him.

It’s early. But that’s what I would. Just like the guard argument, I’m not taking chances on finding a Richard Sherman in the 3rd. If the guy is there in the 1st, I’m taking him and a top edge.

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4 minutes ago, choon328 said:

The "role", meaning a MLB who can run sideline to sideline,  play in open space, read run/pass immediately and either attack his run gap or be quick enough to get back into his zone. I don't think Moseley has many of those characteristics. He's been a downhill tackler his whole career and nothing else. So yes, it's a specific role in the defense with specific characteristics. You act as if Rex didn't immediately bring in Bart Scott and Jim Leonhard to fill "roles" in his defense.  And if you don't like a new HC going out and bringing in players to fit HIS system then you must've loved the past 10 years of sh*t and misery. 

We'll see... 

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14 minutes ago, GreenFish said:

You’re probably right. I just would like a top end corner prospect that is a ballhawk like Richard Sherman. I know he was drafted 102. But if there’s a ball hawking zone corner that has a 1st round grade and is available with the Seattle pick, I’m taking him.

It’s early. But that’s what I would. Just like the guard argument, I’m not taking chances on finding a Richard Sherman in the 3rd. If the guy is there in the 1st, I’m taking him and a top edge.

You can find a ball hawking zone CB in the mid to late round bc they're not valued. There aren't many teams who use zone coverages the vast majority of the time so teams value players who are not a fit for man to man defense a lot less. It's possible the Jets had 2nd or 3rd round grades on the CBs they drafted based on their scheme but they fell bc there is no demand for zone only CB's. Drafting one of the top 4 CB's this year to utilize them in a zone would probably have the same impact as 1 of these later round picks the Jets actually took. 

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2 hours ago, Patriot Killa said:

Scheme fit gets left out of the middle rounds sometimes and I never understand why. You see a lot of BPA in the mid rounds, but does that BPA translate to your scheme? Does the BPA’s game naturally have what your scheme asks for to succeed?

enjoyed the approach JD took. He knew that our roster was thin and a good % of the players we do have in the 2nd and 3rd levels of the defense didn’t fit the new scheme appropriately.

Often, you see GM’s accidentally give their coach a square peg to stick in a round hole when they’re so focused on making a good pick based on college performance and potential, instead of balancing that thought process out with how they may translate to their new NFL team’s scheme.

BPA works well when your team is already set at the key positions.. ala the Chiefs... if you're in the process of building your team, you have to value scheme fit over BPA... if not, you're just building a mess. 

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I think the defense is going to be pretty rough in the first half of the season. I think our defensive line is well equipped to do their role in it, but we're depending a lot on a pretty thin linebacker corps with corners who are relatively new to the NFL in general. But overall Saleh knows what he's doing and has been pretty adaptable and has a reputation as a good teacher so long-term think we'll be fine there.

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3 hours ago, choon328 said:
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Watching this video you can see why the Jets drafted Jamien Sherwood and Hamsah Nasirildeen. They are perfect fits for this defense with their versatility to play in the box and drop into coverage. The one thing this defense values most in their linebackers is speed, play recognition and tackling ability and they both have all 3. One of them will start as the 3rd Linebacker week 1 with Davis and Moseley.

The other thing you notice after watching this video is how important it is to find CB's who can excel playing with their eyes forward and who can drive to the ball. This is where guys like Pinnock and Echols can really be homerun picks late in the draft. They are really suited for this type of coverage and have the athleticism and tackling ability to become solid players and potential starters. It also gives you a lot of hope for guys like Hall and Austin who are both really suited week for this scheme as well. More so than man to man. 

The more you look at the defensive players they drafted and the scheme(s) they'll be utilizing the more you realize that JD and the Jets had a great day 3. I think it's possible you see 4 of the 6 guys drafted from rds 5-7 become solid contributors this year with possibly 2 starting. That doesn't happen very often in the NFL. 

If you think about teams who get a lot of production from late round picks on the defensive side you think about the Seahawks and 49ers. Most of that is bc "zone only" CB's are undervalued heavily in the nfl. So you can get a long, athletic zone CB late in the draft who can excel in this scheme like a Richard Sherman. 

It was mostly rounds 4-6 that Seattle built their Legion Of Boom.   Jets have drafted their DB-LBs in those same rounds.  Smart versatile and athletic.  

The collaboration between JD-FO with Saleh-CS has lead to a FA-draft plan.  IMO it has been carried out pretty much as they planned.  Almost seamlessly.  This is certainly uncanny to see this unfold in JetsLand.  Not since the days of Parcells.

Jets are getting close.  May be just a young Edge guy and another OL addition.  Plus a playmaking TE...from getting to a level of being a consistent playoff team.  And all of that...plus other additions and touches...can be accomplished with the 2022 FA-draft process.  Plenty of CAP space and 11 more picks to successfully accomplish their goals and complete the plan.   

None of what's happened this offseason smells like SOJ.  Smells more like napalm in the morning...Victory!

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3 hours ago, THE BARON said:

"play the Bobby Wagner/Fred Warner role."

Play the role ???  That says it all.  And as far as mixing coverage... Rex used as many different types of coverage as he did different types of blitz packages.  

Any way you spin it, I'm not excited to hear of any coach that looks to find new players to fit into old roles.  

Like Parcells would say.  We are not picking up where we left off last year.  Changing one starter changes the entire team. 

I hope this guy does not turn out to be a pseudo tuff-guy cement head that can't adapt

Parcells was flexible and pragmatic on offense but drafted his famous ("don't compromise your") "prototypes" to fit his and BB's 3-4. I believe it worked out for him.

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3 hours ago, choon328 said:

You can find a ball hawking zone CB in the mid to late round bc they're not valued. There aren't many teams who use zone coverages the vast majority of the time so teams value players who are not a fit for man to man defense a lot less. It's possible the Jets had 2nd or 3rd round grades on the CBs they drafted based on their scheme but they fell bc there is no demand for zone only CB's. Drafting one of the top 4 CB's this year to utilize them in a zone would probably have the same impact as 1 of these later round picks the Jets actually took. 

IIRC, Pinnock has a nose for the ball.

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8 minutes ago, Alworth said:

Parcells was flexible and pragmatic on offense but drafted his famous ("don't compromise your") "prototypes" to fit his and BB's 3-4. I believe it worked out for him.

Yes and no.

John Abraham struggled because the Parcells/Groh defense wanted him as a standup OLB (a la LT) with coverage responsibilities. It wasn't until Herm came along and let him put his hand in the dirt as a DE and not drop into coverage as much did he flourish.

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5 hours ago, THE BARON said:

I'm sensing a little danger here.  I love the idea of a base 4-2-5 defense for "today's NFL", but I'm starting to get the idea that Saleh is a "devotee" of a specific system.  I've had quite enough of that with Gase.  I *hope* Saleh is not another cement-head out to jam square pegs into round holes in search of past glory. 

Rex's defense was formidable due to his ability to assess the moment and adjust for the moment at the moment.  What he called his base defense was not all that important.   There was also tremendous flexibility in all three levels of his defense.

I had reservations about a coach that publicly announces "extreme violence" on his wristband, but now I'm really concerned to see that Saleh  was hell bent on recreating" a particular system. 

That's bad news.  

And Parcells was a 3-4 guy, along with Belichick.  Dungy took his Tampa2  with him to Indy.  

Are you worried that the Jets will run the Shanahan WCO in NY too? 

They all add nuances to fit their roster

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20 minutes ago, CTJetsFan said:

Yes and no.

John Abraham struggled because the Parcells/Groh defense wanted him as a standup OLB (a la LT) with coverage responsibilities. It wasn't until Herm came along and let him put his hand in the dirt as a DE and not drop into coverage as much did he flourish.

John Abraham never played under Parcells, played all of 6 games under Groh before going out for the season in 2000.  In those 6 games he had 4.5 sacks and looked like he was the real deal.

 

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22 minutes ago, CTJetsFan said:

Yes and no.

John Abraham struggled because the Parcells/Groh defense wanted him as a standup OLB (a la LT) with coverage responsibilities. It wasn't until Herm came along and let him put his hand in the dirt as a DE and not drop into coverage as much did he flourish.

And I'll cop to Farrior too (and Hugh Douglas for that matter) as casualties of a 3-4 approach. But big picture, "system" coaches do fine--as did BP and BB-- if the overall football IQ is there. LeBeau (3-4 with suprises) Buddy Ryan (the 46 with surprises) and many others. 

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42 minutes ago, Alworth said:

Parcells was flexible and pragmatic on offense but drafted his famous ("don't compromise your") "prototypes" to fit his and BB's 3-4. I believe it worked out for him.

You mean like the 1998 Jets defense ??? A 43 defense ??? Parcells ran a 43 with the Jets that year because he didn't have the NT or LB's to run the 34.  LB's were Mo Lewis, Pepper Johnson and Bryan Cox.  That makes three... Not four. 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

John Abraham never played under Parcells, played all of 6 games under Groh before going out for the season in 2000.  In those 6 games he had 4.5 sacks and looked like he was the real deal.

 

I didn't say he played for Parcells. Groh ran the same system as Parcells.

You're right about Abe only playing 6 games in 2000 and his sack #s being decent given the # of games played. I missed that. Only had 15 total tackles in those 6 games.

However, I do recall discussions on another board back then where we were wondering why they were asking him to drop in coverage when he had never done that at SC and was clearly better rushing the passer.

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6 minutes ago, Alworth said:

And I'll cop to Farrior too (and Hugh Douglas for that matter) as casualties of a 3-4 approach. But big picture, "system" coaches do fine--as did BP and BB-- if the overall football IQ is there. LeBeau (3-4 with suprises) Buddy Ryan (the 46 with surprises) and many others. 

You're right about Farrior and Douglas.

I agree with your premise that system coaches do fine......as long as they are given the right personnel. Was just pointing out that on occasion the great ones get it wrong too.

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27 minutes ago, CTJetsFan said:

I didn't say he played for Parcells. Groh ran the same system as Parcells.

You're right about Abe only playing 6 games in 2000 and his sack #s being decent given the # of games played. I missed that. Only had 15 total tackles in those 6 games.

However, I do recall discussions on another board back then where we were wondering why they were asking him to drop in coverage when he had never done that at SC and was clearly better rushing the passer.

I thought you said under Parcells/Groh, if not, my bad

I also remember Abraham wasnt an every down player, was used mostly in pass rush situations.  I thought he was just being brought around slowly

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