Trey Lance- one season of play in 4 years! Completed 6 passes in biggest win.

[Warfish]

5 hours ago, jgb said:

Media has an anti-suck bias, not an anti-Jets bias.

 

[ToonforPrez]

The only person i have heard not agree with the Zach Pick was Skip Bayless and the only reason was well you know he didn't play top competition which is a silly narrative but other then that i think the National Media as a whole has been Quite Favorable of the Zach pick and the future of this team.

[Beerfish]

I'd watch college ball last year and of course bama is on every week and I am watching the best players on that team, Devonta, Waddle, Harris, Mechie.

And then after watching many games you see Mac Jones putting the ball on place and on time all the time.  You see him moving around just enough in the pocket not to be a statue.  You see him beating down other top teams with top QBs.

Mac Jones is being SERIOUSLY underrated in this thread.

[Defense Wins Championships]

3 hours ago, Beerfish said:

I'd watch college ball last year and of course bama is on every week and I am watching the best players on that team, Devonta, Waddle, Harris, Mechie.

And then after watching many games you see Mac Jones putting the ball on place and on time all the time.  You see him moving around just enough in the pocket not to be a statue.  You see him beating down other top teams with top QBs.

Mac Jones is being SERIOUSLY underrated in this thread.

Exactly. 

I loved Jones throughout all of 2020 and always believed he could become the 2nd best QB outside of only Lawrence (although I'm loving the Zach Wilson addition). 

One thing that pisses me off is football fans BLAMING Jones for having awesome WRs and an A+ RB. 

Isn't that the goal? For a QB to flourish around talent? 

We blamed Jets FO for Sam stinking because of a lack of talent around Sam?

But then we blame Jones for having talent around him and playing awesome?

Weird. 

And guess what? The QB stirs the drink, right?

Well guess what? After losing an awesome WR in Jaylen Waddle, Jones didn't miss a beat; he flourished without Waddle. 

I want an Offensive attack with talented players around my QB. And I want my QB to look awesome within it. 

N.E got themselves an awesome QB prospect. Let's just hope they don't surround this kid with A+ weapons because if so; Jones will utilize them. 

Joe Burrow had even better weapons at LSU and I don't remember any Football geniuses blaming Burrow for... Justin Jefferson, Ja'Marr Chase, Terrace Marshall Jr and ClydeEdwards-Helaire (RB). 

Etc. 

It's weird to me. 

[jgb]

8 hours ago, ToonforPrez said:

The only person i have heard not agree with the Zach Pick was Skip Bayless and the only reason was well you know he didn't play top competition which is a silly narrative but other then that i think the National Media as a whole has been Quite Favorable of the Zach pick and the future of this team.

You may not agree with it but how is it a silly narrative to be skeptical based on low level of competition?

[Defense Wins Championships]

32 minutes ago, jgb said:

You may not agree with it but how is it a silly narrative to be skeptical based on low level of competition?

Legit concern to have (I've had them over the years myself). 

But on the flip side.

Instead of being surrounded by BYU talent...

How awesome would Zach Wilson have looked surrounded by Alabama players and/or kids from Clemson etc? 

However...

STEVE MCNAIR, ALCORN STATE.

KURT WARNER, NORTHERN IOWA.

RICH GANNON, DELAWARE.

KEN O’BRIEN, UC DAVIS.

PHIL SIMMS, MOREHEAD STATE.

DOUG WILLIAMS, GRAMBLING.

JOSH ALLEN, WYOMING. 

CARSON WENTZ, NORTH DAKOTA STATE.

JIMMY GAROPPOLO, EASTERN ILLINOIS.

JOE FLACCO, DELAWARE.

TONY ROMO, EASTERN ILLINOIS.

If we only went by powerhouse conferences none of these guys would've ever been drafted. 

As an FSU fan I can't remember the last time the Seminoles or even Gators/Miami/Alabama etc produced an absolutely awesome NFL QB. 

Maybe it's not the school for awesome QBs. Or the teammates surrounding them. Or the conferences they play within where 90% of defensive opponents don't make the NFL to behind with etc. 

And rather all about the kids physical ability, throwing arm, accuracy, leadership qualities, Xs and Os and smarts etc that REALLY makes an awesome QB (coming out of college). 

I bet a lot of HOF QBs played College ball for historically non powerhouse program's. 

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, Defense Wins Championships said:

Legit concern to have (I've had them over the years myself). 

But on the flip side.

Instead of being surrounded by BYU talent...

How awesome would Zach Wilson have looked surrounded by Alabama players and/or kids from Clemson etc? 

However...

STEVE MCNAIR, ALCORN STATE.

KURT WARNER, NORTHERN IOWA.

RICH GANNON, DELAWARE.

KEN O’BRIEN, UC DAVIS.

PHIL SIMMS, MOREHEAD STATE.

DOUG WILLIAMS, GRAMBLING.

JOSH ALLEN, WYOMING. 

CARSON WENTZ, NORTH DAKOTA STATE.

JIMMY GAROPPOLO, EASTERN ILLINOIS.

JOE FLACCO, DELAWARE.

TONY ROMO, EASTERN ILLINOIS.

If we only went by powerhouse conferences none of these guys would've ever been drafted. 

As an FSU fan I can't remember the last time the Seminoles or even Gators/Miami/Alabama etc produced an absolutely awesome NFL QB. 

Maybe it's not the school for awesome QBs. Or the teammates surrounding them. Or the conferences they play within where 90% of defensive opponents don't make the NFL to behind with etc. 

And rather all about the kids physical ability, throwing arm, accuracy, leadership qualities, Xs and Os and smarts etc that REALLY makes an awesome QB (coming out of college). 

I bet a lot of HOF QBs played College ball for historically non powerhouse program's. 

Yeah not saying there aren’t strong arguments just that it’s not silly for someone to raise a concern 

[Defense Wins Championships]

However with Lance? His experience is as low as I've ever witnessed with a QB. 

Not just lack of NCAA experience but also serverely lacked even H.S experience. 

I don't like this pick at all and if we traded away 3 1st round picks and walked away with Lance? I'd want to quit being a fan. 

[jgb]

7 hours ago, Defense Wins Championships said:

However with Lance? His experience is as low as I've ever witnessed with a QB. 

Not just lack of NCAA experience but also serverely lacked even H.S experience. 

I don't like this pick at all and if we traded away 3 1st round picks and walked away with Lance? I'd want to quit being a fan. 

You really wouldn’t. Jets fans have an amazing ability to doublethink their way into thinking bad is good (ex: Darnold) and good is bad (ex: Adams).

 

[rangerous]

admittedly the lack of experience is a red flag but then again wilson had one really good season.  i think lance probably fits into whatever type of offensive scheme the niners want to run.  i think they want a really mobile qb with an accurate arm.  all coaches want these attributes and he fits these better than mac jones or any of the other qbs except for wilson and lawrence.  we'll see what happens.  the thing too with the niners is they can afford to sit the guy since they still have garapollo.

[J_Smith]

On 5/16/2021 at 7:50 PM, slats said:

I never believed it was Mac Jones. Mac is basically a rookie Jimmy Garoppolo, you hope. It just doesn't make sense to trade from #12 to #3 for the same guy you've already got. Garoppolo is decent, and you don't trade up to exchange decent for decent. I always figured it was either Fields or Lance. These are two dynamic athletes that have the potential to give you far more than Jones or Garoppolo could. 

 

I actually thought it would be Mac for that exact reason. If he is as good as Jimmy G, there’s tremendous value in getting the same player for a fraction of the cost. Allows them to pay their young studs who will need extensions soon (Bosa, Warner, McGlinchy, etc)

[#27TheDominator]

10 hours ago, Defense Wins Championships said:

However with Lance? His experience is as low as I've ever witnessed with a QB. 

Not just lack of NCAA experience but also serverely lacked even H.S experience. 

I don't like this pick at all and if we traded away 3 1st round picks and walked away with Lance? I'd want to quit being a fan. 

You can sell yourself on Wilson and Mac Jones, but not Lance?  I get that the kid is not a clam dunk, but you're going to quit being a fan?  Knock yourself out, but just as there are reasons to think he'll suck, there are reasons to think he will be the best of the bunch.  

[ToonforPrez]

11 hours ago, jgb said:

You may not agree with it but how is it a silly narrative to be skeptical based on low level of competition?

I feel Zach had to play the schedule that HE did not make or had any control over. Skip's narrative since and before he was drafted is silly as the talent and skillset is what you look at not the competition. Why is the Media drooling over Trey Lance when he has played in 6 college games in his career? His competition was far worse then Zach's but Skip & Shannon want to kiss the kid's ass because he went to the Niners.

[jgb]

1 hour ago, ToonforPrez said:

I feel Zach had to play the schedule that HE did not make or had any control over. Skip's narrative since and before he was drafted is silly as the talent and skillset is what you look at not the competition. Why is the Media drooling over Trey Lance when he has played in 6 college games in his career? His competition was far worse then Zach's but Skip & Shannon want to kiss the kid's ass because he went to the Niners.

Well, we aren't evaluating Wilson as a schedule-maker but who he played is still relevant to evaluating him as a player. I view it this way -- any data point that helps to increase the confidence level of the prediction/narrow the margin of error for expected outcomes, is relevant. There are lots of factors that can do this. Quality of competition is only one of them. I see your point that perhaps Skip is overweighting this one factor to the detriment of others.

You are also correct that Lance has bigger red flags. This is why I do not have any opinion on him at all. Just not enough data about him for me. He could be Peyton Manning. He could be Ryan Leaf. I literally have no idea or feeling one way or the other. I can't comment on the different media treatment of Wilson/Lance because I'm not in the US so I don't watch any sports shows and I only read Jets articles. But it is true that I do not believe in the anti-Jets media bias narrative. I think the media has an anti-suck bias and the Jets have made themselves easy targets. And maybe I'm reading the wrong articles now and also when Darnold was drafted but nearly all the coverage I'm seeing is/was bullish on both moves.

FYI I rated the top QBs coming out Lawrence, Jones/Fields (extremely close) then Wilson. Feel free to bump if I am wrong. I have been before and I hope I am again. I had Baker-Darnold-Allen in 2018, with Rosen as "undraftable," and was infinitely relieved when Giants passed on Darnold. I will go to my grave believing that Allen was off Macc's board due to a superficial similarity to Hack -- perhaps that same bias caused me to rate him too low. I, like everyone (except Larry David, apparently), missed on Jackson. Some people called Allen, I did not. Predicting something is not the same as rooting for it.

[ToonforPrez]

30 minutes ago, jgb said:

Well, we aren't evaluating Wilson as a schedule-maker but who he played is still relevant to evaluating him as a player. I view it this way -- any data point that helps to increase the confidence level of the prediction/narrow the margin of error for expected outcomes, is relevant. There are lots of factors that can do this. Quality of competition is only one of them. I see your point that perhaps Skip is overweighting this one factor to the detriment of others.

You are also correct that Lance has bigger red flags. This is why I do not have any opinion on him at all. Just not enough data about him for me. He could be Peyton Manning. He could be Ryan Leaf. I literally have no idea or feeling one way or the other. I can't comment on the different media treatment of Wilson/Lance because I'm not in the US so I don't watch any sports shows and I only read Jets articles. But it is true that I do not believe in the anti-Jets media bias narrative. I think the media has an anti-suck bias and the Jets have made themselves easy targets. And maybe I'm reading the wrong articles now and also when Darnold was drafted but nearly all the coverage I'm seeing is/was bullish on both moves.

FYI I rated the top QBs coming out Lawrence, Jones/Fields (extremely close) then Wilson. Feel free to bump if I am wrong. I have been before and I hope I am again. I had Baker-Darnold-Allen in 2018, with Rosen as "undraftable." I, like everyone, missed on Jackson. Some people called Allen, I did not. Predicting something is not the same as rooting for it.

I do agree with you on the Anti-jets Media as it has turned for the better it seems since Saleh has come in. Wilson does concern me to some degree but i think on a talent level he is neck and neck with Fields with Lance and Jones rounding out the bottom QB's. I always believe everyone should have an opinion and of course respect your's my friend . I do think we can all agree though as Jet Fans we are praying for a miracle that this kid is the one or at least a Pennington or Vinny replica we would even take haha.   

[jgb]

18 minutes ago, ToonforPrez said:

I do agree with you on the Anti-jets Media as it has turned for the better it seems since Saleh has come in. Wilson does concern me to some degree but i think on a talent level he is neck and neck with Fields with Lance and Jones rounding out the bottom QB's. I always believe everyone should have an opinion and of course respect your's my friend . I do think we can all agree though as Jet Fans we are praying for a miracle that this kid is the one or at least a Pennington or Vinny replica we would even take haha.   

Nothing would make me happier than for Wilson to be The One.

Jones is probably the least physically-talented QB drafted in the first round in a long time. But -- as we all know -- being a good QB in the NFL is about so much more than that. Older I get and the more football I watch, I believe that physical talent for a QB is more pass/fail than anything. You need to be at a baseline talent level to make it work. But if you have it upstairs, increased physical talent has a diminishing return. Unless you are an absolute freak like Lamar Jackson/Michael Vick that can cover up gaps in their game by sheer physical superiority.

[JetBlue]

On 5/16/2021 at 1:44 PM, Zach Made Me a Jets Fan said:

The national media narrative is pretty consistent. The only balance view I hear is from Daniel Graham and Bucky of NFL Network. Max K is a Wilson fan, but admits he’s only watched highlights. Mina, Mel K, Cowherd, Stephen A, etc are all spewing the same ignorant narrative. And 80% of fans hear their voices. Not that any of this matters one bit. There is just a clear hypocrisy between the Wilson and Lance narratives, where only one of them is primarily dinged for the lack of competition. 

I totally agree but I do think there is something we shouldn't over look and that is the fact that Lance looks the part. 6'4 230 pounds.  Physically he looks like the second coming of Colin Kaepernick.   The fact that he has played so few games and for against such weak competition is dismissed by so many so-called experts.  Personally I would not have minded taking Lance if we had traded back a few spots but it would have been with the understanding that he was not ready to play right away and maybe not for the season.    As it turns out, the 49ers seemed to have done all the maneuvering for nothing as they may have been able to get him at 10.  Even if he was off the board, they still could have taken Fields. 

[jgb]

58 minutes ago, JetBlue said:

I totally agree but I do think there is something we shouldn't over look and that is the fact that Lance looks the part. 6'4 230 pounds.  Physically he looks like the second coming of Colin Kaepernick.   The fact that he has played so few games and for against such weak competition is dismissed by so many so-called experts.  Personally I would not have minded taking Lance if we had traded back a few spots but it would have been with the understanding that he was not ready to play right away and maybe not for the season.    As it turns out, the 49ers seemed to have done all the maneuvering for nothing as they may have been able to get him at 10.  Even if he was off the board, they still could have taken Fields. 

49ers may be right or they may be wrong about Lance. But if they convinced themselves that he was The Guy, you don't get cute in those situations. You go get him.

[JetBlue]

4 hours ago, jgb said:

49ers may be right or they may be wrong about Lance. But if they convinced themselves that he was The Guy, you don't get cute in those situations. You go get him.

Fair enough but I think they overplayed their hand a bit.  It is hard to believe they did all that to move up to get Lance.  I could be wrong and at this point it really  I guess it is what it is. 

[jgb]

1 minute ago, JetBlue said:

Fair enough but I think they overplayed their hand a bit.  It is hard to believe they did all that to move up to get Lance.  I could be wrong and at this point it really  I guess it is what it is. 

Makes ya wonder if they assumed Jets were going Fields when they made the deal and were targeting Wilson

[JohnnyLV]

47 minutes ago, JetBlue said:

Fair enough but I think they overplayed their hand a bit.  It is hard to believe they did all that to move up to get Lance.  I could be wrong and at this point it really  I guess it is what it is. 

Steve Young said outright that SF traded up for Wilson, convinced that JD would go the "safe" route and take Fields.  It was still early enough in the process that it was before Fields just dropped, but I wonder if they regretted their decision after seeing JD and Saleh react after the workout. Scheffter said Shanahan wanted Jones, the scouting staff and rest of FO wanted Fields 

[JetBlue]

2 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

Steve Young said outright that SF traded up for Wilson, convinced that JD would go the "safe" route and take Fields.  It was still early enough in the process that it was before Fields just dropped, but I wonder if they regretted their decision after seeing JD and Saleh react after the workout. Scheffter said Shanahan wanted Jones, the scouting staff and rest of FO wanted Fields 

Yet the passed on both for a player who probably would have been around at 7 or 8....  

[JetBlue]

52 minutes ago, jgb said:

Makes ya wonder if they assumed Jets were going Fields when they made the deal and were targeting Wilson

That really is the only thing that makes sense, but you have thought they would consult the Jets first before making such a move.  

[JohnnyLV]

16 minutes ago, JetBlue said:

That really is the only thing that makes sense, but you have thought they would consult the Jets first before making such a move.  

When the trade happened right after Wilson was measured and SF traded to 3 I was sure that SF just had it confirmed that the Jets were taking Wilson, but it looks like it might be the opposite and that they didn't even talk to the Jets and hint about Wilson thinking left alone the Jets will take Fields. JD played it well the only QB we were interested in (and rightly so IMO, I have been screaming for Zach since December) was Zach. Young really made it clear that they were pretty shocked the Jets had decided on Zach.

[jgb]

13 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

Yeah losing Darnold is gonna hurt real bad in a few years if Wilson doesn’t outperform him.

I’ll risk missing out on the once-a-generation Rich Gannon (who wasn’t good until year 14 of his career — long ass wait) in order to avoid dozens and dozens of Deshonne Kizers, Josh Rosens, Geno Smiths, Dwayne Haskinses, and Johnny Manziels who suck early, middle, and later.

[Lupz27]

23 minutes ago, jgb said:

I’ll risk missing out on the once-a-generation Rich Gannon (who wasn’t good until year 14 of his career — long ass wait) in order to avoid dozens and dozens of Deshonne Kizers, Josh Rosens, Geno Smiths, Dwayne Haskinses, and Johnny Manziels who suck early, middle, and later.

Yeah because 23 is the new 34.

[jgb]

9 hours ago, Lupz27 said:

Yeah because 23 is the new 34.

Huh? For every Gannon who rises from the ashes of early career disaster there are like 200 guys who just suck. I like those odds.

And by the way, all these snappy "arguments" giving me homework assignments to "go count the wins without Darnold, I'll wait" -- no, you can't burden-shift like that. You're the one arguing for the position that has a <5% likelihood. That's on you to convince others. "But he's a good kid in a lousy situation," is not an argument. It's a self-soothing credo for Jets fans who were wrong on the Internet.

By the way, I was wrong too about Darnold. I was ecstatic that Giants passed on him largely because I was 100% certain Macc would've taken Rosen. The difference is, once the evidence began to mount, I admitted I was wrong and faced reality. The sad truth is that had Giants taken Darnold and us Rosen, we'd be having the exact same debate now about Rosen as we are about Sam. To the letter. The only difference being that instead of "the kid is only 23" we'd have "the kid just turned 24."

 

[Lupz27]

6 minutes ago, jgb said:

Huh? For every Gannon who rises from the ashes of early career disaster there are like 200 guys who just suck.

I like those odds. I like those odds. The difference is that only those who defend Darnold get very angry when people point this out. Whereas I just shake my head at those who continue to hope against hope that Darnold is the exception rather than the rule.

And by the way about all these snappy "arguments" giving me homework assignments to "go count the wins without Darnold, I'll wait" -- no, you can't burden-shift like that. You're arguing for the outcome with a <5% outcome. That's on you to convince others. "But he's a good kid in a lousy situation," is not an argument. It's a self-soothing credo for Jets fans who were wrong on the Internet.

 

Lol your argument is based on a you saying Darnold will suck for 10 more years to only get a chance again in his 30’s?  Bravo for that fiction, not interested though myself.

[jgb]

2 hours ago, Lupz27 said:

Lol your argument is based on a you saying Darnold will suck for 10 more years to only get a chance again in his 30’s?  Bravo for that fiction, not interested though myself.

No, my "argument" is not an argument at all. It's a statement of fact. Given Darnold's bottom-3 QB performance over the first three years of his career, his becoming a Franchise Quarterback would be nearly unprecedented and make him an outlier for which the only suitable comparator is Rich Gannon, who emerged as a legit player in year 14.

It is much more likely that Darnold remains a member of the club of hundreds of first-round QB busts than he ever gets invited to join as the 2nd member of the Rich Gannon Amazing Incredible QB Turnaround Story Club.

[Lupz27]

14 minutes ago, jgb said:

No, my "argument" is not an argument at all. It's a statement of fact. Given Darnold's bottom-3 QB performance over the first three years of his career, his becoming a Franchise Quarterback would be nearly unprecedented and make him an outlier for which the only suitable comparator is Rich Gannon.

It is much more likely that Darnold remains a member of the club of hundreds of first-round QB busts than he ever gets invited to join as the 2nd member of the Rich Gannon Amazing Incredible QB Turnaround Story Club.

Not fact fiction, you making up the future to fit your argument how is a made up future facts.  Oh ok I’ll play along Sam Darnold will win the SB this year so how can be be a bust?

[jgb]

34 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

Not fact fiction, you making up the future to fit your argument how is a made up future facts.  Oh ok I’ll play along Sam Darnold will win the SB this year so how can be be a bust?

You can argue any point you wish. I'm comfortable that league history and statistical likelihood supports my position.

[Jackie Treehorn]

On 5/16/2021 at 10:24 PM, 32EBoozer said:

That pic is not good for anyone...

[jgb]

On 5/16/2021 at 10:24 PM, 32EBoozer said:

 

16 minutes ago, Jackie Treehorn said:

That pic is not good for anyone...

Would smash

[Snook]

On 5/17/2021 at 10:21 PM, Defense Wins Championships said:

Legit concern to have (I've had them over the years myself). 

But on the flip side.

Instead of being surrounded by BYU talent...

How awesome would Zach Wilson have looked surrounded by Alabama players and/or kids from Clemson etc? 

However...

STEVE MCNAIR, ALCORN STATE.

KURT WARNER, NORTHERN IOWA.

RICH GANNON, DELAWARE.

KEN O’BRIEN, UC DAVIS.

PHIL SIMMS, MOREHEAD STATE.

DOUG WILLIAMS, GRAMBLING.

JOSH ALLEN, WYOMING. 

CARSON WENTZ, NORTH DAKOTA STATE.

JIMMY GAROPPOLO, EASTERN ILLINOIS.

JOE FLACCO, DELAWARE.

TONY ROMO, EASTERN ILLINOIS.

If we only went by powerhouse conferences none of these guys would've ever been drafted. 

As an FSU fan I can't remember the last time the Seminoles or even Gators/Miami/Alabama etc produced an absolutely awesome NFL QB. 

Maybe it's not the school for awesome QBs. Or the teammates surrounding them. Or the conferences they play within where 90% of defensive opponents don't make the NFL to behind with etc. 

And rather all about the kids physical ability, throwing arm, accuracy, leadership qualities, Xs and Os and smarts etc that REALLY makes an awesome QB (coming out of college). 

I bet a lot of HOF QBs played College ball for historically non powerhouse program's. 

Steve Young , BYU

[Biggs]

On 5/16/2021 at 1:34 PM, Zach Made Me a Jets Fan said:

His biggest win was against James Madison, where he completed 6 of 10 pass attempts.

Fun fact.  In SF biggest win in years.  The NFC championship game against Green Bay.  Garropolo completed 6 passes in 8 attempts.