Rank-a-Bust (Sanchez v. Geno v. Darnold)

[jgb]

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

The lack of QBs up top wasn't that uncommon in the olden days.  I think as the contracts went wild QBs became commodities and teams no longer pass.  Need or no need.  In 2000 Pennington went 18.  He was the only one to go in the 1st.  It wasn't that bad a QB class.  Brady and Marc Bulger went in the 6th. The next year Vick went #1 and Brees didn't go until #32 which was the 2nd round because there still weren't any Texans. The next closest was 2010 when Bradford went #1 and the only other taken was Tebow went #25, but was that really as a QB? 

In 1988 and 1996 no QBs were taken.  In 1989 only Aikman.  In 1997 only Jim Drunken-Miller @ #26.  I think 2005 is both the "old ways" and the reason for the new era.  There was talk about Rodgers or Smith going #1 overall.  The Niners chose Smith and Rodgers lasted until #24.  Teams look at that and now they jump up to snatch these guys.  They don't flop around until the 2nd unless they have huge flaws.  

The point of this trivia lesson is that teams now move up for QBs even when they don't need them.  They look at them as trade chips or value beyond.  Sometimes geezers like me look at guys with flaws and think we should wait until the 2nd or later, but the fact is somebody is going to take a swing. It is why people thought you could wait on Mahomes.  Old-time-y thinking.  If the Niners waited on Lance they are probably looking at Mac Jones.  In fact, they'd probably be lucky to be looking at Mac Jones.  Some of you might like that idea.  John Lynch and I don't. 

I wish the Jets would take QBs when they don't think they need them because history has shown they probably do. Keep taking swings until you get on base.

[SAR I]

Mark Sanchez was not a bust.

He exceeded expectations and is the greatest postseason quarterback in team history.

SAR I

[jgb]

31 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Mark Sanchez was not a bust.

He exceeded expectations and is the greatest postseason quarterback in team history.

SAR I

I actually made this thread for you

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, UntouchableCrew said:

It was a joke -- I was scoffing at the idea that Geno had elite weapons.

Sorry, my sarcasm detector has been broken for the last week, lol.  I'll do better, promise!

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, jgb said:

I do despise Geno. I got that bust stink off him after his antics in the Green Room/agent-gate. Screamed a dude who lacked the maturity to shrug off adversity and learn from failure. I also believed his teammates would hate him. And apparently at least one did. A lot. lol.

BUT, seemingly paradoxically, I do not believe he was a bad draft pick. He was -- as you reference -- an early favorite to be #1 overall at the end of his Jr. season. He slid after regressing his Sr. year.* That's a very good type of QB to take in the 2nd round. Plenty of things to kill Idzik over, picking Geno at #52 or whatever it was isn't one of them, even though Geno geno'd and I hate his half-mouth-open face almost as much as IK's fist hates it.

*Just looked up his stats, his Sr. year looks pretty damn good by the numbers. Maybe the knock was he didn't progress enough?

 

Yep.  Those few posters who still were arguing as recently as 2020 that Macc was better than Idzik were absolutely insane.  Idzik did a few good things in his 2 years here, and there was actual logic to his moves.  Macc did no good things, and operated as if he was sabotaging the Jets on purpose.  He was that bad at his job.  By far the worst GM in the league at drafting in his 5 years here (as proven mathematically by Jason at overthecap.com, with his numbers on how many Macc picks ended up out of the league in 2 years or so), and somehow was even worse with his contracts and free agent signings. 

Idzik at least brought in a competent WR like Eric Decker to help out Geno Smith.  He also drafted a competent G in Brian Winters, who was a far better OL than any Macc drafted, and more of an investment on the OL than Maccagnan made in 5 full drafts.  2 other Idzik OL picks, Dakota Dozier and Oday Aboushi, are still bouncing around the league to this day as decent depth OL. 

Maccagnan, meanwhile, signed the likes of Trumaine Johnson and gave broke-neck Quincy Enunwa a ton of money....with injury guarantees.  Who the f**k does that?  And sure, Idzik had the "Idzik 12".  Well every year seemed like the "Idzik 12" when Maccagnan was drafting.

Luckily, Darnold being shipped off for a 2nd rounder closed the book on that argument for the remaining few Macc over Idzik people.  They couldn't reconcile how a competent GM like Joe Douglas opted not to trade down and "build around Sam", so, finally, they had to place the blame where it was supposed to go:  Mike Maccagnan. 

Not even @Pac argues that Macc was better than Idzik anymore.  Or, at the very least, he pretends these days like he always knew Macc was worse than Idzik....

[jgb]

5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Yep.  Those few posters who still were arguing as recently as 2020 that Macc was better than Idzik were absolutely insane.  Idzik did a few good things.  Macc did no good things, and operated as if he was sabotaging the Jets on purpose.  He was that bad at his job.  By far the worst GM at drafting, and somehow even worse with his contracts and free agent signings.  Idzik at least brought in a competent WR like Eric Decker to help out Geno Smith.  Maccagnan signed the likes of Trumaine Johnson and gave broke-neck Quincy Enunwa a ton of money....with injury guarantees.  Who the f**k does that?

Luckily, Darnold being shipped off for a 2nd rounder closed the book on that argument.  Not even @Pac argues that Macc was better than Idzik anymore.  Or, at the very least, he pretends these days like he always knew Macc was worse than Idzik....

Idzik's failing had a more catchy name "Idzik's Dirty Dozen" for his infamous 2014 draft. 

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, jgb said:

Idzik's failing had a more catchy name "Idzik's Dirty Dozen" for his infamous 2014 draft. 

Very true.  When you acquire a lot of picks and fail with them, it looks worse than the draft classes with just a few players taken, like Macc's.  But at least acquiring a lot of picks is a logical plan.  Macc had no plan. 

Meanwhile, Idzik's 2013 draft produced more talent than all of Macc's drafts combined.  It's easy to forget, but Sheldon Richardson was a dominant force early in his career here.  Quinnen Williams will most certainly be better, but he was Macc's ONLY good draft pick.  In 5 years.  And he was a DT....

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Very true.  When you acquire a lot of picks and fail with them, it looks worse than the draft classes with just a few players taken, like Macc's.  But at least acquiring a lot of picks is a logical plan.  Macc had no plan. 

Meanwhile, Idzik's 2013 draft produced more talent than all of Macc's drafts combined.  It's easy to forget, but Sheldon Richardson was a dominant force early in his career here.  Quinnen Williams will most certainly be better, but he was Macc's ONLY good draft pick.  In 5 years.  And he was a DT....

Macc's UDFAs have more talent than his draft picks combined.

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

I wish the Jets would take QBs when they don't think they need them because history has shown they probably do. Keep taking swings until you get on base.

Yep.  Even if Wilson looks very good next season, take another one relatively high next draft.  Why not?  They're by far the most valuable commodities in the sport, and we have a sh*t ton of other picks.

This is why the criticism over the James Morgan pick is so insane to me.  It makes no logical sense.  Even teams who have QB's use mid-round picks on QBs all the time.  We didn't have one, and somehow that is STILL the worst pick of the class to many here.  So weird.

[#27TheDominator]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Very true.  When you acquire a lot of picks and fail with them, it looks worse than the draft classes with just a few players taken, like Macc's.  But at least acquiring a lot of picks is a logical plan.  Macc had no plan. 

Meanwhile, Idzik's 2013 draft produced more talent than all of Macc's drafts combined.  It's easy to forget, but Sheldon Richardson was a dominant force early in his career here.  Quinnen Williams will most certainly be better, but he was Macc's ONLY good draft pick.  In 5 years.  And he was a DT....

That isn't really true.  Leonard Williams was a decent enough pick netting a third for a guy that forced the Giants to pay the franchise tag is a pretty decent pick.  Adams was a plenty good pick.  The problem is that you can't look at these drafts in a vacuum.  Adams is a very good player and we got an excellent return in the trade.  OTOH, taking a safety for a team starting Josh McCown with Hackenberg and Bryce Petty backing up is pretty unconscionable.  Especially with Mahomes and Watson sitting on the board.

[jgb]

4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yep.  Even if Wilson looks very good next season, take another one relatively high next draft.  Why not?  They're by far the most valuable commodities in the sport, and we have a sh*t ton of other picks.

This is why the criticism over the James Morgan pick is so insane to me.  It makes no logical sense.  Even teams who have QB's use mid-round picks on QBs all the time.  We didn't have one, and somehow that is STILL the worst pick of the class to many here.  So weird.

Anything that whiffs of a lack of total assurance that Wilson is The One cannot be countenanced by a large segment of the fan base.

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

That isn't really true.  Leonard Williams was a decent enough pick netting a third for a guy that forced the Giants to pay the franchise tag is a pretty decent pick.  Adams was a plenty good pick.  The problem is that you can't look at these drafts in a vacuum.  Adams is a very good player and we got an excellent return in the trade.  OTOH, taking a safety for a team starting Josh McCown with Hackenberg and Bryce Petty backing up is pretty unconscionable.  Especially with Mahomes and Watson sitting on the board.

Macc also had how many drafts compared to Idzik? Apples to oranges to compare the "highlights" from each man's tenure.

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, SAR I said:

Mark Sanchez was not a bust.

Yes, he was.

1 hour ago, SAR I said:

He exceeded expectations

No, he didn't.

1 hour ago, SAR I said:

and is the greatest postseason quarterback in team history.

He is, which says alot about our franchise.

1 hour ago, SAR I said:

SAR I

FISH 2

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

That isn't really true.  Leonard Williams was a decent enough pick netting a third for a guy that forced the Giants to pay the franchise tag is a pretty decent pick.  Adams was a plenty good pick.  The problem is that you can't look at these drafts in a vacuum.  Adams is a very good player and we got an excellent return in the trade.  OTOH, taking a safety for a team starting Josh McCown with Hackenberg and Bryce Petty backing up is pretty unconscionable.  Especially with Mahomes and Watson sitting on the board.

If Leonard Williams had done anything in a Jets uniform I'd agree with you.  I should have only included their Jets' performance in the argument.  

And Douglas working his magic in the Adams trade wasn't a Maccagnan accomplishment, so I don't give him any credit there, either.  Fair or not, I don't care, Macc was the absolute worst.

[k-met57]

3 hours ago, Zachtomims47 said:

Oh? Do tell...

if i need to explain to you how having no receivers, no OL, no running backs, and no good coaching could stop a QB from doing anything in the NFL...i rather not.

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

Anything that whiffs of a lack of total assurance that Wilson is The One cannot be countenanced by a large segment of the fan base.

And that's where Douglas needs to say "f**k the fans".  He's shown he has the balls to do exactly that.

[Warfish]

6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

This is why the criticism over the James Morgan pick is so insane to me.  It makes no logical sense.  Even teams who have QB's use mid-round picks on QBs all the time.  We didn't have one, and somehow that is STILL the worst pick of the class to many here.  So weird.

Remind me, are you for or against signing a Hoyer/Mullens/Similar as our #2 QB this year?

[k-met57]

4 hours ago, TeddEY said:

Reasons Sam Darnold is a bust:

• Drafted 3rd overall, including a trade up of 3 2nd round picks.
• Leagues worst QB over 3 years in DVOA and DYAR
• Leagues 2nd worst QB over 3 years when controlling for throws under pressure
• League leading INTs in the Redzone
• 31st QB in passer rating in 2020, almost 30 points below league average
• Compares unfavorably to Blake Bortles over their first 35 games
• Unable to stay healthy, never completing a full season
• Overall record of 13-25
• Traded in 2021 for a 2022 2nd round pick

Reasons Sam Darnold is not a bust:

• Once played well against Green Bay in a loss.
• But ADDAAAAAAAAAAMMMM GAAAAAAAAAAASSE

i mean listen who wouldnt ball out with braxton barrios, chris hogan, jamison crowder and frank gore...my bad you are right.

[jgb]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

If Leonard Williams had done anything in a Jets uniform I'd agree with you.  I should have only included their Jets' performance in the argument.  

And Douglas working his magic in the Adams trade wasn't a Maccagnan accomplishment, so I don't give him any credit there, either.  Fair or not, I don't care, Macc was the absolute worst.

[k-met57]

4 hours ago, jgb said:

My bad, epic bust.

could be set of your posts...

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, k-met57 said:

if i need to explain to you how having no receivers, no OL, no running backs, and no good coaching could stop a QB from doing anything in the NFL...i rather not.

Do these things hurt a QB?  Yes.  Prevent them from having any success in the league?  Absolutely not.  

And he didn't completely lack OL, RB's or WR's.  They looked a lot worse than they were because of who was under center.  QB's are the horses that pull the cart when it comes to offense.  Otherwise QB's wouldn't get paid so much more than every other position, as well as the coaches and GM's, to do his job.  

[jgb]

1 minute ago, k-met57 said:

if i need to explain to you how having no receivers, no OL, no running backs, and no good coaching could stop a QB from doing anything in the NFL...i rather not.

Yes but there is a lot of daylight between the Jets talent sucked therefore the QB must be a secret FQB in disguise.

Far more likely the suck was universal and interdependent. 

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

1 minute ago, k-met57 said:

if i need to explain to you how having no receivers, no OL, no running backs, and no good coaching could stop a QB from doing anything in the NFL...i rather not.

Eh. Doesn’t mean he has to totally suck too and be the worst QB in the NFL. 
But whatever. 

[jgb]

1 minute ago, k-met57 said:

could be set of your posts...

If that's the cost of being right about the Jets for many years, can I pay it twice?

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, Warfish said:

Remind me, are you for or against signing a Hoyer/Mullens/Similar as our #2 QB this year?

I'm absolutely for bringing in a vet backup.  It never hurts to have more QB's in the QB room. As long as none of the backup QB's are preventing Wilson from getting as many reps as possible, add as many as you'd like.  

My preference would be for Morgan to be able to win the job, but if he's good enough to do that, then none of those backup QB's would get in his way and they'd be easy to cut. 

[Warfish]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

I'm absolutely for bringing in a vet backup.  It never hurts to have more QB's in the QB room. As long as none of the backup QB's are preventing Wilson from getting as many reps as possible, add as many as you'd like.  

My preference would be for Morgan to be able to win the job, but if he's good enough to do that, then none of those backup QB's would get in his way and they'd be easy to cut. 

Do you honestly think if we bring in a FA Veteran, and either pay him or trade to get him, that Morgan would really be given a fair chance to "win the #2 job"? 

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, k-met57 said:

i mean listen who wouldnt ball out with braxton barrios, chris hogan, jamison crowder and frank gore...my bad you are right.

Bad WR's doesn't automatically mean you end up ranked QB # 36 in the NFL. 

Plus, Joe Flacco looked pretty good throwing to Denzel Mims and Breshad Perriman.  Darnold sucked throwing to those 2.  Darnold was supposed to be much better than 35-year old, one-foot-in-retirement Joe Flacco.  Not about as good or worse than him.  

[k-met57]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Do these things hurt a QB?  Yes.  Prevent them from having any success in the league?  Absolutely not.  

And he didn't completely lack OL, RB's or WR's.  They looked a lot worse than they were because of who was under center.  QB's are the horses that pull the cart when it comes to offense.  Otherwise QB's wouldn't get paid so much more than every other position, as well as the coaches and GM's, to do his job.  

ok sure. plz name all the QB's that came into the league as rookies with the equivalent level of talent around them...and set the world on fire. ill wait.

also, not all QB's are able to come in as rookies or second year guys and make gold bars out of turds. i am not even sure Mahomes would have been anywhere near Mahomes had he beed dropped into this dumpster fire.

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, Warfish said:

Do you honestly think if we bring in a FA Veteran, and either pay him or trade to get him, that Morgan would really be given a fair chance to "win the #2 job"? 

It would be hard for him to do so, because reps would be limited.  The backups would be splitting the QB2 reps.  They wouldn't be stealing reps from Wilson (or at least they shouldn't be)  So if more reps is what it would take for Morgan to get a real opportunity at the QB2 job, then no, I wouldn't be as supportive of signing a veteran QB.

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, k-met57 said:

ok sure. plz name all the QB's that came into the league as rookies with the equivalent level of talent around them...and set the world on fire. ill wait.

also, not all QB's are able to come in as rookies or second year guys and make gold bars out of turds. i am not even sure Mahomes would have been anywhere near Mahomes had he beed dropped into this dumpster fire.

@Jetsfan80 cutting and pasting his list of first round busts who sucked as rookies and sucked forever.

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, k-met57 said:

ok sure. plz name all the QB's that came into the league as rookies with the equivalent level of talent around them...and set the world on fire. ill wait.

also, not all QB's are able to come in as rookies or second year guys and make gold bars out of turds. i am not even sure Mahomes would have been anywhere near Mahomes had he beed dropped into this dumpster fire.

 

Justin Herbert had the # 32 OL in the NFL last year and was the Offensive Rookie of the Year.  Yes, his receivers were much better than Darnold's.  But 31 TDs to 10 INTs doesn't lie.  He was excellent in less than ideal circumstances.  That alone demonstrates that Darnold should have performed much better than he did if he was any good at playing QB.  Certainly he should have ranked a good bit higher than QB # 36 in his 3rd season in the league.  

Sometimes life isn't fair and you get dealt a bad hand.  You need to rise above it from time to time.  Not just suck and be left with a huge pile of excuses.  

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, jgb said:

@Jetsfan80 cutting and pasting his list of first round busts who sucked as rookies and sucked forever.

 

Not worth it, lol.  

[jgb]

4 minutes ago, k-met57 said:

ok sure. plz name all the QB's that came into the league as rookies with the equivalent level of talent around them...and set the world on fire. ill wait.

also, not all QB's are able to come in as rookies or second year guys and make gold bars out of turds. i am not even sure Mahomes would have been anywhere near Mahomes had he beed dropped into this dumpster fire.

Well and good but you can't skip over the million miles of logic necessary to get from "situation sucked" to "therefore QB good." Like high school Algebra, you gotta show your work for credit.

[Warfish]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

It would be hard for him to do so, because reps would be limited.  The backups would be splitting the QB2 reps.  They wouldn't be stealing reps from Wilson (or at least they shouldn't be)  So if more reps is what it would take for Morgan to get a real opportunity at the QB2 job, then no, I wouldn't be as supportive of signing a veteran QB.

Agreed.

Something I'm a bit tired of with the Jets, is drafting QB's that never see the light of day or get a chance to even be the #2.  Hackenberg being the poster child (he would have failed, we all know, but still).  Now it's Morgan.

Drafting a QB "till we hit on one" is an idea I support, but the guys we take need reps, and they don't get them when they are permanently behind a veteran holding the #2 spot purely due to cost and NFL Head Coaches ultra-conservativism when it comes to QB's. 

[Jetsfan80]

4 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Do you honestly think if we bring in a FA Veteran, and either pay him or trade to get him, that Morgan would really be given a fair chance to "win the #2 job"? 

 

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

It would be hard for him to do so, because reps would be limited.  The backups would be splitting the QB2 reps.  They wouldn't be stealing reps from Wilson (or at least they shouldn't be)  So if more reps is what it would take for Morgan to get a real opportunity at the QB2 job, then no, I wouldn't be as supportive of signing a veteran QB.

 

To add to this:  I guess the best solution would be to give Morgan as many QB2 reps as possible and see if he is capable of winning the job this summer.  If he doesn't, THEN go ahead and pick up a veteran as soon as you're aware he isn't ready. 

A veteran doesn't need as much time to catch up on the playbook as a younger guy, so the veteran would likely be ready to steal the QB2 job pretty quickly, even in a short period of time.  Plus, the longer you wait into the offseason, the more likely a higher caliber QB will get cut loose during roster cutdowns.   There are always "surprise cuts" at that stage.