Rank-a-Bust (Sanchez v. Geno v. Darnold)

[jgb]

6 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

lol.  And Geno Smith didn't?  He won an AFC player of the Month, my man.  He also had an 8-8 season. 

Darnold and Geno Smith are not that far off.  The problem is Geno Smith's attitude sucked.  Sammy is a nice boy so far too many people think he's better than he is.

I am loathe to say anything positive about Geno Smith but "he was better than Sam Darnold" has the benefit of being both true and not all that nice.

[DoubleDown]

Darnold was absolutely a bust for the Jets, but I think the negativity toward him from certain Jets fans is overblown.

Circumstances DO matter.  Darnold is a broken quarterback.  Nothing more, nothing less.  The injuries/illnesses, two years under pathetic coaching, and poor players surrounding him on offense added up to a complete collapse in 2020 for him professionally.  Will this forever define him?  Is he forever a broken quarterback?  Possibly, but I think there is certainly a possibility that he can become a middle of the pack NFL starter with competent coaching and players around him.  Time will tell.  There is no denying that it will be an uphill battle for him.

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, DoubleDown said:

Darnold was absolutely a bust for the Jets, but I think the negativity toward him from certain Jets fans is overblown.

Circumstances DO matter.  Darnold is a broken quarterback.  Nothing more, nothing less.  The injuries/illnesses, two years under pathetic coaching, and poor players surrounding him on offense added up to a complete collapse in 2020 for him professionally.  Will this forever define him?  Is he forever a broken quarterback?  Possibly, but I think there is certainly a possibility that he can become a middle of the pack NFL starter with competent coaching and players around him.  Time will tell.  There is no denying that it will be an uphill battle for him.

 

You neglected to include these circumstances:  That he was a # 3 pick who we traded three 2nd round picks to acquire.  And in saying that I will agree with you:  Circumstances DO matter.  

Was that part his fault?  No.  But with great expectations comes great anger when they don't pan out.  It's at least an understandable response.  If he wasn't such a nice kid I'd loathe him.  As it stands I just call him a mush and a bit of a wuss who sucks at football.  He's a multi-millionaire so I doubt he cares very much that I dislike him.  We're left with the aftermath of his failure while he's having fun in beautiful Charlotte.  The dude literally had a party when he was traded, lol.

[DoubleDown]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

You neglected to include these circumstances:  That he was a # 3 pick who we traded three 2nd round picks to acquire.

Was that part his fault?  No.  But with great expectations comes great anger when they don't pan out.  It's at least an understandable response.  If he wasn't such a nice kid I'd loathe him.  As it stands I just call him a mush and a bit of a wuss who sucks at football.  He's a multi-millionaire so I doubt he cares very much that I dislike him.  We're left with the aftermath while he's having fun in beautiful Charlotte.

The ironic part is that the price paid to move up and select him likely had a measurable impact on his ultimate failure.

With that said, I think some people, including Joe Douglas, recognize that the raw talent for Darnold is there, and he was put in a very tough situation from a very young age.  I think much of the decision around trading Darnold and drafting Wilson had to do with resetting the quarterback clock.

[Jetsfan80]

8 minutes ago, DoubleDown said:

The ironic part is that the price paid to move up and select him likely had a measurable impact on his ultimate failure.

With that said, I think some people, including Joe Douglas, recognize that the raw talent for Darnold is there, and he was put in a very tough situation from a very young age.  I think much of the decision around trading Darnold and drafting Wilson had to do with resetting the quarterback clock.

How so?  Bad teams are typically the ones taking QB's high.  It's a rarity when a solid QB prospect lands with an Andy Reid or in Baltimore.  You deal with the hand you're dealt. 

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, DoubleDown said:

The ironic part is that the price paid to move up and select him likely had a measurable impact on his ultimate failure.

With that said, I think some people, including Joe Douglas, recognize that the raw talent for Darnold is there, and he was put in a very tough situation from a very young age.  I think much of the decision around trading Darnold and drafting Wilson had to do with resetting the quarterback clock.

Jets would've happily paid Darnold his 5th year option if he was good at playing football. They traded him because he was bad at his job, not to reset the QB clock.

[DoubleDown]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

How so?  Bad teams are typically the ones taking QB's high.  It's a rarity when a solid QB prospect lands with an Andy Reid or in Baltimore.  You deal with the hand you're dealt.  

The three second rounders used to move up could have theoretically been used to build around him and put NFL level talent around him.

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

How so?  Bad teams are typically the ones taking QB's high.  It's a rarity when a solid QB prospect lands with an Andy Reid or in Baltimore.  You deal with the hand you're dealt.  

And if Douglas really recognized the "raw talent" in Darnold, he'd have kept him and traded down rather than settling for a 2022 2nd round pick.  

Just another repackaging of the "situation bad therefore QB good" argument.

[Jetsfan80]

4 minutes ago, DoubleDown said:

The three second rounders used to move up could have theoretically been used to build around him and put NFL level talent around him.

Ah I see.  On that we agree:  It was a bad trade, especially since Macc didn't know WHICH QB he was getting when he moved up, and Darnold may well have ended up falling to us at 6 anyways.

But again, you deal with the hand you're dealt.  3 second round picks weren't suddenly going to make Darnold any good at football.

[Jetsfan80]

9 minutes ago, DoubleDown said:

With that said, I think some people, including Joe Douglas, recognize that the raw talent for Darnold is there, and he was put in a very tough situation from a very young age.  I think much of the decision around trading Darnold and drafting Wilson had to do with resetting the quarterback clock.

 

If Douglas really recognized the "raw talent" in Darnold, he'd have kept him and traded down rather than settling for a 2022 2nd round pick.  

If anything is overblown, its this "raw talent" we've been told about for years with Darnold.  Nothing he does on the field is special.  He's only measurably more athletically gifted than the likes of Gardner Minshew.  At least half the other QB's in the league can do what Darnold does physically (and most certainly many more are better at the mental aspect of the game; a number which must exceed at least 30).  Some of these QB's in that category are transcendent physical talents. 

To make matters worse, Darnold hasn't proven he can stay healthy, meaning any gifts he has get wasted in the 3+ games he missed each season.  You simply can't count on a guy who isn't physically or mentally tough, even if he is physically gifted (which, compared to a lot of other QB's around the league, Darnold simply isn't).  

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Ah I see.  On that we agree:  It was a bad trade, especially since Macc didn't know WHICH QB he was getting when he moved up, and Darnold may well have ended up falling to us at 6 anyways.

But again, you deal with the hand you're dealt.  3 second round picks weren't suddenly going to make Darnold any good at football.

The most likely result when Macc moved up was that he would be taking Rosen -- the only first round QB from that year worse than Darnold.

[DoubleDown]

13 minutes ago, jgb said:

Just another repackaging of the "situation bad therefore QB good" argument.

Nah, not at all.  He's a bad, broken quarterback right now.  Not sure how much clearer that can be.

He was at his best in his rookie year when he was playing with instincts and before he was shell shocked by a historically bad offensive line and put in a system that doesn't play to his strengths.

My point is that it's possible he can get back to a better place with better circumstances around him.  If I was starting a new team today, he wouldn't be the 36th quarterback I would consider as his stats from 2020 suggest.  The Panthers agree with that viewpoint otherwise they never would have traded 2nd, 4th, and 6th round picks for him.

[jgb]

4 minutes ago, DoubleDown said:

Nah, not at all.  He's a bad, broken quarterback right now.  Not sure how much clearer that can be.

He was at his best in his rookie year when he was playing with instincts and before he was shell shocked by a historically bad offensive line and put in a system that doesn't play to his strengths.

My point is that it's possible he can get back to a better place with better circumstances around him.  If I was starting a new team today, he wouldn't be the 36th quarterback I would consider as his stats from 2020 suggest.  The Panthers agree with the viewpoint otherwise they never would have traded a 2nd, 4th, and 6th round pick for him.

I hear ya. But lots of things are possible. This isn't very likely at all. 

Josh Rosen was traded for a 2nd rounder BTW. First round QBs always get a second chance. Nothing unique about Darnold there. Ever notice that none of the defenses of Darnold are actually about him? It's always situation this, coaching this, etc. What differentiates him from the dozens and dozens of first round QB busts? Had we selected Rosen, we would be hearing the same things to the letter. It's a cut and paste argument.

[DoubleDown]

9 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

If Douglas really recognized the "raw talent" in Darnold, he'd have kept him and traded down rather than settling for a 2022 2nd round pick.

Disagree.  He was in a good position to draft a highly rated prospect at a cheap price (no trade up) and reset the quarterback clock.  Joe Douglas is playing money ball.

[Jetsfan80]

6 minutes ago, DoubleDown said:

Nah, not at all.  He's a bad, broken quarterback right now.  Not sure how much clearer that can be.

He was always a bad QB.  Including at USC, when he led FBS in turnovers his final year in school.  Much like his NFL resume, his entire resume was propped up by one game.  The Rose Bowl in college and the Packer game in the NFL.  

The brokenness came later.  And not all of it was the mean old Jets' or Bowles/Bates/Gase's fault.  

[jgb]

 

6 minutes ago, DoubleDown said:

Disagree.  He was in a good position to draft a highly rated prospect at a cheap price (no trade up) and reset the quarterback clock.  Joe Douglas is playing money ball.

I honestly don't even know where to start with this.

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

He was always a bad QB.  Including at USC, when he led FBS in turnovers his final year in school.  

The brokenness came later.  

But he's a good kid.

[Jetsfan80]

6 minutes ago, DoubleDown said:

Disagree.  He was in a good position to draft a highly rated prospect at a cheap price (no trade up) and reset the quarterback clock.  Joe Douglas is playing money ball.

But if Darnold was this secretly good QB with a lot of raw talent in Douglas' eyes, then Darnold would have been the guy to build around, not a new QB.  And he CERTAINLY wouldn't have settled for a 2022 2nd round pick (which amounts to a 2021 3rd rounder on the chart) when trading him away.  He'd have demanded a 2021 1st rounder.

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

But if Darnold was this secretly good QB with a lot of raw talent in Douglas' eyes, then Darnold would have been the guy to build around, not a new QB.  And he CERTAINLY wouldn't have settled for a 2022 2nd round pick (which amounts to a 2021 3rd rounder on the chart) when trading him away.  He'd have demanded a 2021 1st rounder.

One does not draft a QB with the #2 pick in the draft when you have a Franchise QB still under his rookie contract.

[Jetsfan80]

8 minutes ago, jgb said:

I hear ya. But lots of things are possible. This isn't very likely at all. 

Josh Rosen was traded for a 2nd rounder BTW. First round QBs always get a second chance. Nothing unique about Darnold there. Ever notice that none of the defenses of Darnold are actually about him? It's always situation this, coaching this, etc. What differentiates him from the dozens and dozens of first round QB busts? Had we selected Rosen, we would be hearing the same things to the letter. It's a cut and paste argument.

With the only difference being the Cardinals correctly cut ties after 13 starts and immediately got a much better QB in there. 

We gave him 38 and still quite a few fans (some of them reasonable people!) think he's actually good.

You don't hear anyone saying Arizona moved on too quickly from Rosen, but you do hear that about the Jets and Darnold.

[Jetsfan80]

11 minutes ago, DoubleDown said:

The Panthers agree with that viewpoint otherwise they never would have traded 2nd, 4th, and 6th round picks for him.

That's not a high price to pay, at all.  A 2022 2nd round pick is a 2021 3rd on the chart.

And quite a few Panthers fans think they gave up too much, and made a big mistake to install him as their immediate starter without giving him a legit competitor in camp (sound familiar?). 

It will not work out.  I am willing to guarantee that.

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

With the only difference being the Cardinals correctly cut ties after 13 starts and immediately got a much better QB in there. 

We gave him 38 and still quite a few fans (some of them reasonable people!) think he's actually good.

You don't hear anyone saying Arizona moved on too quickly from Rosen, but you do hear that about the Jets and Darnold.

If Darnold were drafted by the Bills, you can imagine all the laughs we would've had at their expense over the last 3 years. Hell, some people here did laugh at the Bills for taking Allen!

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, jgb said:

If Darnold were drafted by the Bills, you can imagine all the laughs we would've had at their expense over the last 3 years. Hell, some people here did laugh at the Bills for taking Allen!

Me included.  And I was still laughing for those first 2 seasons.  I ended up dead wrong.  

[jgb]

6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Me included.  And I was laughing for those first 2 seasons.  I ended up dead wrong.  

Happens to all of us. The difference is, some people change their opinion as more evidence is gathered. Others stubbornly stick to it forever in spite of any and all evidence. They lie in wait like a cobra backed in a gopher hole hoping that some day -- could be years from now -- an outlier event allows them to strike out with an "I told you so!" only to retreat once again.

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, jgb said:

Happens to all of us. The difference is, some people change their opinion as more evidence is gathered. Others stubbornly stick to it forever in spite of any and all evidence. They lie in wait like a cobra backed in a gopher hole hoping that at some point -- could be years from now -- an outlier event allows them to strike out with an "I told you so!" only to retreat once again.

 

@nico002 @QB1

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

@nico002 @QB1

I hope Darnold plays really well week 1 but the Panthers lose. Let the Darnoids get all puffed up and confident and ripe for the plucking.

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, jgb said:

I hope Darnold plays really well week 1 but the Panthers lose. Let the Darnoids get all puffed up and confident and ripe for the plucking.

I'm fine with that, win and I won't care too much how Darnold performs.  We own Carolina's 2nd and 4th round picks next season.  Anyone rooting for the Panthers to win a single game next season all in the effort to support Sweet Sammy are out of their minds. 

[jgb]

12 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

With the only difference being the Cardinals correctly cut ties after 13 starts and immediately got a much better QB in there. 

We gave him 38 and still quite a few fans (some of them reasonable people!) think he's actually good.

You don't hear anyone saying Arizona moved on too quickly from Rosen, but you do hear that about the Jets and Darnold.

Remember being called a HATER for arguing that no way in H-E-L-L Darnold was going to return a first round draft pick? 

Now it's "Wow, a future 2nd rounder! How can you possibly deny the po-ten-shul!??"

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, jgb said:

Remember being called a HATER for arguing that no way in H-E-L-L Darnold was going to return a first round draft pick? 

Now it's "Wow, a future 2nd rounder! How can you possibly deny the po-ten-shul!??"

 

@Pac

[Pac]

7 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

@Pac

Not sure why tagging me..  the return was much closer to what predicted than the ridiculousness most said.

In fact the 2nd, 4th, 6th is equal to a late 1st.

You knuckle draggers were the ones carrying on about a lone 4th. 

 

 

[DoubleDown]

34 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

But if Darnold was this secretly good QB with a lot of raw talent in Douglas' eyes, then Darnold would have been the guy to build around, not a new QB.  And he CERTAINLY wouldn't have settled for a 2022 2nd round pick (which amounts to a 2021 3rd rounder on the chart) when trading him away.  He'd have demanded a 2021 1st rounder.

If Darnold was going into his second or third year (instead of his fourth) or the Jets were drafting in the middle of the first round (instead of #2), then I believe Darnold is still the quarterback of the Jets and Joe Douglas is trying to build around him.

Saying he has raw talent (my claim) and saying he is secretly good (not my claim) are two completely different things.

[DoubleDown]

Just now, DoubleDown said:

.

[Dunnie]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

I am loathe to say anything positive about Geno Smith but "he was better than Sam Darnold" has the benefit of being both true and not very nice.

McClellan was a better leader of men.

[jgb]

1 hour ago, DoubleDown said:

If Darnold was going into his second or third year (instead of his fourth) or the Jets were drafting in the middle of the first round (instead of #2), then I believe Darnold is still the quarterback of the Jets and Joe Douglas is trying to build around him.

Saying he has raw talent (my claim) and saying he is secretly good (not my claim) are two completely different things.

Jamarcus Russell could throw the ball through a brick wall.

Takes more than talent. Darnold has demonstrated that the only thing he has is raw talent. We needed to see more, we did not, it's over. 

[Gramsci]

5 hours ago, doitny said:

Sanchez benefited from a stacked team. and he will always have those playoff wins no matter what. Sam will never have them, at least not as a jet. and he was suppose to be better so hes the worst bust in this poll.

the whole thing about Sam not having a good team is BS. a good QB would have made Crowder, Mims and Perriman look like all pros.

well maybe not all pros but you get the picture.

do you think if we traded our WRs with Houston that Watson wouldnt still pass for those crazy numbers? would the Houston WRs make Sam put up Watson like numbers? same with Herbert and the Chargers. and they had the worst OL in the NFL according to PFF.

QBs make there WRs look good. not the other way around. 

if Sam needs a stacked team to succeed then he sucks. he will be Mark Sanchez. doing just enough but never taking the team on his back to win a big game. and without it he will be butt fumble Sanchez.

 

 

Sanchez had one of the best, if not the best roster in the league. Darnold had one of the worst, if not the worst roster in the league. 

Is that not relevant? 

Even the receivers had better seasons under Darnold then under Sanchez, even taking into account how much worse the group is, the lack of an elite running game and one of the best OL units in the league. 

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, DoubleDown said:

With that said, I think some people, including Joe Douglas, recognize that the raw talent for Darnold is there, and he was put in a very tough situation from a very young age.  I think much of the decision around trading Darnold and drafting Wilson had to do with resetting the quarterback clock.

I kind of think the "raw talent" is a bit overstated.  Darnold doesn't have a great arm and he certainly doesn't have great accuracy.  He's strong and he's somewhat evasive, but he's not going to hurt people with his feet either.

Darnold is a QB that ultimately needed to have it between the ears.  And there, he's severely lacking.

As we see time and again, the NFL is simply too late to learn to play QB.  Even more so when you don't have elite physical tools to cover up your shortcomings.