Are we really going to start the season with zero pro experience at the QB spot?

[UntouchableCrew]

The question of whether or not we need a backup QB really comes down to how good are James Morgan and Mike White?

I tend to agree with those who think we don't need a "mentor" type on the roster -- but what I don't want is a Luke Falk situation where the starter goes down and we literally don't have an NFL caliber player at the position.

I think for the benefit of the young offensive nucleus (and really, the whole team from a culture standpoint) we want to make progress in the W column in 2021 even if Zach misses time. We need someone competent at QB2.

I have no idea if James Morgan can do that but I was not encouraged he wasn't dressing for games while we trotted out Darnold and Flacco, both of whom were poor players.

[JoJoTownsell1]

10 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Logical fallacy. It didn't work with Sam Darnold, therefor it hasn't worked before or will work ever again. 

I am not saying having a Josh Mccown doesn't help, to some extent, but there is really no evidence to indicate that a QBs long term success has anything to do with his backup as a rookie. 

 I don't think Peyton Manning or Elway or Favre or Rodgers or Brady or Mahomes have different career paths based on who they had a backup in their first year as a starter. 

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

14 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

I am not saying having a Josh Mccown doesn't help, to some extent, but there is really no evidence to indicate that a QBs long term success has anything to do with his backup as a rookie. 

 I don't think Peyton Manning or Elway or Favre or Rodgers or Brady or Mahomes have different career paths based on who they had a backup in their first year as a starter. 

There is a reason why the overwhelming majority of teams have a veteran back up for their young QB. I'm going to side with NFL coaches on this one. 

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

23 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

Josh Mccown was a great backup and great mentor and Sam Darnold still ended up sucking. Conclusion: the backup QB to a young Franchise QB is irrelevant. 

Logical fallacy. 

[kevinc855]

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

There's no way to prove this until the results start showing up on the field, but every time you whine about Douglas not addressing a position of need, he does so, and it looks like a savvy move.  

I have a feeling you'll be eating an awful lot of crow about Joe Douglas beginning in 2021.

not at all. I have been rooting for this team. 

His picks in 2020 still have yet to pan out, we still dont have a kicker who has proven themselves. 

That said. im content with this last draft class? Are you all triggered by all the safety picks?

[kevinc855]

1 hour ago, CanadaSteve said:

How long do you have?

go ahead

[JoJoTownsell1]

8 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Logical fallacy. 

 

9 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

There is a reason why the overwhelming majority of teams have a veteran back up for their young QB. I'm going to side with NFL coaches on this one. 

You have yet to show any evidence for your conclusion that a good veteran backup QB has an impact on a young QBs success.  

[Warfish]

55 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Logical fallacy. It didn't work with Sam Darnold, therefor it hasn't worked before or will work ever again. 

It's only a logical fallacy if you can show that it works, and more, works more often than it fails.

Do you have an example where it worked for the Jets?  I don't think I'm aware of one.

Do you have an example more broadly to support the argument for it?

And a follow-up, what does a Nick Mullens or a Brian Hoyer provide, specifically, that Wilson needs?  

[JoJoTownsell1]

Just now, Warfish said:

It's only a logical fallacy if you can show that it works, and more, works more often than it fails.

Do you have an example where it worked for the Jets?  I don't think I'm aware of one.

Do you have an example more broadly to support the argument for it?

And a follow-up, what does a Nick Mullens or a Brian Hoyer provide, specifically, that Wilson needs?  

Not only that, but some vet Qbs may come in here with the desire to play. What makes anyone think a good vet will be motivated to see Wilson do so well that they never get a chance to play? 

Peyton Manning's backup as a rookie was Torrance Small. 

Sam Darnold had Josh Mccown. 

Based on those two examples, Darnold should be the Hall of Famer. 

Obviously two examples doesn't prove anything, but we aren't the ones suggesting that Wilson needs a good/smart/experienced veteran backup. 

[Savage69]

5 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

Not only that, but some vet Qbs may come in here with the desire to play. What makes anyone think a good vet will be motivated to see Wilson do so well that they never get a chance to play? 

Peyton Manning's backup as a rookie was Torrance Small. 

Sam Darnold had Josh Mccown. 

Based on those two examples, Darnold should be the Hall of Famer. 

Obviously two examples doesn't prove anything, but we aren't the ones suggesting that Wilson needs a good/smart/experienced veteran backup. 

I could see having a good backup if your a playoff team but at this point in time we are not..

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Logical fallacy. It didn't work with Sam Darnold, therefor it hasn't worked before or will work ever again. 

It didn't work for Sanchez either with Mark Brunell.   Or for Johnny Manziel when McCown was in Cleveland.  Or for JaMarcus Russell when McCown was in Oakland.  Or for Mike Glennon when McCown was in Tampa Bay.  Or for Ryan Leaf when Jim Harbaugh was his backup QB in San Diego.  Or for David Carr when he had Tony Banks in Houston. 

Are you gonna credit Tyrod Taylor a bunch for Justin Herbert's success in LA last season?  Or Alex Smith for Pat Mahomes' early success?  Who was Kyler Murray's backup as a rookie?  Ah, yes, Brett Hundley!  How instrumental!  Josh Allen's backups?  Derek Anderson, Matt Barkley, Nathan Peterman.  Oof, talk about a Murderer's Row of veteran mentors.  How about Russell Wilson?  Oh, yes, the great Matt Flynn must have given him some sweet pointers.

When young QB's succeed, hardly anyone mentions the backup QB.  They talk about traits the QB already has or they talk about his HC, OC, and/or receiving corps/OL.  It really doesn't make much of a difference if a rookie QB has a veteran backup or not.  

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

13 minutes ago, Warfish said:

It's only a logical fallacy if you can show that it works, and more, works more often than it fails.

Do you have an example where it worked for the Jets?  I don't think I'm aware of one.

Do you have an example more broadly to support the argument for it?

And a follow-up, what does a Nick Mullens or a Brian Hoyer provide, specifically, that Wilson needs?  

You used a logical fallacy to explain why your logical fallacy wasn't a logical fallacy. 

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

It didn't work for Sanchez either with Mark Brunell.

When young QB's succeed, hardly anyone mentions the backup QB.  They talk about traits the QB already has or they talk about his HC, OC, and/or receiving corps.  It really doesn't make much of a difference if a rookie QB has a veteran backup or not.  

I never said that a mentor guarantees success or not having a mentor guarantees failure. 

[Jetsfan80]

8 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

I never said that a mentor guarantees success or not having a mentor guarantees failure. 

You argued a veteran backup has some importance when clearly it really does not.  

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

43 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

 

You have yet to show any evidence for your conclusion that a good veteran backup QB has an impact on a young QBs success.  

Why do I have to show evidence for an assertion I never made? 

It's my opinion that a young QB COULD benefit from having a veteran back up. I never said that it is required. I never said that I would have a problem with the Jets rolling with Morgan and White as back ups. Like I previously said in this thread, a QB is going to be good or he is not. I will make a soft assertion that a veteran back up COULD help in the development of a young QB. 

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You argued a veteran backup has some importance when clearly it really does not.  

You are making the assertion that it "clearly it really does not." Is that your opinion, or back up by data?

Show me where I "argued a veteran back up has some importance." I did say that a veteran QB could help with preparation and help with making in game adjustments, but you're not going to find me making an assertion that a veteran back up is necessary.

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

You are making the assertion that it "clearly it really does not." Is that your opinion, or back up by data?

Show me where I "argued a veteran back up has some importance." I did say that a veteran QB could help with preparation and help with making in game adjustments, but you're not going to find me making an assertion that a veteran back up is necessary.

 

I mean, without even really trying, I just reeled off over 10 instances where it didn't seem to matter, in either direction, so, yeah, I'd say maybe the data suggests it doesn't matter.  If it did, every NFL team would prioritize signing a Josh McCown of their own to mentor their young QB.  If it mattered, the Cardinals wouldn't have paired Kyler Murray with Brett Hundley as a rookie.

It really doesn't seem to be a big deal in NFL circles, so why should it be a big deal to us armchair GM's?  

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

17 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

It didn't work for Sanchez either with Mark Brunell.   Or for Johnny Manziel when McCown was in Cleveland.  Or for JaMarcus Russell when McCown was in Oakland.  Or for Mike Glennon when McCown was in Tampa Bay.  Or for Ryan Leaf when Jim Harbaugh was his backup QB in San Diego.  Or for David Carr when he had Tony Banks in Houston. 

Are you gonna credit Tyrod Taylor a bunch for Justin Herbert's success in LA last season?  Or Alex Smith for Pat Mahomes' early success?  Who was Kyler Murray's backup as a rookie?  Ah, yes, Brett Hundley!  How instrumental!  Josh Allen's backups?  Derek Anderson, Matt Barkley, Nathan Peterman.  Oof, talk about a Murderer's Row of veteran mentors.  How about Russell Wilson?  Oh, yes, the great Matt Flynn must have given him some sweet pointers.

When young QB's succeed, hardly anyone mentions the backup QB.  They talk about traits the QB already has or they talk about his HC, OC, and/or receiving corps/OL.  It really doesn't make much of a difference if a rookie QB has a veteran backup or not.  

Great! You just made an argument against an assertion that I did not make. Care to argue against any other assertions that I am not making?

 

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

I mean, without even really trying, I just reeled off over 10 instances where it didn't seem to matter, in either direction, so, yeah, I'd say maybe the data suggests it doesn't matter.  If it did, every NFL team would prioritize signing a Josh McCown of their own to mentor their young QB.  It really doesn't seem to be a big deal in NFL circles, so why should it be a big deal to us armchair GM's?  

Great! You cherry picked some failures at QB to argue against an assertion I didn't make. 

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Great! You just made an argument against an assertion that I did not make. Care to argue against any other assertions that I am not making?

 

 

  57 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

There is a reason why the overwhelming majority of teams have a veteran back up for their young QB. I'm going to side with NFL coaches on this one. 

 

False statement, false assertion.

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Great! You cherry picked some failures at QB to argue against an assertion I didn't make. 

Cherry picked?  I have many more.  That's not cherry picking.  Want me to include those?

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Cherry picked?  I have many more.  That's not cherry picking.  Want me to include those?

Yes. Cherry picked. If you want to keep on providing examples, that's fine, but whose mind are you trying to change? I'm not arguing that the Jets need to sign a veteran back up. I'm not quite sure what outcome you're looking for out of this debate. 

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Yes. Cherry picked. If you want to keep on providing examples, that's fine, but whose mind are you trying to change? I'm not arguing that the Jets need to sign a veteran back up. I'm not quite sure what outcome you're looking for out of this debate. 

It's not cherry picking if its a trend.  And I'm not sure what you were hoping to get out of it either, since you made the false statement that the "overwhelming majority" of coaches pair their young QB's with a veteran backup, and now seem to be moving the goalposts of your own argument.  

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

  57 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

There is a reason why the overwhelming majority of teams have a veteran back up for their young QB. I'm going to side with NFL coaches on this one. 

 

False statement, false assertion.

2020 young starters

Lamar Jackson - RGIII 

Josh Allen - Matt Barkley / Now Mitch Trubinsky

Sam Darnold - Joe Flacco

Patrick Mahomes - Chad Henne

Baker Mayfield - Case Keenum

Kyler Murray - Andy Lee (Not a veteran)

Joe Burrow - Brandon Allen (Not a veteran)

Daniel Jones - Colt McCoy

Gardner Minshew - Mike Glennon

Justin Herbert - Tyrod Taylor

Dwayne Haskins - Alex Smith

Drew Lock - Jeff Driskel (Not what I would consider a veteran QB)

 

9 out of 12 young QB's have a veteran QB back up. We can argue whether or not 9 out of 12 is an overwhelming majority, but it clearly is the trend that young qb's have a veteran back up. 

 

 

 

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

14 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

It's not cherry picking if its a trend.  And I'm not sure what you were hoping to get out of it either, since you made the false statement that the "overwhelming majority" of coaches pair their young QB's with a veteran backup, and now seem to be moving the goalposts of your own argument.  

2020 young starters

Lamar Jackson - RGIII 

Josh Allen - Matt Barkley / Now Mitch Trubinsky

Sam Darnold - Joe Flacco

Patrick Mahomes - Chad Henne

Baker Mayfield - Case Keenum

Kyler Murray - Andy Lee (Not a veteran)

Joe Burrow - Brandon Allen (Not a veteran)

Daniel Jones - Colt McCoy

Gardner Minshew - Mike Glennon

Justin Herbert - Tyrod Taylor

Dwayne Haskins - Alex Smith

Drew Lock - Jeff Driskel (Not what I would consider a veteran QB)

 

9 out of 12 young QB's have a veteran QB back up. We can argue whether or not 9 out of 12 is an overwhelming majority, but it clearly is the trend that young qb's have a veteran back up. 

 

[Warfish]

43 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

You used a logical fallacy to explain why your logical fallacy wasn't a logical fallacy. 

So, have any examples of where the "QB Mentor" worked, or no?

Because there are plenty of examples where the "young backup stepped up and became a starting quality QB".

[Jetsfan80]

10 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

2020 young starters

Lamar Jackson - RGIII 

Josh Allen - Matt Barkley / Now Mitch Trubinsky

Sam Darnold - Joe Flacco

Patrick Mahomes - Chad Henne

Baker Mayfield - Case Keenum

Kyler Murray - Andy Lee (Not a veteran)

Joe Burrow - Brandon Allen (Not a veteran)

Daniel Jones - Colt McCoy

Gardner Minshew - Mike Glennon

Justin Herbert - Tyrod Taylor

Dwayne Haskins - Alex Smith

Drew Lock - Jeff Driskel (Not what I would consider a veteran QB)

 

9 out of 12 young QB's have a veteran QB back up. We can argue whether or not 9 out of 12 is an overwhelming majority, but it clearly is the trend that young qb's have a veteran back up. 

 

RGII, Matt Barkley, Mike Glennon and Mitch Trubisky are not in the category of "veteran backup mentors".  They've never had that reputation at all. 

Just playing in the league a while isn't enough to earn that title, otherwise any QB with 2+ years of experience could be called a "veteran backup", and you'd be able to include Driskel, Brandon Allen and Andy Lee on your list, too.  None of those guys are capable of helping a young QB learn the position. 

Trubisky is still a "young QB" and project himself.  He's not doing anything for Josh Allen entering year 4 of Allen's career.  Trubisky is there to learn from Allen more than the other way around, and is hopeful to demonstrate something in Buffalo's system to where he'll get a shot at starting elsewhere.  

The rest I'm fine with the classification, making it 6/12.  

To be even more critical of your argument, its hard to classify a few of these as "young QB's" any more.  Certainly, Pat Mahomes doesn't need a mentor anymore.  Josh Allen and Baker Mayfield probably don't either.   Established starters with NFL success entering year 4 are no longer "young QB's".  When they were in years 1 and 2 of their careers, and possibly year 3, I could give that to you.  But an elite young QB or a QB in year 4 simply doesn't need mentorship any longer.

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

1 minute ago, Warfish said:

So, have any examples of where the "QB Mentor" worked, or no?

Because there are plenty of examples where the "young backup stepped up and became a starting quality QB".

Again, for the third or fourth time, I am not making the assertion that a veteran back up is necessary. The only soft assertion I am going to make is that a veteran QB could help a young QB develop. You would be better served to argue against someone who has a hard stance on the "need" for a veteran back up. Like I have previously stated, a QB is going to be good or he is not, regardless of who is backing him up. 

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

There is a reason why the overwhelming majority of teams have a veteran back up for their young QB. I'm going to side with NFL coaches on this one. 

So lets see.....

Appeal to Tradition (argumentum ad antiquitatem) - Believing something is right just because it’s been done/been around for a really long time.

Ad Populum (appeal to widespread belief, bandwagon argument, appeal to the majority, appeal to the people) - Thinking an argument must be true because it’s popular or because a majority or many people believe it to be so.

Appeal to Authority - (argumentum ad verecundiam) - Believing just because an authority or “expert” believes something than it must be true.

Did you mention something something logical fallacies?

 

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

RGII, Matt Barkley, Mike Glennon and Mitch Trubisky are not in the category of "veteran backup mentors".  They've never had that reputation at all. 

Now who is moving the goal posts? These QB's are 100% veteran QBs. 

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

Just now, Warfish said:

So lets see.....

Appeal to Tradition (argumentum ad antiquitatem) - Believing something is right just because it’s been done/been around for a really long time.

Ad Populum (appeal to widespread belief, bandwagon argument, appeal to the majority, appeal to the people) - Thinking an argument must be true because it’s popular or because a majority or many people believe it to be so.

Appeal to Authority - (argumentum ad verecundiam) - Believing just because an authority or “expert” believes something than it must be true.

Did you mention something something logical fallacies?

 

You sure do love using logical fallacies to prove that you weren't using logical fallacies. I NEVER asserted that something was right because it has been done for a long time. I said that I will SIDE with NFL coaches. You have committed a logical fallacy fallacy. I would have to have used tradition as PROOF, which I did not. If I said "Zach Wilson NEEDS a veteran back up because it has been proven that rookies need to be mentored", you would have been correct in calling out a logical fallacy. 

There is a difference between trusting tradition and asserting it as proof or fact. Good job at looking up logical fallacies. It will help you recognize what they are in the future. 

 

[Warfish]

5 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

You sure do love using logical fallacies to prove that you weren't using logical fallacies. I NEVER asserted that something was right because it has been done for a long time. I said that I will SIDE with NFL coaches. You have committed a logical fallacy fallacy. I would have to have used tradition as PROOF, which I did not. If I said "Zach Wilson NEEDS a veteran back up because it has been proven that rookies need to be mentored", you would have been correct in calling out a logical fallacy. 

There is a difference between trusting tradition and asserting it as proof or fact. Good job at looking up logical fallacies. It will help you recognize what they are in the future. 

So you made many strong arguments for positions you weren't really making for nitpicky technical reasons that let you weasel out of the arguments you made? 

Got it.  Let me guess, Lawyer?

This was fun, but since we're almost assuredly signing some POS "Veteran" like Hoyer or Mullins to hold Wilson's cock for him at some point before the seasons starts, it's kind of a waste of our time honestly. 

I'm fine with Morgan, if others aren't, ok.  We'll see what JD does.  His opinion is the only one that matters.

 

 

[Snell41]

All we do is complain about how we have useless vets taking time from a younger prospect who we could evaluate at least by giving starts. Now we complain we do t have a useless vet. Brian Hoyer does nothing for this team’s short term or long term success. Zach Wilson isn’t bringing this team to the playoffs as a rookie, it’s completely delusional to think he is. If he gets hurt or whatever that results in him not starting I don’t want to see Hoyer or some sh*t scrub, I want to see the guy that Douglas used 4th round capital to draft.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Now who is moving the goal posts? These QB's are 100% veteran QBs. 

Not veteran QB's you'd want mentoring a young QB, which is what this whole stupid argument is all about in the first place.  Mitchell Trubisky isn't doing sh*t for Josh Allen.  Nor is RGIII doing anything for Lamar Jackson.

The last time Mike Glennon was signed by a team and then they drafted a QB, he pitched a hissy fit.  That's not a veteran mentor.  That's just a veteran who you hope can win a game or 2 if the young starter gets hurt.  Very different from what you're talking about regarding a veteran mentor, on the level of Josh McCown. 

Chase Daniel is a vet mentor.  Alex Smith is a vet mentor.  Vet mentors are guys who know their role.  They know they're a QB2 there to help a young QB along, not to try to steal his job.  

[Jetsfan80]

And meanwhile, @TheNuuFaaolaExperience, you didn't explain why a guy like Pat Mahomes, Josh Allen or Baker Mayfield still need a veteran mentor, or even did in 2020.

We're talking about a rookie QB here and you're throwing in established veterans, one of which is already potentially on a GOAT path.  Come on now.