Are we really going to start the season with zero pro experience at the QB spot?

[STLuLu]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Sam Darnold sucks. 

If that was the case then Darnold was the problem not Gase. Then why fire Gase? And if you say they both sucked then why not get rid of them both at the same time instead of playing this "Keep Darnold or draft Wilson" game?

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, STLuLu said:

If that was the case then Darnold was the problem not Gase. Then why fire Gase? And if you say they both sucked then why not get rid of them both at the same time instead of playing this "Keep Darnold or draft Wilson" game?

Yes.  They both suck.  Any other perspective requires an awful lot of mental gymnastics.  We've played that game endlessly on JN.  It's over.  

[UntouchableCrew]

3 minutes ago, STLuLu said:

We certainly will see how good or how poor Douglas' assessment skills are in week one when Wilson and Darnold go head-to-head. There won't be any speculations afterwards...just facts. Hopefully Wilson and the Jets come out on top, but it's possible Darnold can be the QB we all hoped he could've been while he was here.

So if Darnold -- making his 39th career start -- has a better statistical performance than a rookie making his very first... That to you means we made a mistake?

[Warfish]

15 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

So if Darnold -- making his 39th career start -- has a better statistical performance than a rookie making his very first... That to you means we made a mistake?

While factoring in the different systems, schemes, supporting players, etc.....

......and taking more than one game in to account, lol......

.......yes, actually!  

I would expect that Wilson in 2021 should produce better than Darnold in 2021.  

I don't think that's an unrealistic standard to set.  So what if Darnold has more starts, if more starts meant better, we'd all be starting Fitzpatrick or McCown week 1, lol.

If we didn't think Wilson would be better and produce more than Darnold, we would have just kept Darnold.

2021 is the first test of that. 

Failing to be better than the guy we dumped as a bust would not be a positive initial indication.

Why set artificially low standards?  Why NOT expect Wilson to be better than the guy he displaced?

[UntouchableCrew]

7 minutes ago, Warfish said:

While factoring in the different systems, schemes, supporting players, etc.....

......and taking more than one game in to account, lol......

.......yes, actually!  

I would expect that Wilson in 2021 should produce better than Darnold in 2021.  

I don't think that's an unrealistic standard to set.  So what if Darnold has more starts, if more starts meant better, we'd all be starting Fitzpatrick or McCown week 1, lol.

If we didn't think Wilson would be better and produce more than Darnold, we would have just kept Darnold.

2021 is the first test of that. 

Failing to be better than the guy we dumped as a bust would not be a positive initial indication.

Why set artificially low standards?  Why NOT expect Wilson to be better than the guy he displaced?

1) We aren't arguing 2021 stats for each. We're arguing Week 1 stats for each, as the previous poster indicated.

2) Even if Darnold outperforms Wilson in 2021 -- far from an ideal scenario -- I would still very much not consider that "proof" (as the other poster suggested a Week 1 result would) that Darnold is the better player. Clearly if statistical performance = "proof" we would have moved on from Darnold a few years ago.

3) I expect Wilson to outperform Darnold in 2021 and will be disappointed if he doesn't.

[Warfish]

Just now, UntouchableCrew said:

1) We aren't arguing 2021 stats for each. We're arguing Week 1 stats for each, as the previous poster indicated.

1 week never means anything taken alone.  Too small a sample size, I think we'd agree. 

Just now, UntouchableCrew said:

2) Even if Darnold outperforms Wilson in 2021 -- far from an ideal scenario -- I would still very much not consider that "proof" (as the other poster suggested a Week 1 result would) that Darnold is the better player. Clearly if statistical performance = "proof" we would have moved on from Darnold a few years ago.

It wouldn't be, as I said, it's be an initial indicator. 

A first test that Wilson will have failed and/or that Darnold will have succeeded beyond JD or Jets Fans expectations.

Just now, UntouchableCrew said:

3) I expect Wilson to outperform Darnold in 2021 and will be disappointed if he doesn't.

Me too.

[#27TheDominator]

1 hour ago, STLuLu said:

If that was the case then Darnold was the problem not Gase. Then why fire Gase? And if you say they both sucked then why not get rid of them both at the same time instead of playing this "Keep Darnold or draft Wilson" game?

Because if we didn't play some variation of the "Keep Darnold or draft Wilson" game, we would not have gotten a 6th in 2021 and 2nd and 4th in 2022?  That seems to be the likely reason.  Besides, they traded Darnold almost a full month before the draft.  Did you expect them to trade him in season? 

[STLuLu]

37 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

So if Darnold -- making his 39th career start -- has a better statistical performance than a rookie making his very first... That to you means we made a mistake?

Now that Darnold is gone, you wanna use his experience as a factor to why he will have a better proformace than Wilson? When he was here, people used Darnold's 38 games started as evidence to why he sucked. If his experience makes him better than a rookie, then it would have made sense to have kept him. But if his experience doesn't make a difference and he sucks either, why ask that question?

[STLuLu]

10 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Because if we didn't play some variation of the "Keep Darnold or draft Wilson" game, we would not have gotten a 6th in 2021 and 2nd and 4th in 2022?  That seems to be the likely reason.  Besides, they traded Darnold almost a full month before the draft.  Did you expect them to trade him in season? 

But according to you Darnold bashers, he sucks. So why would you have an expectation to get draft picks for someone who sucks? You would just cut him just to rid yourself of that headache. Since some did give up multiple picks to get him, he must not suck that bad.

[STLuLu]

On 5/23/2021 at 6:01 AM, k-met57 said:

no doubt in my mind we will pick someone up...but who is out there? if i had to guess, we are going to wait out the cuts. for me guys like Foles, and Minshew are going to come available sooner rather than later.

Maybe Foles, but not Minshew. He's decent enough not to get cut.

[UntouchableCrew]

23 minutes ago, STLuLu said:

Now that Darnold is gone, you wanna use his experience as a factor to why he will have a better proformace than Wilson? When he was here, people used Darnold's 38 games started as evidence to why he sucked. If his experience makes him better than a rookie, then it would have made sense to have kept him. But if his experience doesn't make a difference and he sucks either, why ask that question?

What, lol?

Experience should help you improve. This is the basis for both points.

Having significantly more experience than Wilson should be an advantage for Darnold relative to Wilson. People didn't argue Darnold sucked because he'd started 38 games. They argued that the fact that he still sucked, and in fact regressed despite starting 38 games was the reason it was time to move on.

[Jetsfan80]

37 minutes ago, STLuLu said:

But according to you Darnold bashers, he sucks. So why would you have an expectation to get draft picks for someone who sucks? You would just cut him just to rid yourself of that headache. Since some did give up multiple picks to get him, he must not suck that bad.

Darnold bashers, lmao.  It's not "bashing Darnold" to suggest he sucks.  All empirical evidence available suggests he sucks.  It just....is.  Which makes you a Darnold apologizer and the rest of us realists.

Your logic is tremendously bad.  Teams give up picks for bad players all the time.  They just don't realize how bad the player is until they see them play, up close, in their team's uniform.  The Panthers trading a high pick and change for Darnold, and handing him a $20M 5th year option in the process, merely suggests to me that their evaluation of Darnold is flawed.  It's not going to pan out and they're going to have severe buyer's remorse.  What then?  More excuses?

[UntouchableCrew]

29 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Your logic is tremendously bad.  Teams give up picks for bad players all the time.  They just don't realize how bad the player is until they see them play, up close, in their team's uniform.  The Panthers trading a high pick and change for Darnold, and handing him a $20M 5th year option in the process, merely suggests to me that their evaluation of Darnold is flawed.  It's not going to pan out and they're going to have severe buyer's remorse.  What then?  More excuses?

I mean, literally a year ago the Panthers gave Teddy Bridgewater a 3 year $63mm contract. The fact that they were willing to do that doesn't say much for their QB evaluation, either.

Maybe the Panthers, like many teams who don't have a QB, are desperate and sub-par at evaluating the position. As Jets fans we should know a bit about that ourselves...

[Klecko73isGod]

SHOTGUN IT, BABY!

[#27TheDominator]

1 hour ago, STLuLu said:

But according to you Darnold bashers, he sucks. So why would you have an expectation to get draft picks for someone who sucks? You would just cut him just to rid yourself of that headache. Since some did give up multiple picks to get him, he must not suck that bad.

I'm a Darnold basher?   You answered your own question.  Someone did give up multiple picks, so they would be idiots to cut him.  What was going to make him a headache?  That he sucks?  Plenty of guys suck without being headaches.  The bottom of every roster for instance.  If you think that giving up picks means the guy didn't suck, consider that the Raiders gave up a conditional pick for Hackenberg.  Does anybody think that Rick Mirer doesn't suck?  The Bears gave up #11 overall for him and a 4th.  Then everybody's genius, that fat ****, traded a 4th for him. Teams trade for sh*tty players all the time.  We weren't supposed to take advantage of that? 

I'm not sure how much Darnold sucks, but we weren't going to find out before we'd have to be paying him $25M per.  I am not in favor of that and think the smart move (for everybody) was to move on.

[Jetsfan80]

7 hours ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I mean, literally a year ago the Panthers gave Teddy Bridgewater a 3 year $63mm contract. The fact that they were willing to do that doesn't say much for their QB evaluation, either.

Maybe the Panthers, like many teams who don't have a QB, are desperate and sub-par at evaluating the position. As Jets fans we should know a bit about that ourselves...

And they seem very averse to finding a QB in the draft under this regime.  They could have ended up with Fields but instead opted for the veteran route.  

[Albaniajet]

9 hours ago, STLuLu said:

If that was the case then Darnold was the problem not Gase. Then why fire Gase? And if you say they both sucked then why not get rid of them both at the same time instead of playing this "Keep Darnold or draft Wilson" game?

Fair point.  I’m looking forward to Gase getting another chance to show off his incredible play calling and motivational skills

[STLuLu]

9 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Darnold bashers, lmao.  It's not "bashing Darnold" to suggest he sucks.  All empirical evidence available suggests he sucks.  It just....is.  Which makes you a Darnold apologizer and the rest of us realists.

Your logic is tremendously bad.  Teams give up picks for bad players all the time.  They just don't realize how bad the player is until they see them play, up close, in their team's uniform.  The Panthers trading a high pick and change for Darnold, and handing him a $20M 5th year option in the process, merely suggests to me that their evaluation of Darnold is flawed.  It's not going to pan out and they're going to have severe buyer's remorse.  What then?  More excuses?

What's wrong bro? Darnold lost you a lot of money on bets? You have no logic kinda like a woman who only gets into relationships  with abusive men.

[Jetsfan80]

10 hours ago, STLuLu said:

What's wrong bro? Darnold lost you a lot of money on bets? You have no logic kinda like a woman who only gets into relationships  with abusive men.

Just sick and tired of sh*t QBs for this franchise and people defending them when it’s clear they’re sh*t.  Had high hopes for Darnold and he ended up the worst QB in the league. Just like Sanchez and Geno Smith before him.

And since we have Carolina’s 2nd and 4th rounders in 2022, it also irks me that quite a few Jets fans are rooting for his success next season.  That desired outcome, if it happened, directly hurts the Jets.

I want Carolina to be the 2nd worst team in the league next season behind Seattle, and Darnold will of course play a huge role in getting them there. 

[MichaelScott]

Well I REALLY hope that isn't the plan. I know some dismiss the whole "Vet QB mentorship" concept, but I genuinely believe in it and think it's a really important tool for a rookie QB. 

Sam's first year, he couldn't stop talking about how much McCown was helping him and it wasn't like it was always promoted questions. Sam brought him up ALL the time. There is a reason why teams with a rookie QB still jump to sign Fitzpatrick and I can promise you that it's not motivated 1st by his ability to win. 

I've read and watched countless articles, interviews and videos on Zach since the offseason began and the thing that's brought up universally is that this kid lives and breathes football and is trying to learn 24/7/365. This kid doesn't take time off of football. When he isn't practicing he watches film. His college coach described film study habits of his that a lot of NFL pros don't have the discipline for. His college coach said that, even his sophomore year he was injured, Zach would call him multiple times every single day to ask a question or talk about a specific play he just watched Pat Mahomes run and now wants to break down with someone. 

You CANT tell me that a veteran QB wouldn't be an asset for this this kid! I guarantee you it would. He has the personality where he is going to make use of every single resource available to him. If they like Morgan, tbh I don't care if the vet ends up being the 3rd guy that doesn't dress on Sundays. He just NEEDS to be on this team, imo. Teams usually don't have only 2 QBs on the 53 anyway and I could care less about spending 5-10mil this year on a 1 year contract. Just get some experience in the QB room with him!! I've been yelling for them to sign a vet since before the draft. I don't know who that guy will be at this point, but it needs to be someone!!

Honestly I wish we could hire Pennington to be Zach's room mate for camp! That pillow talk could produce some great things for Zack... Like, on the field I mean ?

[Jetsfan80]

40 minutes ago, MichaelScott said:

Sam's first year, he couldn't stop talking about how much McCown was helping him and it wasn't like it was always promoted questions. Sam brought him up ALL the time.

And then what happened?

[MichaelScott]

10 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

And then what happened?

Whoa whoa whoa, don't go turning this into a Sam thread lmao You should know I'm on your side with that one. 

But to answer your question, it was probably Sam's 1st and only remotely promising season lol. Anyway, my point is I don't think what Sam ended up being here in anyway disproves vet mentorship being important/helpful. I did my best to explain why I think it would be particularly beneficial for Zack. 

 

... Besides, we all know Gase and the Oline caused all Sam's problems. If we hadn't hired Gase and got Sam even one legitimate weapon, McCown woulda had that kid being a top 5 QB by year 2. Just like he'll now be in Carolina

???

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, MichaelScott said:

Whoa whoa whoa, don't go turning this into a Sam thread lmao You should know I'm on your side with that one. 

But to answer your question, it was probably Sam's 1st and only promising season lol. Anyway, my point is I don't think what Sam ended up being here in anyway disproves vet mentorship being important/helpful. I did my best to explain why I think it would be particularly beneficial for Zack. 

 

... Besides, we all know Gase and the Oline caused all Sam's problems. If we hadn't hired Gase and got Sam even one legitimate weapon, McCown woulda had that kid being a top 5 QB by year 2. Just like he'll now be in Carolina

???

Fair enough good sir.  But McCown, who I like, is the archetype when it comes to veteran mentor backup QBs.  And even he couldn’t save Darnold from being, statistically, the worst starting QB in the league.

My suggestion would be to utilize an alternative example if you’re trying to make the case FOR signing a veteran.  

[SAM SAM HE'S OUR MAN]

On 5/23/2021 at 4:11 AM, Bruce Harper said:

 

I am super excited to see Zach play, especially with this improved OL and WR group, but isn’t it a bit nuts that not one of our QBs has ever started an NFL game?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

 

The JET WAY

[MichaelScott]

48 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Fair enough good sir.  But McCown, who I like, is the archetype when it comes to veteran mentor backup QBs.  And even he couldn’t save Darnold from being, statistically, the worst starting QB in the league.

My suggestion would be to utilize an alternative example if you’re trying to make the case FOR signing a veteran.  

In my opinion (take Sam out of it) McCown himself still fits the roll of the type of vet I feel is a benefit for a young QB. I would have loved for the Jets to bring him back as an asst. coach (I think Houston did). 

There isn't really any concrete proof I can point at to support my opinion. Mentorship is such a qualitative thing, it's hard to measure something like that. I just really believe it's beneficial. You hear rookies talk about the "old guy" on the roster helping them all the time. Specifically, with Zachs personality and the way he is always learning, I think it would be really helpful for him.

If they like Morgan go into the season with only 2 QBs on the roster, I would think it's a mistake but it is what it is. ( I think it's pretty uncommon for a team to only have 2 on the 53, no?) However, If they have 3 QBs and keep White, I'd be pissed. There is no way a vet QB shouldn't be on this team when Mike White has a roster spot. 

Edit: also, I don't believe that a vet mentor, regardless if it's McCown, Fitz or Peyton Manning is going to make a bad QB and good QB (applicable to Sam's situation, imo). But I do think a vet can help a good QB possibly develop quicker or at the very least, help them better navigate the adjustment during their rookie season. If you're starting a rookie day 1 (I've said before I'd be good with Zach sitting part of the season) I do believe a vet is a helpful extra resource to the kid when you're tossing him in the deep end day 1. 

Zach being a good QB is ultimately going to come down to Zach. But just like coaching, I think a vet can play a part in helping them get to the player they can be.

If Fitz was available right now would you be against signing him? I understand this goes back to the point that there isn't much available right now for vet QBs. I'm asking if you'd see any benefit to someone like Fitz being on the roster, completely outside of ability to win games if he ended up playing?

[Sperm Edwards]

I don’t care if any backup QBs are big brothers or father figures or mentors or mentos. But I also don’t subscribe to the idea that the team’s record in the starter’s absence is the only reason to sign an upgrade at QB2. 

I’d like the team to still be assessing the rest of the players it has, including young offensive weapons like a a couple rookie + 2nd yr WRs and a rookie RB and maybe a rookie TE, too.

If the coaches feel that Wilson or White can credibly run the full offense - whether the team ultimately wins or loses their starts, though I prefer the former - that’d be great. They’re cheap and they’re already here.

If that assessment for upwards of 4 other starters somewhat (or largely) goes out the window with each game Wilson misses, like it did when Luke Falk filled in, then they should sign someone else. 

[Larz]

If shades and ankle socks stays in California cap’n or white will get starter reps tomorrow. 
 

if they struggle JD might reach out to some teams or FAs

[Biggs]

On 7/26/2021 at 3:31 PM, STLuLu said:

But according to you Darnold bashers, he sucks. So why would you have an expectation to get draft picks for someone who sucks? You would just cut him just to rid yourself of that headache. Since some did give up multiple picks to get him, he must not suck that bad.

The same team that gave Teddy Bridgewater a three year deal last year for serious starter money.  

[MichaelScott]

 

Really good listen on state of current Jets QB situation. Sorry I couldn't make the clip longer 

@Jetsfan80

[STLuLu]

On 7/27/2021 at 4:27 AM, Jetsfan80 said:

Just sick and tired of sh*t QBs for this franchise and people defending them when it’s clear they’re sh*t.  Had high hopes for Darnold and he ended up the worst QB in the league. Just like Sanchez and Geno Smith before him.

And since we have Carolina’s 2nd and 4th rounders in 2022, it also irks me that quite a few Jets fans are rooting for his success next season.  That desired outcome, if it happened, directly hurts the Jets.

I want Carolina to be the 2nd worst team in the league next season behind Seattle, and Darnold will of course play a huge role in getting them there. 

I feel you on that. But if Darnold plays well and the Panthers come in second place in that divison, it could very well backfire on Douglas espeacially if Wilson plays poorly.

I know Darnorld is the scapegoat for the Jets' woes over the past few years, but he shouldn't take all the blame. Douglas did him no favors. In fact, it was almost like he sabotaged him. The Jets' record was 7-9 when Douglas took over with Mac's roster but went 4-12 the next year when he stared tweeking the roster. So, in other words, the team had digressed under him. I am high on his hiring of Robert Saleh so hopefully the digression ends under his coaching and leadership.

[PepPep]

On 7/26/2021 at 12:10 PM, UntouchableCrew said:

1) We aren't arguing 2021 stats for each. We're arguing Week 1 stats for each, as the previous poster indicated.

2) Even if Darnold outperforms Wilson in 2021 -- far from an ideal scenario -- I would still very much not consider that "proof" (as the other poster suggested a Week 1 result would) that Darnold is the better player. Clearly if statistical performance = "proof" we would have moved on from Darnold a few years ago.

3) I expect Wilson to outperform Darnold in 2021 and will be disappointed if he doesn't.

Its also relative what 'outperforms' means. If Darnold has a better game and puts up better numbers but looks average and Wilson puts up worse numbers but does so in spectacular fashion, guess what, I'm still hitching my wagon to Wilson being the better QB this season and down the road. 

[kevinc855]

It's an extreme risk JD is taking here....

There is no more Gase or Sam to blame...

I just felt what was wrong with buying a cheap insurance ticket and giving Zach a little of a QB battle and a supporting senior role. We also have to accept the hard reality Zach plays poorly. Do we just let him die out on the vine each game? 

Head scratching decision to me. He MUST really believe in Zach. I hope hes right for everyones sake. 

[JohnnyLV]

1 minute ago, kevinc855 said:

It's an extreme risk JD is taking here....

There is no more Gase or Sam to blame...

I just felt what was wrong with buying a cheap insurance ticket and giving Zach a little of a QB battle and a supporting senior role. We also have to accept the hard reality Zach plays poorly. Do we just let him die out on the vine each game? 

Head scratching decision to me. He MUST really believe in Zach. I hope hes right for everyones sake. 

I have to admit I do not understand the QB competition with a veteran angle for Zach. Like at all.

QBs taken #2 play. Period. 

The way for a rookie to learn is repetition and playing not sensei advice from a journeyman backup.

Reps are like gold. So you would prefer to have get more reps in the name of a fake competition. Makes no sense.

Be all in on your QB and develop his as much as you can.

Wilson also has Beck and Young for advice.

Jets fans are obsessed with the backup QB spot and I don't get it.

All a vet QB does is make your QB worse opening day.

Now if we had a vet starting level QB towards the end of his career then the conversation is completely different.

[DoubleDown]

Let's see how the rest of the summer goes, but I always felt it was foolish to not have a viable vet on the roster who can start the season.

The Jets are essentially forced to start Wilson from Day 1 whether he is ready or not.

[kevinc855]

39 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

I have to admit I do not understand the QB competition with a veteran angle for Zach. Like at all.

QBs taken #2 play. Period. 

The way for a rookie to learn is repetition and playing not sensei advice from a journeyman backup.

Reps are like gold. So you would prefer to have get more reps in the name of a fake competition. Makes no sense.

Be all in on your QB and develop his as much as you can.

Wilson also has Beck and Young for advice.

Jets fans are obsessed with the backup QB spot and I don't get it.

All a vet QB does is make your QB worse opening day.

Now if we had a vet starting level QB towards the end of his career then the conversation is completely different.

evidence of making a QB worse off by having a senior QB doesnt bare out

Actually those who sit a year have the most success 

Im not even asking for that, but at least some competition